Why is incest bad?

[Abramelin]

Why is whom we have sex with so obsessing us?

Because we were screwed by religion.

You should not do this, you should not do that, and so on.

Religion is a typical human disease and I hope that some day they find an antidote.

[pallidin]

It simply would not be possible for the human species, or any species, to have thrived without intitial incestual relationship.

That is a biological fact.

[orangepeaceful79]

that's not true at all

Numerous Roman emperors performed incest. Caligula, Nero (although concrete proof hasn't been found of this), Carinus

Cleopatra was married to her younger brother.

And a lot of wedding papers have been found that attest to sister-brother weddings.

There came a time where there was a theorethical ban, but especially in Egypt incest was still practiced.

thanks for the actual facts regarding romans and incest.

[dlonewolf85]

A well-used argument is that incest (and homosexuality) are not natural, but if it's present in the animal kingdom then its not unnatural.

It depends on who you love. I'm not telling anybody to have an incestuous relationship, I'm saying that it's two persons' choice.

Diet you have a choice in. Sexual orientation and attraction you do not.

First of all, cannibalism too is naturally observed in many species, hence my question. Secondly, as you have stated so yourself, incest also is a matter of choice between two people (Incest is not just attraction, it's the ACT of having sex with family). So how are they any different, when the question of social acceptance is considered?

[dlonewolf85]

Yeah, but its a choice to be cannibalistic or not.

From that point of view, homosexual/heterosexual sex is a choice.

Cannibalism is, I believe, more taboo to modern culture than incest. The difference is that cannibalism involves something we find horrible, disgusting, voracious, etc, not to mention it's illegal. I'm sure many people imagine those same terms when thinking about incest (minus "voracious"), but I realize that you might have a different sexual orientation than mine.

You may be correct in that my sexual orientation might be different than yours, I am straight (and also, I sincerely believe I am not sexually attracted to any person in my family). Also, I think you answered your own question (which was raised earlier in this thread, in response to notoverrated's post) as to why some people could even think of incest as being sick or disgusting when it's just a matter of choice for two consensual adult individuals. And the answer, I imagine, is that people have different opinions and notions, and as to how they perceive certain things can also differ. Incest, just like cannibalism, is strictly illegal in many countries (including Australia, the UK, and in many states in the US) and is definitely frowned upon by society in general. And I believe that nobody can definitely say as to how much or to what measure, the acts of either cannibalism or incest, should be accepted or be ostracized. Hence the question of cannibalism being more or less disgusting than the act of incest is basically out of the picture. But, it was great hearing your views, I found them very interesting. Thanks for sharing and have a great day!

[dlonewolf85]

I think that sexual attraction, for one, is NOT a choice. Therefore, incest shouldn't be illegal.

We aren't discussing just the sexual attraction, but the ACT of having sexual intercourse among biological relatives. Secondly, even though you may think that it shouldn't be so, incest IS in fact, illegal in many countries.

But we all are entitled to having our own opinions, and I respect yours.

Edited August 26, 2012 by dlonewolf85

[Professor Buzzkill]

I find incest disgusting, just like the thought of homosexual sex. This is because i have my own sexual preferences. Who am I to say your relationship is wrong because i wouldn't do it?

Why are we so obsessed with making things a crime when there is no victim?

Just think, it wasn't long ago you could be locked up for having consensual homosexual sex

[Imaginarynumber1]

thanks for the actual facts regarding romans and incest.

In the Graeco-Roman period of the Republic, yes, it was accepted. After the end of the Republic and the rise of the Roman Empire it had become much more taboo and around late 200 BCE it was outlawed for good. Before that many politicians would attempt to defame others with charges of incest. There were actually two laws about it. One that applied to all under Romans rule and one that applied only to Roman citizens. So even during the Empire some non citizen people could marry incestuously while citizens could not. (Interestingly, they held the same negative view of oral sex.)

Even so, Caligula probably boned his sisters and Claudius killed his wife and married his brothers daughter.(Though I'm sure that was mainly to ensure any heir would be of both Claudian and Julian decent, thus strengthening and perceived political weakness.) So there was still incest among the elites.

In any case, if one was even punished for it, they were exiled, not killed.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Imaginarynumber1

[None of the above]

Recently there have been some well publicised cases of incestuous relationships where the parties had been separated for many years and either met by chance and were attracted to each other (unaware of their pre-existing relationship) or were introduced for the first time because their family connection was discovered and STILL entered into a sexual relationship.

One possible explanation given for this is 'Genetic Sexual Attraction'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_sexual_attraction

Here is one recent case:

http://www.guardian....ekend7.weekend2

Edited August 26, 2012 by Atlantia

[ZaraKitty]

I find incest disgusting, just like the thought of homosexual sex. This is because i have my own sexual preferences. Who am I to say your relationship is wrong because i wouldn't do it?

Why are we so obsessed with making things a crime when there is no victim?

Just think, it wasn't long ago you could be locked up for having consensual homosexual sex

I like you :3 You have a great, open minded view ^^

[Antilles]

I like you :3 You have a great, open minded view ^^

I'll ask an open minded question.

Why did you start such a stupid thread?

If you really think there is nothing wrong with incestuous sex then why are you canvassing opinions?

[Apopo]

I don't see unnatural as being necessarily immoral.

I'm not talking about interbreeding. We obviously have birth control measures, so that wouldn't be a major problem. As long as it is two consenting adults, I don't see why it is any of our business.

I don't know what sparked a change, but many people are against incest with religion as a basis, or they are just influenced and taught that incest is bad over the years.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Apopo

[lightly]

It simply would not be possible for the human species, or any species, to have thrived without intitial incestual relationship.

That is a biological fact.

This puzzles me Pallidin. You seem to be inferring that species suddenly appear in pairs . Do they not evolve from one to another?

[ZaraKitty]

I'll ask an open minded question.

Why did you start such a stupid thread?

If you really think there is nothing wrong with incestuous sex then why are you canvassing opinions?

I don't think there is anything wrong with it, but I would like to know why other people do. I am interested in a lot of things, opinions and the reasoning behind them.

If you don't like my thread, don't call it stupid and just walk away. I can't say I like having my curiosity insulted.

[Clarakore]

I find incest disgusting, just like the thought of homosexual sex. This is because i have my own sexual preferences. Who am I to say your relationship is wrong because i wouldn't do it?

Why are we so obsessed with making things a crime when there is no victim?

Just think, it wasn't long ago you could be locked up for having consensual homosexual sex

Digust is a trait we evolved to keep us from harmful pathogens. Of course just because we are disgusted at something in modern times does not mean whatever makes us disgusted has cooties.

I don't think there is anything wrong with it, but I would like to know why other people do. I am interested in a lot of things, opinions and the reasoning behind them.

If you don't like my thread, don't call it stupid and just walk away. I can't say I like having my curiosity insulted.

Well played.

[pallidin]

This puzzles me Pallidin. You seem to be inferring that species suddenly appear in pairs . Do they not evolve from one to another?

Well, I don't know. You bring up a good question. I certainly am not always right.

So what do you think, were there multiple "Adams and Eves"

[Beany]

If a person is going to engage in any behavior outside cultural norms, they should be prepared to be judged. To expect others to act against their cultural heritage and approve or not judge is unrealistic. And incest is not just about two people choosing to engage in sex, as it occurs within cultural context, so it's about culture as well, and that culture's general rules of behavior, as well family context. If you're a member of a group, or groups, then the expectation is you'll adhere to the rules of behavior, or be willing to tolerate negative reactions to the undesirable (from the group perspective) behavior.

What is this assumption that because incest may have been necessary a gazillion years ago in order to our species to propogate, that it's OK now? Are we still illiterate cave people unaware of anything but the need to survive & propogate? Given the current size of our population, incest is no longer necessary to guarantee survival of our species. And as I understand it, incest between brothers & sisters in Roman & Egyptian societies were usually done for reasons of economics & political power, not because of some undying love between the two. Comparing behaviors that occurred outside our culture a couple of thousand years ago it not helpful to the discussion, because things have changed. That was then, this is now, and now is when we live, within our countries & cultures and all that pertains to. Those who live outside cultural norms hopefully weigh the personal risks & rewards and act accordingly. But don't expect anyone to walk up to you & say, Good on you, mate.

[pallidin]

Beany, I don't think anyone in this thread is actually promoting incest. I know that I am not.

However, I think that many of us are trying to understand it's place in biology, history and psychology, being at times aggressive with our comments to get to the truth.

It's just a discussion.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

Why would you want to have sex with a member of your family? it's one thing if it's a 4th cousin or somebody you never see or knew,then maybe i can see how a hook up could happen,but why would you want to have sex with a sister,mother and cousin? that is just so screwed up it's nuts!

[WoIverine]

I don't think there is anything wrong with it, but I would like to know why other people do. I am interested in a lot of things, opinions and the reasoning behind them.

If you don't like my thread, don't call it stupid and just walk away. I can't say I like having my curiosity insulted.

So, if you had a brother (or sister) that you were sexually attracted to, would you do it?

Edited August 26, 2012 by Spid3rCyd3

[Lady_Mercury]

I read in a psychology textbook that humans are attracted to potential mates by smell and that we're genetically programmed to find a relative's scent unappealing.

Having said that, apparently it's a fairly common occurrence for adopted siblings who are later reunited to develop a sexual relationship. Maybe part of our disgust has to do with upbringing: we're less likely to commit incest if we've grown up with that person.

There was a documentary on incest which said it isn't actually illegal unless you try to wed or procreate.

[pallidin]

I read in a psychology textbook that humans are attracted to potential mates by smell and that we're genetically programmed to find a relative's scent unappealing.

Hence the proliferation of cologne and perfumes.

[Lady_Mercury]

We're programmed to find the healthiest mate to endow our offspring with greater genetic resources. As people have already said on this thread, sexual relations with a relative really reduce the genetic makeup, so incest isn't in our best interests from an evolutionary standpoint.

Plus it's gross.

[Beany]

Beany, I don't think anyone in this thread is actually promoting incest. I know that I am not.

However, I think that many of us are trying to understand it's place in biology, history and psychology, being at times aggressive with our comments to get to the truth.

It's just a discussion.

Got it, sometimes I can be aggressive in my comments. I've been out on the web reading about incest, it's history, prohibitions, etc., and it's interesting reading. The great thing about UM is that I often find the need to educate myself before I can offer any thing substantive to the conversation, about issues I've really been mostly ignorant about it.

[meryt-tetisheri]

The discussion of incest here has so far concentrated on the individual’s view point, whether it’s a personal choice and how acceptable it is; or whether from a biological perspective, the use of contraceptives would mitigate the negative consequences of incest. IMO, a discussion of incest or an attempt to understand it must also include an analysis of its origin as an evolutionary mechanism, its biosocial, social relational and psychological aspects, both on individual and societal levels. There is more to a discussion of incest than individual preference or freedom. I will try to only very briefly touch on the various aspects of the subject and frankly I’m not sure how clear or coherent my post will be; so excuse me while I ramble on & bore all of you to death!

Incest avoidance and ‘dispersal’ are evolutionary strategies or inhibiting mechanisms the purpose of which is to ensure the genetic advantages of bi-parental reproduction by increasing variety through the recombination of genetic material, and thus the survival of a species. Generally, among animals intra-familial sexuality is inhibited by family dissolution (expulsion of the young before they reach sexual maturity) or by the suppression of sexuality among lower ranking group members e.g. among canines. Incest avoidance was studied among captive homosexual female Japanese macaques; it exists among primates, and therefore could be regarded as phylogenetic among humans.

Incest avoidance is translated as incest taboo among humans. Exogamy and incest taboo were crucial in the development of human society as we know it now, they may be considered as structurally foundational key patterns of phylogenetic roots (the primate connection). Stable breeding bonds form the cornerstone in the development of early human multifamily community, even more so if we consider the length of time it takes for the human young to mature, their dependency on adults & relative helplessness. This stability relies on what is called ‘exogamy configuration’ which, as defined by Bernard Charpais, includes ‘stable kin groups, enduring mating bonds between particular male & female, incest avoidance among resident close kin, kinship networks’.

The introduction of sexual rivalry or conflict within a family unit threatens its existence, which might be a reason why legislations prohibiting incest are universal. Incest (brother-sister or parent-child) disrupts family dynamics and traditional family roles, could entail the emotional and sexual exploitation of weaker members and child abuse. It may affect the psychological development of the young, their self-esteem, and the ability of the individual to function in the wider society especially when facing societal sanctions.

As for the definition of incest, though not instinctive, incest taboo is nevertheless a ‘culture universal’: existing in one form or the other, depending on a culture’s definition of kinship. For example, among the Lakher of Southeast Asia, maternal half-brothers and sisters are permitted to marry, as children are regarded as exclusively the father’s. Paternal half siblings on the other hand are not allowed to marry; such a union is deemed incestuous. Genetic sexual attraction has been mentioned in the thread as an explanation of incest, another factor operating in a different direction is co-residence duration which is regarded as a predictor of opposition to incest operating even among unrelated ‘kin’ like among kibbutz children for example. Even with the use of contraceptives, or if individual cases of consenting adults are accepted, the negative side-effects of incest cannot be mitigated without a wider re-structuring of society and drastic cultural change.