How many alien civilizations are there ?

[Indiogene]

It would appear endless, but many astronomers and scientists place the number at 1 billion out of 100 billion trillion stars thought to be in our universe alone! (can't think of anything so vast and mysterious) The ratio of any civilization intelligent and advanced enough to reach another planet in a nearby star goes down to less than 100,000 ... and the chances of Earth visited by another species of extraterrestrials is less than one (some people believe they have arrived). The possibilities are there, and the only problem is where to detect the nearest alien civilization in any stage of scientific advancement, whether or not they are able to transport themselves to other solar systems filled with planets harboring life.

[quillius]

Yeap. I think you don't realize how far 1 LY is, not to mention 1000, or 10000 Lys.

actually I do, and what you say above actually strengthens my point which seems to have been missed by most (except 747).

Yes 1LY is such a great distance we will not do it in a single lifetime rendering the distance of 1LY impossible right? so what difference is 1000LY to 10000 LY...both impossible in a lifetime? is one more impossible than the other??

let me give one final analogy:

can I swim 1000 miles under water? is it less likely I can swim 10000 miles under water?

[quillius]

But 10000, then, would be more impossibly farther.

so something as definitive as 'impossible' you are suggesting has a range..i.e. 'more'??? impossible is impossible I thought...oh well...

[quillius]

Quite a bit, actually, I would think. First of all, there are a lot more stars within a 10000 LY range than within a 1000 LY range. Secondly, as you mention in another post is the actual travel. I don't know about that one. I think it depends on the technology whether 10000 LY is the same as 1000 LY. But another matter would be the chances of actually finding us.

Cheers,

Badeskov

I cant agree Badeskov, with regards to the first part which I assume is strictly pointing at the probability of 'other' life, granted that 10000 LY range will have considerably more 'opportnuity' for life than 1000 LY range, however when you look at how many stars this relates to I think the difference is negligable. Even so, if we accept this I thought it was the distance we were discussing rather than 'probability of life. And I still think the difference between 1000 v 10000 LY is irrelevant, hopefully my swimming analogy may make my point clearer.

[quillius]

Nah, mate, these distances are not "Blocks" they are light years. Difference between 100 light years and 200 light years? 9,461,000,000,000 km or 5,878,000,000,000 miles is the distance covered in one light year. That is even going to make quite an impact on FTL, and render most of space as unreachable. Some things will be achievable, some not, but we have to get the technology up and running first off.

Hey Psyche, this is more or less my point......do you see everything from say 100LY to 1000000LY as part of space that is unreachable? if so then there is no difference between the 100LY and the 1000000LY as both as unreachable....

[TheMacGuffin]

Since that would have to be accomplished world wide, yes it is. You didnt think that one through, I believe.

Every so often, there is a discussion on the Internet about SETI signals being jammed, and about the military's SETI project.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theparacast.com%2Fforum%2Fthreads%2Fseti-jamming.664%2F&ei=RjfGUI3qK4yu8QT9ooGoAw&usg=AFQjCNGhcSbpvNyhmGmOBPbMTUZMcAqBGA&sig2=1bLMVMPZx2MX9tG-t6F-ew&bvm=bv.1354675689,d.eWU

[itsnotoutthere]

That you know of, but I know about one.

Do tell....

[DONTEATUS]

Love the "Do Tell" Mac-G the balls are back in your court !

[psyche101]

Would it, though? Surely it'd be academic if one got in a spaceship to travel to a star 1000 light years away , or sent a message there hoping to get a reply, as to whether you sent one 10,000 l.y. From the point of view of anyone hoping to get a reply, it really wouldn't make any difference at all would it.

Sorry my mistake, you are talking communications, I thought you were referring to physical travel, where distance between say 5 light years and 500 could well mark what is possible and what is not.

Hey Psyche, this is more or less my point......do you see everything from say 100LY to 1000000LY as part of space that is unreachable? if so then there is no difference between the 100LY and the 1000000LY as both as unreachable....

Yep, I think I am onto it now, sorry for the confusion, carry on.

Edited December 11, 2012 by psyche101

[TheMacGuffin]

Do tell....

Haven't I told a great deal already?

[psyche101]

How many?

[Kludge808]

Unless 84001 is re-evaluated yet again with yet another conclusion. Maybe we can blame it for the ETH'ers LOL.

It's not the only one with assorted interesting "stuff" but it is one of the more unusual ones. Since I can't accept that we're alone in the universe, panspermia would also go far toward an environment where life can form on numerous planets which does fit my "vision" of the universe. There are other mechanisms but this seems the simplest.

How the heck ya been mate! Hows the health, and is that daughter still doing an excellent job of keeping you in line!

I've been doin' ... sorta kinda more or less. My health hasn't been all that great and I've been back to the ER a few more times. Ahhh, but Noelle ... she can still kick my overly abundant okole even from 3500 miles away. The day she can't is the day I'll be seriously worried. I did finally say the hell with my diet and bought a deep frier and a toaster oven to start making the food I like rather than pretending to follow the VA's dietician's suggestions. As long as my cholesterol and sodium are under control, which they have been for quite a while, I'll be happy.

[badeskov]

Pardon the late response, but I seem to have very little time these days.

Every so often, there is a discussion on the Internet about SETI signals being jammed, and about the military's SETI project.

http://www.google.co...354675689,d.eWU

And every so often (read: every time) the discussion is based on nonsense and initiated by people that does not know one iota about the subject. To accomplish such a feat and jam SETI the military would need some very impressive hardware and, in addition, they would make it blatantly obvious that that were doing it.

SETI uses antennas with high directivity, meaning that they are looking at a very narrow patch of the sky and anything outside of that is pretty much attenuated to the extent where it is in the noise floor. Since SETI is looking towards the sky, the military would have to place their jamming devices in the sky. And they should be broadband noise sources as SETI is scanning over a broad frequency range. But not only that, since SETI is also scanning the sky, said military installation would have to follow overhead as well, further complicating matters significantly. And said military would naturally have to do that across the globe in case somebody else had the audacity to listen in (and there are quite a few, very sensitive radio-telescopes out there).

And it would be known and countered. SETI is in the business of detecting signals and any signals coming from overhead are detected, categorized and analyzed.

Frankly, the notion is rather absurd.

Cheers,

Badeskov

Edited December 12, 2012 by badeskov

[psyche101]

Hey, it is 12:30 here, LUNCH

and the 12th of the 12th.

Did I miss the apocalypse? Anyone know how it went?

ETA Ahh no, 21st isn't it. Looks like I still have a few days

Edited December 12, 2012 by psyche101

[psyche101]

It's not the only one with assorted interesting "stuff" but it is one of the more unusual ones. Since I can't accept that we're alone in the universe, panspermia would also go far toward an environment where life can form on numerous planets which does fit my "vision" of the universe. There are other mechanisms but this seems the simplest.

I've been doin' ... sorta kinda more or less. My health hasn't been all that great and I've been back to the ER a few more times. Ahhh, but Noelle ... she can still kick my overly abundant okole even from 3500 miles away. The day she can't is the day I'll be seriously worried. I did finally say the hell with my diet and bought a deep frier and a toaster oven to start making the food I like rather than pretending to follow the VA's dietician's suggestions. As long as my cholesterol and sodium are under control, which they have been for quite a while, I'll be happy.

I gotta admit, panspermia is a very reasonable hypothesis, I wonder if any feel it is impossible?

[theSOURCE]

I gotta admit, panspermia is a very reasonable hypothesis, I wonder if any feel it is impossible?

Even if panspermia was discovered to be the answer of how life developed on other other planets, the important thing to consider would be environment. It may be possible that life could emerge and evolve due to panspermia on a planet where the it's atmosphere, gravity, exposure to certain types of radiation, etc, would be lethal to human life.

But that's not the problem I'm referring to. The real dilemma would be in the types of technology those civilizations would develop to communicate with each other. The forms of communication we use are based on our biology; hearing, sight, etc. But what of the lifeforms on other planets?

For example, say that an alien civilization does not rely on sound to communicate, but rather, movement or something similar to a sense of smell. What type of technology would that civilization develop to chat with each other across long distances?

My point is, how would we be able to detect, let alone decipher, something we don't have the foggiest notion even exists? It could be all around us at this very moment, yet we'd never know.

[psyche101]

Even if panspermia was discovered to be the answer of how life developed on other other planets, the important thing to consider would be environment. It may be possible that life could emerge and evolve due to panspermia on a planet where the it's atmosphere, gravity, exposure to certain types of radiation, etc, would be lethal to human life.

I agree, it could spark any type of life, and probably is not the only answer I would say, but another vehicle for that first spark.

But that's not the problem I'm referring to. The real dilemma would be in the types of technology those civilizations would develop to communicate with each other. The forms of communication we use are based on our biology; hearing, sight, etc. But what of the lifeforms on other planets?

For example, say that an alien civilization does not rely on sound to communicate, but rather, movement or something similar to a sense of smell. What type of technology would that civilization develop to chat with each other across long distances?

My point is, how would we be able to detect, let alone decipher, something we don't have the foggiest notion even exists? It could be all around us at this very moment, yet we'd never know.

Indeed, however, the abundance of rocky bodies discovered so far indicate that life "as we know it" is likely to be common. I also find the examples on convergeant evolution in our sample of one convincing enough to consider that convergeant evolution is not restricted to this planet. Thusly hypothesising that intelligent life is likely to take an anthropomorphic shape to achieve what we have, and seek similar goals, i.e. ET life in similar circumstances. Even if that is wrong, I would still maintain that we are unlikely to be the only anthropomorphic species in the Galaxy.

So, as with our space ventures, I would think our best option is to keep scanning for life "as we know it" Unless of course, some major breakthrough happens in the meantime and we find other forms of life, as an example, the idea of Plasma life froms at Hessdalen. If these other forms of life do exist, I would hope more space exploration might help us stumble upon it, or perhaps we might meet anther species who can help us understand forms of life we have not encountered. But as long as we keep scanning space, we have a chance to happen upon these anomalies that might lead to bigger and better things, such as background radiation, which was originally suspected to be the work of Pigeons nesting in the Big Ear.

I think it might be just like realising the earth revolves the sun, and not the other way round, as was first proposed, we need to get out there, roll our sleeves up, make a few mistakes along the way, challenge those mistakes, and correct them, but eventually, get where we want to be. Such is pretty much the meaning of modern science. As long as we learn from mistakes, I think we are still moving forward. We have no option but to throw our ticket in the hat if we want to progress I think and see what we come up with. But a calculated throw might pay off with a win, so we should apply what we do know to what we do not know

Any aliens that rely on a sense of smell, would need this

[theSOURCE]

Psyche, that was an interesting post and I will respond soon. Sorry, I need to compose my reply off line with the help of my friend to make sure I write what I want to say.

Hang in there, buddy. I'll get back to you.

[Kludge808]

I gotta admit, panspermia is a very reasonable hypothesis, I wonder if any feel it is impossible?

Probably but then there are those who believe Earth is the only life-bearing planet. Not just life as we know it but any form of life.

[TheMacGuffin]

Pardon the late response, but I seem to have very little time these days.

And every so often (read: every time) the discussion is based on nonsense and initiated by people that does not know one iota about the subject. To accomplish such a feat and jam SETI the military would need some very impressive hardware and, in addition, they would make it blatantly obvious that that were doing it.

Frankly, the notion is rather absurd.

I know all about that, and I suspect they are never going to hear anything more than once--and never again.

[Kludge808]

I agree, it could spark any type of life, and probably is not the only answer I would say, but another vehicle for that first spark.

No problem with that, brah. Of course, it also gives rise to such life forms as the babel fish plus - get this! - means we're related to them through a terribly long and convoluted family forest. OTOH, it also means we're related to Ming the Merciless which is kind of a downer.

Indeed, however, the abundance of rocky bodies discovered so far indicate that life "as we know it" is likely to be common. I also find the examples on convergent evolution in our sample of one convincing enough to consider that convergent evolution is not restricted to this planet.

Convergent evolution is a prerequisite to the supposed alien-human hybrids that some CTists love to talk about. I find this a possible explanation for things like politicians and Paris Hilton otherwise I'm not so sure. ;-) It's also part and parcel with science fiction - as in Spock being a human-Vulcan mix. I've even included it in some of my work although I had some genetic tinkering involved to make it work. OTOH, I can accept that it is possible for there to be alien-human hybrids. Probable not so much but nature doesn't always agree with what we consider "impossible."

So, as with our space ventures, I would think our best option is to keep scanning for life "as we know it" Unless of course, some major breakthrough happens in the meantime and we find other forms of life, as an example, the idea of Plasma life forms at Hessdalen.

When you look at life in general as a form of energy rather than the shell in which it resides, there are limitless possibilities. Some might argue that God et al are just such life forms, no shell but rather intelligent energy. This is another staple of science fiction which doesn't reduce the possibility of it being real.

I think it might be just like realising the earth revolves the sun, and not the other way round, as was first proposed, we need to get out there, roll our sleeves up, make a few mistakes along the way, challenge those mistakes, and correct them, but eventually, get where we want to be. Such is pretty much the meaning of modern science. As long as we learn from mistakes, I think we are still moving forward. We have no option but to throw our ticket in the hat if we want to progress I think and see what we come up with. But a calculated throw might pay off with a win, so we should apply what we do know to what we do not know

Let me answer that by quoting a well-known personality ... me: "We were once a nation who dared. Heck, we were a race who dared. We sent ships into the unknown. We explored. We discovered. Now we can't even cross the sidewalk without someone throwing a fit. Or a bullet. Or a fire bomb." --Michael Tauson, 29 Dec 1997

BTW, "race" means human race.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Kludge808

[bison]

Even if panspermia was discovered to be the answer of how life developed on other other planets, the important thing to consider would be environment. It may be possible that life could emerge and evolve due to panspermia on a planet where the it's atmosphere, gravity, exposure to certain types of radiation, etc, would be lethal to human life.

But that's not the problem I'm referring to. The real dilemma would be in the types of technology those civilizations would develop to communicate with each other. The forms of communication we use are based on our biology; hearing, sight, etc. But what of the lifeforms on other planets?

For example, say that an alien civilization does not rely on sound to communicate, but rather, movement or something similar to a sense of smell. What type of technology would that civilization develop to chat with each other across long distances?

My point is, how would we be able to detect, let alone decipher, something we don't have the foggiest notion even exists? It could be all around us at this very moment, yet we'd never know.

A long range communications system that uses radio waves could be adapted to beings without sight or hearing. The advantages of radio are so obvious that this would be an incentive to adapt them to any system of sensation.

We can't sense radio waves directly, but still manage to make extensive and intricate use of them. We convert radio waves into sounds, pictures, and data schemes. It should be possible to cause radio waves to trigger the emission of smells at the receiver, or some kind of mechanical movement. Indeed a radio loud speaker cone moves; creates pressure waves that could be sensed as motion, instead of being heard.

A being with the ability to directly sense electric and/or magnetic fields would be at a natural advantage in using radio waves for communication. Dr. Fred Hoyle described such a being in his novel, The Black Cloud. The existence of a magnetic or an electrical sense is not too farfetched. Various sea creatures can sense, and in some cases emit electric fields. Certain birds appear to navigate by sensing Earth's magnetic field, and orienting themselves to it.

[DONTEATUS]

Race means "Pedal to the Metal "

Been driving all night with my Hands on the Wheel !

[Kludge808]

Race means "Pedal to the Metal "

Been driving all night with my Hands on the Wheel !

Better there than several other possibilities. ;-)

[badeskov]

I know all about that, and I suspect they are never going to hear anything more than once--and never again.

OK. I am not sure what you are inferring to be honest. Unfortunately I agree, and I'd like it to be for the same reasons (that ET scans and only happens to "paint" Earth by accident), although it would be nice to have ET actually try and make contact. But honestly, I have serious doubts about that.

Cheers,

Badeskov