Professor Buzzkill Posted October 17, 2012 #26 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) There is much more of a shared culture in Europe than there is in America, at least most of it comes from the good old Roman Empire, which means that the law fundamentals and the social cohesion base on a model 2000 years old. And in Europe most are Christian too, so that hardly is an argument. The only places the Romans have not been long enough to bring some civilization is Britain and Germany East of the Rhine River. You have got to be kidding me. I have traveled through the USA and UK without any communication issues (except in McDonalds in Scotland). Where i have had communication issues is mainland Europe. I admit that it was my issue not being able to speak the language, but to be honest, the UK has more in common with the USA then most of Europe. Also, atheism is the most common "belief" in about half of European countries, not that that matters.. Edit to add that you completely ignored the point about a single currency. Look how well that worked out for Greece. If you guys still had the drachma you could have artificially inflated the currency and be on the road to recovery, rather than still sinking to a slow death. Edited October 17, 2012 by Professor Buzzkill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted October 17, 2012 #27 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) You have got to be kidding me. I have traveled through the USA and UK without any communication issues (except in McDonalds in Scotland). Where i have had communication issues is mainland Europe. I admit that it was my issue not being able to speak the language, but to be honest, the UK has more in common with the USA then most of Europe. Also, atheism is the most common "belief" in about half of European countries, not that that matters.. Most young Europeans speak at least 2 languages, many more than 2. And the smaller the country and the more neighbors the more languages they speak. That helps a lot traveling all through Europe. And yes, could be that the UK has more in common with the US, the problem there is that the US does not want the UK in NAFTA, as once suggested by Lady Thatcher. Edit: and one country in Europe, Switzerland, known to work very well has 4 languages spoken within its borders. Works too. Edited October 17, 2012 by questionmark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 17, 2012 #28 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) i remember arguing with Questionmark and Keith on here a year or so about about the ambitions of the EU and the worst kept secret of the ultimate goal - a EU federation, Q and Keith argued on technicalities this wasn't the case, well they've (EU) let the cat out of the bag and I / we've been proved correct in our assessment. Extremely bad comparison - You simply cannot compare the USA and a federal EU the two are worlds apart. Once the EU gets ahead of steam on this federal ambition you will see the UK leave without doubt and my prediction is others will follow. time will tell. That is a statement not a fact. There is no substantial difference between the two other than the fact that Europe has more than one language in common usage. As I said, your personal opinion is just that and not really material. You really have yo stop confusing what you believe with reality. Br Cornelius Edited October 17, 2012 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Buzzkill Posted October 17, 2012 #29 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) That is a statement not a fact. There is no substantial difference between the two other than the fact that Europe has more than one language in common usage. As I said, your personal opinion is just that and not really material. You really have yo stop confusing what you believe with reality. Br Cornelius And you think a single government overseeing multiple competing cultures is a good thing because? It's like looking at Libya and saying "lets set up a government modeled on these guys" Edit spelling Edited October 17, 2012 by Professor Buzzkill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted October 17, 2012 #30 Share Posted October 17, 2012 And you think a single government overseeing multiple competing cultures is a good thing because? It's like looking at Lybia and saying "lets set up a government modeled on these guys" Where do you get that these cultures are competing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Buzzkill Posted October 17, 2012 #31 Share Posted October 17, 2012 And yes, could be that the UK has more in common with the US, the problem there is that the US does not want the UK in NAFTA, as once suggested by Lady Thatcher. How is that a problem? why would being ruled by one overseas government be better than another overseas government. Both should be looked at in the same unfavorable light. Where do you get that these cultures are competing? Do you no anything about economics? countries are competing against each other for the same market in everything they produce/supply/service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted October 17, 2012 #32 Share Posted October 17, 2012 That is a statement not a fact. There is no substantial difference between the two other than the fact that Europe has more than one language in common usage. As I said, your personal opinion is just that and not really material. You really have yo stop confusing what you believe with reality. Br Cornelius just because you used an extremely bad example no need to try and defend it, just hold your hands up and admit the comparison was poor, my views are firmly in reality of the situation. the majority of the people reading these posts can make their own minds up if they think it was a good comaprison The EU. 27 countries with 27 different cultures identity history and tradition. this is another reason the UK needs to get out quick, they have no bloody idea. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted October 17, 2012 #33 Share Posted October 17, 2012 How is that a problem? why would being ruled by one overseas government be better than another overseas government. Both should be looked at in the same unfavorable light. Do you no anything about economics? countries are competing against each other for the same market in everything they produce/supply/service. That has nothing to do with "culture". And the individuate states in the US are also competing, but some produce more milk and Cheese(Europe Denmark and Ireland, US Wisconsin) and others more cars (Europe Germany, US Michigan), does not hurt any in their economy. And especially not those countries who use a common currency. What was a disaster is the situation before the Euro, where Italy just devalued the Lira and in Germany and France 10,000s were suddenly jobless because Italian products were cheaper. Now they must compete on a level paying field... much to the disgust of some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted October 17, 2012 #34 Share Posted October 17, 2012 just because you used an extremely bad example no need to try and defend it, just hold your hands up and admit the comparison was poor, my views are firmly in reality of the situation. the majority of the people reading these posts can make their own minds up if they think it was a good comaprison The EU. 27 countries with 27 different cultures identity history and tradition. this is another reason the UK needs to get out quick, they have no bloody idea. You mean that it is hurting Britain too that there is a Scottish culture, a English culture and a Welsh culture (never mind the 100s of subcultures thereof)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Buzzkill Posted October 17, 2012 #35 Share Posted October 17, 2012 That has nothing to do with "culture". And the individuate states in the US are also competing, but some produce more milk and Cheese(Europe Denmark and Ireland, US Wisconsin) and others more cars (Europe Germany, US Michigan), does not hurt any in their economy. And especially not those countries who use a common currency. What was a disaster is the situation before the Euro, where Italy just devalued the Lira and in Germany and France 10,000s were suddenly jobless because Italian products were cheaper. Now they must compete on a level paying field... much to the disgust of some. How is that level playing field working out in Greece? I can't wait until i can reap the benefits of a single currency controlled by an unelected government. All that free time the Greeks have, I'm envious, i wish i could stand all day in line for free soup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted October 17, 2012 #36 Share Posted October 17, 2012 How is that level playing field working out in Greece? I can't wait until i can reap the benefits of a single currency controlled by an unelected government. All that free time the Greeks have, I'm envious, i wish i could stand all day in line for free soup. There is a thread on this forum called 'We Are Greedy and Asocial' where you can learn why Greece is in trouble, that had nothing to do with the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted October 17, 2012 #37 Share Posted October 17, 2012 You mean that it is hurting Britain too that there is a Scottish culture, a English culture and a Welsh culture (never mind the 100s of subcultures thereof)? these cultures have been blended together for thousands of years. What do you have in common with Slovakia. i bet you cannot even point to it on the map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Buzzkill Posted October 17, 2012 #38 Share Posted October 17, 2012 There is a thread on this forum called 'We Are Greedy and Asocial' where you can learn why Greece is in trouble, that had nothing to do with the EU. And being tied to the Euro means there is no hope of a speedy recovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted October 17, 2012 #39 Share Posted October 17, 2012 these cultures have been blended together for thousands of years. What do you have in common with Slovakia. i bet you cannot even point to it on the map. Oh, I can do so to, not all with roots in Texas are idiots. It lays between Austrian the Czech Republic and Poland. And that, in case you don't know lies in the Eastern part of central Europe. And no, those British cultures have not grown together for thousands of years, not even 300 years ago they were completely strange to each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted October 17, 2012 #40 Share Posted October 17, 2012 There is a thread on this forum called 'We Are Greedy and Asocial' where you can learn why Greece is in trouble, that had nothing to do with the EU. nothing to do with the EU, you trying to re-write history thankfully the reading of a history book is not needed, as it happened within memory. the reason Greece is fecked up is significantly down to the fact they were allowed to join the Euro currency even though the EU knew the state of the Greek economy they knew the books were cooked. the EU wanted Euro expansion at all costs. so they let greece join, they give them money money and more money, caught up in the jubilation of the Greeks believing in the EU dream. here we are 11 years later the chickens have come home to roost. It was irresponsible for the EU to let Greece join the Euro knowing full well they didn't meet the criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Buzzkill Posted October 17, 2012 #41 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Oh, I can do so to, not all with roots in Texas are idiots. It lays between Austrian the Czech Republic and Poland. And that, in case you don't know lies in the Eastern part of central Europe. And no, those British cultures have not grown together for thousands of years, not even 300 years ago they were completely strange to each other. And in the last 300 years have made an effort to assimilate to the British culture. Do you think that all of Europe will assimilate to one culture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted October 17, 2012 #42 Share Posted October 17, 2012 And being tied to the Euro means there is no hope of a speedy recovery. I would not say that, because they are tied to the Euro at this point they only have to pay half of their debt back, the other half is taken over by the other Euro countries and the ECB and on top of that Wolfgang Schauble has just proposed creating a trust fund with the only purpose to pay down Greek debt that will be discussed in the European Council tomorrow. If Greece were not in the Euro they would tell them the same as to Hungary: Pay your own way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 17, 2012 #43 Share Posted October 17, 2012 just because you used an extremely bad example no need to try and defend it, just hold your hands up and admit the comparison was poor, my views are firmly in reality of the situation. the majority of the people reading these posts can make their own minds up if they think it was a good comaprison The EU. 27 countries with 27 different cultures identity history and tradition. this is another reason the UK needs to get out quick, they have no bloody idea. Steve - just because you claim it is a poor comparison means nothing. I have no need to defend anything. The European cultures are overwhelmingly similar in the same way as the Arab countries are overwhelmingly similar, just as the American states are overwhelmingly similar. You would find far greater cultural differences between a New York state resident and those of Texas. Their cultural values are vastly different - yet they cohabit in the same union of states. As I said, the main cultural differences are in language. The thing is - the European union specifically has nothing to do with a nations cultural traditions and says nothing about how those traditions are observed. It is a state of common standards which are necessary for all member to exist without conflict and to share their goods without impediment. It has brought peace and prosperity to a continent which had previously not been without war for over 400yrs. To me what matters is are the common standards worth sharing and have they brought peace to their peoples - and for me the answer is certainly yes. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted October 17, 2012 #44 Share Posted October 17, 2012 nothing to do with the EU, you trying to re-write history thankfully the reading of a history book is not needed, as it happened within memory. the reason Greece is fecked up is significantly down to the fact they were allowed to join the Euro currency even though the EU knew the state of the Greek economy they knew the books were cooked. the EU wanted Euro expansion at all costs. so they let greece join, they give them money money and more money, caught up in the jubilation of the Greeks believing in the EU dream. here we are 11 years later the chickens have come home to roost. It was irresponsible for the EU to let Greece join the Euro knowing full well they didn't meet the criteria. And all that has what to do with the unwillingness of Greece to collect the taxes some rich evaders owe them? Or the furthering of corruption by the government? Greece's problems are homemade, not by the Euro, they would have exactly the same problem were they not in the community currency, with one slight difference: Nobody would help them out of the self created mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 17, 2012 #45 Share Posted October 17, 2012 And being tied to the Euro means there is no hope of a speedy recovery. Greece would already be in a state of dictatorship by now if it wasn't for the EU. It would have absolutely no trading partners since it produces nothing that anyone wants and could not afford to buy what others have. It is a basket case of a state and has been for about 70yrs - none of which has been attributable to the EU. in fact it has experienced its longest period of growth and stability since joining the EU. Misattributing blame to the EU will get you nowhere. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Buzzkill Posted October 17, 2012 #46 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I would not say that, because they are tied to the Euro at this point they only have to pay half of their debt back, the other half is taken over by the other Euro countries and the ECB and on top of that Wolfgang Schauble has just proposed creating a trust fund with the only purpose to pay down Greek debt that will be discussed in the European Council tomorrow. If Greece were not in the Euro they would tell them the same as to Hungary: Pay your own way out. I would prefer to have national debt and employment then 1/2 of national debt and no employment. If you were in line for food or necessary medicine i think you would feel the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 17, 2012 #47 Share Posted October 17, 2012 And in the last 300 years have made an effort to assimilate to the British culture. Do you think that all of Europe will assimilate to one culture? Not even remotely true - all the nations of Britain are distinct and culturally different. You should try living in Glasgow without adapting to the local "Customs". Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Buzzkill Posted October 17, 2012 #48 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) Greece would already be in a state of dictatorship by now if it wasn't for the EU. It would have absolutely no trading partners since it produces nothing that anyone wants and could not afford to buy what others have. It is a basket case of a state and has been for about 70yrs - none of which has been attributable to the EU. in fact it has experienced its longest period of growth and stability since joining the EU. Misattributing blame to the EU will get you nowhere. Br Cornelius If they had the drachma and it was inflated to the point that tourists could stay at a five star hotel for US$20 a night i am sure they would be flooded with tourists. Hell i would be there right now. This is how economies work to get themselves out of trouble. This would be especially helpful in tourist centers that are struggling thanks to the Euro Edited October 17, 2012 by Professor Buzzkill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Buzzkill Posted October 17, 2012 #49 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Not even remotely true - all the nations of Britain are distinct and culturally different. You should try living in Glasgow without adapting to the local "Customs". Br Cornelius How many people in Glasgow speak English? 100%. 500 years ago how many people in Glasgow spoke English? See my point or ignoring the fact that cultures assimilate to achieve the best results? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted October 17, 2012 #50 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) If they had the drachma and it was inflated to the point that tourists could stay at a five star hotel for US$20 a night i am sure they would be flooded with tourists. Hell i would be there right now. This is how economies work to get themselves out of trouble. Especially in tourist centers that are struggling thanks to the Euro I am sorry, I have been around here for enough time to remember the Drachma, but I can't remember a 5 star hotel that, inflation adjusted over the last 12 years would cost only $20. Especially not the current $20 with the dollar weakness. The cheapest 5 star hotel I remember was 15,000 drachmes a night, and even in these bad times that would be $50... without inflation adjustment. Greece had catapulted itself out of the market already in 1993. Edited October 17, 2012 by questionmark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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