California bans homosexuality therapy

[+OverSword]

I read up on DOnahue last night, so what yo usay about the man seems legit. I'd like to know the context of the show however.

It was years ago but from my recollection of the show it was almost an afterthought that the men's current sexuality became part of the questioning, and Phil seemed a little surprised (or at least acted like it). The episode was really more about exposing the fact that males being molested by females was just as traumatic as everyone knew it was for females to be molested by males. At the time a boy being introduced to sex by a woman was almost treated like time to high five, because men supposedly use sex to prove how manly and cool they are so how could it be traumatic, you know.

Donohue probably was one of the biggest influences on how much more open-minded Americans became in the last 30 years than the 200 before that combined. It was a very liberal, I would say feminist leaning program that was on every day at 4:00 right when we would get home fom school and I didn't know one teenager that didn't tune it at least a couple of time a week.

I would dearly like to see figures on the success rate (over the medium to long term) of such gender re-adjustement therapies. I would say it would be very low indeed.

It seems to me somewhat abusive to subject a person to a process which implicitly denies their biological sexuality, it would be far better to council the person on dealing with their sexuality in a hostile environment - that seems medically ethical.

Br Cornelius

I would agree with you on principle but believe that the person's feelings about it should also be a determining factor in what direction they want thier counciling to go, so the choice should be available for those who desire it.

edited to add: Does it seem appropriate for a bunch of politicians to make laws concerning medical therapies??? Are they expert enough to make that call on behalf of psychologists? It seems like the doctors themselves should have the final say on treatment.

Edited August 31, 2012 by OverSword

[Guest]

I would agree with you on principle but believe that the person's feelings about it should also be a determining factor in what direction they want thier counciling to go, so the choice should be available for those who desire it.

The fact that a person approaches a councillor expressing the desire to change gender orientation should not automatically means that the councillor should agree to that request. Many young and brutalised people would like nothing better than to stop been "homosexual" to stop the societal abuse. The doesn't mean that it is a desirable or even possible outcome. It is the responsibility of the councillor to identify the cause of the problem - which in this case would be societal prejudice, and help equip that person with the skills to deal with that abuse.

Br Cornelius

[Guest]

Here is a figure;

Ariel Shidlo and Michael Schroeder found in "Changing Sexual Orientation: A Consumer's Report", a peer-reviewed study of 150 respondents^[94] published in 2002, that 88% of participants failed to achieve a sustained change in their sexual behavior and 3% reported changing their orientation to heterosexual. The remainder reported either losing all sexual drive or attempting to remain celibate, with no change in attraction. Some of the participants who failed felt a sense of shame and had gone through conversion therapy programs for many years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy#Studies_of_conversion_therapy

A success rate of just 3% should tell you all you need to know about the principles of gender realignment therapy.

Br Cornelius

[mfrmboy]

So glad to hear this.

I have always been attracted to the same sex. Yes , growing up I had girlfriends but it was just trying to fit in and figure things out.

I was raised in the church and attended private christian schools. I was told being homosexual was an abomination according to scripture. They would say that we all have a purpose and are here to learn from it and if we did not and did not ask forgivness we could not go to heaven, we would burn in HELL forever. God loves you ! I think this tramatized me more than anything any bully did growing up.

Needless to say once I was old enough to make my own decisions I was outta there not believing anything these "christians" told me.

I have many friends who are LGBT and all say they were born that way.

So if being gay is a deformity or mental illness does that mean we can get a CHECK ?

[FurthurBB]

So glad to hear this.

I have always been attracted to the same sex. Yes , growing up I had girlfriends but it was just trying to fit in and figure things out.

I was raised in the church and attended private christian schools. I was told being homosexual was an abomination according to scripture. They would say that we all have a purpose and are here to learn from it and if we did not and did not ask forgivness we could not go to heaven, we would burn in HELL forever. God loves you ! I think this tramatized me more than anything any bully did growing up.

Needless to say once I was old enough to make my own decisions I was outta there not believing anything these "christians" told me.

I have many friends who are LGBT and all say they were born that way.

So if being gay is a deformity or mental illness does that mean we can get a CHECK ?

It is not a defect at all, so it could not be a birth defect. It is just a genetic variation like having blue or brown eyes. We see it in a lot of animal species, especially mammals. Who knows, it could be something left over from an ancestor that could change gender based on availability of reproductive partners.

[+OverSword]

It is not a defect at all, so it could not be a birth defect. It is just a genetic variation like having blue or brown eyes. We see it in a lot of animal species, especially mammals. Who knows, it could be something left over from an ancestor that could change gender based on availability of reproductive partners.

With the exception that in theory it would be much harder to pass on than eye color since it really is inherently a genetic dead end.

The fact that a person approaches a councillor expressing the desire to change gender orientation should not automatically means that the councillor should agree to that request. Many young and brutalised people would like nothing better than to stop been "homosexual" to stop the societal abuse. The doesn't mean that it is a desirable or even possible outcome. It is the responsibility of the councillor to identify the cause of the problem - which in this case would be societal prejudice, and help equip that person with the skills to deal with that abuse.

Br Cornelius

I agree BR, overwhelmingly I would assume that this type of "deprogamming" (if you will) would not be appropriate, but would leave that up to the patient and the doctor, not the politicians which is the only legitimate thing to be arguing about on this thread in my opinion, since it is about a certain treatement being legislated out of existence. Perhaps they can eliminate treatment through counciling and assume all metal disorders are caused by chemical imbalance next, or perhaps electroshock therapy since everyone knows electricity can be dangerous?

[Guest]

I agree BR, overwhelmingly I would assume that this type of "deprogamming" (if you will) would not be appropriate, but would leave that up to the patient and the doctor, not the politicians which is the only legitimate thing to be arguing about on this thread in my opinion, since it is about a certain treatement being legislated out of existence. Perhaps they can eliminate treatment through counciling and assume all metal disorders are caused by chemical imbalance next, or perhaps electroshock therapy since everyone knows electricity can be dangerous?

As someone suggested - if in a particular case the homosexuality was caused by trauma - then by treating the trauma the homosexuality should get treated as well. That is the only form of treatment I can see as been appropriate here.

Really all of these debates are moral debates trying to hide under a cover of scientific legitimacy. The very fact that the overwhelming majority of people who advocate gender realignment therapy as either religious and / or conservative should tell us all we need to know about what is driving the debate here.

Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

[+OverSword]

As someone suggested - if in a particular case the homosexuality was caused by trauma - then by treating the trauma the homosexuality should get treated as well. That is the only form of treatment I can see as been appropriate here.

Really all of these debates are moral debates trying to hide under a cover of scientific legitimacy. The very fact that the overwhelming majority of people who advocate gender realignment therapy as either religious and / or conservative should tell us all we need to know about what is driving the debate here.

Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

I am unaware of that fact but like I said, I'm not an expert and believe it should be left to experts to determine treatement, not politicians.

[Simbi Laveau]

*rubs temples*No, you don't "turn" gay. For example, an aversion to sexual or intimate contact with the opposite sex due to traumas in the childhood does not equate you going gay. It equates there being psychological trauma that causes issues.

You already got a good answer further down, but I'll be more crude about it: Bias. Sensationalist bias. Of course a show will do a claim like that, cherrypick the people they show up and some people with a very specific agenda will gobble it up like it's McDonalds.

I like to think I'm a person that pays attention to facts and tries to read stuff. Rather than going with "A TV_show told me, and I have like friends who I base stuff on."

If I did the same I could joyfully declare religion dead in Sweden because all my friends have left religion!

Anecdotal evidence for the win! No, but seriously. Anecdotal evidence isn't worth much. It's why my essays used to be thrashed by mu Uni-teachers

I never said "turn gay".

I said bisexual. They like both,and if one is no longer palatable for psychological reason,they go the other direction,which can be bi to straight,bi to gay,depending what kind of trauma they had. It can be either .I know too many gay ,former abused women,to not think there's a connection .

I don't think any one turns .They are already predisposed to having gay leanings .

I'm straight,and I have had more bad boyfrinds than you can Imagine. I still have no desire to be with a women .

If I were bi,well that would give me another option .

[libstaK]

What if a teen does/wants to see it as a illness and wants help to change?

A psychiatrist is the best bet. The teen needs to know whether it is self hatred, bullying, trying to fit in or any of a host of other issues that are at the root of their views on their sexuality whatever it may turn out to be.

Conversion therapy starts out with the premise that the feelings are wrong - this is a bias and not a means to bringing a person to the point where they are actually true to themselves.

[Likely Guy]

Conversion therapy starts out with the premise that the feelings are wrong - this is a bias and not a means to bringing a person to the point where they are actually true to themselves.

Thank you, articulate voice of reason.

[+DieChecker]

What if a teen does/wants to see it as a illness and wants help to change?

If you "want to change" you generally don't need a therapy that "makes you want to change".

I agree that I've heard of people actively asking for this "treatment". They are probably the 3% that succeed.

I'm not sure Q. That is sort of like saying to an Alcoholic, "Just stop drinking". It is not that simple. First they have an environmental problem usually,and secondly usually mental or emotional issues. Same could be true here. A gay that wants to leave the gay lifestyle probably needs to reorder their entire life, not just flip a switch.

I also am not sure why this fails so often. Brainwashing is a well known and practiced technique that is used worldwide on millions of people all the time. Religion could be argued to be the biggest form of brainwashing there is. It would seem to be this should be a easily successful thing to get done. Hypnosis, indoctrination, hazing... all should bring enough fear and anger to fip anyone to anything given time. So I'm left with the conclusion that the only people practicing this procedure/therapy are undereducated or unpassionate money grubbers. A good irish priest (A GOOD Irish Priest) would work on someone who wanted to switch sides as long as it took and would definately get results. Or at least the apperance of results, which many times leads later to the actual result.

I've seen too many people "Switch Sides" to believe it is 100% genetic and there is no Free Will involved. When gays say no one would pick the lifestyle, I am reminded that I've spoken to several young Jehovah's Witness and Mormons who said the same thing. That they wish they could get out, but simply can't.

EDIT: DISCLAIMER.....

Just because I'm saying it is possible does not mean I support forcing anyone to these kinds of treatments. I think the Christian "Gay Camps" that parents used to (Still do?) send there kids to are a waste of time.

Edited September 1, 2012 by DieChecker

[Guest]

Brain washing was shown not to work when it was investigated through the MKultra Research program. As such the idea of transforming a mind by intervention was given up on by the espionage community. What we generally see is propaganda targeted at a vulnerable demographic. It works because it introduces an idea to which the target audience has no strong opinion or is predisposed to accept.

Br Cornelius

[questionmark]

I agree that I've heard of people actively asking for this "treatment". They are probably the 3% that succeed.

I'm not sure Q. That is sort of like saying to an Alcoholic, "Just stop drinking". It is not that simple. First they have an environmental problem usually,and secondly usually mental or emotional issues. Same could be true here. A gay that wants to leave the gay lifestyle probably needs to reorder their entire life, not just flip a switch.

Yes, if they want to change they need support, but they certainly do not need a therapy that brainwashes them into wanting to change.

[+DieChecker]

So... I wonder where people who DO want to undergo such a treatment are to go now? Mexico? Vegas?

I thought California was a strong supporter of Alternative Medicine?

[questionmark]

So... I wonder where people who DO want to undergo such a treatment are to go now? Mexico? Vegas?

I thought California was a strong supporter of Alternative Medicine?

Again: People wanting "such a treatment" don't have to be brainwashed. They can go to a normal Psychiatrist for normal counseling.

[+DieChecker]

Again: People wanting "such a treatment" don't have to be brainwashed. They can go to a normal Psychiatrist for normal counseling.

But, I thought that was the point. Just treating someone who is gay to somehow not be gay is what is being targeted. Wasn't there a court case about a year ago where a Psychologist was told to desist by a judge because he was treating someone who was gay and did not want to be anymore. Hundreds of people picketed his office and harrassed him endlessly. (It might not have been a Psychologist, maybe just some kind of Therepist.)

It smacks to me of similarity with Muslim countries that demand Death for those who preach conversion, or those who convert to any other religion. Yet, they treat as heros anyone who brings people into Islam. Any actions that challenge the homosexual Political Correctness ideology are labeled as Evil, regardless of circumstances and those involved.

Edited September 4, 2012 by DieChecker

[shadowhive]

But, I thought that was the point. Just treating someone who is gay to somehow not be gay is what is being targeted. Wasn't there a court case about a year ago where a Psychologist was told to desist by a judge because he was treating someone who was gay and did not want to be anymore. Hundreds of people picketed his office and harrassed him endlessly. (It might not have been a Psychologist, maybe just some kind of Therepist.)

It smacks to me of similarity with Muslim countries that demand Death for those who preach conversion, or those who convert to any other religion. Yet, they treat as heros anyone who brings people into Islam. Any actions that challenge the homosexual Political Correctness ideology are labeled as Evil, regardless of circumstances and those involved.

There is a very big hole in that comparison. With religion, people consciously choose to belief that religion. You can ask a person 'when did you choose to be a (insert religion) and why' and you'd get answers. Clearly, people make a choice to be muslim, or christian, or any other religions.

Now when it comes to sexuality is it that clear cut? Ask anyone when they 'chose' to be gay or straight and you'd find that answers to such a question would be severely lacking. The cloest you can get is when people realise they are one or the other, which usually kicks in during the teens.

Now here's the tricky part. People say that homosexuality is a choice, while ignoring all evidence that it's not.The clearest is examples like the one you provide. If it's a simple choice, why does one not simply choose not to be? Why are conselling sessions and things close to torture required for people to 'change' if they want to? If someone wants to change a religion, they don't have to go through such efforts to do so. They can just change from one to the other withoutt going through such a long, drawn out process. So why is it necessary here? And why, even though it's been shown to be something that doesn't work, is it still being advocated as an appropriate treatment?

With all the proof showing this 'treatment' does not work I think people are ethically bound not to offer it because the 'sucess rate' is so low and the 'treatment' itself is shown to be damaging. Why people ignore it is really beyond me.

[+OverSword]

Brain washing was shown not to work when it was investigated through the MKultra Research program.

Br Cornelius

Tell that to Patti Herst brain washing doesn't work It works well on American voters as far as I can see.

Aplogy for off topic comment.

[+DieChecker]

There is a very big hole in that comparison. With religion, people consciously choose to belief that religion. You can ask a person 'when did you choose to be a (insert religion) and why' and you'd get answers. Clearly, people make a choice to be muslim, or christian, or any other religions.

Now when it comes to sexuality is it that clear cut? Ask anyone when they 'chose' to be gay or straight and you'd find that answers to such a question would be severely lacking. The cloest you can get is when people realise they are one or the other, which usually kicks in during the teens.

I agree there is a hole, as religion does not have any known genetic component to it. But, I do know that not 100% of self-assigned gay individuals were alway gay, or stay gay. Many do, but not all. I don't know many gay people, but I think those who are gay and have always been is somewhere between 66% and 90%. So, I believe as much as a third probably make a personnal choice.

Now here's the tricky part. People say that homosexuality is a choice, while ignoring all evidence that it's not.The clearest is examples like the one you provide. If it's a simple choice, why does one not simply choose not to be? Why are conselling sessions and things close to torture required for people to 'change' if they want to? If someone wants to change a religion, they don't have to go through such efforts to do so. They can just change from one to the other withoutt going through such a long, drawn out process. So why is it necessary here? And why, even though it's been shown to be something that doesn't work, is it still being advocated as an appropriate treatment?

With all the proof showing this 'treatment' does not work I think people are ethically bound not to offer it because the 'sucess rate' is so low and the 'treatment' itself is shown to be damaging. Why people ignore it is really beyond me.

I think what you say is correct, but those who push that not all gays Chose what they are ignore that many do chose to be gay.

Just as other mental and emotional related issues need, switch sexualities would take a lot of help. People don't often stop using drugs, alcohol, tobacco or gambling without help. Some people even require counciling if they are simply changing jobs. I don't agree that torture should be used, but I believe that therpy should be available to those who wish for it.

[Michelle]

Cynthia Nixon stands by her statement that she is gay by choice, despite the backlash she’s received from members of the gay community.

The “Sex and the City” star recently clarified remarks she made during a speech to a gay audience in which she declared, “I’ve been straight and I’ve been gay, and gay is better.”

The remark caused a stir in the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community. Nixon told last Sunday’s New York Times magazine that she was pressured to change what she said, “because they said it implies that homosexuality can be a choice.

“For me, it is a choice,” Nixon told the Times. “I understand that for many people it’s not, but for me it’s a choice, and you don’t get to define my gayness for me.”

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/entertainment/2012/01/cynthia-nixon-gay-by-choice/

[shadowhive]

I agree there is a hole, as religion does not have any known genetic component to it. But, I do know that not 100% of self-assigned gay individuals were alway gay, or stay gay. Many do, but not all. I don't know many gay people, but I think those who are gay and have always been is somewhere between 66% and 90%. So, I believe as much as a third probably make a personnal choice.

Perhaps they do. However that means if such a large percentage don't make a choice the promise of a 'cure' is an out and out lie.

I think what you say is correct, but those who push that not all gays Chose what they are ignore that many do chose to be gay.

Just as other mental and emotional related issues need, switch sexualities would take a lot of help. People don't often stop using drugs, alcohol, tobacco or gambling without help. Some people even require counciling if they are simply changing jobs. I don't agree that torture should be used, but I believe that therpy should be available to those who wish for it.

The pressure of being in a hetrosexual world, pressue from family and religion can make people wish they weren't gay. A promise of a 'cure' becomes a tempting offer for those people. What it really is is taking advantage of vulnerable people by claiming to do something that's not guaranteed.

I do agrree that people should be offered therapy, but the goal should not be 'curing' them. The goal should be, like all therpy is, puttint the patient first. Instead of relying on something that's a lie, the therapy should have the goal of dealing with the problems the person faces and helping them through them. Often, working through the problems in such a way has much better results than offering a 'quick fix cure' which has poor results.

[+DieChecker]

Perhaps they do. However that means if such a large percentage don't make a choice the promise of a 'cure' is an out and out lie.

Yes. I can agree to that. No one can be cured of being gay against their will. They will always relapse, regardless of whatever treatment they received against their will.

The pressure of being in a hetrosexual world, pressue from family and religion can make people wish they weren't gay. A promise of a 'cure' becomes a tempting offer for those people. What it really is is taking advantage of vulnerable people by claiming to do something that's not guaranteed.

What is guaranteed in the world of Therapy? People can go to see the Shrink for decades and never resolve anything. Some alcholics never get clean.

I think the first thing would be that the person being treated would have to Want the treatment. If they don't want it, it is not going to work.

Didn't someone post a while back that Religion was a simple thing to change? And family is today more nebulous then it has ever been. Kids and adults have been running off due to family and religion for thousands of years. It is nothing new.

I do agrree that people should be offered therapy, but the goal should not be 'curing' them. The goal should be, like all therpy is, puttint the patient first. Instead of relying on something that's a lie, the therapy should have the goal of dealing with the problems the person faces and helping them through them. Often, working through the problems in such a way has much better results than offering a 'quick fix cure' which has poor results.

I agree each person should be treated according to their problems. And I also agree that Predators should be discouraged. The quick fix rarely works.

Edited September 5, 2012 by DieChecker