Great Pyramid not built by Khufu?

[Harte]

40 000 vases-thats amazing...and those math about GP, its interesting that Pi appears often in GP math.

Anyway AE knew about golden ratio.

Thanks.

Despite whatever claim you might have read and wished to believe, the fact is that pi appears nowhere in any Egyptian pyramid.

Need an explanation? Link

More in these search results.

Harte

[ShadowSot]

Any take on the 'Hyksos' Sesh,the shepard kings.

To save a little of Kmt-Sesh's precious time (and to waste a little of my own)here is a link to a thread Kmt-Sesh made a couple of years back on the Hykos.

Edit: I really dislike how this forum handles links now.

Edited September 25, 2012 by ShadowSot

[Harte]

To save a little of Kmt-Sesh's precious time (and to waste a little of my own)here is a link to a thread Kmt-Sesh made a couple of years back on the Hykos.

Edit: I really dislike how this forum handles links now.

You've been away.

Without getting all mushy, let it be said that I noticed.

Harte

[ShadowSot]

You've been away.

Without getting all mushy, let it be said that I noticed.

Harte

Wow, thanks. I don't think I contribute enough to be missed to be honest.

I'm in the midst of trying to get a podcast set up to cover some of the basic topics we talk about here, started a new relationship, working odd hours, staking over a Freethinker group, starting a Humanist chapter, started a Skeptics in the Pub, and taking my nieces out weekends for tutoring and book reading.

Pretty sure I've forgotten something to.

Might say I'm a bit busy, and I haven't even started school again yet.

[cormac mac airt]

Wow, thanks. I don't think I contribute enough to be missed to be honest.

I'm in the midst of trying to get a podcast set up to cover some of the basic topics we talk about here, started a new relationship, working odd hours, staking over a Freethinker group, starting a Humanist chapter, started a Skeptics in the Pub, and taking my nieces out weekends for tutoring and book reading.

Pretty sure I've forgotten something to.

Might say I'm a bit busy, and I haven't even started school again yet.

As Harte has said, it's been noticed. As busy as you say you are I have to wonder, how many copies have you cloned so far?

cormac

[questionmark]

Wow, thanks. I don't think I contribute enough to be missed to be honest.

I'm in the midst of trying to get a podcast set up to cover some of the basic topics we talk about here, started a new relationship, working odd hours, staking over a Freethinker group, starting a Humanist chapter, started a Skeptics in the Pub, and taking my nieces out weekends for tutoring and book reading.

Pretty sure I've forgotten something to.

Might say I'm a bit busy, and I haven't even started school again yet.

Prudent and informed opinions are always missed here, no mater how many of them an individual writes.

[ShadowSot]

As Harte has said, it's been noticed. As busy as you say you are I have to wonder, how many copies have you cloned so far?

cormac

Not enough. The discount I get from the NWO hardly counts towards anything these days.

Oops, wasn't supposed to say that.

Prudent and informed opinions are always missed here, no mater how many of them an individual writes.

Prudent? Informed? Where?

Now I'm blushing.

Leaving for work now, I'll try to make my next visit shorter in distance than a week.

[kmt_sesh]

@kmt_sesh

Why do you think that it wasnt hieroglyphs invented in Abydos? Maybe Dreyer found first hieroglyphs.

I'm not sure what you mean by the question. I don't recall saying hieroglyphs were not invented at Abydos, I merely explained that Tomb Uj in Abydos contained the oldest-known hieroglyphs. In fact, it's possible hieroglyphs were first developed at Abydos, although at present no one can be certain. A prevailing theory is that hieroglyphs began as a writing system in only one locale or region, and became the standard formal writing system only after the period of state formation (3100 BCE). So it is possible that the late-prehistoric rulers of the Abydos nome invented and sponsored the development of hieroglyphs.

40 000 vases-thats amazing...and those math about GP, its interesting that Pi appears often in GP math.

Anyway AE knew about golden ratio.

I double-checked the figures for the number of vessels found below the Step Pyramid, and around 40,000 is correct. That's a hell of a lot of vessels! My source was Miroslav Verner's The Pyramids, one of the best books on the subject of Egyptian pyramids, in my opinion. Verner explains that the vessels found below the Step Pyramid came in a wide variety of materials including alabaster, diorite, limestone, and slate (2001: 120).

Pi might be evident to the modern eye in the Great Pyramid, but I must stress there is no evidence in the pharaonic record that they themselves were familiar with the concept. The exact same is true for the golden ratio. In my earlier post I mentioned my friend who's a professor of advanced mathematics as well as a die-hard Egypt buff. As she puts it, to the Egyptians math was strictly a practical and immediate concern, and was used strictly for engineering purposes and related matters; it was not a thing of philosophy and intellectual pursuit as it was to the Greeks.

To save a little of Kmt-Sesh's precious time (and to waste a little of my own)here is a link to a thread Kmt-Sesh made a couple of years back on the Hykos.

Edit: I really dislike how this forum handles links now.

Thanks for the assist, ShadowSot. I'm surprised you even remembered that thread, although I see you took part in it. In any case, I hope Harsh at least reviewed the OP. In another current thread he seemed to be postulating that the Hyksos had built the Great Pyramid. I think not.

And by the way, it is indeed great to see you back on the forum.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

The exact same is true for the golden ratio.

AE built in golden ratio so they knew about it. Its fact. We have hard evidence for it.

Edited September 27, 2012 by the L

[Scott Creighton]

...Pi might be evident to the modern eye in the Great Pyramid, but I must stress there is no evidence in the pharaonic record that they themselves were familiar with the concept....

SC: No one needs to be aware of Pi or Phi to create these values within a monument. It can be placed within a monument quite unentionally simply by using a circle in the design phase of the structure,here.

SC

Edited September 27, 2012 by Scott Creighton

[Harsh86_Patel]

Could khufu or other pharoans have mass hypnotised the egyptologists to beleive that he built the great pyramid.

On a more serious note mass hypnosis could induce large groups of people to believe something that didn't happen.

Also it can be used to make a large number of people to work non-stop like drones to perform a particular activity over long periods of time.

If Hitler could mass hypnotise a whole country,is it possible that the pharoans did the same?Did they trick the subjects in believing they were Gods?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnosis

Tribute- Dammage with his recent forum topic led me to think of this possibility.

[Harte]

AE built in golden ratio so they knew about it. Its fact. We have hard evidence for it.

The Golden Rectangle can be constructed using two sticks and a piece of string. The presence, then, of the Golden Rectangle is not, in itself, evidence of knowledge concerning the Golden Ratio per se, but evidence that the Egyptians knew how to do this simple geometric construction.

Harte

[Big Bad Voodoo]

The Golden Rectangle can be constructed using two sticks and a piece of string. The presence, then, of the Golden Rectangle is not, in itself, evidence of knowledge concerning the Golden Ratio per se, but evidence that the Egyptians knew how to do this simple geometric construction.

Harte

Im sorry to contradict you again but...

We cant know did our ancestors built buildings following golden ratio or golden ratio give pleasing proportions. So ancients built pleasing proportions that happens to be close to the number we know as golden ratio. But it suggest if they didnt have Euclid in mind, fact that they built something that follow those proportions, is insctinct in human being.

If so, from where that instinct comes?

Now look at your hands.

Edited September 27, 2012 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

...Pyramidologists since the nineteenth century have noted the presence of the golden ratio in the design of the ancient monuments. They note that the length of the base edges range from 755–756 feet while the height of the structure is 481.4 feet. Working out the math, the perpendicular bisector of the side of the pyramid comes out to 612 feet.[6] If we divide the slant height of the pyramid by half its base length, we get a ratio of 1.619, less than 1% from the golden ratio. This would also indicate that half the cross-section of the Khufu’s pyramid is in fact a Kepler’s triangle. Debate has broken out between prominent pyramidologists, including Temple Bell, Michael Rice, and John Taylor, over whether the presence of the golden ratio in the pyramids is due to design or chance. Of note, Rice contends that experts of Egyptian architecture have argued that ancient Egyptian architects have long known about the existence of the golden ratio. In addition, three other pyramidologists, Martin Gardner, Herbert Turnbull, and David Burton contend that:

Possible base:hypotenuse(b:a) ratios for the Pyramid of Khufu: 1:φ (Kepler’s Triangle), 3:5 (3-4-5 Triangle), and 1:4/π

Herodotus related in one passage that the Egyptian priests told him that the dimensions of the Great Pyramid were so chosen that the area of a square whose side was the height of the great pyramid equaled the area of the triangle.

This passage, if true, would undeniably prove the intentional presence of the golden ratio in the pyramids. However, the validity of this assertion is found to be questionable.[8] Critics of this golden ratio theory note that it is far more likely that the original Egyptian architects modeled the pyramid after the 3-4-5 triangle, rather than the Kepler’s triangle. According to the Rhind Mathematical Papyrus, an ancient papyrus that is the best example of Egyptian math dating back to the Second Intermediate Period of Egypt, the Egyptians certainly knew about and used the 3-4-5 triangle extensively in mathematics and architecture. While Kepler’s triangle has a face angle of 51°49’, the 3-4-5 triangle has a face angle of 53°8’, very close to the Kepler’s triangle.[9] Another triangle that is close is one whose perimeter is 2π the height such that the base to hypotenuse ratio is 1:4/π. With a face angle of 51°50’, it is also very similar to Kepler’s triangle. While the exact triangle the Egyptians chose to design their pyramids after remains unclear, the fact that the dimensions of pyramids correspond so strongly to a special right triangle suggest a strong mathematical influence in the last standing ancient wonder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics_and_art

[Harte]

Im sorry to contradict you again but...

We cant know did our ancestors built buildings following golden ratio or golden ratio give pleasing proportions. So ancients built pleasing proportions that happens to be close to the number we know as golden ratio. But it suggest if they didnt have Euclid in mind, fact that they built something that follow those proportions, is insctinct in human being.

If so, from where that instinct comes?

Now look at your hands.

It's also apparent in the growth patterns of the leaves on branches, the limbs on trees, etc.

The Fibonnacci sequence is apparent in growth patterns of all living things and several non-living (like some crystalline growth.)

Here's what I was talking about though:

A golden rectangle can be constructed with only straightedge and compass by this technique:

1. Construct a simple square
   
2. Draw a line from the midpoint of one side of the square to an opposite corner
   
3. Use that line as the radius to draw an arc that defines the height of the rectangle
   
4. Complete the golden rectangle.
   

Source

As you can see, the construction is very simple.

The "string" I mentioned was used instead of a compass, a technique the Egyptians were known to use to draw a circle.

The Egyptians had no knowledge of the golden ratio itself, as far as anyone knows. Early on, they had no inkling concerning the very concept of "ratio," as their angles were always measured using two numbers (rise and run we would call these today.)

Their knowledge of fractions was limited to "parts of wholes," which are always rational numbers. The Golden Ratio, being irrational (I know that sounds like a contradiction) was beyond their capabilites, just like pi.

But you can see here that they needed no knowledge about the ratio in order to create a golden rectangle. Just as you don't need to know the value (or nature) of pi in order to draw a circle.

Harte

[kmt_sesh]

...

But you can see here that they needed no knowledge about the ratio in order to create a golden rectangle. Just as you don't need to know the value (or nature) of pi in order to draw a circle.

Harte

LOL Much better worded than my explanations. This is what I was trying to say, although I wasn't as clear about it.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

It's also apparent in the growth patterns of the leaves on branches, the limbs on trees, etc.

The Fibonnacci sequence is apparent in growth patterns of all living things and several non-living (like some crystalline growth.)

Here's what I was talking about though:

Source

As you can see, the construction is very simple.

The "string" I mentioned was used instead of a compass, a technique the Egyptians were known to use to draw a circle.

The Egyptians had no knowledge of the golden ratio itself, as far as anyone knows. Early on, they had no inkling concerning the very concept of "ratio," as their angles were always measured using two numbers (rise and run we would call these today.)

Their knowledge of fractions was limited to "parts of wholes," which are always rational numbers. The Golden Ratio, being irrational (I know that sounds like a contradiction) was beyond their capabilites, just like pi.

But you can see here that they needed no knowledge about the ratio in order to create a golden rectangle. Just as you don't need to know the value (or nature) of pi in order to draw a circle.

Harte

You didnt understand me. I think thats because of Russian/Japanese english.

If they didnt knew about golden ratio and ancient egyptians built something that follow pleasing proportions that happens to be close to the number we know as golden ratio it suggest is insctinct in human being.

Fibonnacci sequence is in our nature. In Cosmos. In homo sapiens sapiens nature, mind and culture being aware of it or not. Then we can ask ourself from wher it comes.

Its in a sense symetry in asymetrical universe.

Edited September 27, 2012 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

LOL Much better worded than my explanations. This is what I was trying to say, although I wasn't as clear about it.

Its not only in pyramids.

And his logic dont follows.

If ancient didnt know about genes and biology they didnt knew who they kids were.Is that logic? No. But thats Harte view on which you loled.

Edited September 27, 2012 by the L

[Harte]

See, L, there's thing thing called heredity. You don't have to know anything at all about genes or biology to understand the concept of heredity.

You are proposing that there is some biological imperative for humans to "like" the golden rectangle?

That could be, but even then, the Egyptians and others would have come by this esoteric pleasure naturally, and wouldn't need any knowledge of science.

Personally, I think the fact that the golden rectangle can be divided infinitely but still appears in the result is the aspect that attracts people such as Ancient Egyptians to it. It is very similar to the concept of immortality and can be used to symbolize that and several other concepts concerning the capacity to remain, in the face of adversity, etc.

Harte

[cladking]

That could be, but even then, the Egyptians and others would have come by this esoteric pleasure naturally, and wouldn't need any knowledge of science.

Sure!

And they certainly wouldn't need any science to drag 6 1/2 million tons of tomb up ramps. Superstitious

bumpkins who never changed could do this. Heck, even making the pyramid 8-sided and placing granite

in intimate contact wouldnm't be at all difficult if you didn't have anything better to do with your life than to

spend it polishing a single rock.

The bottom line is orthodox opinion simply doesn't even really stand up to a cursory examination and the

more closely one looks the more one will realize there's no sense to it.

We have virtually no evidence of anything at all so we seem to just KNOW this means they didn't know any-

thing at all. We have "nefermaat is him who makes his writing in words that can't be erased" and from this

we have deduced that the ancients didn't know pi or the golden number. We have a 6th grade math book

from 700 years after the pyramids were built and we can't seem to quite understand it so we can infer that

the ancients couldn't do math beyond the 6th grade level. We much smarter than I ever imagined.

What we need to do is look at what they did and figure out how they did it and then we can begin to under-

stand what they knew and when they knew it. Until then it's just whistling past the graveyard and hoping we

don't learn anything we didn't want to know.

[questionmark]

Sure!

And they certainly wouldn't need any science to drag 6 1/2 million tons of tomb up ramps. Superstitious

bumpkins who never changed could do this. Heck, even making the pyramid 8-sided and placing granite

in intimate contact wouldnm't be at all difficult if you didn't have anything better to do with your life than to

spend it polishing a single rock.

It does not need any science to slide a stone over an oiled surface save knowing that oil is slippery.

And the bumpkins stuff is what you want to convince us of, most of us consider the ancient Egyptians pretty civilized and quite advanced for its age.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

That could be, but even then, the Egyptians and others would have come by this esoteric pleasure naturally, and wouldn't need any knowledge of science.

Do you think that is possible? That it come naturally...if so how come that some civilization didnt following golden ratio when built? Or is golden ratio hidden in their structures waiting to be discovered?

For me its logic to be natural. We called it Fibonacci like he discover it but he didnt. He took idea from North Africa from Berbers/Arbas who took it from India.

Its natural sequence about growth. Perfect proprtion. French mathmatichian Lucas called it Fibonacci number. Fibonacci introduce rabit problem. Sum of old pair and new pair.

1,1,2,3,5,6,13,21,44. 1+1=2; 1+2=3; 2+3=5 and so on. But idea was old as rock. Euclid explain how you could do golden ratio. Although Greeks said that was Pythagoras idea. Phidias made Parthenon with golden ratio.

When Kepler was puzzled with it , it wasnt called Fibonacci at all.

[cladking]

And the bumpkins stuff is what you want to convince us of, most of us consider the ancient Egyptians pretty civilized and quite advanced for its age.

Let me ask this; If orthodoxy won't allow them any knowledge that isn't demonstrated by

a few simple tools that survive isn't that the same as saying they were ignorant of almost

everything except how to hit something with a stone or how to measure with a ruler or plum

bob? If we don't understand the writing so chalk it up to religious mumbo jumbo is this not

exactly the same thing as calling them superstitious? If you are defining them as ignorant

and superstitious based on the "fact" that they only left spells and incantations and knew

only the most rudimentary tools then it's you calling them bumpkins based on an assumption

that the people never changed. It's based on the assumption that every tool they ever used

must be represented in a museum or it didn't exist.

Yet this is obviously and patently untrue. There was a huge metal shop at Giza and they

sure weren't just making chisels. Yet almost no meatal of any sort has ever been associated

with Giza. There was a bronze hook in the lower chamber southern airshaft and a piece of

"good steel" blasted out by Vyse but that's it. There's mention of molten lead in the culture

applied to the box of Osiris. Are we really supposed to believe that a huge metal shop did

nothing over the centuries other than make chisels, a hook, a single piece of steel, and melted

a little lead. I need a job there. Most people would never do anything at all during their en-

tire careers. Yet, the bodies show signs of heavy work!

None of it adds up and orthodox believers can claim it does forever and it still isn't going to

add up. Orthodoxy is wrong across the board. They are wrong about everything because

they tried to append the evidence to assumptions that are false. The people didn't need to

told not to walk in corpse drippings. They were not ignorant and superstitious. It is apparent

that they had a science that was based on observation rather than experiment. It was derived

from deduction rather than technology. It was confirmed by observation rather than experi-

ment. If nature, if the Gods, agreed with the observation then it became a part of the lang-

uage and the change was Thot who ruled over human progress and his consort who actually

added it to the language (the words of the Gods).

I'm not the one suggesting they were primitive, superstitious, and ignorant. I'm not the one sug-

gesting they needed to be told not to walk in corpse dripping; it would be Egyptology doing this.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

And sure I agree with previous post with you Harte that appears often in nature. In snails.

Plants in plant sections, Bananas have 3, Apples have 5,

Fibonacci numbers in flower petals

3Lilies

5Buttercups, Roses

8Delphinium

13Marigolds

21Black-eyed susans

34Pyrethrum

Also

In Leonardo da Vinci paints we are drawn to golden ratio,Dali use golden ratio in his paints

There are math mysteries about golden ratio that even modern math puzzled with. Maybe they have had advance math if it doenst came naturally.

For example,

Took three numbers of golden ratio as 2,3,5... 3x3=9 2x5=10 or 3,5,8...5x5=25 3x8=24 it always one more one less around first one.

And there are many interesting math situatitons about it.

[Big Bad Voodoo]