Atlantis was in West Africa

[Big Bad Voodoo]

You are refering to a Sicilian writing about Greek mythology.

Am I reading this wrong? do you actually believe the Greek myths are real?

Hercacles was the son of Zeus, shall we drag him into this too?

F...Me! wheres Santa Claus when you need him?

No Im refering to Greek Historian from Sicily about History he wrote.

You drag Heracles too in your last post.

Sicilian...

Thats why I hate like button. So people like g00dfella can hold ones side without arguments. Even they dont know anything about it.

Edited November 15, 2012 by the L

[Quaentum]

I don't have the time right now to go over everything you posted L, but after a cursory glance here are a couple of points.

Plato's account can be refuted as a historical account for a number of reasons, not least of which is that no where in the Egyptian works do they reference Atlantis. Any authors publishing their works about Atlantis after Plato would have used Plato's works as a basis and therefore would also be refuted for the same reasons Plato is.

In Herodotus, "The Histories", it seems clear to me that Herodotus puts the pillars of Heracles where we expect to find them at the straits of Gibraltar. Further, Herodotus does not describe a tribe of Atlanteans but a tribe known as Atrantians, who got their name from a salt hill called Atlantes (Pillar of Heaven)

[Big Bad Voodoo]

I don't have the time right now to go over everything you posted L, but after a cursory glance here are a couple of points.

Plato's account can be refuted as a historical account for a number of reasons, not least of which is that no where in the Egyptian works do they reference Atlantis. Any authors publishing their works about Atlantis after Plato would have used Plato's works as a basis and therefore would also be refuted for the same reasons Plato is.

In Herodotus, "The Histories", it seems clear to me that Herodotus puts the pillars of Heracles where we expect to find them at the straits of Gibraltar. Further, Herodotus does not describe a tribe of Atlanteans but a tribe known as Atrantians, who got their name from a salt hill called Atlantes (Pillar of Heaven)

You should read. Herodotus written : Atlantis sea.

Maybe they called them differently. Maybe record is lost. Because we didnt find anything in Hittites about Indus valley civilization that doesnt mean that last one didnt exist.

Diodorus published after Plato but you see he didnt use Plato as basis. Diodorus is historian. He spoke about Thracians,Scythians,Greeks,Amazons and Atlanteans.

I must say that he stated that his copy earlist works but which ones? Plato didnt describe Amazon-Atlantis war. Plato didnt said that Pillars are in Lybia.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Diodorus: The Atlantides were also called ‘nymphai’ because the natives of that land addressed their women by the common appellation of ‘nymphe.’

So were those Nymphai Amazons? In Greek mythology, the Hesperides are nymphs.And so on...

Edited November 15, 2012 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Many written Histories were lost. Now what we know about Mongols without "Secret history"? defenetly nothing about Temujin.

We would know as we know on some lost people. Were Guttians imaginary people?

Now imagine three volumes of history of the world written by Babylonian priest Berrosus. That is lost.

First book was from creation of the world till great flood. All one book. Think about it. How many pages did Bible have till flood?

We talk about book here.

Edited November 15, 2012 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Read this Quantum, I picked this for you.

Setting out from the city of Cherronesus, the account continues, the Amazons embarked upon great ventures, a longing having come over them to invade many parts of the inhabited world. The first people against whom they advanced, according to the tale, was the Atlantians, the most civilized men among the inhabitants of those regions, who dwelt in a prosperous country and possessed great cities; it was among them, we are told, that mythology places the birth of the gods, in the regions which lie along the shore of the ocean, in this respect agreeing with those among the Greeks who relate legends, and about this we shall speak in detail a little later. Now the queen of the Amazons, Myrina, collected, it is said, an army of thirty thousand foot-soldiers and three thousand cavalry, since they favoured to an unusual degree the use of cavalry in their wars. For protective devices they used the skins of large snakes, since Libya contains such animals of incredible size, and for offensive weapons, swords and lances; they also used bows and arrows, with which they struck not only when facing the enemy but also when in flight, by shooting backwards at their pursuers with good effect. Upon entering the land of the Atlantians they defeated in a pitched battle the inhabitants of the city Cerne, as it is called, and making their way inside the walls along with the fleeing enemy, they got the city into their hands; and desiring to strike terror into the neighbouring peoples they treated the captives savagely, put to the sword the men from the youth upward, led into slavery the children and women, and razed the city. But when the terrible fate of the inhabitants of Cerne became known among their fellow tribesmen, it is related that the Atlantians, struck with terror, surrendered their cities on terms of capitulation and announced that they would do whatever should be commanded them, and that the queen Myrina, bearing herself honourably towards the Atlantians, both established friendship with them and founded a city to bear her name in place of the city which had been razed; and in it she settled both the captives and any native who so desired. Whereupon the Atlantians presented her with magnificent presents and by public decree voted to her notable honours, and she in return accepted their courtesy and in addition promised that she would show kindness to their nation. And since the natives were often been warred upon by the Gorgons, as they were named, a folk which resided upon their borders, and in general had that people lying in wait to injure them, Myrina, they say, was asked by the Atlantians to invade the land of the afore-mentioned Gorgons. But when the Gorgons drew up their forces to resist them a mighty battle took place in which the Amazons, gaining the upper hand, slew great numbers of their opponents and took no fewer than three thousand prisoners; and since the rest had fled for refuge into a certain wooded region, Myrina untertook to set fire to the timber, being eager to destroy the race utterly, but when she found that she was unable to succeed in her attempt she retired to the borders of her country.

Diodorus

Diodorus tells us that was a time when Horus rules Egypt.

Edited November 15, 2012 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Why was it on main land and not on island. Well after Amazons conquer Atlantis they conquer land of Gorgons who were on shores of West Africa. Besides we heard that Amazons didnt knew how to sail. So how would you conquer Island then? Maybe capital of Atlantis was on lake like Aztecs capital. But we see that historian said great cities. So there were more then one. We know that Sahara was forest 10 000 BC. It have lakes. Even Amazon capital was in forest.

After they conquer Atlantis they listen to their advice. So reminds me on Mongols in China who become Chinese. Or Manchu who became more Han.

Then diplomacy went in Egypt. Suddenly Amazons change politics. I asume Egyptian gave them free pass to Arabia and Syria and Anatolia.

And when we add others historians what wrote about Atlantis and about Tartessos I can only conclude that Tartessos was colony of Atlantis or Amazon.

Or it was independet city which economy was based on Atlantis.

All criteria were fullfilled. You get land west of pillars and you get land bigger then Lybia and Asia minor.

Similarities in stories are amazing.

Edited November 15, 2012 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Poseidon was horse god too. "Earth-Shaker" due to his role in causing earthquakes, and has been called the "tamer of horses"(wiki) So is earthquake of disappearing Atlantis caused by horses? Amazons horses? A mortal woman named Cleito once lived on an isolated island; Poseidon fell in love with the human mortal and created a dwelling sanctuary at the top of a hill near the middle of the island and surrounded the dwelling with rings of water and land to protect her. She gave birth to five sets of twin boys(the firstborn who being named Atlas) became the first rulers of Atlantis

So did Poseidon, God of sea after being conquered by Amazons became God of horses.

Thats one theory but it could be that end in catastrophe same as Amazonia.

Could it be that Atlanteans used Amazons for having sex? Why Amazons didnt killed them all. They were called Manslayers.

Im not femenist but seems to me that those Girls were major players backthen. They were warlike. Like Scythians,Mongols. And when they destroy Atlantis as Mongols China or Persia they incoporated them in their troops/diplomacy because they were usefull. Same as Mongols did.

When Mongols capture their POW they asked them : What do you know to do? If you were useless you know your fate but if you are smart and clever. You live under their flag.

Edit: In my post one I forgot to mention many countries in west africa such as Algeria...

I was in hurry.

Edited November 15, 2012 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

This is from Neolithic art from Algeria

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Herodotus world map

Ofcourse he didnt wrote in Latin so if one can find real Herodotus map I would be greatfull

Edited November 15, 2012 by the L

[Sundog]

We tend to get caught up in Plato's supposed retelling of the tale of Atlantis and lose sight of the fact that Plato says that the story was originally Egyptian, and passed down to him from Solon who intern heard it from priests while on his travels through Egypt.

Plato also goes on to say that the original names for places and gods in the story were changed or Hellenized (transposed into alternate corresponding Greek names) from their original Egyptian names in order to be more familiar to his Greek audience.

Therefore if one were to look for any elements of truth to the tale of Atlantis then one would necessarily have to explore ancient Egyptian mythologies, not the Greek i.e. look for some corresponding Egyptian deities that are similar to the Greek god Poseidon and his half mortal son Atlas(2) (not to be confused with the other Atlas(1) who's labor as a Titan was to hold up the celestial sphere) and if they are associated with the sudden disappearance of a people that came from an island in the sea.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Plato also goes on to say that the original names for places and gods in the story were changed or Hellenized (transposed into alternate corresponding Greek names) from their original Egyptian names in order to be more familiar to his Greek audience.

Great idea blackdogsun. But Egypt and Maya are my weakest spot. Also Im not aware that Plato said anything about changed names.Can you give a quote? If not couldnt that just confirm my story? They called people Atlanteans, Atlantis yet they called Ocean Atlantis, Atlas son of Poseidon, people Atlanteans? They used term Atlantis before Plato as geographical term.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Lakes in past.

Med sea before sea level rise 100 m.

[docyabut2]

The Atlantis story was an Egyptian tale, not a greek tale.

Plutarch, Life of Solon 26. 1 (trans. Perrin) (Greek historian C1st - C2nd A.D.) :

"He [solon] also spent some time in studies with Psenophis of Heliopolis [in Egypt] and Sonkhis (Sonchis) of Sais, who were very learned priests. From these, as Plato says, he heard the story of the lost Atlantis, and tried to introduce it in a poetical form to the Greeks."

[cormac mac airt]

The Atlantis story was an Egyptian tale, not a greek tale.

Plutarch, Life of Solon 26. 1 (trans. Perrin) (Greek historian C1st - C2nd A.D.) :

"He [solon] also spent some time in studies with Psenophis of Heliopolis [in Egypt] and Sonkhis (Sonchis) of Sais, who were very learned priests. From these, as Plato says, he heard the story of the lost Atlantis, and tried to introduce it in a poetical form to the Greeks."

The Atlantis story exists nowhere in Egyptian texts, inscriptions, myths or legends.

cormac

[Harte]

Read the thread. You say that because you are not aware that Plato wasnt first who mentioned it. Also you are not aware of countless indications.

We put people in jail on one indication. And we have here more then 10. If you are really interested read it. It takes 15 minutes.

I will not repeat myself.

No need, you selectively repeated diodorus siculus enough.

What you've left out is that the people Siculus referred to as Atlantians in those passages were the people living around Mount Atlas in the Atlas Mountain range of North Africa. He states this in his description of the area surrounding the marsh that was the Amazons' home:

As mythology relates, their home was on an island which, because it was in the west, was called Hespera, and it lay in the marsh Tritonis. This marsh was near the ocean which surrounds the earth and received its name from a certain river Triton which emptied into it; and this marsh was also near Ethiopia and that mountain by the shore of the ocean which is the highest of those in the vicinity and impinges upon the ocean and is called by the Greeks Atlas.

IBID 3.53.4

These people were the same ones written about by Herodotus hundreds of years earlier and are not even similar to what Plato described:

184. From the Garmantians at a distance again of ten days' journey there is another hill of salt and spring of water, and men dwell round it called Atarantians, who alone of all men about whom we know are nameless; for while all taken together have the name Atarantians, each separate man of them has no name given to him. These utter curses against the Sun when he is at his height, and moreover revile him with all manner of foul terms, because he oppresses them by his burning heat, both themselves and their land. After this at a distance of ten days' journey there is another hill of salt and spring of water, and men dwell round it. Near this salt hill is a mountain named Atlas, which is small in circuit and rounded on every side; and so exceedingly lofty is it said to be, that it is not possible to see its summits, for clouds never leave them either in the summer or in the winter. This the natives say is the pillar of the heaven. After this mountain these men got their name, for they are called Atlantians; and it is said that they neither eat anything that has life nor have any dreams.

Herodotus' "Histories," Book 4 184

Hence, that's not Plato's Atlantis.

Harte

[Harte]

Atlantis is not mentioned before Plato.

As I said there are many. Im not upset. I just pointed out that I already wrote about Atlantis before Plato in previous posts.

But here is one example:

150 years before Plato.

"But one of the mouths of the Araxes flows with clarity into the Caspian Sea. Now the Caspian Sea is by itself, not connected to the other sea; but the sea navigated by all the Greeks and the one outside the Pillars called the Atlantis Sea and Erythaean are one and the same."

What your source omits is that the "Atlantis Sea" translates as the Sea of Atlas. It was so named because it was in the West, where Atlas supposedly was.

That's the Titan Atlas, not the Atlantean king Atlas.

Yes, the Greeks used Greek words before Plato. That is all your "evidence" indicates.

Try the search function. This has been beaten to death around here. Ask the Puzzler.

Harte

[Quaentum]

Diodorus writings mix reality with myth and present it as fact. For example: The Gorgons were mythological creatures, comprised of 3 women, not a tribe or nation that went to war. This alone makes it necessary to carefully scrutinize his works to remove the fantasy from the fact.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Diodorus writings mix reality with myth and present it as fact. For example: The Gorgons were mythological creatures, comprised of 3 women, not a tribe or nation that went to war. This alone makes it necessary to carefully scrutinize his works to remove the fantasy from the fact.

Now it just that you remember Gorgons as mythical creatures so you think Amazons attack monsters.

Also mythology doesnt work that way. Im sure that 95% myths are based on true events just people didn have been able to put it in words because of countless factors.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

What your source omits is that the "Atlantis Sea" translates as the Sea of Atlas. It was so named because it was in the West, where Atlas supposedly was.

That's the Titan Atlas, not the Atlantean king Atlas.

Yes, the Greeks used Greek words before Plato. That is all your "evidence" indicates.

Harte

Earth is moving around Sun therfore Atlantis didnt exist.

What kind of argument is that Greeks used Greek words before Plato. That isnt what my evidence indicates.

My evidence indicates what Greek Historian wrote. That Amazons attack Atlanteans.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

No need, you selectively repeated diodorus siculus enough.

What you've left out is that the people Siculus referred to as Atlantians in those passages were the people living around Mount Atlas in the Atlas Mountain range of North Africa. He states this in his description of the area surrounding the marsh that was the Amazons' home:

IBID 3.53.4

These people were the same ones written about by Herodotus hundreds of years earlier and are not even similar to what Plato described:

Herodotus' "Histories," Book 4 184

Hence, that's not Plato's Atlantis.

Harte

As mythology relates....so he connected mythology to it. But he doesnt state that is mythology when he say that Amazons attack Atlanteans.

From your quote of Herodotus:

Atlantians; and it is said that they neither eat anything that has life nor have any dreams.

Text Santi Parva spoke about Atala white island with white men who never have to sleep or eat.

Imagine that.

[Harte]

Earth is moving around Sun therfore Atlantis didnt exist.

What kind of argument is that Greeks used Greek words before Plato. That isnt what my evidence indicates.

My evidence indicates what Greek Historian wrote. That Amazons attack Atlanteans.

250 years after Plato, Siculus wrote some junk.

Your posted pic of the Greek writing - it comes from the Histories I quoted - only indicates that the Greeks used Greek words before Plato - words like Atlantis which actually means coming from, having to do with, or of, Atlas.

Herodotus says nothing about Atlantis. He mentions a sea with the name "The Sea of Atlas."

Leaving it in the Greek instead of translating it doesn't change the fact.

Harte

[Harte]

As mythology relates....so he connected mythology to it. But he doesnt state that is mythology when he say that Amazons attack Atlanteans.

From your quote of Herodotus:

Atlantians; and it is said that they neither eat anything that has life nor have any dreams.

Text Santi Parva spoke about Atala white island with white men who never have to sleep or eat.

Imagine that.

I'm fully aware of Atala, one of the seven heavens (all called Atala, collectively) in the Hindu underworld.

There is no "white island" in Hindu reality.

Unless you also believe in a Sea of Milk. Literal Milk.

Harte

Edited November 16, 2012 by Harte

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Herodotus says nothing about Atlantis. He mentions a sea with the name "The Sea of Atlas."

Herodotus:

Atlantians; and it is said that they neither eat anything that has life nor have any dreams.

From link you provided.

250 years after Plato, Siculus wrote some junk.

Because that doesnt fit in your view its junk.

[Orcseeker]

I love seeing these threads on UM titled with unsubstantiated definitives.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Orcseeker