European Commission warns UK

[Guest]

If they had the drachma and it was inflated to the point that tourists could stay at a five star hotel for US$20 a night i am sure they would be flooded with tourists. Hell i would be there right now. This is how economies work to get themselves out of trouble. Especially in tourist centers that are struggling thanks to the Euro

How do you propose they would pay for the essential goods they needed to service their tourist sector when their drachmas wouldn't buy ****. A currency has to be tradable for it to be "cheap".

I watched the decline of Greece over 25yrs as I visited what at first was a poor but cheap country which progressively got greedy and inflated its prices to Northern European levels whilst expecting it all to be supported on the backs of a now expensive tourist industry - the cooked the goose that laid the Golden Egg.

The Greek people know aqnd understand all this and that is why the majority of their population don't want to go back to the drachma. The problem is that as a nation they need to grow up and start pulling their weight. The same is true of my adopted home country - if we are up to our necks in **** its because we jumped into the septic tank.

Br Cornelius

[Guest]

How many people in Glasgow speak English? 100%.

500 years ago how many people in Glasgow spoke English?

See my point or ignoring the fact that cultures assimilate to achieve the best results?

The language assimilation has not prevented a substantial minority of Gallic speakers and Welsh speakers from sharing your Federal state of the United Kingdom.

Br Cornelius

[Professor Buzzkill]

How do you propose they would pay for the essential goods they needed to service their tourist sector when their drachmas wouldn't buy ****. A currency has to be tradable for it to be "cheap".

I watched the decline of Greece over 25yrs as I visited what at first was a poor but cheap country which progressively got greedy and inflated its prices to Northern European levels whilst expecting it all to be supported on the backs of a now expensive tourist industry - the cooked the goose that laid the Golden Egg.

The Greek people know aqnd understand all this and that is why the majority of their population don't want to go back to the drachma. The problem is that as a nation they need to grow up and start pulling their weight. The same is true of my adopted home country - if we are up to our necks in **** its because we jumped into the septic tank.

Br Cornelius

How do you pull your own weight when there is extreme unemployment and the government is entirely incapable of controlling the monetary policy of its only currency?

You guys need to do economics 101. Governments have very limited ways control their economy, why take away their best tool for the job?

Anyway, back to the UK topic please. I am sick of repeating myself and can see that i am not going to change any ones mind here.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Professor Buzzkill

[smurf0852]

Why does Britain expect to gain the trade benefits, well our £50 million pound a day contribution to be a member entitles us to any benefits the EU offers. though to me these benefits are questionable. especially when the EU forbids us making our own trade deals with India for example. I ask the question how can that be right that the worlds fifth/sixth largest economy is forbidden to make its own trade deals.

My colours are firmly nailed to the mast as you know, I'd love nothing more than the UK slinging our hook as you put it. all i want is the UK to leave the European Union, there is nothing wrong with us being just good neighbours. to me the european union will never work. they strive for greater unity between members, its now openly debated - as a federal union, with ever greater control over the lives of people within - everything from the delivering of mail to the collection of rubbish to the other end of the scale - law and order, home affairs to mooted national budgets etc.

If members want to sign their sovereignty over to a foreign unelected power then thats their entitlement. i can see the benefit of certain countries joining the EU countries such as Ireland, Belgium, Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary, Romania, Latvia Greece Estonia etc. all these countries need massive investment to bring their living standards to that of the more successful northern european members - Germany, France etc. there are also greater cultural and social problems. that is why the EU is doomed to fail, how can you succeed with that millstone around the neck. 190+ countries in the world. the world is not 27 members of the EU.

The future of the United Kingdom is not within the EU. we can do without it and all it brings. just accept the people of the UK want out. respect that. that is why we need a referendum once and for all. - either way in or out both the EU and UK will go on, neither are going to fall off the face of the world.

steve i have a neutral stance to the europe question i can see the good and the bad .what i fear though is this.

if we leave europe and try to go it alone we are faceing countrys like the usa ,china, brazil ,europe and india .we have very little quality industry or manufacturing compared to these nations ,face it alone we have very little to offer.

our main export is financial services which if they are taxed at the point of delivery will be decimated and the providers will simply relocate (thats what corperations and the like do they strip assets like an uncaring mining company tearing up the rain forest)

and move on.

to try and compete we will have to drop wages to levels we havent seen for a century and still we will not be able to do it lifestyles will suffer working people will suffer crime will rise and our society will be ruined .

to think that we will be able to negotiate similar trade aggrements with europe that we have now isnt unreasonable until you factor in just how petty europe has shown itself to be all through its history.

they simply will not play with us anymore .

why would they trade with us when they can convince a company to close a factory in britain give them a subsidy to re open it in spain and trade in a common currency its just not going to happen.

i think we have got to a point that leaving just isnt an option anymore.

i must point out this is just a gut feeling and i hope im wrong .

[questionmark]

in related news:

Why the Tories are ready to risk detonating the Brussels bomb

Withdrawal from the EU has changed from being a fringe view to mainstream opinion

When David Cameron became Tory leader seven years ago, William Hague is said to have delivered a stern warning on the subject of Europe. Stay well away, advised Mr Hague, who knew from brutal personal experience as Conservative leader the damage it was capable of doing. Mr Hague added that Europe should be regarded as a bomb that could never be defused, yet might well go off at any moment. The wisest course was to leave well alone and hope for the best.

Mr Cameron took careful note. In opposition he did his best to avert trouble, and was almost excessively careful during the early period of government. Europe was the easiest part of the Coalition Agreement to negotiate, Mr Cameron having already abandoned his “cast-iron” guarantee of a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. With only one admittedly very dramatic exception – last December’s treaty veto – his Government has concentrated on less perilous subjects.

It has suddenly become very clear that, seven years after the Foreign Secretary delivered his warning, the Hague doctrine has been abandoned. Over the past few days, though, without the knowledge, let alone assent of a bemused Mr Hague, a series of Cabinet ministers have articulated anti-European sentiments. First to do so was Theresa May, now being talked of as a potential Conservative leader. Last week, at party conference, the Home Secretary took on one of the most fundamental pieties of the European Union, when she promised to challenge the free movement of people between member states. Exactly how she proposed to do this was never explained.

Read more

Edited October 18, 2012 by questionmark

[stevewinn]

And all that has what to do with the unwillingness of Greece to collect the taxes some rich evaders owe them? Or the furthering of corruption by the government?

Greece's problems are homemade, not by the Euro, they would have exactly the same problem were they not in the community currency, with one slight difference: Nobody would help them out of the self created mess.

Greece's problems are indeed homemade, the EU just made things worse letting Greece join when they knew Greece didn't meet the criteria. once the crisis hit greece had no room to maneuver, they couldnt devalue their currency they couldnt change their interest rates, in short constrained by the eu straight jacket and now the eu are acting as the saviour.

the responsible thing to do was for the eu not allow greece membership of the euro until they got their house in order. but expansion at all costs. literally.

steve i have a neutral stance to the europe question i can see the good and the bad .what i fear though is this.

if we leave europe and try to go it alone we are faceing countrys like the usa ,china, brazil ,europe and india .we have very little quality industry or manufacturing compared to these nations ,face it alone we have very little to offer.

our main export is financial services which if they are taxed at the point of delivery will be decimated and the providers will simply relocate (thats what corperations and the like do they strip assets like an uncaring mining company tearing up the rain forest)

and move on.

to try and compete we will have to drop wages to levels we havent seen for a century and still we will not be able to do it lifestyles will suffer working people will suffer crime will rise and our society will be ruined .

to think that we will be able to negotiate similar trade aggrements with europe that we have now isnt unreasonable until you factor in just how petty europe has shown itself to be all through its history.

they simply will not play with us anymore .

why would they trade with us when they can convince a company to close a factory in britain give them a subsidy to re open it in spain and trade in a common currency its just not going to happen.

i think we have got to a point that leaving just isnt an option anymore.

i must point out this is just a gut feeling and i hope im wrong .

first of all get rid of the fear, i've said it before there is nothing to fear but fear itself. the United Kingdom does not need to be a member of the European Union. Norway and Switzerland are not EU members yet both Export more to the EU than we do.

What do you mean if we leave the EU we'll face the likes of the USA, and the BRICS Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa. alone. - were not going to war with them. we are going to trade with them. trade is a two way street, the UK would be able to negotiate trade deals which are perfect for us and us alone, we wouldn't be hamstrung by eu red tape. at this moment in time we are forbidden for making our own trade deals with India etc...

Our economy never collapsed when we didnt join the EURO. in fact if we had joined the euro we'd have been in dire straights. having to be bailed out by the IMF. thank our lucky stars we never joined.

The United Kingdom manufacturing is not in a poor state far from it, the UK as as a strong 'clean' and lean specialised manufacturing base, our economy does rely on services, but these services are everything from the BBC to Education. Manufacturing accounts for 85% of our exports. heavy to medium manufacturing, we have 8 global car manufacturers, we have everyone from Ford, producing half the worlds diesel engines, building Ford transit. Rolls Royce, toyota, Nissan, BMW, Jaguar Landrover, Vauxhall ect....worlds second biggest aerospace industry BAE systems, Rolls Royce engines used in planes world wide, pharmaceutical industry second biggest in the world, glaxosmithkline, astrazeneca, Corus steel (tata) - boat manufactering harland and wolf, Cammell laird, princess, sunseeker etc... then take into account our food, drink, tobacco, paper, printing, publishing and textiles, chemical petrolum industries. the list goes on and on. to many to write here, we now produce high quality high value goods we specialise. none of your rubber dog sh1t stuff we see from china. we had the largest foreign investment (non EU) so that tells us the world believes in us. just look at the investment in manufactering as proof is proof were needed. we now export more to the world than we do Europe, infact exports to europe have gone down by 3% while trade to the world as gone up by 7%

we are a member of the common wealth. G7, G8, G20, EU, IMF, OECD, world bank, world trade, United Nations, NATO, we sit at the top table in the world, we are not some little european backwater, we have a blue water navy one of only three in the world. we protect global trade. the positives go on and on.

economies in europe are struggling yet the world economies are growing. bear that in mind, its the british mentality of recent times of always doing ourselves down, when we won the olympics we were saying their going to be an embarrassment, how did that turn out? far from it it showed the best of what we can do, after the games we said to the world now follow that.

So its about time we came together have the attitude of yes we can, so lets together unashamedly, patriotically believe in our nation, in our ability to be masters of our own destiny. masters of our own house. and lets go out their and achieve it.

we are not going to achieve anything remaining within the EU, hamstrung by by red tape, diktats brussels and the equal sharing of misery. let them who want to be part of the EU build sewers in poland, and a road network in slovakia, let them have all the problems 26 member countries bring. let them deal with their own foreign affairs. to be continued...........

[Guest]

Steve - all of that major foreign investment is contingent on been a member of the EU. Watch it all slip away as soon as you left the union. Major manufacturers realise that selling into Europe without tariffs is why they are here and they hold zero loyalty to the UK as a nation. They choose to locate to the UK because it is generally a lower wage economy than most industrial countries of the EU. Modern manufacturers can readily relocate at the drop of a pin - and they constantly do - such is global capitalism.

All those advantages disappear as soon as the tariffs go up - and they will.

It may work out OK in the long run - but the UK hasn't got an empire to sponge off anymore and it will have to compete on a like for like basis with countries like India and Brazil who are quite capable of matching almost anything the UK can produce (apart from the very highest end military gear at the moment). Your country will not be the same place it is now if it takes the plunge and you personally are likely to be considerably worse off as a consequence.

Br Cornelius

Edited October 18, 2012 by Guest

[TheLastLazyGun]

This is the 21st Century and our EU overlords don't want us to rule our own country.

It's time for us to have that EU in/out referendum which we were promised before the last election.

[stevewinn]

Steve - all of that major foreign investment is contingent on been a member of the EU. Watch it all slip away as soon as you left the union. Major manufacturers realise that selling into Europe without tariffs is why they are here and they hold zero loyalty to the UK as a nation. They choose to locate to the UK because it is generally a lower wage economy than most industrial countries of the EU. Modern manufacturers can readily relocate at the drop of a pin - and they constantly do - such is global capitalism.

All those advantages disappear as soon as the tariffs go up - and they will.

It may work out OK in the long run - but the UK hasn't got an empire to sponge off anymore and it will have to compete on a like for like basis with countries like India and Brazil who are quite capable of matching almost anything the UK can produce (apart from the very highest end military gear at the moment). Your country will not be the same place it is now if it takes the plunge and you personally are likely to be considerably worse off as a consequence.

Br Cornelius

I totally disagree with you, yet again the main ploy is a play on fear, nothing will slip away, the reason foreign companies set up here is they can achieve greater profit, and quality.

the largest foreign investment is due to the position the government as taken in the last five years. the conditions and the skilled workforce. if it was all because of the EU they'd have invested elsewhere in the EU - they could easily set up shop in the likes of Poland, Hungary etc...

The Companies have shown they believe in the course the UK as plotted its well documented - the likelihood is the UK will leave the EU within the next 6 to ten years. yet the companies have still invested for the next three to four decades. if they where here just because of the EU and the EU alone they wouldn't have invested here. just doesn't make sense no matter which way you spin it, so that blows your notion out of the water.

The Future - all the major manufactures know the future growth lies outside of europe. in the emerging economies. that is why they invest long term in UK.PLC its seems the UK is strategically placing itself to take full advantage with businesses choosing a future United Kingdom operating outside of EU legislation with conditions which appeal to business for ease of conducting business, one thing companies hate is red tape, and Brussels is ever increasing the red tape for business. watch this space.

Edited October 18, 2012 by stevewinn

[TheLastLazyGun]

Steve - all of that major foreign investment is contingent on been a member of the EU.

No, it isn't.

If a country can only get major foreign investment as a member of the EU then 87% of the world's countries have no hope of getting any of it, have they?

But here's the reality. Britain attracts more outside investment (known to economists as `Foreign Direct Investment') than other European countries because its labour market is still relatively unregulated. If it was outside the EU Britain could take advantage of its independence to reduce the number of regulations limiting foreign companies. EU regulations are already regarded as a minefield. Just ask some of the foreign companies who have had eurocrats leaping up and down all over them. Many would jump at the chance to invest in a less regulated part of Europe. The tariffs would be a small price to pay. Finally, even if FDI did fall, Britain would not necessarily lose since in an often irrational attempt to encourage foreign businesses (at the expense of British businesses) the British Government subsidises these investments. A subsidised outside investment may well not make money for the country.

Watch it all slip away as soon as you left the union.

That's just scaremongering from the rabid, swivel-eyed Europhiles. It's very much like the scaremongering they inflicted on the British ten years ago when the British - wisely, as it turned out - refused to join the Euro. "You are doomed!" the Europhile loons told us. "The British economy will be outpaced by those economies which have the euro and London will be overtaken by Paris and Frankfurt as a financial centre".

Of course, the Europhiles were eventually proven wrong about that so I think it's only wise for us to ignore their scare stories about the consequences should Britain leave the EU and join the 87% of the world's countries who are outside it but are hardly suffering the consequences because of it.

Major manufacturers realise that selling into Europe without tariffs is why they are here and they hold zero loyalty to the UK as a nation.

Are you saying that the 87% of the world's nations that are OUTSIDE the EU do not have major manufacturers based within them?

I'm sorry, but I don't believe you.

but the UK hasn't got an empire to sponge off anymore

Neither do the 87% of the world's countries which are OUTSIDE of the EU and they are hardly suffering as a result.

Your country will not be the same place it is now if it takes the plunge

The British, unlike the pathetic Irish who are nowadays nothing more than Brussels lapdogs who would do anything their unelected Brussels masters tell them to do in return for a nice rub of their bellies, will be a sovereign, independent state run by elected Britons rather than unelected Brussels eurocrats who care nothing about Britain and wouldn't know what democracy is if it punched them in the face.

At the end of the day, once Britain is outside the EU and has rejoined the big wide world, forging closer links with the much more economically vibrant Commonwealth and having taken off the EU's shackles which were holding back our economy, us Brits will be the ones that are laughing.

and you personally are likely to be considerably worse off as a consequence.

So all nations that are outside the EU are worse off than those inside the EU?

Again, I don't believe you, I'm afraid.

Edited October 18, 2012 by TheLastLazyGun

[Guest]

I totally disagree with you, yet again the main ploy is a play on fear, nothing will slip away, the reason foreign companies set up here is they can achieve greater profit, and quality.

the largest foreign investment is due to the position the government as taken in the last five years. the conditions and the skilled workforce. if it was all because of the EU they'd have invested elsewhere in the EU - they could easily set up shop in the likes of Poland, Hungary etc...

The Companies have shown they believe in the course the UK as plotted its well documented - the likelihood is the UK will leave the EU within the next 6 to ten years. yet the companies have still invested for the next three to four decades. if they where here just because of the EU and the EU alone they wouldn't have invested here. just doesn't make sense no matter which way you spin it, so that blows your notion out of the water.

The Future - all the major manufactures know the future growth lies outside of europe. in the emerging economies. that is why they invest long term in UK.PLC its seems the UK is strategically placing itself to take full advantage with businesses choosing a future United Kingdom operating outside of EU legislation with conditions which appeal to business for ease of conducting business, one thing companies hate is red tape, and Brussels is ever increasing the red tape for business. watch this space.

Carry on telling yourself the patriotic line. they may achieve great profits and quality - but they do so because they can sell their products into Europe without traiffs. Business is really that simple. Do you imagine that Irish, Dutch, Beligium or German employees are any less capable ?? They are just as capable. The UK sells itself to foreign national companies on cheap skilled labour - that is all.

You are wrong in that Europe represents one of the most lucrative markets in the world. If the same companies want to sell into South America or Asia they will set up manufacturing divisions in those countries and sell them products tailored to their needs. They will do so because other areas have trading blocks and import tariffs.

I do not think you actually understand how businesses operate Steve.

Br Cornelius

[stevewinn]

Carry on telling yourself the patriotic line. they may achieve great profits and quality - but they do so because they can sell their products into Europe without traiffs. Business is really that simple. Do you imagine that Irish, Dutch, Beligium or German employees are any less capable ?? They are just as capable. The UK sells itself to foreign national companies on cheap skilled labour - that is all.

You are wrong in that Europe represents one of the most lucrative markets in the world. If the same companies want to sell into South America or Asia they will set up manufacturing divisions in those countries and sell them products tailored to their needs. They will do so because other areas have trading blocks and import tariffs.

I do not think you actually understand how businesses operate Steve.

Br Cornelius

of course i havent got a clue how the world works and business for that matter, that is why everything i say is wrong and your so right. glad we've sorted that out.

trouble is the likes of Ireland have and never will have the ability of the UK. so i fully understand your stance, you forget just how influential the UK is in the global world of business. out of the 26 EU members there is only one country that can rival us and that is Germany. the rest have to club together in a desperate bid to be something.

the difference is the UK can achieve it, were the only ones with a track record of doing it. why should we lumber ourselves with the dead weight of 26 countries, nah, let Germany dominate Europe, let Germany drag the other 25 members behind her. in the end it will be the downfall.

why should the UK pay £50 million a day to be a member when we sit at the back of the bus while up front we have a German driver and French conductor. we can our own bus and drive ourselves without passengers. ding ding next stop please driver.

[questionmark]

why should the UK pay £50 million a day to be a member when we sit at the back of the bus while up front we have a German driver and French conductor. we can our own bus and drive ourselves without passengers. ding ding next stop please driver.

The UK was offered at least a dozen times the driver seat, and always rejected it for petty local politics.

[Guest]

of course i havent got a clue how the world works and business for that matter, that is why everything i say is wrong and your so right. glad we've sorted that out.

trouble is the likes of Ireland have and never will have the ability of the UK. so i fully understand your stance, you forget just how influential the UK is in the global world of business. out of the 26 EU members there is only one country that can rival us and that is Germany. the rest have to club together in a desperate bid to be something.

the difference is the UK can achieve it, were the only ones with a track record of doing it. why should we lumber ourselves with the dead weight of 26 countries, nah, let Germany dominate Europe, let Germany drag the other 25 members behind her. in the end it will be the downfall.

why should the UK pay £50 million a day to be a member when we sit at the back of the bus while up front we have a German driver and French conductor. we can our own bus and drive ourselves without passengers. ding ding next stop please driver.

Ireland has one of the most highly skilled workforces in Europe with one of the highest levels of degrees. It has inward investment comparable to the UK. It is currently less competitive than the UK because it has higher wage rates - but that is changing and making it ever more competitive.

The reason why the UK has so little influence in the decisions which effect its economy at the EU level is simply because it refuses to participate in those decisions. Who's fault is that ?? It specifically chose not to avail of the regional assistance it was entitled to.

Don't get sniffy Steve - your logic is blatantly flawed in that you attribute the UK's current state to some special status - when really it is playing the game of taking advantage of the EU to develop export markets whilst refusing to participate in the burden sharing. It is working up to a point - but the EU commission will not tolerate such behaviour indefinitely and there will be consequences.

Br Cornelius

Edited October 18, 2012 by Guest

[stevewinn]

The UK was offered at least a dozen times the driver seat, and always rejected it for petty local politics.

No way, the EU is German led, followed by lap dog France. these two would never allow Britain a lead roll.

[Guest]

No way, the EU is German led, followed by lap dog France. these two would never allow Britain a lead roll.

That is an opinion which is not supported by the evidence. The largest economies of the EU have the most influence - if they choose to exercise it. You well know that the UK could be dicating policy on equal terms if they chose to engage. You are straying firmly into conspiracy theory territory now.

Br Cornelius

[stevewinn]

Ireland has one of the most highly skilled workforces in Europe with one of the highest levels of degrees. It has inward investment comparable to the UK. It is currently less competitive than the UK because it has higher wage rates - but that is changing and making it ever more competitive.

The reason why the UK has so little influence in the decisions which effect its economy at the EU level is simply because it refuses to participate in those decisions. Who's fault is that ?? It specifically chose not to avail of the regional assistance it was entitled to.

Don't get sniffy Steve - your logic is blatantly flawed in that you attribute the UK's current state to some special status - when really it is playing the game of taking advantage of the EU to develop export markets whilst refusing to participate in the burden sharing. It is working up to a point - but the EU commission will not tolerate such behaviour indefinitely and there will be consequences.

Br Cornelius

how much money did Ireland need to be bailed out? how much interest do you owe to other nations? you are now firmly in the clutches of the EU. a position you personally cherish but thats ideal for yourselves. as a country your neither here or there. your in familiar company with Latvia, Hungary Slovenia etc.. thats why you like the sound of the EU. it must be great being one of the PIIGS. oink oink..

headlines from todays eu meeting 'Germany says no deal agreed on irish debt' your paymasters have spoken.

That is an opinion which is not supported by the evidence. The largest economies of the EU have the most influence - if they choose to exercise it. You well know that the UK could be dicating policy on equal terms if they chose to engage. You are straying firmly into conspiracy theory territory now.

Br Cornelius

you are fooling no one only yourself if you think the UK would have been given the opportunity to influence the EU. Its clear who runs the show Germany and France. always as been.

Edited October 18, 2012 by stevewinn

[Guest]

how much money did Ireland need to be bailed out? how much interest do you owe to other nations? you are now firmly in the clutches of the EU. a position you personally cherish but thats ideal for yourselves. as a country your neither here or there. your in familiar company with Latvia, Hungary Slovenia etc.. thats why you like the sound of the EU. it must be great being one of the PIIGS. oink oink..

headlines from todays eu meeting 'Germany says no deal agreed on irish debt' your paymasters have spoken.

you are fooling no one only yourself if you think the UK would have been given the opportunity to influence the EU. Its clear who runs the show Germany and France. always as been.

And it all boils down to xenophobia with you Steve - always has been. You just don't think anyone is as good as the good old Brits.

That is the problem with the British as well - its a national disease brought on by memories of Empire.

Br Cornelius

[stevewinn]

And it all boils down to xenophobia with you Steve - always has been. You just don't think anyone is as good as the good old Brits.

That is the problem with the British as well - its a national disease brought on by memories of Empire.

Br Cornelius

i was wondering when you'd resort to using the word 'xenophobia' i knew it wasnt far off, tell you a few home truths about your nations plight and all of a sudden after four pages of debating im a xenophobe.

forgive me for having the belief and confidence in my countries own ability to self determination, fully independent, forgive me for not wanting to be ruled over by a foreign power. unelected and unaccountable. i know these notions must be alien to yourself.

im off to work now, back on some time tomorrow afternoon.

[spud the mackem]

Doubt it, but certainly if Britain leaves the best it can hope for is a Switzerland style agreement.

Hi,Norway,Sweden and Finland are doing quite well outside the Euro Market.They didnt go in at the start. Wise people.

[Render]

Whew, the patriotism is dripping of my screen.

I guess we'll have to see how far Cameron and others want to take their pride. Now that it's becoming more and more clear that the EU is no longer willing to give Britain a special deal while Britain acts like they're too good for it all along the way (while they still benefit from all the deals, imagine that). It's definitely turning on the heat.

So on the agenda:

- The warning of EU commission

- Excluding Britain from euro-voting

- Consistently sending messages that Britain should stop it's grumpy attitude

Is it clear why Britain suddenly wants to back out of already made Justice and Crime agreements? Or is it the boasting factor again where Cameron the almighty will refuse to negotiate and sign anything, so he can get another round of applause?

[Guest]

Just so that people don't imagine that I am making it up that the UK economy is dependent on the EU, read what the UK government has to say;

Europe is the world’s most important trading area with 500 million people

generating a total GDP of close to about £10 trillion in 2010. The EU is vital to

the UK’s growth and prosperity, with European markets accounting for half of

the UK’s overall exports of goods and services. Eight out of the UK’s ten main

export markets are in the EU. As a result of this economic exchange, around

3.5 million jobs in the UK are linked to the export of goods and services to the

EU.

Other EU Member States are both the main source and the main destination

of foreign direct investment (FDI) in and from the UK. In 2008, 49% of the total

of inward FDI came from these countries. The stock of inward FDI coming

from other Member States has risen from £151bn at the end of 1999 (EU15)

to £465bn at the end of 2008 (EU27) – i.e. from 35% to 49% of the total. In

2008, 44% of total outward UK FDI flows went to other EU27 countries. The

stock of outward FDI into the EU (£465bn) generated 48% of total earnings

from UK investments abroad.

.......

n comparison with the early 1980s, the single market programme has clearly

reduced “domestic bias” in the EU. EU countries trade nowadays twice as

much with each other as they would do in the absence of the Single Market. 1

Given that, according to the OECD, a 10 percentage point increase in trade

exposure is associated with a 4 per cent rise in income per capita, increased

trade with Europe since the early 80s (around +15 percentage points) may be

responsible for around 6% higher income per capita in the UK. This

represents £3,300 a year per British household.

.....

Recent economic evidence shows that significant non-tariff trade barriers

remain in the single market and that current trade between the UK and the EU

may run 45% below potential. 4 Completely removing these obstacles to trade

would translate into 7% additional income per capita per UK household (14%

at the EU level). In value terms, removing all the remaining obstacles could

most increase exports to the Benelux ($30bn additional exports), France

($24bn), and Germany ($21bn). Spain and Italy follow with between $15bn

and $14bn potential for additional trade. The potential additional trade to the

rest of the EU could amount to $57bn.

......

The complete elimination of obstacles to trade across the Single Market is a

very ambitious scenario, not realistic in the short to medium term. It remains

however that achieving only half or a quarter of that objective has the potential

to change substantially EU growth path for the years to come. For instance

the European Commission estimates that the full implementation of the

Services Directive combined to the improvement of financial integration, the

reduction of administrative and regulatory burden and promotion of open

public procurement could lead to an increase of EU GDP by around 4% over

the next 10 years. This would mean a yearly extra growth of 0.39% up to

2020.

......

Conclusion

European growth has been impacted severely by the 2008-2009 crisis and the

process of fiscal adjustment that followed. Moreover, the recovery from the

4.1% contraction in GDP suffered in 2009 will be further slowed by long-

standing structural weaknesses in the European economy, in particular

product and labour market rigidities. If the current growth forecasts prove

correct, it could take more than three years for output in Europe to return to

pre-crisis levels, and unemployment is unlikely to fall below 10% according to

the European Commission.

Given the importance of the European market for British exporters and

investors, finding new sources of growth in the EU is of central importance to

the UK economy At a time of major fiscal constraints, strengthening the Single

Market has the capacity to lift up substantially European countries’ growth by

further opening borders for goods and services, delivering greater choice and

lowering prices to consumers, opening up new business opportunities for

companies, and ultimately creating jobs. It will play a key role to retain and

develop the global competitiveness of European businesses.

http://www.bis.gov.u...68353B40B9.ashx

Thats right, the actual gains are significant already - but have even more potential given closer economic union (based upon experience from the US).

In all literature analyzing what drives FDI - the primary reason is always the size of the market available. That's right, the larger the market the more FDI. What defines a market - the boundary at which tariffs are imposed. By that definition the EU represents the second largest market in the world (after the US) and so been a member within those boundaries will determine the degree of FDI. Since a substantial degree of the UK's domestic productive capacity is dominated by FDI concerns - to exclude oneself from the second largest trading block would be a goodbye handshake to FDI.

Which is what I have been saying all along.

Br Cornelius

Edited October 21, 2012 by Guest

[stevewinn]

Since that report UK trade with the EU is down by 3%. to 46% of UK trade is with the EU. while trading with the rest of the world is up by 7%. Have you not been reading what people have been posting. the UK imports more from the EU than it exports to the EU - they EU need us more than we need them.

You do not need to be a member of the political union - the european union in order to trade with the EU, has anyone advocated leaving the EU and not trading with them NO. the UK can still leave the EU and trade with Europe, the proximity to the continent will always dictate this. hence trade will always continue to happen even if we are NOT EU members. the USA, China and Japan are not european members yet their trade dominates in Europe. 93% of our trade with the EU is covered/protected by WTO accords/agreements, so the EU cannot all of a sudden put barriers in the way.

The only argument for us to remain EU members seems to be trade benefits, and even these are questionable in certain circumstances, so what else as the EU to offer us? as it stands on trade you could say the UK pays in order to trade with europe, when you take into account the billions we give them. so not free trade. and another inconvenient truth is the growing markets for the UK are the BRICS, It is only right that the British government takes advantage of the situation by expanding our markets outside of the EU while throwing a spanner in the EU works while taking advantage of EU trade in short we get the best of both worlds for now.

to date the British Government as never carried out any studies on the cost of continued membership with the EU. until that day we'll never truly know.

[TheLastLazyGun]

That is an opinion which is not supported by the evidence. The largest economies of the EU have the most influence - if they choose to exercise it. You well know that the UK could be dicating policy on equal terms if they chose to engage. You are straying firmly into conspiracy theory territory now.

Br Cornelius

The EU is run by Germany for the advantage of Germany and nobody else. France is Germany's lapdog and does everything Germany tells it to for a large wad of German money.

Ireland, meanwhile, has got its head so far up the **** of both Germany and France that its people never know when it's daytime and the likes of Michael Collins and the other nationalists who fought for Irish independence are constantly turning in their graves.

Edited October 22, 2012 by TheLastLazyGun

[Guest]

The EU is run by Germany for the advantage of Germany and nobody else. France is Germany's lapdog and does everything Germany tells it to for a large wad of German money.

Ireland, meanwhile, has got its head so far up the **** of both Germany and France that its people never know when it's daytime and the likes of Michael Collins and the other nationalists who fought for Irish independence are constantly turning in their graves.

Dream on. If Germany has more influence it is purely because it is more economically stable and successful than the UK. Hard fact to stomach - but true none the less.

And please don't comment on a country (Ireland) of which you know **** about.

BrCornelius