Hinduism and Aryan

[Big Bad Voodoo]

It would be the right general area, but again that wouldn't make it an origin point.

cormac

Mitanni were IE people. So I thought why not? Around them were mostly semitic people.

Cormac, what do you think from where Hittites came in Anatolia?

[me-wonders]

Indra which is now worshiped by Hinduists. Its in fact Perun, Thor, Zeus. Also Varuna water god is worshiped by IE. IE also believed in Zoroastrianisms/Budhists/Vedic Mithra.

Wheres Anatolia there?

Jung would explain this as sharing symbolism. It seems to occur even when there is no connect between cultures. For sure many cultures assigned an importance to the north, east, south and west. I disagree with Cormac's opinion that you read too much into similarities. There is a benefit to seeing similarities. And why shouldn't there be similarities? We share the human experience. However, there are climate differences that effect survival needs and therefore, our understanding of life and especially something as important as our understanding of the Creator and what is required of us. H. G. Wells defines this as a difference between the hunters of the north and the farmers of the south, and how these different cultures have interacted throughout history.

This link says India was first settled by herders who migrated to India and later the Aryans who were also herders arrived. The Harappan are credited with the first indoor plumbing, and grid streets, and the Aryans are credited with writing and the religion.

India's Harappan and Aryan Ancient Civilizations | Suite101

suite101.com/.../indias-harappan-and-aryan-ancient-civilizations-a21...

Mar 26, 2010 – India's Harappan and Aryan Ancient Civilizations. The history of India began as nomadic herders settled in the Indus River Valley between ...

I had to look up Perun and wonder if anyone is interested in comparing the gods? That Perun is represented by oak trees really gets my attention because oaks were also sacred to Celts. Every time I get into ancient history, I am blown away by what appears to much more traveling and contact between groups of people than expected. Is it just me, or do others find all this traveling and contact and similarity of gods interesting? http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/453296/Perun Should we open a thread for comparing the gods?

Edited November 30, 2012 by me-wonders

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Indra which is now worshiped by Hinduists. Its in fact Perun, Thor, Zeus. Also Varuna water god is worshiped by IE. IE also believed in Zoroastrianisms/Budhists/Vedic Mithra

Yet, Perun, in all Slavic languages has a major difference from other similar souding names of "thunder god". It is the omission in Slavic of "K" in the word, unlike Baltic Perkunas, Perkons and the Indian version Parjanya. The "K" and Indian equivalent come from the root of "oak", and to include this in the name Perun would have been very taboo. I think it shows a link between some IE languages about the same thunder god, but I think that Perun has a different origin and is purely Slavic.

[me-wonders]

Methinks i thinks that you got the whole migration concept in reverse.Modern and up to date facts are supporting the converse of the theory you put forward,i.e Out of India Theory,you might like to check it out.

I think I mentioned this possibility and my regrets for not remembering where I picked up this information. Perhaps because of how this thread shaped my searching, it keeps coming up that the Aryans are responsible for the religion. I must say, this conflicting information and not being able to find all of it is frustrating. It is also nice to have more people posting. Do you have a link for the theory that things from from India?

[me-wonders]

I don't know about 'noble' but peaceful, perhaps. There's definitely no evidence of any sort of "invasion" meaning an incoming peoples forcing themselves, primarily through war, on more indigenous peoples.

cormac

Yes, there is evidence, but you are rejecting it, and I don't think you should be doing this.

[cormac mac airt]

Yes, there is evidence, but you are rejecting it, and I don't think you should be doing this.

No there's not. I know full-well what the genetics studies as well as the archaeological evidence has shown and you've made it rather obvious that you not only don't understand them, but you also don't understand that any earlier studies or finds looking into the claim have been superceded by more recent studies that have shown conclusively there was no Aryan Invasion.

cormac

Edited November 30, 2012 by cormac mac airt

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Yet, Perun, in all Slavic languages has a major difference from other similar souding names of "thunder god". It is the omission in Slavic of "K" in the word, unlike Baltic Perkunas, Perkons and the Indian version Parjanya. The "K" and Indian equivalent come from the root of "oak", and to include this in the name Perun would have been very taboo. I think it shows a link between some IE languages about the same thunder god, but I think that Perun has a different origin and is purely Slavic.

Perun is Slavic name for Thunder god. Its same god as Zeus or Thor. Origin of it is proto IE gods.

Jung would explain this as sharing symbolism. It seems to occur even when there is no connect between cultures. For sure many cultures assigned an importance to the north, east, south and west. I disagree with Cormac's opinion that you read too much into similarities. There is a benefit to seeing similarities. And why shouldn't there be similarities? We share the human experience. However, there are climate differences that effect survival needs and therefore, our understanding of life and especially something as important as our understanding of the Creator and what is required of us. H. G. Wells defines this as a difference between the hunters of the north and the farmers of the south, and how these different cultures have interacted throughout history.

Although I love Jung he is not first to introduce idea. I dont think that agriculture or climate start civilization in the first place. In fact we have evidence that isnt rule.

Anyway Im already glad that I met you judging on this post.

[me-wonders]

Perun is Slavic name for Thunder god. Its same god as Zeus or Thor. Origin of it is proto IE gods.

Although I love Jung he is not first to introduce idea. I dont think that agriculture or climate start civilization in the first place. In fact we have evidence that isnt rule.

Anyway Im already glad that I met you judging on this post.

For sure discussing matters such as how civilizations came about, pleases me. More recent research indicates we are born with more knowledge of the world than was previous expected, and this is line with other animals. However, socially we different from chimps. It is the social difference that leads to civilizations, and it is civilizations that distance us from animals. From here I believe, climate and therefore survival needs, make a big difference in social organization and consciousness.

I ask you do consider the possibility that In the harsh climate of the north, male dominance might be more likely than in the gentle climate known to be the cradle of civilizations. In the harsh northern climate there is little land good for farming, and even less suitable weather. Survival depends on hunting and this might favor male domination? It does mean a different consciousness. Genghis Khan killed everyone in his path and razed the land, returning it to pasture land good for horses, until he took on a Chinese man with the skill of writing. This Chinese man had the consciousness of agriculture. This is a consciousness of planting and harvesting and is more apt to a matriarchy because the earth, like a woman, is the womb of life, and we must wait after planting before we can harvest. This is a completely different consciousness from nomadic herders and hunters, and it was the Chinese man who convinced Genghis Khan, to harvest cities instead of razing them to the ground.

Really this makes a difference in this discussion, because I am quite sure patriarchy came from the north, and agricultural communities were matriarchies. Isis was the bread and water long before Jesus was the bread and wine. Wine because it is more the color of blood. The story of Caine and Able is a story of patriarchy taking over a matriarchy. I am probably getting off topic now, and to bring it back on track, Vedic thinking establishes a class society, and matriarchies are not class societies. Herders own animals, and owning wives and slaves is in line with this thinking. It is patriarchy not matriarchy. Civilization in the south is more likely to have started with grandmothers, who take care of the young, than by herders. Nomads can not carry with them to clutter of things that make us civilizations with culture. But while you are waiting for the harvest, you might play games and make pots and decorate homes. Different consciousness.

Edited December 3, 2012 by me-wonders

[Harte]

Perun is Slavic name for Thunder god. Its same god as Zeus or Thor. Origin of it is proto IE gods.

Same thunder, different god.

That is, unexplained phenomena like lightning, thunder, rain, the sky, the sun, the moon, wind, etc. require supernatural explanations if you have no way of knowing what they actually are.

Harte

[Big Bad Voodoo]

me wonders,

I once start questioned did agriculture was first sign of our decline in general?

Hira Ratan Manek or Hirachand Ratanashi is not founder but expander of solar yoga or sun gazing.

He survived 411 days without food. He was observed by doctors in his atempts.

Second time when he was doing NASA observed him. We are 80 % water. We eat because those 20%.

He said that when our mind accept it body adopt. He also stressed that construction workers spent 3000 calories and eat 1500 calories. So where rest came from? Sun.

Jesus walk 40 days in desert. Maybe he used sun. Many stigmatas dont eat at all. Bleeding and live. Recent Kid Biddha didnt eat nothing for months.

So question is raised is agriculture destroyed humanity? In north hemisphere during winter we have Blues disease. In Scandinavia. I heard that doctors treat patient with strong light emitet at them.

Eye sight can be corrected with laser. Sun is like laser.Hepatitis is cured with Sun.

40 minutes in sunset for 6 months and you are healed.

I will not say that Lizards/Shapechangers/Aliens like David Icke introduce agriculture but its interesting that first sites are in mountains rather then in valleys.

Bottom of line-If he coud survive year without food just doing yoga in Sun...then truth is much bigger then we are thought.

But then again we have evidence that some civilization arent built on agriculture.

There are indication that our DNK knows more then we know.

I agree (for what we know today) that culture make us different from animals.

But I would not agree that north hemisphere cause patriarchal social system. What about Rome? They were on Med. Or Inuits who were on ice cap.

I personally studied Mongols for years. They are unique extraordinary case in history. If ever ET came they would probably be like Mongols. Ice cold calculated self sufficent nomad killing swarm of bee machine. They are hard to compare with settle civilizations. They arent like Vikings on north. They were nomadic people. They have different style of living then any known civilizations. They adopted their lofe style to stepe. But were they in art, writtings, science behind Chinese? Sure. But China was leading till industrial revolution happened. France, Italy, Germany, England were backward countries comparing to Chinese. Mongols were different from them all. Besides their wives were equal to men. They ride horses, they were soldiers if they wanted to be. There were records from Europeans that they treated their wives with much respect and that they are real ladies. Mongols were not Barbarians.Bu they had different consciousness. Anyway I would leave Mongols from any analogy because any historian will tell you that they are special all the way or took any historical record (arab,chinese,european) to see it.

Although I found interesting idea that matriarchy is connected to agriculture. I see where you going with Cain and Abel and Isis. I must say that your theory has logic I would say that herders and hunters arent same.

Waiting wheat or waiting sheep to eat grass is same. Difference is hunting I guess. But then again took native Americans. They were hunter gatherers till european came and they have time for their spiritual world. Hunting also dont need much time I guess.

Agriculture could took time. You need to dig canals for water, you need to spread seed. Just guessing.

Edited December 3, 2012 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Same thunder, different god.

That is, unexplained phenomena like lightning, thunder, rain, the sky, the sun, the moon, wind, etc. require supernatural explanations if you have no way of knowing what they actually are.

Harte

It isnt just thunder. Thors hammer evolved into hammer. Rituals are same and so on.

[Harte]

It isnt just thunder. Thors hammer evolved into hammer. Rituals are same and so on.

Where's Zeus' hammer?

Harte

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Dont know much "thunderbolt" which can be coined as one coined by Hephaestus.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Rituals as creating fire at high peaks on mountains. Jump over fire. Later Elijah the Thunderer took Zeus role in Greece and Peruns role in Slavic lands.

[LRW]

Yes, there is evidence, but you are rejecting it, and I don't think you should be doing this.

The ancient world is not exactly his expertise.

He obviously never heard of the caste system in India and who brought it there. It certainly was not dark skinned people such as Dravidians. Even in modern times, the upper caste system in India are lighter than the lower castes in physical appearance. The darker classes were once branded as outcasts, and it was forbidden for "Noble Ones" to have sex with them, because they were seen as inferior by the elite higher echelons of the ruling caste who brought their religon there and culture there. The darker skinned people were actually not allowed to be in the caste system so they were branded as "Untouchables" in other words, not to be touched physically, because they were considered dirty etc. Even in modern times, untouchables in India are still discriminated against.

Mating did occur however, and the "Noble ones" became unpure, that explains the darker appearance of the upper caste people in north india, they are not as light as europeans in general, in other words "The Real Noble Ones" whose ancient religons were destroyed by christianity.

Also, i do not see the reason why you would use the word "Aryan" that word is a corruption, the invaders of India did not call themselves "Aryan" used a similar title and word, but slightly different, i think its better to just refer to them as "The Noble Ones" the light skinned and light eyed adepts who brought their knowledge and culture to the region of India. .

[me-wonders]

me wonders,

I once start questioned did agriculture was first sign of our decline in general?

Hira Ratan Manek or Hirachand Ratanashi is not founder but expander of solar yoga or sun gazing.

He survived 411 days without food. He was observed by doctors in his atempts.

Second time when he was doing NASA observed him. We are 80 % water. We eat because those 20%.

He said that when our mind accept it body adopt. He also stressed that construction workers spent 3000 calories and eat 1500 calories. So where rest came from? Sun.

Jesus walk 40 days in desert. Maybe he used sun. Many stigmatas dont eat at all. Bleeding and live. Recent Kid Biddha didnt eat nothing for months.

So question is raised is agriculture destroyed humanity? In north hemisphere during winter we have Blues disease. In Scandinavia. I heard that doctors treat patient with strong light emitet at them.

Eye sight can be corrected with laser. Sun is like laser.Hepatitis is cured with Sun.

40 minutes in sunset for 6 months and you are healed.

I will not say that Lizards/Shapechangers/Aliens like David Icke introduce agriculture but its interesting that first sites are in mountains rather then in valleys.

Bottom of line-If he coud survive year without food just doing yoga in Sun...then truth is much bigger then we are thought.

But then again we have evidence that some civilization arent built on agriculture.

There are indication that our DNK knows more then we know.

I agree (for what we know today) that culture make us different from animals.

But I would not agree that north hemisphere cause patriarchal social system. What about Rome? They were on Med. Or Inuits who were on ice cap.

I personally studied Mongols for years. They are unique extraordinary case in history. If ever ET came they would probably be like Mongols. Ice cold calculated self sufficent nomad killing swarm of bee machine. They are hard to compare with settle civilizations. They arent like Vikings on north. They were nomadic people. They have different style of living then any known civilizations. They adopted their lofe style to stepe. But were they in art, writtings, science behind Chinese? Sure. But China was leading till industrial revolution happened. France, Italy, Germany, England were backward countries comparing to Chinese. Mongols were different from them all. Besides their wives were equal to men. They ride horses, they were soldiers if they wanted to be. There were records from Europeans that they treated their wives with much respect and that they are real ladies. Mongols were not Barbarians.Bu they had different consciousness. Anyway I would leave Mongols from any analogy because any historian will tell you that they are special all the way or took any historical record (arab,chinese,european) to see it.

Although I found interesting idea that matriarchy is connected to agriculture. I see where you going with Cain and Abel and Isis. I must say that your theory has logic I would say that herders and hunters arent same.

Waiting wheat or waiting sheep to eat grass is same. Difference is hunting I guess. But then again took native Americans. They were hunter gatherers till european came and they have time for their spiritual world. Hunting also dont need much time I guess.

Agriculture could took time. You need to dig canals for water, you need to spread seed. Just guessing.

Can we get to your question and the comment about early sites being in mountains, not valleys, because this is really my question.

edited addition.

Hum I have to come back to this question about agriculture being down fall. I do not think so. When people can stay put and have full bellies, it frees them to explore the arts, from painting and weaving, to music and medicine. Migrating people do not have this luxury. Try living in your car for six months and see if that doesn't make life more challenging, leaving you less time and effort for higher level thinking.

However, the nomadic people in general seem more interested in technology. See a difference here? It is kind of like the difference between liberal education and education for technology. Civilization as we know it, requires development in both the arts and philosophy and development in technology. Huge temples and government buildings are not possible without technology, and they are built by nomadic people.

The up tick in evolution from apes to humans, may have been cooking. Cooking increases the nutrition we get from our food, and requires less guts for digestion, and less time spent on foraging for food. When our guts are full we have more time for socializing. The miracle of humanity, is the result of socializing and then the ability to preserve what is thought and learned in writing. Our pool of information today is much greater than in any previous time in history. This is what separates us from the animals.

The ancient world is not exactly his expertise.

He obviously never heard of the caste system in India and who brought it there. It certainly was not dark skinned people such as Dravidians. Even in modern times, the upper caste system in India are lighter than the lower castes in physical appearance. The darker classes were once branded as outcasts, and it was forbidden for "Noble Ones" to have sex with them, because they were seen as inferior by the elite higher echelons of the ruling caste who brought their religon there and culture there. The darker skinned people were actually not allowed to be in the caste system so they were branded as "Untouchables" in other words, not to be touched physically, because they were considered dirty etc. Even in modern times, untouchables in India are still discriminated against.

Mating did occur however, and the "Noble ones" became unpure, that explains the darker appearance of the upper caste people in north india, they are not as light as europeans in general, in other words "The Real Noble Ones" whose ancient religons were destroyed by christianity.

Also, i do not see the reason why you would use the word "Aryan" that word is a corruption, the invaders of India did not call themselves "Aryan" used a similar title and word, but slightly different, i think its better to just refer to them as "The Noble Ones" the light skinned and light eyed adepts who brought their knowledge and culture to the region of India. .

I used the word Aryan because is that is the word the professor I was listening to at the time, used. When the word was challenged I googled for more information, and came back with the information I found. No big deal. I personally don't care what people are called, because names change so much. However, I do wonder why some people are so light skinned and why some people became so interested in the heavens, and why so many early sites are high in the mountains. I regret that I used Aryan in the title of this thread, and that that word became an issue, instead being less confrontational and more interesting. I had no idea how important that word is to some people.

Can we just go with, evidently light skinned people entered the valley with the Vedic culture, and the same racism that occurred north America. I am not sure, but were the Aztecs expecting a White God when the accepted the Spanish as the expected God? Perhaps this should be the subject of its own thread? In Egypt wasn't the ruler White? At a later time a Black man made himself the pharaoh of Egypt. We do have a mixing of races here, but what is with those White guys? Where did the come from and why do they seem to take the position of Noble Ones? This is not just in India, but it happened all over the world. What is with this? It is like 6000 years ago there was change around the world, and there are strange sites around the world, and this more interesting than if the people who entered India would agree they were Aryans or not. Now the title Noble One's is interesting. How many human communities aspire to be noble? What does it mean to be a Noble One? Something is happening here that is dfferent. But in the west you have people giving themselves names that "the real people" and this might be psychologically equal to the Noble One's?

Oh, oh one of my books argues that people who move to find better lives for themselves are superior to those who settle and do not move. These are different personality types, and might some be born with the nature that is perhaps more driven and therefore more apt to rule? Like the color of skin is carried in genes, might personality type be carried in genes?

We can know, when these people moved into India, there was a shift from female gods to male gods. This is a shift from matriarchy to patriarchy, and it happened everywhere. Sooner or later, males become dominant, and the culture supports their domination. There is evidence that matriarchies did not have large temples and larger than life statues of men and gods. Where we see large temples and large government buildings, and armies and taxes put on the common people to pay for all this, we see a patriarchy. Now my thinking has gone all over the board, and there is no main subject, but in my head this stuff goes together. I wonder what is happening here, and really don't care what labels we put on the people. Come on, native Americans didn't call themselves Indians. Seriously, how important is a name? The Greeks are mix of people. The Jews did the best job of avoiding mixing with others, but seriously how pure are they are now? What is important?

Edited December 7, 2012 by me-wonders

[me-wonders]

Same thunder, different god.

That is, unexplained phenomena like lightning, thunder, rain, the sky, the sun, the moon, wind, etc. require supernatural explanations if you have no way of knowing what they actually are.

Harte

Please start a thread about nature and gods. I want to discuss it, but don't want to steal from you the inspiration to contemplate this matter. Be sure to PM when you start the thread.

[+DieChecker]

So then if we do assume that DNA studies have shown there was no invasion, are we left with the choice of the Aryan peoples popping up inside India? With chariots, Vedic legends, and all?

Edited December 8, 2012 by DieChecker

[cormac mac airt]

So then if we do assume that DNA studies have shown there was no invasion, are we left with the choice of the Aryan peoples popping up inside India? With chariots, Vedic legends, and all?

What we're left with are multiple migrations of peoples, into and out of India, over hundreds to thousands of years. None of which can be attributed to the specific timeframe of c.1500 BC which is the basis of the AIT.

cormac

[+DieChecker]

What we're left with are multiple migrations of peoples, into and out of India, over hundreds to thousands of years. None of which can be attributed to the specific timeframe of c.1500 BC which is the basis of the AIT.

cormac

Ahhhh... I think that is the point I was missing. There was no "invasion", as in waves of soldiers coming down the hills of the Himolayas, but there was tribes, technology, and ideas moving into and out of the area. And eventually those conglomerated into the group called the Aryans?

[cormac mac airt]

Ahhhh... I think that is the point I was missing. There was no "invasion", as in waves of soldiers coming down the hills of the Himolayas, but there was tribes, technology, and ideas moving into and out of the area. And eventually those conglomerated into the group called the Aryans?

That's pretty much it. Sadly, there are many here who don't appear to understand the difference. The AIT and fringe ideas behind same have only helped to make matters worse.

cormac

[Knight Ryder]

The absence of Horses & Chariots seems to be a common reason cited several times to cling on to whatever is left of the AIT/AMT.

For people interested in the subject, here's an interesting article:

http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/pdf/en/indology/The_horse_and_the_Aryan_Debate.pdf

[Frank Merton]

Several ancient Indian beliefs, shared with the Dravidian people of the south, such as the rebirth cycle, karma, meditation and the sacredness of all sentient life forms, are shared with all the other India-originating religions.

Unique to Hinduism is the pantheon of deities and the caste system, which are similar to other Indo-European religions and apparently came in with the "invaders" as they took over the ruler-ship of the northern parts of the subcontinent.

[kmt_sesh]

Our most ardent Hindu nationalist and revisionist was removed from UM some time ago, so I don't know how long the resurrection of this thread will last. All constructive comments are welcome, however.

I have to wonder where some Indian peoples get their information and how they're being educated. I stress "some" because this is certainly not the case across the board. In my work in our Egyptian exhibit at the museum I've encountered a great many Hindus, and they're almost always exceedingly polite, friendly, and inquisitive. Their children are very well behaved and respectful. I nearly always enjoy interacting with Hindus.

I can't say I've ever had a negative experience with one, but more than once I've seen strains of nationalistic revisionism. One of my favorite of all ancient peoples is Alexander the Great, and just last weekend I met a friendly young Hindu man who was trying to convince me that Alexander lost to Porus at the battle of the Hydapses (326 BCE). It's a basic historical fact that Alexander won every single battle in which he led his men, from Granicus in Asia Minor to Malli in the Lower Indus.

I'm left wondering where this young man I met got his information and who in the hell was teaching him.

[+DieChecker]

I have to wonder where some Indian peoples get their information and how they're being educated. I stress "some" because this is certainly not the case across the board. In my work in our Egyptian exhibit at the museum I've encountered a great many Hindus, and they're almost always exceedingly polite, friendly, and inquisitive. Their children are very well behaved and respectful. I nearly always enjoy interacting with Hindus.

Working at Intel here in Oregon, somewhere between a quarter and third of the Engineers are Indian, and the ones I know are very modern and well educated. I've yet to meet an Indian who is a crazed religious fanatic though and usually Engineers don't fall into that catagory.