Bombs away in Israel & Gaza.. Again...

[MichaelW]

How about Israel and what they should be doing? Do you think they should be booting the settlers back into their place?

If Bibi was smart enough, yes. Considering 60% of the Israeli public support the dismantling of West Bank settlements, that alone should be enough for Bibi to try something like a repeat of 2006.

[A rather obscure Bassoon]

[WHO U KIDDIN]

To be honest, I don't understand the whole rationale behind the government allowing settlements on land that has not been purchased. I think the people of Israel in general think of all of Judea and Samaria (West Bank) as their ancient homeland and as such feel justified in putting down roots there. As a Christian Zionist I agree that the land is their's and that they will possess it but I still do not think that they can justify it in our modern secular world. In fact, most Israelis are NOT religious. So it gets down to what they will have to do to broker peace with the Palestinians. The Likud depends on support from settlers so I doubt Netanyahu or any other Likud PM will totally desert them but if the country at large decides for peace then the settlers will be uprooted - it's happened before, you know? And to Israel's shame, my understanding is that the government STILL has those citizens living in temporary housing. With a record like that they will have trouble getting other settlers to move peacefully in the future. But I still say that the settlements are only a smokescreen for the Palestinians. The PLO was founded by Arafat in 1964, a full 3 years before the war that caused Gaza and the West Bank to be captured in a defensive war by the IDF. So if those areas had already been under the control of Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (West Bank) then what was Arafat trying to "liberate"? The answer is of course, ALL the land that Israel sits on. They simply do not feel they should ever, under any circumstance have to coexist with a Jewish State in their midst. That has been their stance these 65 years and so, the war grinds on. It appears that a very large part of the nations of the world agree with them yet Israel remains. In the early days that was due to France and the US. But in 66 or 67 when they acquired a nuclear weapons capability the game changed forever. Now they are not some vassal of any western power. They ARE a power. Whether one agrees with their existence or not, it seems to me to be folly to expect them to simply disappear or to allow themselves to be forced off of land they believe to be their's by right or conquest. If, IMO, the US under a president like Obama were to side with the Arab cause in this conflict and cut off all aid and more importantly to vote against Israel in the UNSC then the world will be faced with having to do more than bluff. They would have to take action. And in truth, what can they really do? Israel could be strangled economically but they couldn't be starved. So there is no easy solution but the bottom line is that Israel WILL COMPROMISE if the conditions aren't too extreme while the Palestinians have consistently held the line on their demands. They see the PR war going in their favor and have deluded themselves into believing that they can actually have ALL THE LAND. It's madness.

Historically Israel has never entertained the thought of compromise, it's negotiations with the Palestinians has always being a tactical ploy, in their long-range quest to achieve a Greater Israel. Israeli policy has been to stall and negate any movement toward Palestinian statehood and self determination. Even after Oslo was signed in 1995 Israel continued its territorial acquisitions in the West Bank and its settlement expansionist program, which eventually led Arafat to call for the Second Intifada in Sept. 2000. Israel responded by erecting apartheid walls of segregation to protect their settlements and to imprison the Palestinian people. As a result the Palestinians live in ghettos that even Hitler would be proud of.

As humans we must ask ourselves how can we continue to support this so-called democratic regime that practices outright racial segregation and hatred towards all that is 'Non-Jewish'?

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hzaHzD0vrB0ETEcKJvfh_SSNVbtQ

[+and-then]

Historically Israel has never entertained the thought of compromise, it's negotiations with the Palestinians has always being a tactical ploy, in their long-range quest to achieve a Greater Israel. Israeli policy has been to stall and negate any movement toward Palestinian statehood and self determination. Even after Oslo was signed in 1995 Israel continued its territorial acquisitions in the West Bank and its settlement expansionist program, which eventually led Arafat to call for the Second Intifada in Sept. 2000. Israel responded by erecting apartheid walls of segregation to protect their settlements and to imprison the Palestinian people. As a result the Palestinians live in ghettos that even Hitler would be proud of.

As humans we must ask ourselves how can we continue to support this so-called democratic regime that practices outright racial segregation and hatred towards all that is 'Non-Jewish'?

http://www.google.co...EcKJvfh_SSNVbtQ

[media=]

[/media]

If you are correct then they as a nation will also continue to suffer endlessly. Our support of them is over rated I think. I still find it almost amusing, almost, that a group of only 5 or 6 million people can be so universally despised and or feared. It just doesn't seem rational to me. I guess it will all work out just as it is supposed to.

[Black Red Devil]

To be honest, I don't understand the whole rationale behind the government allowing settlements on land that has not been purchased. I think the people of Israel in general think of all of Judea and Samaria (West Bank) as their ancient homeland and as such feel justified in putting down roots there. As a Christian Zionist I agree that the land is their's and that they will possess it but I still do not think that they can justify it in our modern secular world. In fact, most Israelis are NOT religious. So it gets down to what they will have to do to broker peace with the Palestinians. The Likud depends on support from settlers so I doubt Netanyahu or any other Likud PM will totally desert them but if the country at large decides for peace then the settlers will be uprooted - it's happened before, you know? And to Israel's shame, my understanding is that the government STILL has those citizens living in temporary housing. With a record like that they will have trouble getting other settlers to move peacefully in the future. But I still say that the settlements are only a smokescreen for the Palestinians. The PLO was founded by Arafat in 1964, a full 3 years before the war that caused Gaza and the West Bank to be captured in a defensive war by the IDF. So if those areas had already been under the control of Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (West Bank) then what was Arafat trying to "liberate"? The answer is of course, ALL the land that Israel sits on. They simply do not feel they should ever, under any circumstance have to coexist with a Jewish State in their midst. That has been their stance these 65 years and so, the war grinds on. It appears that a very large part of the nations of the world agree with them yet Israel remains. In the early days that was due to France and the US. But in 66 or 67 when they acquired a nuclear weapons capability the game changed forever. Now they are not some vassal of any western power. They ARE a power. Whether one agrees with their existence or not, it seems to me to be folly to expect them to simply disappear or to allow themselves to be forced off of land they believe to be their's by right or conquest. If, IMO, the US under a president like Obama were to side with the Arab cause in this conflict and cut off all aid and more importantly to vote against Israel in the UNSC then the world will be faced with having to do more than bluff. They would have to take action. And in truth, what can they really do? Israel could be strangled economically but they couldn't be starved. So there is no easy solution but the bottom line is that Israel WILL COMPROMISE if the conditions aren't too extreme while the Palestinians have consistently held the line on their demands. They see the PR war going in their favor and have deluded themselves into believing that they can actually have ALL THE LAND. It's madness.

In the end, I disagree with most of what you wrote but ....whatever. This is my spin on things, but then again I could be wrong. 1) I don't think the people of Israel believe the West Bank is theirs, only the Zionists, right wing nationalists and of course....the settlers (who are probably a combination of both Zionists and Nats, who in turn are probably the same thing). 2) The settlers aren't a smokescreen for the Palestinians, they're a breach in the peace agreements that happened when the PA was supposed to recognise Israel (and they did) and Israel was supposed to dismantle all settlements (which they NEVER did). 3) Totally wrong when you say the majority of nations in the world want the end of Israel and want the Palestinians to own ALL the land. If that was the case nobody would have ever recognised Israel. What the majority of the world want is a proper solution and fair treatment so this ongoing saga ends once and for all. Also, the fact that Israel has nukes doesn't have anything to do with their recognition as a State or the reason the world lays off them. It's because the US protects them and veto's all resolutions. Actually, Israel doesn't even have any nukes, so they profess. 4) The US will never side with the arabs against Israel. EVER. Too many integrated Jewish interests in the US for that to happen. 5) Israel will never compromise with the Palestinians unless they change Govt. The nationalist right wing parties have no interest to share anything with Palestinians. Israel strangled economically? I don't think so.

[Professor T]

More signs of hope..

A poll in Israel says over 90 per cent of Israeli Jews support the IDF’s Pillar of Defense operation in Gaza, according to a poll carried out by Israeli publication Haaretz. The poll also notes that only 30 per cent of the public is in favor of a ground invasion.

Hamas spokesperson, Ghazi Hamad says that 90 per cent of the terms of ceasefire between Israel and Gaza have been agreed upon in a meeting in Egypt.

Edited to add: Oh yes, and from the UN Ban-ki-Moon, is urging for an immediate ceasefire on both sides.. Nice one.. It took the UN 5 days from just showing concern to urging for a ceasefire..

Edited November 19, 2012 by Professor T

[+and-then]

More signs of hope..

A poll in Israel says over 90 per cent of Israeli Jews support the IDF’s Pillar of Defense operation in Gaza, according to a poll carried out by Israeli publication Haaretz. The poll also notes that only 30 per cent of the public is in favor of a ground invasion.

Hamas spokesperson, Ghazi Hamad says that 90 per cent of the terms of ceasefire between Israel and Gaza have been agreed upon in a meeting in Egypt.

Edited to add: Oh yes, and from the UN Ban-ki-Moon, is urging for an immediate ceasefire on both sides.. Nice one.. It took the UN 5 days from just showing concern to urging for a ceasefire..

A ground invasion would be a nasty, bloody mess and the people of Israel know it - none better. I sincerely hope that a real truce is possible for a while but I also hope Israel has found and eliminated the Fajr 5 missiles or this whole thing will just start over in a matter of weeks. I think we are coming to a denouement of this conflict. The arms reaching Hamas from Iran through Sudan have become sophisticated enough that Hamas can cause REAL problems for Israel any time they wish to - which means any time Iran wishes for them to. Imagine for a moment that this flare up, which isn't so extraordinary after all, was happening with a nuclear Iran both pulling the strings AND implying they had Hamas' "back" in the conflict. Sort of changes the calculus doesn't it?

For my part, I cannot even imagine living somewhere that my kid would have to be 30 seconds from a bomb shelter at all times. It's time for a resolution for both sides.

[A rather obscure Bassoon]

A ground invasion is the last thing Isreal wants,it would be a disaster as it nearly was for them last time.

[Mr.United_Nations]

Israel keeps bombing media buildings

[Sakari]

Oh, and edited to add, this operation is in response to rocket attacks that didn't kill or injure anyone..

So, it is ok to attack another Country, or another person, as long as it does not injure anyone?

[A rather obscure Bassoon]

Israel keeps bombing media buildings

Well the Isreali's never liked bad press,seriously though both sides are looking for a face saving way to stop the hostilities then things will settle down till the next cycle.

[stevewinn]

The president of the United States of America supports Israels right to defend herself. - what people dont seem to be mentioning is the influence Iran is having on situation. do people really think this is Hamas operating on its own. Think again. Its the puppeteer were after.

Edited November 19, 2012 by stevewinn

[Mr.United_Nations]

The president of the United States of America supports Israels right to defend herself. - what people dont seem to be mentioning is the influence Iran is having on situation. do people really think this is Hamas operating on its own. Think again. Its the puppeteer were after.

We don't know if Iran is helping or not. It is more likely that Hamas makes thier own from copies of iranian and Chinese models

[ExpandMyMind]

The president of the United States of America supports Israels right to defend herself.

Do the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves also?

[+and-then]

We don't know if Iran is helping or not. It is more likely that Hamas makes thier own from copies of iranian and Chinese models

While possible, I guess, it doesn't seem probable. The Fajr series is liquid fueled and has up to a 200 lb warhead. Until now they have been making heavy duty "bottle rockets" to launch with fuses. THAT'S a big leap in technology for a metal shop. Plus, Israel recently flattened a Sudanese missile factory that Iran had set up just for Hamas supply.

[Professor Buzzkill]

Do the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves also?

If i punch you in the face, then you attack me, can i defend myself?

[ExpandMyMind]

In your hypothetical scenario, you would be the aggressor - the attacker - so you wouldn't be the one defending yourself, the person you punched would be. Cause and effect.

[Professor Buzzkill]

In your hypothetical scenario, you would be the aggressor - the attacker - so you wouldn't be the one defending yourself, the person you punched would be. Cause and effect.

my point exactly. you can't "defend youself" if you are the aggressor

[ExpandMyMind]

my point exactly. you can't "defend youself" if you are the aggressor

Indeed. And Israel is by definition the aggressor. They are the illegal occupiers of the Palestinians, drop bombs on them and shoot their civilians, destroy homes and crops, demoralise and terrorise them whenever they see fit - and this has been going on since long before the first rocket attack or even suicide bomb or even the birth of Hamas (it is actually the reason Hamas was born). Not to mention 100 others acts of aggression.

You, my friend, are reversing cause and effect. No illegal occupation = no ability to defend any aggressive actions carried out by the Palestinians.The countries of the World vote every year to end the illegal occupation. This shows that there is a WORLD consensus with the view being that Israel are by definition the aggressors.

Edited November 19, 2012 by ExpandMyMind

[glorybebe]

my point exactly. you can't "defend youself" if you are the aggressor

And that is what comes to question who the aggressor is. By taking the land away from the Palestinians in the first place, that set this up to be a constant battle. And the Paletinians do not have any rights over in Isreal, Isreal wants the land and no Palestinian citizens.

[Professor Buzzkill]

And that is what comes to question who the aggressor is. By taking the land away from the Palestinians in the first place, that set this up to be a constant battle. And the Paletinians do not have any rights over in Isreal, Isreal wants the land and no Palestinian citizens.

Are we talking about this latest attack which has led to Isreal defending itself or historical greivances?

If the latter, i propose giving Palastine back to the UK as it was up until 1947

Edited November 19, 2012 by Professor Buzzkill

[Mr.United_Nations]

If Egypt manges to pull this of then credit goes to them. Remmeber when the Muslim Brotherhood took power that people said that they were going to destory Pyrimids and ban non muslim people in events and such. Well that has not happened. So maybe the Muslim brotherhood is not the route of all evil.

[Professor Buzzkill]

Indeed. And Israel is by definition the aggressor. They are the illegal occupiers of the Palestinians, drop bombs on them and shoot their civilians, destroy homes and crops, demoralise and terrorise them whenever they see fit - and this has been going on since long before the first rocket attack or even suicide bomb or even the birth of Hamas (it is actually the reason Hamas was born). Not to mention 100 others acts of aggression.

You, my friend, are reversing cause and effect. No illegal occupation = no ability to defend any aggressive actions carried out by the Palestinians.The countries of the World vote every year to end the illegal occupation. This shows that there is a WORLD consensus with the view being that Israel are by definition the aggressors.

Until the people of the middle east accept Isreal, there will be war. I don't see any countries offering to take in the Isreali's if they were to leave. In fact, that is the reason Isreal was set up, because of anti semites who didnt want jews immigrating to their country.

[glorybebe]

Until the people of the middle east accept Isreal, there will be war. I don't see any countries offering to take in the Isreali's if they were to leave. In fact, that is the reason Isreal was set up, because of anti semites who didnt want jews immigrating to their country.

And why would they accept a country that stole land and is built on lies? Do you rmember when journalists were finally able to show that Isreal was attcking the Palestinians and not the other way around? They brought the Palestinian plight to the world's attention. How about read all the history, not just the biased propoganda that Isreal has spouted out.

[Mr.United_Nations]

Fromm BBC live feed

1944:

A 22-year-old Palestinian is shot dead by Israeli troops in the West Bank city of Hebron, local medics and police tell the AFP news agency.