U.S. diplomatic offices attacked

[RavenHawk]

I would not say 500 years ago. Americans did things like that just in the history of our country...

I wouldn’t say exactly the same things. But I won’t argue that Americans (from Indians to Japanese) as have every culture in history have done similar things. From very trivial reasons to the more serious causes. But the world has matured from that, especially for the trivial reasons except the Islamic world. Should the rest of the world tolerate this from Muslims or put their cajones to the fire and demand that they grow up and join the rest of the world? Do we look the other way just because they are Muslim?

[CommunitarianKevin]

I wouldn’t say exactly the same things. But I won’t argue that Americans (from Indians to Japanese) as have every culture in history have done similar things. From very trivial reasons to the more serious causes. But the world has matured from that, especially for the trivial reasons except the Islamic world. Should the rest of the world tolerate this from Muslims or put their cajones to the fire and demand that they grow up and join the rest of the world? Do we look the other way just because they are Muslim?

The KKK did pretty much the exact same thing. You could legally lynch a black man until the 60s. Do I think the Muslim world is "behind?" Yes, much of it is...but not all of it. And this has to do with having the bat **** crazy ones as their leaders. I mean would we really be any different if we were living in a theocracy? Imagine if Pat Robertson was a dictator?

[RavenHawk]

There is just no pleasing people that want to hate Muslims...it is never good enough...

Go ahead and keep hating Muslims. I just wish people would realize the number of crazy ones are a small percentage but unfortunately they are the ones with most of the power in a lot of places...

I don’t want to hate Muslims, but their dogma prevents me from turning my back on them. I am the object of the hatred because I refuse to accept Allah’s authority and Mohammed as his prophet. That puts a target on my back.

How many people rioted after the Aurora shooting? Just wondering...

I saw a lot more than 30 out in protest of this in many locations across the country.

[odas]

Yes RavenHawk if you insult islam it is a capital offense in their eyes along with many other things. They see nothing wrong with murdering people over islam but lets not insult islam.

The funny thing is if they hadn't reacted like they did to this film I would of never heard of it along with millions of other people all over the world.

You are right. And exactley this reaction from muslims was the goal to promote the film.

Who on this forum is surprised by the reaction?

Noone. This was planned. And christians and muslims are on each other throats again while someone else is having a party.

Shame on us. Shame on muslims and christians for falling again in a trapp. You guys suck.

[CommunitarianKevin]

I don’t want to hate Muslims, but their dogma prevents me from turning my back on them. I am the object of the hatred because I refuse to accept Allah’s authority and Mohammed as his prophet. That puts a target on my back.

I saw a lot more than 30 out in protest of this in many locations across the country.

But see that is exactly the problem...there is hate for an entire group because of the actions of a few. If I use a few examples I could "justify" hate for pretty much any group of people...white people, black people, latinos, Christians, Muslims, Jews, atheists, Republicans, poor people, and the list goes on and on. So shall I hate everyone or should I keep reminding myself that most of them are good people? I prefer to think the latter is the best course to take to better our society.

Okay, so some people protested the shooting but it was not this huge nation-wide protest that people seem to expect from Muslims (not to mention many Muslims would be killed for doing that.)

[RavenHawk]

The KKK did pretty much the exact same thing. You could legally lynch a black man until the 60s.

Yes they did, but the KKK doesn’t drive the bus. Muslim Extremists drive their bus and the moderates do nothing but pay lip service.

Do I think the Muslim world is "behind?" Yes, much of it is...but not all of it. And this has to do with having the bat **** crazy ones as their leaders.

It’s not so much their leaders as it is their dogma, which all Muslims are indoctrinated into. It affects their mindset, even if they consider themselves benevolent to the beliefs of others. Nothing will change until there is significant reform in the Islamic world.

I mean would we really be any different if we were living in a theocracy? Imagine if Pat Robertson was a dictator?

If we were, it probably wouldn’t any different but the fact is is that we are not. Our Founding Fathers knew and understood the difference between faith and religion. When people say we are a Christian nation, it is not referring to a “state” as it is with Islam. It’s interesting that one could consider Pat Roberson as a dictator but not Obama…

[CommunitarianKevin]

Yes they did, but the KKK doesn’t drive the bus. Muslim Extremists drive their bus and the moderates do nothing but pay lip service.

Actually they kind of did. Read up on the history of religion in the United States. Major religious leaders and politicians were backed by and had KKK members up on the stage with them. The KKK was extemely powerful and were involved with the nations top political figures.

It’s not so much their leaders as it is their dogma, which all Muslims are indoctrinated into. It affects their mindset, even if they consider themselves benevolent to the beliefs of others. Nothing will change until there is significant reform in the Islamic world.

This is just simply wrong. Some Muslim countries have almost as many rights as the U.S. does. You are generalizing and it is incorrect. They have amazing scholars in those parts of the world, many of which move the U.S. and become valuble members of society.

If we were, it probably wouldn’t any different but the fact is is that we are not. Our Founding Fathers knew and understood the difference between faith and religion. When people say we are a Christian nation, it is not referring to a “state” as it is with Islam. It’s interesting that one could consider Pat Roberson as a dictator but not Obama…

You just assume it would not be any different? Are you totally ignorant of anything that happened before you were born? How do you know that is what the founding fathers thought? Obama is not a religious fundamentalist.

[RavenHawk]

But see that is exactly the problem...there is hate for an entire group because of the actions of a few.

That’s what I’m saying. I and many like me (Christian) that are hated. And our action is merely being Christian. Then when we point this out, we get labeled racists and bigots.

If I use a few examples I could "justify" hate for pretty much any group of people...white people, black people, latinos, Christians, Muslims, Jews, atheists, Republicans, poor people, and the list goes on and on. So shall I hate everyone or should I keep reminding myself that most of them are good people? I prefer to think the latter is the best course to take to better our society.

It takes two to not hate. One side can’t remain in a position of trying not to hate if you are constantly being attacked by the other trying to dominate you by the will of Allah. They may be good and benevolent people but they are still going to follow their heart and dogma. If that is counter to your lifestyle, you have to defend yourself.

Okay, so some people protested the shooting but it was not this huge nation-wide protest that people seem to expect from Muslims (not to mention many Muslims would be killed for doing that.)

Well there you go. A shooting spree is hardly equivalent to changing a mindset bent on domination. So yes, if the Muslims claim that they want to live in harmony, then they are going to have to come half way. But without Islamic reform, that will never happen

[CommunitarianKevin]

That’s what I’m saying. I and many like me (Christian) that are hated. And our action is merely being Christian. Then when we point this out, we get labeled racists and bigots.

It takes two to not hate. One side can’t remain in a position of trying not to hate if you are constantly being attacked by the other trying to dominate you by the will of Allah. They may be good and benevolent people but they are still going to follow their heart and dogma. If that is counter to your lifestyle, you have to defend yourself.

So your answer is hate them because you are hated, use violence because they do? Have you ever heard of Gandi or Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.? They, and their followers, managed to make things work and achieve their goals without violence and while being attacked. If they used the same tactics as the other side, they would have gotten no where.

Edit: Also, I know what it is like to be hated. I was much of my life. Not only am I hated by many Muslims but I am hated by many Christians because I do not believe in a god. Funny enough atheists do not care much for me either. I could kill myself, kill others, or just be a bitter *******, but I am not...because I choose not to be.

Edited September 12, 2012 by HuttonEtAl

[RavenHawk]

Actually they kind of did. Read up on the history of religion in the United States. Major religious leaders and politicians were backed by and had KKK members up on the stage with them. The KKK was extemely powerful and were involved with the nations top political figures.

They kind of did isn’t the same as the extremists have in Islam. Just because you can find examples elsewhere doesn’t change the fact that Islamic extremist are calling the shots and the moderates are incapable or unwilling to do anything about them. The KKK has had its heyday and as long as their doctrine remains in the light, they will only be a minor entity. In Islam, the core beliefs are the same for moderates and extremists alike. Extremist have the courage to act on their faith.

This is just simply wrong. Some Muslim countries have almost as many rights as the U.S. does. You are generalizing and it is incorrect. They have amazing scholars in those parts of the world, many of which move the U.S. and become valuble members of society.

Claiming that I am generalizing is hardly a counter to what I am saying. Having rights isn’t the issue. If you understand Islam, being Muslim assures equal rights. If you are not Muslim, you do not have equal rights. You are subordinate. If they are so amazing then why are they coming to America? Do they reject their faith? As atheists in this country reject the Christian faith? But the thing is is that said atheists will never really get away from the faith they were brought up in. The same will be for these amazing scholars or even a Major from Ft Hood.

You just assume it would not be any different? Are you totally ignorant of anything that happened before you were born? How do you know that is what the founding fathers thought? Obama is not a religious fundamentalist.

I’m not just assuming, I’m agreeing with you. I know what they thought because I’ve studied what they wrote. No, I can’t say I know what any one individual really thought, but through their writings, it’s pretty clear what they intended. Obama doesn’t have to be a religious fundamentalist to still be a dictator wannabe.

[CommunitarianKevin]

They kind of did isn’t the same as the extremists have in Islam. Just because you can find examples elsewhere doesn’t change the fact that Islamic extremist are calling the shots and the moderates are incapable or unwilling to do anything about them. The KKK has had its heyday and as long as their doctrine remains in the light, they will only be a minor entity. In Islam, the core beliefs are the same for moderates and extremists alike. Extremist have the courage to act on their faith.

Claiming that I am generalizing is hardly a counter to what I am saying. Having rights isn’t the issue. If you understand Islam, being Muslim assures equal rights. If you are not Muslim, you do not have equal rights. You are subordinate. If they are so amazing then why are they coming to America? Do they reject their faith? As atheists in this country reject the Christian faith? But the thing is is that said atheists will never really get away from the faith they were brought up in. The same will be for these amazing scholars or even a Major from Ft Hood.

I’m not just assuming, I’m agreeing with you. I know what they thought because I’ve studied what they wrote. No, I can’t say I know what any one individual really thought, but through their writings, it’s pretty clear what they intended. Obama doesn’t have to be a religious fundamentalist to still be a dictator wannabe.

You just keep trying to point out why my examples are irrelevant and why you are right. You are not even trying to consider the other side of the argument, you are dogmatic in your beliefs...

Saying you are generalizing is a counter...because you are. You are making a large assumption for an entire group of people. It's like me saying Republicans are bigots or Republicans are religious fundamentalists. Though many are, that is hardly a true statement.

You know who is worse than those dirty Muslims though? Those damn atheists...I mean Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot? It's just a matter of time before Dawkins and his followers start planning the extermination of religious people...

Oh and leave Obama out of this. There is no reason you need to bring him into this converstation and if you do, you will crash and burn in that argument. If you want to argue about that PM me...

Edited September 12, 2012 by HuttonEtAl

[RavenHawk]

So your answer is hate them because you are hated, use violence because they do?

No that is not the answer, but in order to defend yourself, violence is the only answer to violence. Just because you don’t believe in violence doesn’t mean the other side will not use violent to dominate you and force you to submit to Allah.

Have you ever heard of Gandi or Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.? They, and their followers, managed to make things work and achieve their goals without violence and while being attacked. If they used the same tactics as the other side, they would have gotten no where.

No, I’ve never heard of them. Geez! For what it’s worth, I’ve been to the mountain top with King. I was there and saw what he saw and you’ll never be able to convince me that I wasn’t. Call it out-of-body or what, I don’t know?? But if King or Gandhi had done the same in an Islamic state, they would have been put to death. Their kind of civil disobedience only works within a society willing and able to hear the message. In the case of Gandhi, this is one reason why there is a Pakistan today. Too many didn’t want to be part of the message, they wanted their own state as India got her independence. They are not allowed to partner other authority with Allah.

Edit: Also, I know what it is like to be hated. I was much of my life. Not only am I hated by many Muslims but I am hated by many Christians because I do not believe in a god. Funny enough atheists do not care much for me either. I could kill myself, kill others, or just be a bitter *******, but I am not...because I choose not to be.

Just because you choose not to be is easy, but now do that with that 10% of Muslims that are extremists and then try to reform the faith so that more are not created.

[+OverSword]

https://twitter.com/...1469184/photo/1

Thank you for posting that picture Hutton.

[CommunitarianKevin]

No that is not the answer, but in order to defend yourself, violence is the only answer to violence.

until it isn't...like I said, Gandi and MLKjr...You said in a Muslim country they would have been put to death...incase you forgot, both were assassinated. That is kind of like being put to death, right? Both accomplished their goals.

Thank you for posting that picture Hutton.

No problem. Glad someone appreciates it

[+and-then]

http://www.foxnews.c...ne-at-benghazi/

The Libyan attack seems to have been pre planned and coordinated. Killing our Ambassador was an act of war. Two US destroyers are being positioned off the coast of Benghazi. I doubt seriously that Obama will answer this crime but I hope it costs him what he holds most dearly if he doesn't.

New protests are underway in Cairo as well.

Edited September 12, 2012 by and then

[CommunitarianKevin]

http://www.foxnews.c...ne-at-benghazi/

The Libyan attack seems to have been pre planned and coordinated. Killing our Ambassador was an act of war. Two US destroyers are of the coast of Benghazi. I doubt seriously that Obama will answer this crime but I hope it costs him what he holds most dearly if he doesn't.

New protests are underway in Cairo as well.

What does he hold most dearly?

[meryt-tetisheri]

http://www.foxnews.c...ne-at-benghazi/

The Libyan attack seems to have been pre planned and coordinated. Killing our Ambassador was an act of war. Two US destroyers are being positioned off the coast of Benghazi. I doubt seriously that Obama will answer this crime but I hope it costs him what he holds most dearly if he doesn't.

New protests are underway in Cairo as well.

One of the first Islamists to call for demonstrations was Nader Bakkar of the Salafi El Nour party, as well as the younger brother of al Qaida's Zawahry. The Mb's & Mursi's postponed response to the film was criticized especially by salafis as putting politics before "standing up for the prophet". The salafis pulled the rug from under their feet. The MB & FJP are therefore calling for fresh 'peaceful' demonstrations next Friday. There is a real hidden political agenda at play here, the competition between the two main Islamist parties for the "most pious" prize before next month's election & constitution referendum. All parties have condemned the killing of the American ambassador.

[+and-then]

What does he hold most dearly?

What all presidents do, the power of the office. I hope it costs him the election.

[+and-then]

One of the first Islamists to call for demonstrations was Nader Bakkar of the Salafi El Nour party, as well as the younger brother of al Qaida's Zawahry. The Mb's & Mursi's postponed response to the film was criticized especially by salafis as putting politics before "standing up for the prophet". The salafis pulled the rug from under their feet. The MB & FJP are therefore calling for fresh 'peaceful' demonstrations next Friday. There is a real hidden political agenda at play here, the competition between the two main Islamist parties for the "most pious" prize before next month's election & constitution referendum. All parties have condemned the killing of the American ambassador.

The news here is that the two are separate situations entirely. The Libyan attack is seen as pre planned and scheduled for 9-11. The Egyptian assault seemed spontaneous. However - assaulting Embassies is an act of war and as such are dangerous acts. If the custom of inviolate safety of Embassies abroad is allowed to be eroded then Diplomacy among nations will be impossible. The LAST thing we need in the current situations we find ourselves in. No contingent of security can really protect an outpost such as this. If the rules become null and void then we go down a very dangerous road.

[Ashotep]

There is just no pleasing people that want to hate Muslims...it is never good enough...

Go ahead and keep hating Muslims. I just wish people would realize the number of crazy ones are a small percentage but unfortunately they are the ones with most of the power in a lot of places...

How many people rioted after the Aurora shooting? Just wondering...

I don't hate muslims but when they do stuff like this its hard not to. When the Aurora shooting happened the responsible party was arrested, no so here and won't be. Really a very bad comparison.

[Dan'O]

https://twitter.com/...1469184/photo/1

Thank you Hut.

[meryt-tetisheri]

The news here is that the two are separate situations entirely. The Libyan attack is seen as pre planned and scheduled for 9-11. The Egyptian assault seemed spontaneous. However - assaulting Embassies is an act of war and as such are dangerous acts. If the custom of inviolate safety of Embassies abroad is allowed to be eroded then Diplomacy among nations will be impossible. The LAST thing we need in the current situations we find ourselves in. No contingent of security can really protect an outpost such as this. If the rules become null and void then we go down a very dangerous road.

Yes they seem to be separate situations, and I agree with you about the danger of attacking embassies, but the whole film thing is being used to settle domestic political scores. They never realize that playing with fire is dangerous until things get out of hand!

[Ashotep]

Now they are saying there is no such person as Sam Bacile. That name is a pseudonym and he isn't Israeli or jewish.

Identity of anti-Muslim filmmaker called into question

Iran is also planning a protest in front of the Swedish embassy. My thoughts are is that Sam Bacile is Egyptian and they should be protesting in front of the Egyptian embassy.

Iran plans protests over anti-Islam film

[CommunitarianKevin]

What all presidents do, the power of the office. I hope it costs him the election.

The power of office or having the best paying job the government offers? Yes, lets shame him for wanting the best paying job...

I don't hate muslims but when they do stuff like this its hard not to. When the Aurora shooting happened the responsible party was arrested, no so here and won't be. Really a very bad comparison.

A bad comparison? Why? Because Libya does not have the police force to arrest the offenders? I'm pretty sure if they could get a hold of the people responsible, they would hang them...

[Ashotep]

https://twitter.com/...1469184/photo/1

Thanks for posting this picture. It good to see not all muslims think what happened was okay.