Osiris - A real Pharaoh?

[obscurepanda]

Ra is the sun god.

When comparative religion is done,osiris and Isis,are the equivalents of shiva and parvati ,in the Hindu religion .

Ergo ,ganesh is equivalent to horus.

It's been postulated ,the story of Isis ,osiris and Horus ,are the basis of many religions,including Christianity.

Horus= Christ .

I have only ever heard this put forth directly ,except from egyptologists ,but horus was actually a carpenter .

Ah, the Jesus/Horus comparison. It's all crap. The two figures are incredibly dissimilar. Additionally, the similarities 'twixt Osiris/Shiva and Isis/Parvati stops at their position in the hierarchy of gods. The figures share precious little in common, and if actual comparative religious work is done, one notes that Shiva is closer to Atun (kinda, but still a stretch). In other words, there is a reason Egyptologists never say that stuff.

[kmt_sesh]

"late" ? He died over a century ago! (1911)

I'd never heard of this guy or this particular book, so I looked up his bio on Wiki and download the book to read relevant passages. Part of it can be chalked up to the fact Densusianu was writing over a century ago and was not aware of the more accurate and current historical research we take for granted. But a lot of it seems, based on the author's bio, that he was simply a nationalistic patriot and perhaps more than a bit daft. The sections I read on Osiris in the Danube region are, for example, utterly lacking in any historical veracity.

Ah, the Jesus/Horus comparison. It's all crap. The two figures are incredibly dissimilar. Additionally, the similarities 'twixt Osiris/Shiva and Isis/Parvati stops at their position in the hierarchy of gods. The figures share precious little in common, and if actual comparative religious work is done, one notes that Shiva is closer to Atun (kinda, but still a stretch). In other words, there is a reason Egyptologists never say that stuff.

I couldn't agree more with this assessment. One sees a lot of comparisons between Horus and Christ, expecially in the circles of alternative writers, but such comparisons don't survive scrutiny. This isn't to say ancient peoples and their religions didn't influence other ancient peoples, because they did, but some modern folks take it to painful extremes.

[atalante]

Egypt did not display perfectly linear development of religious thought patterns.

In regards to Osiris, his symbols (crook and flail, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crook_and_flail ) represented what, today, is called the "neolithic package" of "crops and domesticated animals". And in particular, Osiris was famed for introducing barley into Egypt. Barley belongs in the "neolithic package".

In Heliopolitan (Ennead) cosmology, it is said that Osiris took over Egypt from the primitive "goose god", Geb. (Notably, a goose is not part of what, today, is called the neolithic package.)

The ancient Egyptians somehow convinced themselves that Osiris's "barley" (and the neolithic package of domesticated crops and animals) had originated in Egypt. For example, Egyptian myths claimed that Osiris left Isis in charge of Egypt -- while Osiris toured around the world, spreading a neolithic lifestyle around the world.

But this simple-minded Egyptian theme about Osiris started being shaken to its roots when artisans (from across the Levant) were imported to work on Egyptian king Amenemhet III's huge construction projects.

At about that time of importing foreign laborers, a "Syrian homeland of natural-growing barley" would have started to make a mark on Egyptian consciousness. Not only does barley grow wild near Syria -- but also, barley is called by a word that sounds like Osir in Semitic languages (which are spoken in a wide region around Syria).

Apparently, understanding that a natural homeland for barley had been in-or-near Syria rocked the foundations of Egypt's Osiris religion. From a chronological standpoint, this set the stage for Egypt's Second Intermediate Period -- when it became acceptable in the Nile Delta to believe that Osiris and his brother Set had originated outside Egypt (i.e. near Syria). Some such viewpoint was held among people whom Egypt called Hyksos.

After the Hyksos were driven out of Egypt -- Set became regarded as an evil being, but Osiris religion was revived in Egypt.

Then another innovation occurred in Egyptian religious outlooks (to counterbalance northern influences). In the 18th dynasty, a primitive Egyptian deity Min (and Thebes's god Amon) became identified with a pinnacle at Gebel Barkal, in the far south of Nubia. http://www.jebelbarkal.org/

[Kenemet]

Egypt did not display perfectly linear development of religious thought patterns.

Not being sarcastic, but speaking as an anthropologist, I'm not sure what you mean by "linear development of religious thought patterns." Could you define that phrase for me?

But this simple-minded Egyptian theme about Osiris started being shaken to its roots when artisans (from across the Levant) were imported to work on Egyptian king Amenemhet III's huge construction projects.

Could you give me a source for this? As far as I know, he didn't import that many artisans from other countries, and any slaves brought back were usually put to work in the mines. Slavery was not terribly common in Egypt (compared to Greece and Rome); military commanders might have a number of household slaves that they captured but the common man didn't. Few were used in royal workshops -- more likely they were sent to quarries.

This practice had been going on for at least a thousand years, according to my sources.

At about that time of importing foreign laborers, a "Syrian homeland of natural-growing barley" would have started to make a mark on Egyptian consciousness. Not only does barley grow wild near Syria -- but also, barley is called by a word that sounds like Osir in Semitic languages (which are spoken in a wide region around Syria).

I think you should qualify that as "written" rather than spoken because we don't know how either of the ancient languages really sounded. The "shocked about language" also doesn't seem to make much sense since they'd been trading with that area since early Dynastic times and perhaps before.

Apparently, understanding that a natural homeland for barley had been in-or-near Syria rocked the foundations of Egypt's Osiris religion.

How would they know that? To them, it would have simply been "a belief by those guys over there, who really don't matter." When was the last time YOU were rocked by any of the beliefs of Baha'i or the Krishans?

From a chronological standpoint, this set the stage for Egypt's Second Intermediate Period -- when it became acceptable in the Nile Delta to believe that Osiris and his brother Set had originated outside Egypt (i.e. near Syria). Some such viewpoint was held among people whom Egypt called Hyksos.

After the Hyksos were driven out of Egypt -- Set became regarded as an evil being, but Osiris religion was revived in Egypt.

Do you have a source for this? I find nothing to support it in the material I have read.

[atalante]

[/size]

....Could you give me a source for this? As far as I know, he [Amenemhet III] didn't import that many artisans from other countries, and any slaves brought back were usually put to work in the mines. Slavery was not terribly common in Egypt (compared to Greece and Rome); military commanders might have a number of household slaves that they captured but the common man didn't. Few were used in royal workshops -- more likely they were sent to quarries.

This practice had been going on for at least a thousand years, according to my sources.

I think you should qualify that as "written" rather than spoken because we don't know how either of the ancient languages really sounded. The "shocked about language" also doesn't seem to make much sense since they'd been trading with that area since early Dynastic times and perhaps before.

How would they know that? To them, it would have simply been "a belief by those guys over there, who really don't matter." When was the last time YOU were rocked by any of the beliefs of Baha'i or the Krishans?

Do you have a source for this? I find nothing to support it in the material I have read.

Kenemet,

The history of neolithic agriculture started to be understood around 1950, when Kathleen Kenyon started finding (and reporting) PPNA and PPNB excavation levels at Jericho.

Since that starting point, a large amount of excavation work has pieced together how PPNA and PPNB cultures, throughout the Levant, gradually domesticated enough variety of food crops (and domesticated animals) to constitute a generally balanced human diet -- so human bodies could thrive from purely agricultural lifestyles. As soon as this "neolithic package" had been assembled by PPN A and PPN B cultures, ca. 9000-7000 BCE -- agricultural lifestyles spread rapidly across huge regions.

Now we can see that ancient Egypt had thoroughly messed up its views about the history of worldwide agriculture.

Osiris represented the neolithic revolution, in Egyptian viewpoints (as I posted previously). But it was wrong to propose (as ancient Egyptian viewpoints did) that neolithic lifestyles had originated in Egypt, before spreading worldwide. The only thing Egypt added to the "neolithic package" was domesticated donkeys.

In regard to Amenemhet III and his need for imported workers (who were not slaves):

Amenemhet III started huge construction projects that were so grandiose they were still unfinished when he died. He left no male heir so his daughter tried to become a king/regent, and thus his daughter tried to prolong the 12th Dynasty. However, to complete the grandiose projects of Amenemhet III, his vizir seized power -- and became king by "marrying" Amenemhet III's daughter.

In effect, the death of Amenemhet III (without a male heir) created a power schism that ended Dynasty 12; it also started Dynasty 13 in the 2nd Intermediate Period. Part of Egypt accepted Amenemhet III's daughter as the rightful ruler of Egypt, but a different faction followed the vizir (who adopted the name Amenemhet IV) and the vizir's sons (who were born through a different wife).

Quote about Amenemhet III's imported labor (and also about the earliest inscription in a Semitic language), from:

http://members.bib-a...02&ArticleID=06

More than a century later, however, Egyptian policy toward the Asiatics changed. Instead of trying to prevent them from coming in, the Egyptians cultivated close relations with strong Canaanite city-states on the Mediterranean coast and allowed select Asiatic populations to settle in the eastern Delta. The last of the great pharaohs of the XIIth Dynasty, Amenemhet III (c. 1853–1808 B.C.E.) and Amenemhet IV (c. 1808–1799 B.C.E.), even established a new town for them.

The XIIth Dynasty was followed by the much weaker XIIIth Dynasty. Thousands of immigrants from Syria, Lebanon and Canaan then flooded into the eastern Delta, creating the large Canaanite settlement that would become Avaris (modern Tell el-Daba), the capital of the famous Hyksos.

......The alphabet was invented in this way by Canaanites at Serabit in the Middle Bronze Age, in the middle of the 19th century B.C.E., probably during the reign of Amenemhet III of the XIIth Dynasty.

endquote

Plutarch wrote the name Osiris in Greek, so we can determine (from Plutarch's writing) how to pronounce this name. The Greek word-ending (-is) is peculiar to Greek. Therefore the Egyptian pronunciation should have been close to the remainder of Plutarch's Greek word -- Osir -- because this matches, rather closely, the way Egyptians spelled the name.

Your comment "shocked about language" makes very little sense. The stunning discovery was that barley actually grows wild, with almost no human labor, where PPNA cultures had originally domesticated barley. And then secondarily, Egyptians would have discovered that their Egyptian ancestors had even borrowed the name Osir mindlessly, from the Semitic language family where it originally meant barley; and their Egyptian ancestors had transplanted the name Osir into Egyptian society, where the name of Osir/Osiris no longer meant "barley".

quote about Egyptian names of barley, from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barley

Alongside emmer wheat, barley was a staple cereal of ancient Egypt, where it was used to make bread and beer. The general name for barley is jt (hypothetically pronounced "eat"); šma(hypothetically pronounced "SHE-ma") refers to Upper Egyptian barley and is a symbol of Upper Egypt.

endquote [/font]

Regarding Hebrew names of barley see: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/8184.htm

If you do not know about Set and the Hyksos you can benefit by reading almost any source about them.

Edited August 1, 2015 by atalante

[Kenemet]

Now we can see that ancient Egypt had thoroughly messed up its views about the history of worldwide agriculture.

As far as I know, Egypt never had a view of a worldwide agriculture.

Osiris represented the neolithic revolution, in Egyptian viewpoints (as I posted previously).

How could he possibly be that, since he first appears 4,000 to 3,000 years AFTER the neolithic revolution and there are older deities (including hints at cattle deities)?

In regard to Amenemhet III and his need for imported workers (who were not slaves):

Amenemhet III started huge construction projects that were so grandiose they were still unfinished when he died. He left no male heir so his daughter tried to become a king/regent, and thus his daughter tried to prolong the 12th Dynasty. However, to complete the grandiose projects of Amenemhet III, his vizir seized power -- and became king by "marrying" Amenemhet III's daughter.

In effect, the death of Amenemhet III (without a male heir) created a power schism that ended Dynasty 12; it also started Dynasty 13 in the 2nd Intermediate Period. Part of Egypt accepted Amenemhet III's daughter as the rightful ruler of Egypt, but a different faction followed the vizir (who adopted the name Amenemhet IV) and the vizir's sons (who were born through a different wife).

None of this answers my request for a source that he had to import a lot of foreign craftsmen to work on his projects. The records show that he used corvee labor (his own people) and did not hire or capture a lot of slaves to go work on his projects. Nor do I see evidence of the Intermediate pharaohs using imported labor.

Quote about Amenemhet III's imported labor (and also about the earliest inscription in a Semitic language), from:

http://members.bib-a...02&ArticleID=06

More than a century later, however, Egyptian policy toward the Asiatics changed. Instead of trying to prevent them from coming in, the Egyptians cultivated close relations with strong Canaanite city-states on the Mediterranean coast and allowed select Asiatic populations to settle in the eastern Delta. The last of the great pharaohs of the XIIth Dynasty, Amenemhet III (c. 1853–1808 B.C.E.) and Amenemhet IV (c. 1808–1799 B.C.E.), even established a new town for them.

You've misread the source. These are not skilled craftsmen. These are immigrants and refugees.

The stunning discovery was that barley actually grows wild, with almost no human labor, where PPNA cultures had originally domesticated barley.

This never seems to have made an impact on them, honestly.

And then secondarily, Egyptians would have discovered that their Egyptian ancestors had even borrowed the name Osir mindlessly, from the Semitic language family where it originally meant barley; and their Egyptian ancestors had transplanted the name Osir into Egyptian society, where the name of Osir/Osiris no longer meant "barley".

There wasn't much contact between the groups back in the 4th Dynasty. How could they have "mindlessly" borrowed the name? Barley to them (grains in general) was "it" and there was a specific name for "barley from the north" (mHw) and "barley from the south" (Sma). So they weren't using barley in conjunction with Osiris. In addition, their principal grain was wheat (not barley.)

If you do not know about Set and the Hyksos, you can benefit by reading almost any source about them.

I do know about Set and the Hyksos, which is why I was asking for some reference.

[kmt_sesh]

A good case for the importation of foreign labor is the site of Serabit el-Khadim. "Importation" might be the wrong word to use because it's just as possible these folks freely and willingly migrated down to that area to find work. I hate to do this, and in doing so I am not trying to promote my own blog, but several years ago I wrote an article on the origin of Proto-Sinaitic script and how it might have influenced what would eventually become our own alphabet. I quote one long paragraph from it here:

No one doubts that Canaanites were working in the turquoise mines. This is well attested in inscriptional material recovered in and around Serabit el-Khadim, a site in the southwest Sinai where the Egyptians extensively mined for turquoise as well as other ores and minerals. Proto-Sinaitic takes us back to the Egyptian Middle Kingdom, and specifically to the reigns of two Dynasty 12 kings named Amenemhat III (1842-1794 BCE) and Amenemhat IV (1798-1785 BCE). Both of these kings sent numerous expeditions to Serabit el-Khadim. It’s known that at this time Egypt was maintaining steady ties with well-established Canaanite city-states along the coastal Levant, and many Asiatics from these city-states were migrating into Egypt and settling into the eastern Delta (Goldwasser 2010: 38). Many of these Asiatics worked in the Sinai expeditions as parts of the mining teams, and they formed regular parts of the workforce at Serabit el-Khadim. They lived with and worked among Egyptians. In other words, these Canaanites were paid workers, not slaves.

Full article

I figure I'd already done the background research and had already written it, so why not use it here? Please forgive me.

So here is a well-attested case where foreigners (Canaanites) were working for Amenemhat III in Dynasty 12. These were not slaves but paid workmen. Some were ordinary laborers while others appear to have been of Canaanite upper-class. It's an interesting case study.

[The_Spartan]

i remember reading about Osiris as a king and looked it up again...

Diodorus Siculus wrote in the 1st chapter of the 1st book of Bibliotheca historica that Osiris was known as Dionysus/ Sirius/Phanetes......

The Sun and the Moon, the first of which they call'd Osiris, and the other Isis, both Names having proper Etymologies; for Osiris in the Greek Language, signifies a Thing with many Eyes, which may be very properly apply'd to the Sun darting his Rays into every Corner, and as it were with so many Eyes view∣ing and surveying the whole Land and Sea, with which agrees the Poet,

The Sun from's lofty Sphear all sees and hears.

Some also of the antient Greek Mythologists call Osiris Dionysus, and sirname him Sirius, amongst whom Eumolphus in his Bacchanal Verses,

Dionysus darts his Fiery Rays.

And Orpheus;

He's call'd Phanetes and Dionysus.

ome likewise set him forth cloath'd with the spotted Skin of a Fawn (call'd Nebris) from the variety of Stars that surround him.

Afterwards they say Saturn reign'd, and marry'd his Sister *Rhea, and that he begat of her Osiris and Isis; but others say, Jupiter and Juno, who for their great Virtues, rul'd over all the World. That of Jupiter and Juno were born Five Gods, one upon every day of the Five Egyptian† intercalary Days. The Names of these Gods are Osiris, Isis, Typhon, Apollo and Venus. That Osiris was interpreted Bacchus, and Isis plainly Ceres. That Osiris marry'd Isis, and after he came to the

Kingdom, did much, and perform'd many things for the com∣mon * Benefit and Advantage of Mankind. For he was the first that forbad Men eating one another; and at the same time Isis found out the way of making of Bread of Wheat and Barley, which before grew here and there in the Fields amongst other common Herbs and Grass, and the use of it unknown: And O∣siris teaching the way and manner of Tillage, and well ma∣nagement of the Fruits of the Earth, this change of Food became grateful; both because it was naturally sweet and delicious, and Men were thereby restrain'd from the mutual Butcheries one of another: For an evidence of this first finding out the use of these Fruits, they alledge an antient Custom amongst them: For even at this day, in the time of Harvest, the Inhabitants offer the first Fruits of the Ears of Corn, howling and wailing about the Handfuls they offer, and in∣voking this Goddess Isis: And this they do in return of due Honour to her for that Invention at the first. In some Cities also, when they celebrate the Feast of Isis in a Pompous Procession, they carry about Vessels of Wheat and Barley, in memory of the first Invention, by the care and industry of this Goddess. They say likewise, that Isis made many Laws for the good of Human Society, where∣by Men were restrain'd from lawless Force and Violence one upon another, out of fear of Punishment. And therefore Ceres was call'd by the ancient Greeks, The∣mophorus (that is) Lawgiver, being the Princess that first constituted Laws for the better Government of her People.

Osiris moreover built Thebes in Egypt, with an Hundred Gates, and call'd it * after his Mother's Name: But in following Times, it was call'd Diospolis, and Thebes; of whose first Founder not only Historians, but the Priests of Egypt themselves, are much in doubt. For some say that it was not built by Osiris, but many Years after by a King of Egypt, whose History we shall treat of hereafter in its proper place. They report likewise, that he built Two magnificent Temples, and De∣dicated them to his Parents, Jupiter and Juno; and likewise Two Golden * Altars, the greater to the great God Jupiter; the other to his Father Jupiter, who had formerly reign'd there, whom they call Ammon. That he also erected Golden Altars to other Gods, and instituted their several Rites of Worship, and ap∣pointed Priests to have the Oversight and Care of the Holy things. In the time of Osiris and Isis, Projectors and ingenious Artists were in great Honour and E∣steem; and therefore in Thebes there were then Goldsmiths and Braziers, who made Arms and Weapons for the Killing of Wild Beasts, and other Instruments for the husbanding of the Ground, and improvement of Tillage; besides Images of the Gods, and Altars in Gold. They say that Osiris was much given to Hus∣bandry, that he was the Son of Jupiter, brought up in Nisa, a Town of Arabia the Happy, near to Egypt, call'd by the Greeks Dionysus, from his Father, and the Place of his Education. * The Poet in his Hymns makes mention of Nysa, as bordering upon Egypt, where he says,

Far off from Phenice stands the Sacred Nyse,

Where Streams of Eygypt's Nile begin to rise,

On Mountain high with pleasant Woods adorn'd.

Here near unto Nyse, (they say) he found out the use of the Vine, and there planting it, was the first that drank Wine; and taught others how to plant it and use it, and to gather in their Vintage, and to keep and preserve it. Above all o∣thers, he most honoured †Hermes, one of an admirable Ingenuity, and quick Invention, in finding out what might be useful to Mankind. This Hermes was the first (as they report) that taught how to speak distinctly and articulately, and gave Names to many things that had none before. He found out Letters, and instituted the Worship of the Gods; and was the first that observ'd the Motion of the Stars, and invented Musick; and taught the manner of Wrestling; and in∣vented Arithmetick, and the Art of curious * Graving and Cutting of Statues. He first found out the Harp with Three Strings, in resemblance of the Three Seasons of the Year, causing Three several Sounds, the Treble, Base and Mean. The Treble,to represent the Summer; The Base, the Winter; and the Mean, the Spring. He was the first that taught the Greeks Eloquence; thence he's call'd Hermes, a Speaker or Interpreter. To conclude, he was Osiris's * Sacred Scribe, to whom he communicated all his Secrets, and was chiefly steer'd by his Advice in every thing. He (not Minerva, as the Greeks affirm) found out the use of the Olive-tree, for the making of Oyl. It's moreover reported, that Osiris being a Prince of a publick Spirit, and very ambitious of Glory, rais'd a great Army, with which he resolv'd to go through all parts of the World that were inhabited, and to teach Men how to plant Vines, and to sow Wheat and Barly. For he hop'd that if he could civilize Men, and take them off from their rude and Beast-like Course of Lives, by such a publick good and advantage, he should raise a Foun∣dation amongst all Mankind, for his immortal Praise and Honour, which happen'd accordingly. For not only that Age, but Posterity ever after honour'd those among the chiefest of their Gods, that first found out their proper and ordinary Food. Having therefore settl'd his Affairs in Egypt, and committed the Government of his whole Kingdom to his Wife Isis, he join'd with her Mercury, as her chief Councellor of State, because he far excell'd all others in Wisdom and Prudence. But Hercules his near Kinsman, he left General of all his Forces within his Do∣minions, a Man admir'd by all for his Valour and Strength of Body. As to those parts which lay near Phaenicia, and upon the Sea-Coasts of them, he made Busiris Lord Lieutenant, and of Ethiopia and Lybia, Anteus.

Then marching out of Egypt, he began his Expedition, taking along with him his Brother, whom the Greeks call'd Apollo. This Apollo is reported to have dis∣cover'd the Laurel-Tree, which all Dedicate especially to this God. To Osiris they attribute the finding out of the Ivy-Tree, and dedicate it to him, as the Greeks do to Bacchus: And therefore in the Egyptian Tongue, they call Ivy Osiris's Plant, which they prefer before the Vine in all their Sacrifices, because this loses its Leaves, and the other always continues fresh and green: Which Rule the An∣cients have observ'd in other Plants, that are always green, dedicating Mirtle to Venus, Laurel to Apollo, and the Olive-Tree to Pallas.

It's said, that Two of his Sons accompany'd their Father Osiris in this Expedi∣tion, one call'd Anubis, and the other Macedo, both valiant Men: Both of them wore Coats of Mail, that were extraordinary remarkable, cover'd with the Skins of such Creatures as resembled them in Stoutness and Valour. Anubis was cover'd with a Dog's, and Macedon with the Skin of a Wolf; and for this reason these Beasts are religiously ador'd by the Egyptians. He had likewise for his Companion, †Pan, whom the Egyptians have in great Veneration; for they not only set up I∣mages and Statues up and down in every Temple, but built a City in Thebides after his Name, call'd by the Inhabitants † Chemmin, which by interpretation is *Pan's City. There went along with them likewise those that were skilful in Husbandry, as Maro in the planting of Vines, and Triptolemus in sowing of Corn, and gathering in the Harvest.

Link

[Kenemet]

A good case for the importation of foreign labor is the site of Serabit el-Khadim. "Importation" might be the wrong word to use because it's just as possible these folks freely and willingly migrated down to that area to find work. I hate to do this, and in doing so I am not trying to promote my own blog, but several years ago I wrote an article on the origin of Proto-Sinaitic script and how it might have influenced what would eventually become our own alphabet. I quote one long paragraph from it here:

Full article

I figure I'd already done the background research and had already written it, so why not use it here? Please forgive me.

So here is a well-attested case where foreigners (Canaanites) were working for Amenemhat III in Dynasty 12. These were not slaves but paid workmen. Some were ordinary laborers while others appear to have been of Canaanite upper-class. It's an interesting case study.

A nice blog post -- what I was more objecting to was the idea of importing thousands of craftsmen into Egypt in such numbers that they changed the nature of Osiris and shocked the Egyptians with the idea that they weren't the first to domesticate barley.

I do know that some deities eventually become merged and that the Egyptians borrow some deities from the Levant (and vice-versa)... we haven't gotten into that aspect yet.

[Kenemet]

i remember reading about Osiris as a king and looked it up again...

Diodorus Siculus wrote in the 1st chapter of the 1st book of Bibliotheca historica that Osiris was known as Dionysus/ Sirius/Phanetes......

Link

It's kind of mind-boggling how completely wrong Diodorus was.

[atalante]

For dynastic Egypt, the origins of Osiris (as mythical father of Horus) are linked to the introduction of barley into Egypt, which occurred ca. 4000 BC.

Osiris was most closely connected with barley agriculture. But symbolically, Osiris also represented germination of any kind throughout the land -- beginning from the time when barley was introduced into Egypt, in the Naqada periods, ca 4000 BC.

While barley was spreading rapidly throughout Egypt (and becoming the major grain crop in Egypt), Hierakonpolis (Nekken) quickly became the largest city in Egypt, by 3500 BC. At that time, Hierakonpolis's population was swelled by bands of people migrating into the Nile valley from outlying areas. http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/hierakonpolis.htm

Hierakonpolis was a city whose totem was the falcon, personified by the falcon-god Horus.

Based on the barley-revolution that was taking place throughout Egypt during the Naqada periods (and the rapid growth of Horus's city Hierakonpolis) -- it is entirely fitting that Egypt eventually developed a mythology where Horus was called the "son" of (barley) Osiris.

quote about Osiris as both a barley-god and an agricultural germination god, from: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/nile_01.shtml

Osiris, however, did not return to this world but became king of the underworld. His death and revival were linked to the land's fertility. In a festival celebrated during the inundation, damp mud figures of Osiris were planted with barley, whose germination stood for the revival both of the god and of the land.

endquote

quote about bringing barley to Egypt from the place where barley was originally domesticated: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1783110/

...The earliest domesticated barley (9,500–8,400 yBP) also had two-rowed spikes; cultivation of six-rowed barley started later, with estimated dates ranging from 8,800 to 8,000 yBP (1, 11). Around 7,000–6,000 yBP, when barley was cultivated in the alluvial soils of Mesopotamia and, later, in the soils of Lower Egypt, six-rowed barley soon became dominant, replaced two-rowed barley, and established itself as the most important crop for Near Eastern Neolithic civilizations (1, 11,12).

endquote

quote about a) Egypt's INDIGENOUS MILLET; introducing barley into Egypt ca 4000 BC; and c) that barley quickly more-than-doubled the grain production in Egypt; from: http://www.berg1a.freeserve.co.uk/Java%20Out%20Home%20Page/Cereals.HTM

....Wild millet and wild sorghum (Sorghum vulgare, also referred to as Kaffir corn or durra) were indigenous to Egypt.....

[note: Geese eat millet; and geese were the symbol of Geb, the ruler of Egypt who preceeded Osiris in Heliopolitan cosmology. Today millet is only sold by pet stores and used as bird-feed. ]

In legend the cultivation of cereals was introduced into Egypt during the mythical reign of King Osiris. The myth of Osiris claims that after his death his body was dismembered and scattered throughout Egypt. This could represent the sowing or winnowing of the grain. The death and resurrection of Osiris could symbolize the annual harvest, in which the cereal is destroyed and sowing, in which the seed is buried, then a few months later the cereal returns from the dead. In mythical terms this is a resurrection and a regeneration.

Historically cereals were first cultivated in the Fayum region of Egypt (just below the Nile delta) around 5,000 B.C. This was triggered by the introduction of domesticated animals from Mesopotamia. These animals were draughted into tilling the land and threshing the corn.

Type of cereals

The main cereals grown were barley and wheat, but there is some doubt whether millet was grown in pre-dynastic Egypt as the millet found might have been wild millet. Sorghum was also cultivated and used by poorer people for bread and cakes. Originally only emmer wheat was grown but around 4,000 B.C. barley was introduced and soon accounted for about sixty percent of the corn harvest. In ancient Egypt corn referred both to barley and wheat.

[note: As stated in the previous paragraph, barley (which Osiris personified) was introduced into Egypt at 4000 BC, and quickly revolutionized Egyptian agriculture. This agricultural revolution, due to barley, occurred during the Naqada I, II and III periods of Egyptian history. ]

c) Origins of corn

The most ancient type of wheat was einkorn wheat (Triticum monococcum), which started life as a wild wheat in northwestern Turkey. This wheat became useful as a food because the chaff and grain could easily be separated. Einkorn wheat has only one grain per ear and 7 chromosomes, but is still cultivated on poor soils. After wheat was cultivated, emmer wheat (Triticum diccoccum), from Armenia and northeastern Turkey, was found to produce higher yields than einkorn, if cultivated on favourable soils. It was the emmer variety which was grown in Mesopotamia then introduced into Egypt. Unlike einkorn, cultivated emmer is double grained and has 14 chromosomes.

Emmer wheat was grown in Egypt from pre-dynastic times until common wheat (Triticum aestivum) was introduced after the Persian invasion. Common wheat originated on the Russian steppes and unlike emmer, strains of common wheat can be grown as hard wheat.

endquote

[Kenemet]

For dynastic Egypt, the origins of Osiris (as mythical father of Horus) are linked to the introduction of barley into Egypt, which occurred ca. 4000 BC.

Osiris isn't that old. He dates to about 2800 BC. The gods of grain are Neper and Nephit. Nepher's the older one, associated with barley. Osiris takes on this attribute much later. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neper_%28mythology%29

Osiris was most closely connected with barley agriculture.

MUCH later.

While barley was spreading rapidly throughout Egypt (becoming the major grain crop in Egypt),

Wheat was the main grain crop.

See Reshfam footnotes: http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/timelines/topics/harvesting_grain.htm

At that time, Hierakonpolis's population was sweld by bands of people migrating into the Nile valley from outlying areas. http://www.touregypt...erakonpolis.htm

From the Nile Valley. Hierakonpolis is about 800 miles upstream from Cairo. The settlers were bands of nomadic Egyptians in the area.

Osiris, however, did not return to this world but became king of the underworld. His death and revival were linked to the land's fertility. In a festival celebrated during the inundation, damp mud figures of Osiris were planted with barley, whose germination stood for the revival both of the god and of the land.

That's a more recent practice.

In legend the cultivation of cereals was introduced into Egypt during the mythical reign of King Osiris. The myth of Osiris claims that after his death his body was dismembered and scattered throughout Egypt.

This is, I believe, New Kingdom beliefs.

[atalante]

[/size]

Osiris isn't that old. He dates to about 2800 BC. The gods of grain are Neper and Nephit. Nepher's the older one, associated with barley. Osiris takes on this attribute much later. https://en.wikipedia...per_(mythology)

MUCH later.

Wheat was the main grain crop.

See Reshfam footnotes: http://www.reshafim....sting_grain.htm

From the Nile Valley. Hierakonpolis is about 800 miles upstream from Cairo. The settlers were bands of nomadic Egyptians in the area.

That's a more recent practice.

This is, I believe, New Kingdom beliefs.

Kenemet,

I agree with your comment about the (semi-local) bands of Egyptians who migrated to Hierakonpolis.

Your comment about regional migration matches what I said in my previous post, about people who migrated into Hierakonpolis during Naqada I. Moreover, to support this population explosion, at this particular time -- the technology of food production must have been undergoing a revolution simultaneous with the population explosion at Hierakonpolis. Adopting a new grain cereal would allow the population explosion. (But continuing to grow the same old crops, the same old way, would not support a sudden population explosion in a small area at Hierakonpolis.)

However you do are deluding yourself about Neper and Nepit. They belong in the category of word-salad deities.

No city had either Neper or Nepit as its totem.

Did any city have a temple dedicated to Neper or Nepit?

Did any group of cities claim to rule any cluster of other cities, while it was citing Nepir or Nepit as a moral compass for the cluster of cities?

An important philosophical issue about the Heliopolitan cosmology was that Hierakonpolis (and its totem Horus) should be the role-model for southern Egypt to use in governing northern Egypt. By contrast, the city Nubt/Naqada (and its totem Set) was older, and operated gold mines -- but Nubt and Set should NOT be role-models for how southern Egypt should govern northern Egypt.

Osiris allegedly taught all the skills of civilization to Hierakonpolis; consequently southern Egypt was ready to pass on those desirable civilized skills, while governing northern Egypt. Thus all living kings of unified Egypt should be vicars of Horus, son of Osiris.

Nubt/Naqada had peaked in importance during the Naqada II phase. But Nubt (and its totem Set) became much less influential during Naqada III. http://www.academia.edu/2980599/Trade_and_Power_The_Role_of_Naqada_as_a_Trading_Centre_in_Predynastic_Egypt

[Jarocal]

Kenemet,

I agree with your comment about the (semi-local) bands of Egyptians who migrated to Hierakonpolis.

Your comment about regional migration matches what I said in my previous post, about people who migrated into Hierakonpolis during Naqada I. Moreover, to support this population explosion, at this particular time -- the technology of food production must have been undergoing a revolution simultaneous with the population explosion at Hierakonpolis. Adopting a new grain cereal would allow the population explosion. (But continuing to grow the same old crops, the same old way, would not support a sudden population explosion in a small area at Hierakonpolis.)

Your statement about the necessity to adopt a new grain infers that the local population was operating at capacity for the area. The caloric difference between barley and wheat would be marginal compared to say wheat and maize on a per acre average. More plausible is that the nomadic immigrants brought barley with them acquired by trading for grain in the north and planted the crop when they came. The area would have had plenty of room for crop field expansion at the time. Another reason would be for human tendencies to want to sell a higher value product. Even today farmers factor if corn or soybean are going to bring the better margin on the market. If barley had a lower initial supply but a larger group of immigrants recently moved to the area who preferred it then you would see early spikes in barley production because people would be willing to give more for their preference. The growth in barley would continue because even as supply brought price back to around wheat prices, the practice was to keep part of a harvest as seed not buy new seed annually (like today) unless you had a crop failure and had to buy grain for seed.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Jarocal

[cern]

"osiris" 4100bc mysterious gumelnita culture

looks unhappy and beheaded

became very very famous as a head.

he may have lived here

[Kenemet]

Moreover, to support this population explosion, at this particular time -- the technology of food production must have been undergoing a revolution simultaneous with the population explosion at Hierakonpolis. Adopting a new grain cereal would allow the population explosion.

They used barley to make beer for the most part. Breads were made of wheat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_agriculture#Food_crops

However you do are deluding yourself about Neper and Nepit. They belong in the category of word-salad deities.

No city had either Neper or Nepit as its totem.

Did any city have a temple dedicated to Neper or Nepit?

Did any group of cities claim to rule any cluster of other cities, while it was citing Nepir or Nepit as a moral compass for the cluster of cities?

The same can be said of Bes, Nut, Hapi, Aker (who's older than Geb), Imsety, Heh, and a host of others (I can list more. I just got tired of listing.) Just because you think they're not important didn't mean that they didn't exist and weren't important grain deities to the Egyptians.

Osiris allegedly taught all the skills of civilization to Hierakonpolis; consequently southern Egypt was ready to pass on those desirable civilized skills, while governing northern Egypt.

That might have been the story at Hierankonpolis later, yes.

Thus all living kings of unified Egypt should be vicars of Horus, son of Osiris.

They aren't vicars, they are the incarnation of Horus.

You're mixing some fairly late (New Kingdom/Ptolemaic) material with older material. This story developed over 3,000 years...the final version and first versions aren't the same.

[kmt_sesh]

Things have to be observed in their proper perspective. There remains to this day no solid evidence for Osiris before late Dynasty 5, specifically to the reign of Djedkare Isesi. If Osiris was a deity in Egypt prior to this time, he was of such minor status that he did not warrant shrines, monuments, or cults of any lasting sort in private or royal settings. That says volumes. Perhaps he was a minor regional deity in origin, but even that is a stretch because he cannot be pinned down to any nome or area of Egypt prior to Dynasty 5.

Atalante, most of what you've been claiming for Osiris is anachronistic in character. Hierakonpolis, for instance, was a thriving and bustling center in predynastic and Early Dynastic times, but had lost its importance and station by the end of the Old Kingdom, when the power-base shifted much farther to the north. The primary deity of Hierakonpolis was Horus, not Osiris. I am not aware of any cults or shrines to Osiris in Hierakonpolis, unless they fall very late in the Old Kingdom. Yes, there was a lot of agriculture and beer production in the area of Hierakonpolis, and in fact it's at this predynastic city where we have the world's oldest evidence for beer production on a large scale, but none of this is associated with Osiris.

Other things such as "Osiris beds" date to much later (as I recall, the New Kingdom). The mythic stories of Osiris as father of Horus see their earliest appearances at the end of the Old Kingdom but do not become fleshed out in the form more familirar to laypeople until later on, by the Middle Kingdom and espcially the New Kingdom. Osiris as a fertility god associated with the Nile Valley is also a later manifestation, and is related more with his role as the primary funerary deity because of the powerful resurrective symbolism of vegetation (hence the Osiris beds).

Kenemet has pointed out other errors in your approach. For example, barley was not the chief crop; wheat was (specifically emmer wheat). There were other deities more directly associated with crops, and one I'd point out is Renenutet.

One must observe the context of these pharaonic deities, so many of whom came and went and so many others of whom, such as Osiris, came later and absorbed the roles and traditions of other, older deities.

[Jarocal]

Things have to be observed in their proper perspective...~snip~... Yes, there was a lot of agriculture and beer production in the area of Hierakonpolis, and in fact it's at this predynastic city where we have the world's oldest evidence for beer production on a large scale, but none of this is associated with Osiris.

Which makes the site far more worthy of proper in depth investigation than Giza's pile of limestone blocks. I wonder if they were able to reconstruct recipes like dogfishhead did for it's "ancient ales" series. Their Etrusca and Midas touch were pretty good. I could see a nice Hierakon"hop"olis developed .

If I ever take a trip to Egypt the site where large scale brewing developed would rank higher on the list than seeing a large pile of rocks. I see enough of them at work...

Edited August 5, 2015 by Jarocal

[kmt_sesh]

Which makes the site far more worthy of proper in depth investigation than Giza's pile of limestone blocks. I wonder if they were able to reconstruct recipes like dogfishhead did for it's "ancient ales" series. Their Etrusca and Midas touch were pretty good. I could see a nice Hierakon"hop"olis developed .

If I ever take a trip to Egypt the site where large scale brewing developed would rank higher on the list than seeing a large pile of rocks. I see enough of them at work...

On a larger historical scale, you'd be safe in regarding Hierakonpolis as more historically significant to pharaonic Egypt than Giza was. Hierakonpolis was key to the formation of the Egyptian state—the birth of the kingdom—and the fostering of Horus as an important deity. Giza held high importance only sporadically, and in later periods it was the Sphinx (not the pyramids) that was significant there.

I've always wanted to visit Hierakonpolis, but the truth is there's not a hell of a lot to see today, aside from archaeologists. Today it's a remote and desolate site. No massive masonry ruins. No four-star hotels and luxury resorts. Well, except for the massive cold-water geysers shooting high into the air above buried libraries of lost magical knowledge about Egypt's Atlantean/alien origins.

Did I just say that?

[cladking]

Well, except for the massive cold-water geysers shooting high into the air above buried libraries of lost magical knowledge about Egypt's Atlantean/alien origins.

Would you believe I googled it and got no hits?

I think you're pulling my leg.

I've always wondered why in the PT Hierakonpolis (Hire a con police?)/ Nekhen are usually associated

with Buto which was nowhere nearby. I have a few hypotheses but no firm ground for any of them.

[Jarocal]

On a larger historical scale, you'd be safe in regarding Hierakonpolis as more historically significant to pharaonic Egypt than Giza was. Hierakonpolis was key to the formation of the Egyptian state—the birth of the kingdom—and the fostering of Horus as an important deity. Giza held high importance only sporadically, and in later periods it was the Sphinx (not the pyramids) that was significant there.

Unless G1 turns out to be a really big mash tun instead of a tomb of course Giza is of less historical significance.

I've always wanted to visit Hierakonpolis, but the truth is there's not a hell of a lot to see today, aside from archaeologists. Today it's a remote and desolate site. No massive masonry ruins. No four-star hotels and luxury resorts. Well, except for the massive cold-water geysers shooting high into the air above buried libraries of lost magical knowledge about Egypt's Atlantean/alien origins.

Did I just say that?

I see enough masonry at work. I do not need to spend money for a holiday to go view a stack of rocks. Now if my boss wanted to pay for me to spend some time in the Coastal Mediteranean examining traditional plastering finishes, I suppose that I would reluctantly go...

As far as Heirakonopolis being remote and not crowded, umm sign me up. I promise not to step inside any or too close to dig grids.

[Hanslune]

Unless G1 turns out to be a really big mash tun instead of a tomb of course Giza is of less historical significance.

I see enough masonry at work. I do not need to spend money for a holiday to go view a stack of rocks. Now if my boss wanted to pay for me to spend some time in the Coastal Mediteranean examining traditional plastering finishes, I suppose that I would reluctantly go...

As far as Heirakonopolis being remote and not crowded, umm sign me up. I promise not to step inside any or too close to dig grids.

For brewing I would check out Djoser's basement and all those empty pots!

[badeskov]

For brewing I would check out Djoser's basement and all those empty pots!

Hmmm, for brewing I would check out a certain room in the basement of a certain University in Denmark.....

Cheers (pun intended),

Badeskov

[kmt_sesh]

...

I've always wondered why in the PT Hierakonpolis (Hire a con police?)/ Nekhen are usually associated

with Buto which was nowhere nearby. I have a few hypotheses but no firm ground for any of them.

Nekhen (Hierakonpolis) and Pe (Buto) were two of the most ancient religious centers of Egypt, and the Egyptians seem to have always known that. They were regarded as centers for the ancestors of the souls of kings, so "the Souls of Pe and Nekhen" is frequently mentioned in religious writings from all periods (including in the Pyramid Texts).

[cern]

I've always wanted to visit Hierakonpolis, but the truth is there's not a hell of a lot to see today, aside from archaeologists. Today it's a remote and desolate site. No massive masonry ruins. No four-star hotels and luxury resorts. Well, except for the massive cold-water geysers shooting high into the air above buried libraries of lost magical knowledge about Egypt's Atlantean/alien origins.

Did I just say that?

thats funny because 6 years after the aia put up the interactive hierakanopolis website you hadn't visited that yet.

are there any foreign influences at hierakanopolis? well there is black-topped pottery and the first funeral mask in egypt 3600bc

anyone else in the world have a long tradition of black-topped pottery and triangular masks like this prior to 3600bc?