Protesting Israeli Settlement Plan

[questionmark 11,357]

Israel's plan to expand settlement construction has drawn fierce international criticism, with Britain and France considering the withdrawal of their ambassadors and Germany expressing serious concern. UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said the plan could deal an "almost fatal blow" to solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon on Sunday sharply criticized the Israeli government's plan to expand settlement building in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem, calling the plan an "an almost fatal blow" to a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

On Monday, Britain and France said they were considering measures to protest against the decision, which came in the wake of the United Nations' de facto recognition of Palestinian statehood last week.

Read more

[and then 23,385]

The rumor of British and French Ambassadors being recalled is just that - rumor. Hollande has already said he's not thinking of sanction but talks to defuse the situation. Britain summoned the Israeli Ambassador to give him an earful but no break in relations is mentioned there either. This step by Israel is a measured diplomatic salvo in return for the Palestinian abrogation of Oslo. It actually only amounts to preparatory work at this point - no where near construction phase. It's a shot across the bow to make Abbas put up or shut up IMO. Interesting that Ban thinks the world is coming to an end when Israel retaliates for Palestinian violation of a valid agreement yet says nothing of the violations that brought on the retaliation. Just more of the same tiresome double standard. It's like the region is sleepwalking toward war.

[questionmark 11,357]

The rumor of British and French Ambassadors being recalled is just that - rumor. Hollande has already said he's not thinking of sanction but talks to defuse the situation. Britain summoned the Israeli Ambassador to give him an earful but no break in relations is mentioned there either. This step by Israel is a measured diplomatic salvo in return for the Palestinian abrogation of Oslo. It actually only amounts to preparatory work at this point - no where near construction phase. It's a shot across the bow to make Abbas put up or shut up IMO. Interesting that Ban thinks the world is coming to an end when Israel retaliates for Palestinian violation of a valid agreement yet says nothing of the violations that brought on the retaliation. Just more of the same tiresome double standard. It's like the region is sleepwalking toward war.

And all this action is a shot across Bibi's bow: The world is not ready to accept anything more than the '67 borders and if they can't agree on Jerusalem to have it under international control (with both the Palestinian and Israeli seat of government there). Nothing else will be recognized by the world community. If the settlers want to keep their settlements outside those borders they will be living in Palestine, not Israel. All really simple.

And how thin the international communities patience with Israel is growing has been amply demonstrated by Germany (who mostly lets Israel get away with murder) abstaining on the Palestinian statehood vote.

[Mr.United_Nations 2,670]

Think you find Germany is on the Palestinians side now questionmark

[and then 23,385]

And all this action is a shot across Bibi's bow: The world is not ready to accept anything more than the '67 borders and if they can't agree on Jerusalem to have it under international control (with both the Palestinian and Israeli seat of government there). Nothing else will be recognized by the world community. If the settlers want to keep their settlements outside those borders they will be living in Palestine, not Israel. All really simple.

And how thin the international communities patience with Israel is growing has been amply demonstrated by Germany (who mostly lets Israel get away with murder) abstaining on the Palestinian statehood vote.

Oh, I'm aware that the august international body is stomping it's feet like a spoiled child over Israel's refusal to play by their rules but what, exactly, can they do to enforce anything? No one is going to go to war over it. The settlements at worst would be independent entities in the midst of "Palestine" that actually trump it's sovereignty in real world realities. This can continue to devolve or the UN can get serious and force Abbas and Haniya(?) to the table with real concessions. It might just amaze everyone the result if they did that. The settlers would be furious but the Israeli government would JUMP at the chance for peace if it could be guaranteed by the US. Frankly I think the trend here is against Israel because the international community has begun to actually believe their own propaganda about the parties to this conflict. Sanctions may be forthcoming and eventually Israel will be driven into a corner. It might sound like a cause for joy but I assure you it won't have a happy ending.

[questionmark 11,357]

Oh, I'm aware that the august international body is stomping it's feet like a spoiled child over Israel's refusal to play by their rules but what, exactly, can they do to enforce anything? No one is going to go to war over it. The settlements at worst would be independent entities in the midst of "Palestine" that actually trump it's sovereignty in real world realities. This can continue to devolve or the UN can get serious and force Abbas and Haniya(?) to the table with real concessions. It might just amaze everyone the result if they did that. The settlers would be furious but the Israeli government would JUMP at the chance for peace if it could be guaranteed by the US. Frankly I think the trend here is against Israel because the international community has begun to actually believe their own propaganda about the parties to this conflict. Sanctions may be forthcoming and eventually Israel will be driven into a corner. It might sound like a cause for joy but I assure you it won't have a happy ending.

Boycott Israel.

Just like they boycott Iran. With one difference, there won't be any Chinese and Russians to keep Israel going to the loo.

[Mr.United_Nations 2,670]

Or Australians now it seems they have joined in too, a supporter of Israel too. Israel is becoming arrogant and a rude nation

[and then 23,385]

Boycott Israel.

Just like they boycott Iran. With one difference, there won't be any Chinese and Russians to keep Israel going to the loo.

My guess is that will eventually happen. And just like with Iran it will hurt the average citizen but change nothing about their policies. You know, Q, it would be a lot easier for an agreement to be struck if Israel was being offered something other than promises not to kill their people if they'd only give up more land. Especially when it's been proven that their enemies cannot be trusted. The harder the world pushes the harsher Israel's actions will be. Unless the Kadima crowd is elected. Then there might be an orgasm of "land for peace" swaps that will be met yet again with more violence by the Palestinians. All of Palestine must be liberated, you know?

[questionmark 11,357]

My guess is that will eventually happen. And just like with Iran it will hurt the average citizen but change nothing about their policies. You know, Q, it would be a lot easier for an agreement to be struck if Israel was being offered something other than promises not to kill their people if they'd only give up more land. Especially when it's been proven that their enemies cannot be trusted. The harder the world pushes the harsher Israel's actions will be. Unless the Kadima crowd is elected. Then there might be an orgasm of "land for peace" swaps that will be met yet again with more violence by the Palestinians. All of Palestine must be liberated, you know?

The only thing the world has to offer Israel is the recommendation to grow up, after 60 years they should have gotten the hang on how to be a normal state by now.

And no, Israel wont stop it expansion policies by itself until the last Palestinian is in Jordan.

[Corp 1,426]

A votes goes against them and Israel throws a hissy fit and further damages possible peace talks. Classy.

[WHO U KIDDIN 338]

The only thing the world has to offer Israel is the recommendation to grow up, after 60 years they should have gotten the hang on how to be a normal state by now.

And no, Israel wont stop it expansion policies by itself until the last Palestinian is in Jordan.

And no, Israel wont stop it expansion policies by itself until the last Palestinian is in Jordan.

That does seem to be their endgame... Then wonders why people don't sympathize with them.

Currently what little land that is left to the West Bank's Palestinian communities amounts to nothing more then walled in 'reservations' as demonstrated by these maps:

[and then 23,385]

The only thing the world has to offer Israel is the recommendation to grow up, after 60 years they should have gotten the hang on how to be a normal state by now.

And no, Israel wont stop it expansion policies by itself until the last Palestinian is in Jordan.

If that had happened in 1947 as it should have then there would be no problem. Many times in the past, people have been dispossessed of their land and had no recourse but to move on. The Arabs have 1000 times as much land as the Israelis yet we're supposed to believe that if Israel gives up the WB then erryting will be ayree mon.

The problem isn't the amount of land Israel sits on. The problem is the very existence of the State itself. I wish people would just have the integrity to admit this.

[Erikl 159]

Boycott Israel.

Just like they boycott Iran. With one difference, there won't be any Chinese and Russians to keep Israel going to the loo.

Wrong. Boycotting Israel will only make Islamist and anti-peace forces having more hope they can get rid of Israel. The problem is they don't accept Israel's right to exist, regardless of what Israel does or will do. Any boycott will also make Israeli extremists more popular among Israelis.

[and then 23,385]

Wrong. Boycotting Israel will only make Islamist and anti-peace forces having more hope they can get rid of Israel. The problem is they don't accept Israel's right to exist, regardless of what Israel does or will do. Any boycott will also make Israeli extremists more popular among Israelis.

It's amazing to me that they seem to think that Israel is someday going to be "shamed" into just committing national suicide because other nations virulently hate it. I'd call it childish but it goes way beyond that. It really is insane.

[WHO U KIDDIN 338]

It's amazing to me that they seem to think that Israel is someday going to be "shamed" into just committing national suicide because other nations virulently hate it. I'd call it childish but it goes way beyond that. It really is insane.

Israel is already committing hari kari by shunning the entire international community's calls for a fair and just resolution to the Palestinian conflict. If presently more then 90% of world opinion is against Israeli intransigence on the matter then it will be just a matter of time before world wide boycotts force the issue. Apartheid has no lovers.

Edited December 5, 2012 by WHO U KIDDIN

[and then 23,385]

Israel is already committing hari kari by shunning the entire international community's calls for a fair and just resolution to the Palestinian conflict. If presently more then 90% of world opinion is against Israeli intransigence on the matter then it will be just a matter of time before world wide boycotts force the issue. Apartheid has no lovers.

[media=]

[/media]

Man, the world's solution to this problem is for Israel to just go away and that's never going to happen. The Palestinians want all the land -period - and will accept nothing less. They may be willing to come at it in pieces but any leader in that community that actually tried to make peace with Israel would be assassinated immediately - and they know it. And Israel is slowly being pushed into a corner by the global community. But that hardly means they are defeated. In fact this condition makes the world much more dangerous for us all.

[shanlung 22]

*snip*

In the meantime, Israel knows that they can take out with impunity anyone who stand in their way.

Israel go laughing into their 3000 new settlements now. That on top of the 500,000 Israelis already living in the Occupied Land now since the parody of Oslo and Peace Talk started.

It is time that Palestinians and Hamas be given weapons a lot better than the sticks and stones that they have now.

It is now clear Israel has no intention of Peace and all intention of Lebensrauming.

While the rest of the world wring their hands and shout or whisper for peace, real or hypocritically, the march of the Israelites into land of other people will continue.

The only way to stop that is to allow real meaningful arms to the people whose land is stolen from.

Let the people whose land is stolen from be allowed to fight a fair fight, not a fight with their sticks and stones against helicopter gunships and accurate rockets and cluster bombs.

Edited December 5, 2012 by libstaK
please refrain from personal attacks on fellow members

[libstaK 6,399]

Time for a reminder that while others may hold opposing views it is a part of the forum rules to refrain from personal attacks and debate the topic not the personalities of our fellow members.

• 5a. Personal attacks: Attack the point being presented, not the person who is making it.
  
• 5e. Disrespectful conduct: Do not be rude, unpleasant or disrespectful towards other members - always be polite and courteous.
  
• 3e. Flamebaiting: Do not taunt or bait another member in to an argument.
  

Remain on topic folks.

Edited December 5, 2012 by libstaK

[Sir Wearer of Hats 22,785]

Man, the world's solution to this problem is for Israel to just go away and that's never going to happen. The Palestinians want all the land -period - and will accept nothing less. They may be willing to come at it in pieces but any leader in that community that actually tried to make peace with Israel would be assassinated immediately - and they know it. And Israel is slowly being pushed into a corner by the global community. But that hardly means they are defeated. In fact this condition makes the world much more dangerous for us all.

I was under the impression that the world's solution to the problem is for both aides to atop killing each other and for both sides to sit down and not stop talking until they reach a settlement both sides agrees to.

[and then 23,385]

I was under the impression that the world's solution to the problem is for both aides to atop killing each other and for both sides to sit down and not stop talking until they reach a settlement both sides agrees to.

Then, respectfully WoH, I'd say you are mistaken. The history of this conflict readily proves that Israel is held to a different standard. They have had to deal with the entire world beginning with the premise that they are an illegitimate State and that no matter what is done to them they should accept it without much complaint. They are routinely blamed even for efforts at self defense. Perhaps you can cite an instance where the Palestinians under threat of sanction have been forced to come to a table and be serious in negotiating? Clinton tried this but Arafat blew him off and started a second intifada - even when the PM had offered him a STAGGERINGLY generous deal. He even gave up East Jerusalem. Arafat knew that his bluff was called and he'd have to agree - and probably be assassinated - or refuse the deal and start the bloodletting again. I don't expect my opinions on this conflict to change anyone's mind but I at least can point out the realities as they appear to the Israeli side of the coin. When the world slides into a major war over this region the "sides" will have already been chosen and positions hardened. The only thing left will be for the military to create a new reality on the ground.