GlitterRose Posted March 6, 2016 #776 Share Posted March 6, 2016 Possibly... But I'm still not 100% convinced the letter was real - or accurately reported... Who do you think would have benefited from that? Certainly, not the counselors. That makes them look like they were negligent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted March 7, 2016 #777 Share Posted March 7, 2016 (Last night, I was going through my notes on this case- rather extensive notes... ) and in the middle of the pre-trial testimonies, I'd written out a recipe for 'Peanut Butter Cake'... ) Anyway.... I have it that according to a newspaper account of info from the civil trial (brought by a couple of the parents against the girl scout org., Magic Empire) there was a note found in an empty donut box, a box which was brought to the camp by "a friend". The note was ultimately considered as a prank- (I think mainly because) the note contained "scribblings" about martians- and was thrown away by a Magic Empire worker. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aftermath Posted March 7, 2016 #778 Share Posted March 7, 2016 I believe, regardless of the validity of the note, the security of the camp was very, very loose under the circumstances. Those circumstances were: (1) a suspicious vehicle is seen outside the camp gate on Sunday evening, (2) a report of a potential intruder and the vandalism to two tents at the Kiowa unit the week prior, (3) a gate in close proximity of the Kiowa unit is unsupervised, and (4) the report of an actual intruder (i.e., person entered an occupied tent) the summer before. No additional security procedures or actions were taken to secure the camp. So very negligent; no matter whether a note was found or not... no matter if a found note was a sick joke or real threat. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taun Posted March 7, 2016 Author #779 Share Posted March 7, 2016 It's very easy to take issue with their security these days... But we are much more security conscious these days because of this event... Until this happened it was unthinkable to the people of the day that it could happen... It was different time, with different ways of seeing things - or not seeing things sometimes... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aftermath Posted March 7, 2016 #780 Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) *backs away quietly* Edited March 7, 2016 by Aftermath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boadicea1 Posted March 8, 2016 #781 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Hi Boadicea and welcome to the thread... I will try to answer your questions as best I can, and if anyone else reading this feels the need to correct me - please do... "How many tents were there?" There were eight sleeping tents... Seven for the scouts and one for the camps counselors... That is where the "tent #8" confusion comes from, as the victims tent - while actually called tent #7 - was the last one in the line and therefore the eighth tent.. There was also a supply tent that apparently partially blocked the view of the victims tent from the counselors... All of the scouts tents were set up for 4 girls each... But due to some confusion about another girls age (due to her birthday falling in a "grey period") she was in another camp that night - scheduled to join them in the morning... She would have been the fourth girl in the victims tent... There was (is?) a Boy Scout camp not too far from there (a mile or so away from what I gather)... On another site, someone wrote in claiming to have been one of the boy scouts at that camp at that time and stating that some boys had snuck off that night to "raid" the Girl Scout Camp... What with the crappy weather, it being the first night of camp, etc... I feel he was either "telling stories" or was "told stories to"... I don't feel that a "raid" took place that night... I think it was just a red herring as they say... I don't believe that Hart had ever been found with any form of pornography... At least none appears to have been mentioned... He was tied to that one wedding photo he took and developed in prison, but that was the only photo or other image type object mentioned in the case... To be honest, the age of the victims is the one (and only) thing that makes me have any doubts about Hart being involved... To the best of my knowledge, there had been no similar crimes (abduction/rape/murder) in that area prior to that... But rapes were not always reported back then (or now days either for that matter) and that part of the state is a pretty good area for hiding bodies... - So who knows... His previous crime (abduction of two adult women - and leaving them in a position where they would die) was actually rather close in MO to this one - except for the victims ages... While previously he did not strike and kill his victims, perhaps this time he was expecting to find the adult counselor, was startled by one of the children waking up and seeing him.. and panicked... I don't know... But I can see how he might have done it - despite the MO difference... As to why he would leave the protection of his supporters... He had a fetish for women's glasses (noted in the books)... Perhaps his fetish for glasses (and who knows what else) got the better of him... And while he was surviving in that area - with some support - I really don't think he was too "comfortable"... How could he be?... He knew the sheriff was looking for him (due to his jail break earlier) - so he couldn't really go anywhere or do much with other people... He must have known that his mother's house was being watched (perhaps not a full stakeout - but checked periodically) so he was largely cut off from everyone he knew - except for the medicine man he sort of lived with... As to the murder weapon used on the two youngest girls... I don't recall them ever really saying what it was - just blunt force trauma,,, I don't remember about the purse that was taken - whether it was recovered or not... Money seems to have either been a very small amount or not taken.. I can't recall.. I hope someone else can jump in and jog this old coots memory... So all the other tents had four girls sleeping then? And there was supposedly a supply tent blocking view from the counsellors tent? It makes you think the killer (Hart or not) had been watching the camp before the murders and had picked the victims beforehand, perhaps because of the number and because of the tent being somewhat out of the way. However, he/she/they wouldn't have possibly known about there being three to the tent instead of four which cancels that thought out. In fact the killer may not have known at all how many people there were to a tent at all. Or (As I don't know a thing about scout camps) is it a rule of thumb for scout camps that tent sizes are usually the same, thus the number is usually four sleeping? If so, I suppose it still wouldn't explain the thought above, if, forgive me, I am making any sense at all. It sounds right when you think it to yourself, you know. Yes, it makes me doubt Hart's guilt as well, despite some of the evidence that was against him. The two women he kidnapped and raped, were they bound and gagged? Left for dead. Were they beaten, etc? (Note to self: Read up on this) I cannot see how you go from kidnap and rape of women to murdering three children. Okay, so we can, say, that perhaps Hart had abused children beforehand or even committed a murder we don't know about but I doubt it very much. I don't see someone raping and kidnapping women and turning to children. It seems very deliberate as well with the photo being left behind. A bit easy to tie the crime to Hart, too simple. Killers do get sloppy but there seems to be a lot of sloppiness and almost clues left behind to link the crime to Hart. Suspicious absolutely. I still don't see how (If Hart did go the camp with the intention to steal) then murders three girls. Unless he wandered into their tent and one of them was awake. He stopped them before they could cry out. However, was it not noted that some of the other girls said a man peered into their tent. Why were they then not silenced if we assume it was because one of the girls may have been murdered for this reason and then the other two to silence them upon wakening. So we have items that were stolen - Some found and others never again (Purses, glasses, etc) Some of the girls reported hearing strange sounds - Moaning. Grunting, etc. (Was there a time given on the girls hearing these sounds?) One of the counsellors got up at one point because some of the girls were being noisy (Was it one thirty? I can't remember) A group of girls went to the toilet at some time (Was a time given?) Also, in regards to the photo's it was mentioned way back that Hart couldn't have possibly had the photo's when he escaped as the sheriff has these locked away. Who confirmed the above? What was the sheriffs comment on that too? And the boy scout camp, was the councillor's there questioned at all? Were any statements given. Anything they noted to be out of the ordinary. They may have been a mile away from the girls but I would expect there was questions asked. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regeneratia Posted March 8, 2016 #782 Share Posted March 8, 2016 I went to camp in the '70s, and a couple of us were able to slip away and go off hiking on our own. We were really too young to do that, and we were very lucky we didn't get ourselves lost or hurt. Anything could have happened, but nothing did. When we got back, the camp counselors didn't even realize we were ever missing. I guess it was just the '70s, and people weren't thinking much about predators. I did the same thing as a counselor, roam around at night. I an assure you, the counselors were thinking about predators. The kids just didn't have the physical brain capacity to understand the totality of the dangers. They were more interested in which counselor sat with them at meal times. "Finns, Finns, sit with us!" I can also assure you we had guns at the camp. I am sure counselors at girl scout camps today have them nearby as well. We also rigged traps around the camp that would make noise and alert us that there was something afoot (pardon the pun). We brought dogs into the camp as well. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hca Posted January 16, 2017 #783 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Does anyone wonder why Doris seemed to suffer more than the other two girls? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taun Posted January 17, 2017 Author #784 Share Posted January 17, 2017 On 1/15/2017 at 7:44 PM, Hca said: Does anyone wonder why Doris seemed to suffer more than the other two girls? Hello Hca and welcome to UM and this thread.... Perhaps Doris received more brutal treatment because she was the oldest and largest of the three - or perhaps because of where her cot was placed, or she woke up and made more of a struggle... I don't know... This crime is very frustrating to me for several reasons - the age of the girls (and I'll admit to being enough of a chauvinist to say the gender of the victims tears at me as well), the brutality and senselessness of the crime, the media circus that followed - and the total screw up of the investigation... I seriously doubt that there will ever be a full solution to this - and that bothers me as well... I haven't posted on this for quite some time and to be honest I tend to forget this thread is here in the course of my rather disjointed and willy-nilly nature on the internet.. I apologize to those that still read up on it - after all I did create the thing, but I really don't know what else to say about it at this point... I would really be interested in actually walking the site - but it is private land and the owner(s) have pretty steadfastedly refused permission for visits - and I can't really blame them I guess... Regi has some really great insights into this (and other crime threads) and I really appreciate her input to this - as I do nearly everyone who has posted in this thread... I am still "following" this thread and I promise to peek in every once and a while to read what everyone has to say and/or think - but as for me.... I've reached a wall that I can't seem to get over on this and - for now anyway - I have nothing new to add... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cluey Posted January 19, 2017 #785 Share Posted January 19, 2017 It was incredibly irresponsible.......in the same token....in the 70's.....stranger danger was not a talked about thing as such.........i remember being young in that time,and,being alert was just being talked to kids and parents........ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmw1302 Posted June 25, 2017 #786 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Has anyone considered that the Girl Scouts weren't necessarily the target initially? Suppose the killer, who wouldn't necessarily know the tent layout, was looking for the counselors tent but became disoriented out in the dark and rainy night. Might explain why it was reported by one tent that a male looked in with a flashlight then moved along quickly. Maybe when he popped his head into tent 7, two of the girls heard him and reacted. At that point he would have had to kill the two that reacted quickly, and was able to silence the third before she was able to react audibly. Could also explain why the ME found no definitive signs of rape. The girls weren't his type... he was looking for the counselors. Personally, I do believe it was done by Gene Leroy Hart. Sometimes in law enforcement, the most obvious theory happens to be correct. I find it alarming and unconscionable that he was believed to be in the general Locust Grove area for 4 years after his prison escape and the authorities never found him. Why would he not leave leave the area once and for all? Perhaps he'd always harbored plans to do what he did at the camp but was waiting for the perfect opportunity. Seems like a huge gamble to hang around the area you grew up after escaping from prison. Yes, I realize he had friends and family in the area to help hide him, but it would have taken only one credible sighting to bring his running days to an end. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmw1302 Posted June 25, 2017 #787 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Actually, I just caught up in reading this entire thread and noticed that Taun has indeed floated the same idea I stated above back in post #742. I still find it as plausible a theory as any other I've heard, and yes, I do believe it could have all been done by one man. For quite some time, I believed that GLH did not act alone, but the more I've thought about it, the more I am now convinced he was indeed the lone killer. Still certainly open minded about other theories or opinions though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curiousguy Posted July 17, 2017 #788 Share Posted July 17, 2017 (edited) Curious as to how Carla Wilhite, counselor, was eliminated as a suspect. In reading Someone Cry For The Children, it seems that she was actively involved, many times solo, in investigating lights and sounds, tent checks, and seemingly fearless even though "you couldn't see your hand in front of your face without a light." That seems unusual for a teenager, male or female. Also, I believe that Wilhite testified in a civil trial that she hurt her back lifting sailboats just prior to camp starting. Guessing she is fairly strong. Also, the terry cloth rag found with Milner was described as wrapped in the form of a phallyc symbol. There was a lot of back and forth over the sperm...whether there was any, that it "might be", etc. According to investigators, there was vaginal intrusion with each girl (possibly female???). Wilhite was up throughout the night and in her testimony, said she woke up around 30 minutes before her alarm (set for 6 a.m.) went off, and quietly slipped out so not to wake anyone, headed to the shower, and then came upon the bodies. Also, I've read that a wet towel with what appeared to be blood on it, was found hanging on the counselor's tent. Not sure if her sexuality was ever questioned as part of the investigation, but in light of not knowing that, it seems that Wilhite had opportunity and possible motive and definitely deserves a deeper look. She is on social media and in light of her traumatic experiences, seems to have moved through life and has become quite successful. Just seems like that era had everyone assuming it was a male...and maybe it was...maybe. Edited July 17, 2017 by curiousguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted July 20, 2017 #789 Share Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) On 6/24/2017 at 8:41 PM, Cmw1302 said: Has anyone considered that the Girl Scouts weren't necessarily the target initially? Suppose the killer, who wouldn't necessarily know the tent layout, was looking for the counselors tent but became disoriented out in the dark and rainy night. Well first, I think the perp (I'll refer to just one perp for simplicity) was familiar with the camp because there's evidence he'd been there before... items from burglaries at Shroff's place had been found on the campgrounds before the murders. (Btw, you may already know, items used in the murders and later found in caves were also among items reported stolen from Shroff's.) I don't think it would have been difficult for the perp to have quickly distinguished between counselor's and children's tents. It appears to me there was such distinction made at some point, since all of the items reported missing from the camp after the murders were from counselor's tents located in three different units. On 6/25/2017 at 4:10 AM, Cmw1302 said: For quite some time, I believed that GLH did not act alone, but the more I've thought about it, the more I am now convinced he was indeed the lone killer. I've never been convinced of Hart's involvement, regardless, there's evidence that there was more than one person involved, evidence such as two distinct shoe prints of two different sizes which were unmatched, and a finger print from the flashlight that to my knowledge, remains unmatched. On 7/17/2017 at 1:22 PM, curiousguy said: Curious as to how Carla Wilhite, counselor, was eliminated as a suspect. To me, just the circumstance of evidence linking the caves (or maybe it was just one cave- I can't remember) to the murders is strong enough to eliminate her as a potential suspect. Edited July 20, 2017 by regi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curiousguy Posted July 20, 2017 #790 Share Posted July 20, 2017 On Monday, July 17, 2017 at 1:22 PM, curiousguy said: Curious as to how Carla Wilhite, counselor, was eliminated as a suspect. In reading Someone Cry For The Children, it seems that she was actively involved, many times solo, in investigating lights and sounds, tent checks, and seemingly fearless even though "you couldn't see your hand in front of your face without a light." That seems unusual for a teenager, male or female. Also, I believe that Wilhite testified in a civil trial that she hurt her back lifting sailboats just prior to camp starting. Guessing she is fairly strong. Also, the terry cloth rag found with Milner was described as wrapped in the form of a phallyc symbol. There was a lot of back and forth over the sperm...whether there was any, that it "might be", etc. According to investigators, there was vaginal intrusion with each girl (possibly female???). Wilhite was up throughout the night and in her testimony, said she woke up around 30 minutes before her alarm (set for 6 a.m.) went off, and quietly slipped out so not to wake anyone, headed to the shower, and then came upon the bodies. Also, I've read that a wet towel with what appeared to be blood on it, was found hanging on the counselor's tent. Not sure if her sexuality was ever questioned as part of the investigation, but in light of not knowing that, it seems that Wilhite had opportunity and possible motive and definitely deserves a deeper look. She is on social media and in light of her traumatic experiences, seems to have moved through life and has become quite successful. Just seems like that era had everyone assuming it was a male...and maybe it was...maybe. Sheriff Pete Weaver made almost immediately named GLH as the primary suspect and didn't like the fact that Hart had escaped from his jail twice...plus he was facing an upcoming election. There was little to no investigation of other possible suspects. The photos in the cave of the women were seen in the sheriff's desk by a former deputy. Think it's likely that there was some planting of evidence. Mainly just curious what eliminated someone who had contact with the 3 girls, was awake much of the night, possibly the last person who saw them, and stumbled upon the body of D. Milner. The footprints may be some type of clue, but it doesn't seem that the crime scene was secure at all. Just think there are others that deserve a deeper look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted July 20, 2017 #791 Share Posted July 20, 2017 58 minutes ago, curiousguy said: The footprints may be some type of clue, but it doesn't seem that the crime scene was secure at all. I'm not sure there would have been many people to have compared them against, but according to pre-trial testimony, one of those prints matched those at one of the caves, a burglary at Shroff's, and a burglary at T & H Grocery in Sam's Corner. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted July 20, 2017 #792 Share Posted July 20, 2017 I hadn't realized an anniversary of the crime had recently passed... Here's a current news item. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aftermath Posted August 10, 2017 #793 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Not only do footprints found at the scene match Hart's, hair collected at the scene match Hart too. Gene Hart's hair is a mixed racial type with more Mongoloid characteristics (i.e., Native American). The hairs found on Milner's pajama top, retrieved from the tape on Milner's hands, as well as hairs collected from Tent 7 can all be classified as Mongoloid with some Caucasian characteristics. OSBI Forensic Chemist Ann Reed performed the hair comparisons and testified in court to this. However, there were Caucasian hairs found on the bodies of the girls, on the tape, and on the tent floor ... this may point to a second person with Hart that night. Unfortunately, you cannot determine sex from hair samples and comparisons were not conducted for Carla Wilhite, Dee Elder, Barbara Day, Ben Woodward, Mary Ann Alaback, or anyone else present in and around the tent or crime scene ... therefore we don't know who those Caucasian hairs belong to. Just a little more food for thought, Celia Stall (Assistant Unit Leader for Quapaw) testified a couple of Quapaw campers saw something during the night: a couple of men behind their tents and one over by the latrine. Beverly Hough (investigator for the D.A.'s Office) testified she interviewed Christine Jones, a Girl Scout at Quapaw Unit, and Christine told her counselor that she heard some male voices that night. More to think about, "special" tracking dogs were flown in from Pennsylvania to assist in the investigation. The first tracking event lead investigators to Mr. Jack Shroff's residence. And in a second tracking "mission" conducted, the dogs returned to the Shroff residence. The dogs didn't track to any of the caves in the area. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curiousguy Posted August 11, 2017 #794 Share Posted August 11, 2017 I read that it was known that Shroff was just at his country home on weekends. I think it's plausible that people at the camp could have taken things from his residence if the crime was planned. A camper also said that a tent flap was pulled back on her tent and a "large figure" shined a flashlight into her tent, then closed the flap. The beer bottles found at the camp were believed to have also been taken from the Shroff home. I also wonder if it is possible that counselors could have been mistaken for men. It is my understanding that female DNA was also recovered from the crime scene. It is also interesting that not all counselors took a polygraph test. Not saying she did it, but it stood out to me in rereading Someone Cry for the Children, how brave that Wilhite seemed to be exploring mysterious lights and sounds by herself, and how she was awake late and woke up before everyone else. Would like to know exactly how she was eliminated as a suspect. Sloppy investigation and not a secure crime scene. If a person from within did it, there was opportunity to hide evidence when they left the camp to divert campers from the crime scene. Just hope technology and a deeper look can eventually solve this. It is interesting how the dogs keyed in on the Shroff site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted November 5, 2022 #795 Share Posted November 5, 2022 @Taun Talk about resurrecting a dead thread. I knew this thread existed but no matter how I tried the search engine, I got nothing. I found it by googling 3 girl scouts killed camp scott unexplained mysteries. Anyway, I looked because I just watched 20/20 last night and they did a program about this as in June it will be 45 years since the killings. Officially this case is still open because Hart was found not guilty at his trial. They did interviews with the girls' parents and others who were involved with the investigation and reporting. They've done more modern DNA testing on evidence (it's still packed away) and the current sheriff is convinced that Hart is the one who killed the girls. I've never forgotten this case. There's a lot of new info out there now. The current sheriff has been looking over this case for the last 9 years. He just released the results of DNA testing done in 2019. He has no doubt it was Hart. This testing ruled out every other suspect that had been brought up. They still will not close the case officially until LE, the families, the DA's office and OSBI meets and comes to a unanimous decision that they have proven the case. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted November 5, 2022 #796 Share Posted November 5, 2022 Actress Kristin Chenoweth was also on the 20/20 program. She was supposed to be at that camp but got sick and didn't go. If 20/20 posts the program somewhere I will put it in the thread. https://nypost.com/2022/05/18/kristin-chenoweth-escaped-being-a-1977-girl-scout-murder-victim/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taun Posted November 6, 2022 Author #797 Share Posted November 6, 2022 @susieice I saw that they were doing a special on this case, but missed it (I rarely watch TV anymore). While I am no expert on this, I also still think that Hart was directly involved in it - if not solely responsible. My reasoning hasn't changed since I stated them in this thread earlier. Basically, none of the other suspects made sense to me. I never knew that about Kristin Chenoweth (or if I did I forgot). That's very interesting, and just shows how relatively minor events in our lives can have such massive effects. I'm sure that not being able to go to camp was a big disappointment to her at the time, yet potentially saved her life - or at the very least saved her from a horrid situation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted November 7, 2022 #798 Share Posted November 7, 2022 9 hours ago, Taun said: @susieice I saw that they were doing a special on this case, but missed it (I rarely watch TV anymore). While I am no expert on this, I also still think that Hart was directly involved in it - if not solely responsible. My reasoning hasn't changed since I stated them in this thread earlier. Basically, none of the other suspects made sense to me. I never knew that about Kristin Chenoweth (or if I did I forgot). That's very interesting, and just shows how relatively minor events in our lives can have such massive effects. I'm sure that not being able to go to camp was a big disappointment to her at the time, yet potentially saved her life - or at the very least saved her from a horrid situation. I didn't realize the thread went on into later years like it did. I always thought that Hart must have had an accomplice but even this new sheriff says no. None of the DNA linked to any other suspect but Hart. I've started reading through it and the case still seems so strange. I want to read the entries I haven't read previously. I knew the 20/20 story was coming on and it's also being shown on Hulu. In June it was 45 yrs ago that this happened and it's a case no one in Oklahoma has ever forgotten. Neither have I. It sounds like LE is pretty sure the jury acquitted a guilty man. Hart died in prison not long after but he never said a word about the murders. He took it to his grave. If 20/20 puts the show online I'll post it in here. They usually do. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scholar4Truth Posted November 9, 2022 #799 Share Posted November 9, 2022 Wasn't Friday the 13th loosely based on this case? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taun Posted November 9, 2022 Author #800 Share Posted November 9, 2022 1 hour ago, Scholar4Truth said: Wasn't Friday the 13th loosely based on this case? I believe so. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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