Aus Der Box Skeptisch Posted December 21, 2012 #326 Share Posted December 21, 2012 I've been saying in this thread that I dont blame the guns, I blame the culture around the guns. I've also said, though, that since you can't change the culture overnight, the only realistic approach with any short-term potential of success is to change the regulations around guns, and rather than the solution being to give guns to everyone, I believe the solution is to impose more strict control on the guns and make them more difficult to obtain/less prevalent in society. People do kill people, but that doesnt mean we should provide them with a means of doing it more easily. As for my comparison to the Congo, it is exactly that I don't work with extremes that I mention that. You were the one comparing the US to these extremes when you mentioned that the homicide rate was low. I was just pointing out that that's what you were doing... I do apologize if you thought I was trying to use that chart in the lowversus high only extreme. I usually knock off the ultra low and ultra high exceptions when I look at statistics but I never mentioned that and I understand why you came to that conclusion. I was simply saying that per capita murder/homicide rate is average irregardless of tool used. Also I should add I was involved in hunters safety as a youth and became one of the first youth instructors in Wisconsin back in 1995-1996. So I understand the benefit and mindset education has on proper gun respect and responsibility. As an aside check put this page from factcheck.org stellar. You may still not agree with where I'm coming from but at least this is a common trusted source used here on Um. http://qvga.factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsteroidX Posted December 21, 2012 #327 Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) Im going to be homeschooling my kid from here on out. If there not willing to have voluntary CWP in the schools my child is to attend for certain staff it is my responsibility as his parent to ensure he will always be safe. BTW all local schools were shut down because of threats of violence. Whether they intended too or it was crackpots noone knows. Found this excellent tool https://www.khanacademy.org/ Edited December 21, 2012 by AsteroidX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Red Devil Posted December 21, 2012 #328 Share Posted December 21, 2012 What I'm saying is that its not a guns fault. I'm looking for the rate of murders using another tool right now. Murder by knife rate in the UK versus the US. Why ... because I'm curious if the UK has a problem with knives. I think maybe a tool is a tool. No matter what deaths will occur. If a person wanted to mass murder without a gun they wouldin fact use a bomb. If their intentions were mass murder to begin with. Murder in general will occur with whatever is available. And the Congo comment.... come on can your mind only work with extremes? Maybe that's why you think guns are to blame instead of people. Why can no one figure out that people kill people. It is such an absurdity to blame a tool that just that alone leaves us at an impasse mainly because some arguing here can't see the forest through the trees. Yeah, you have a better murder by gun rate than Belize, Congo, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Honduras. And any slightly analytical mind will tell you that the vast majority of these are poor with smallish populations (the lower the population, the easier the percentage rises). People kill people? That's right, we're just trying to figure out why some people kill more people than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted December 21, 2012 #329 Share Posted December 21, 2012 I was simply saying that per capita murder/homicide rate is average irregardless of tool used. But thats the thing... its not average when compared to the rest of the western nations. So I understand the benefit and mindset education has on proper gun respect and responsibility. And thats the problem. I do not think proper gun respect and responsibility is part of the American gun culture. I also think that by making firearms more difficult to obtain, people will learn proper respect for guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aus Der Box Skeptisch Posted December 21, 2012 #330 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Yeah, you have a better murder by gun rate than Belize, Congo, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Honduras. And any slightly analytical mind will tell you that the vast majority of these are poor with smallish populations (the lower the population, the easier the percentage rises). People kill people? That's right, we're just trying to figure out why some people kill more people than others. Actually that chart was overall murder/homicide rate irregardless of tool used. But good effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aus Der Box Skeptisch Posted December 21, 2012 #331 Share Posted December 21, 2012 [/background][/size][/font][/color] But thats the thing... its not average when compared to the rest of the western nations. And thats the problem. I do not think proper gun respect and responsibility is part of the American gun culture. I also think that by making firearms more difficult to obtain, people will learn proper respect for guns. I agree a psychological evaluation could be instilled for better safety. But I know that familiarity with firearms and education would outweigh any benefit by restrictions on possession. Responsible firearm ownership is key. The culture of rural vs urban mindsets are quite different also due to the exposure of proper firearm usage and familiarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Red Devil Posted December 21, 2012 #332 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Actually that chart was overall murder/homicide rate irregardless of tool used. But good effort. Yeah and my second link in post 325 was purely by firearms and still proved my point. Back to the drawing board buddy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glorybebe Posted December 21, 2012 #333 Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) Yeah and my second link in post 325 was purely by firearms and still proved my point. Back to the drawing board buddy. Well, once the American people kill each other , the country will be up for grabs. Edited December 21, 2012 by glorybebe 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aus Der Box Skeptisch Posted December 21, 2012 #334 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Yeah and my second link in post 325 was purely by firearms and still proved my point. Back to the drawing board buddy. There is no drawing board. If I proved that murder by knife was more extreme in the UK would that suggest banning knives? Its not the tool. Its the person. Your using statistics that are weighted to try to push your view. I'm trying to use general statistics in order to show that murder is murder. And if you remove the extreme high rate and low rate countries which reading statistics often suggests you would see that we are low to average in the us in over all murder. Why because murder will happen no matter what tool is used. Am I pro gun... yes. Why is that? Because I'm some nut American who is gun crazed? No. I am a liberal realist that tries to look at all sides equally before coming to an opinion. Now I have some bias yes. Because I was brought up in rural Wisconsin where the mindset of firearm ownership differs from urban environments. I live very close to Phoenix AZ now and can see the mindset is different firsthand. Now Phoenix is different also as say San Francisco CA where guns are considered simply bad. Whereas Phoenix they are more used to private citizens carrying concealed due to new laws in this state. But the difference is minor over all because people in large cities do not have much in the way of familiarity. Big city folk only see a gun as a weapon. Most have never held a firearm. So they don't understand. How many of you who think guns are scary have ever used a firearm? Its OK if you haven't. But maybe that's why you see a firearm as only a weapon. I have hunted for food to feed my family. I have shot firearms at targets for fun and practice. I grew up in a home with firearms. I am also sane. I taught hunter safety and know many families who own firearms. I have a firearm for protection. Luckily I and most others who own a firearm for protection will NEVER use one. In rural areas where everyone is known to own a gun you never hear of home invasions with weapons. They may happen rarely but it is not common. Most home invasions happen in city/urban areas where the chances of the victim owning a gun are rare. OK I babbled a bit there and I apologize but this just shows that thus issue is not black and white. More variables need to be considered and while this recent incident is terrible heart wrenchingly terrible. There are more factors to be considered. That kid should only have been allowed around guns under strict supervision if at all. He had mental issues...committing worthy mental issues. The parent should never have allowed him access to these firearms. Educate and be responsible. That's all for now I guess. Next time ill try to keep it short and to point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Silver Thong Posted December 21, 2012 #335 Share Posted December 21, 2012 This was a random act not something every school in the nation needs to arm teachers for. This could have been at a mall a supermarket an amusement park wherever. To arm every school with guns is about as sane as the guy that did the shooting. More guns, who thinks this crap up when the US is already more dangerouse then going as a tourist to the m.e. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aus Der Box Skeptisch Posted December 21, 2012 #336 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Utah has allowed teachers to be armed. Where is the gun violence in schools? No one is acting improperly. No one has shot up a school there since they allowed firearms. Why is the stigma around a firearm so bad? Just because they seem scary to unfamiliar people who have no experiance handling a firearm let alone any education in using one? Because if that's the case. Please go out to a responsible range and find out for yourselves what the environment is truly like. Make an honest effort. Even if it scares you go out and familiarize yourself then come back and tell me how you feel about them then. I'm willing to bet the mood wont be as extreme towards them after that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Silver Thong Posted December 21, 2012 #337 Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) Utah has allowed teachers to be armed. Where is the gun violence in schools? No one is acting improperly. No one has shot up a school there since they allowed firearms. Why is the stigma around a firearm so bad? Just because they seem scary to unfamiliar people who have no experiance handling a firearm let alone any education in using one? Because if that's the case. Please go out to a responsible range and find out for yourselves what the environment is truly like. Make an honest effort. Even if it scares you go out and familiarize yourself then come back and tell me how you feel about them then. I'm willing to bet the mood wont be as extreme towards them after that. The issue around guns and some more than others are that they are made to kill people. I didn`t think that would be a hard one to figure out. Edited December 21, 2012 by The Silver Thong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aus Der Box Skeptisch Posted December 21, 2012 #338 Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) The issue around guns and some more than others are that they are made to kill people. I didn`t think that would be a hard one to figure out. Guns being made to kill people is equivalent to saying matches are made for arson. Its not a hard one to figure out. Guns can kill people and matches can start an arson fire. Do you see the difference? Your missing the main variable. People can kill people. Should I say people are only born to kill since most eat... even a vegetarian will kill plants. So why do we keep having babies when all they are is for killing? I know I went extreme on this one but it went with the post I was responding to . Edited December 21, 2012 by Aus Der Box Skeptisch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Render Posted December 21, 2012 #339 Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) Utah has allowed teachers to be armed. Where is the gun violence in schools? No one is acting improperly. No one has shot up a school there since they allowed firearms. Why is the stigma around a firearm so bad? Just because they seem scary to unfamiliar people who have no experiance handling a firearm let alone any education in using one? Because if that's the case. Please go out to a responsible range and find out for yourselves what the environment is truly like. Make an honest effort. Even if it scares you go out and familiarize yourself then come back and tell me how you feel about them then. I'm willing to bet the mood wont be as extreme towards them after that. I don't think it's about being against guns. It's about being against ppl who can't handle them. And i think it's been proven time and time again a lot of Americans can't handle their guns. Look at Switzerland. Soldiers, including the retired ones, can keep their guns at home. Switzerland is amongst the lowest in criminal ratings compared to Europe. (the highest in gun related suicides though) Some ppl can handle guns, many others simply can not. Efficient training obviously has a lot to do with it. Edited December 21, 2012 by Render 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aus Der Box Skeptisch Posted December 21, 2012 #340 Share Posted December 21, 2012 I don't think it's about being against guns. It's about being against ppl who can't handle them. And i think it's been proven time and time again a lot of Americans can't handle their guns. Thank you. And I agree its people. But I disagree its a lot. Is a tiny few. Except inner city gang violence these kind of things are rare. In fact a lot of people do know how to handle guns you will just never hear about them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Silver Thong Posted December 21, 2012 #341 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Guns being made to kill people is equivalent to saying matches are made for arson. Its not a hard one to figure out. Guns can kill people and matches can start an arson fire. Do you see the difference? Your missing the main variable. People can kill people. Should I say people are only born to kill since most eat... even a vegetarian will kill plants. So why do we keep having babies when all they are is for killing? I know I went extreme on this one but it went with the post I was responding to . And yet I have to point out assualt weapons ment to kill people are sold to average people when the weapon was desighned for military use to kill people. Starting a fire with a matche means what. People have fire alarmes not assaut weapon alarms. A rock can kill people but not hundreds in a matter of 7 min or seconds. Do you see the diiference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aus Der Box Skeptisch Posted December 21, 2012 #342 Share Posted December 21, 2012 I don't think it's about being against guns. It's about being against ppl who can't handle them. And i think it's been proven time and time again a lot of Americans can't handle their guns. Look at Switzerland. Soldiers, including the retired ones, can keep their guns at home. Switzerland is amongst the lowest in criminal ratings compared to Europe. (the highest in gun related suicides though) Some ppl can handle guns, many others simply can not. Efficient training obviously has a lot to do with it. Fully agree with your edit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aus Der Box Skeptisch Posted December 21, 2012 #343 Share Posted December 21, 2012 And yet I have to point out assualt weapons ment to kill people are sold to average people when the weapon was desighned for military use to kill people. Starting a fire with a matche means what. People have fire alarmes not assaut weapon alarms. A rock can kill people but not hundreds in a matter of 7 min or seconds. Do you see the diiference. I see your transferring blame to an inanimate object. A bomb can kill hundreds in seconds and they are banned also. I don't believe in transference. Its a lazy way of dealing with difficult issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Wearer of Hats Posted December 21, 2012 #344 Share Posted December 21, 2012 I don't think it's about being against guns. It's about being against ppl who can't handle them. And i think it's been proven time and time again a lot of Americans can't handle their guns. Look at Switzerland. Soldiers, including the retired ones, can keep their guns at home. Switzerland is amongst the lowest in criminal ratings compared to Europe. (the highest in gun related suicides though) Some ppl can handle guns, many others simply can not. Efficient training obviously has a lot to do with it. Which is why I reckon mandatory yearly competency checks must be a part of any gun control reform. Think of all the jobs such a plan would create! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acidhead Posted December 21, 2012 #345 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Arm the teachers?! WHAT!?! What's next?!.. arming the janitor? What happens to the security person's job? He doesn't even have a gun. His lively hood is in jeopardy! What happens to him? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsteroidX Posted December 21, 2012 #346 Share Posted December 21, 2012 people have been killed with plastic spoons in prisons. so whatever your point is it is moot. In general speak. To pick on guns without first going after other more devestating means of destruction is Hogwash. Its a means to control the populace and institute a police state. That is all. Anything can be a weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Silver Thong Posted December 21, 2012 #347 Share Posted December 21, 2012 I see your transferring blame to an inanimate object. A bomb can kill hundreds in seconds and they are banned also. I don't believe in transference. Its a lazy way of dealing with difficult issues. I see you transfering blame from lazy and irrisposible gun owners to those that don`t see a need for a tighter gun law hence more resposibility on the gun owner. If a true owner of weapons was all about the law and safty they would have no issue as we don`t here. I could go buy a gun tommorow but I refuse to, why because I don`t want that burden. If you live in a nation that thinks its so needed than do it. Glad I don`t need to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glorybebe Posted December 21, 2012 #348 Share Posted December 21, 2012 I see you transfering blame from lazy and irrisposible gun owners to those that don`t see a need for a tighter gun law hence more resposibility on the gun owner. If a true owner of weapons was all about the law and safty they would have no issue as we don`t here. I could go buy a gun tommorow but I refuse to, why because I don`t want that burden. If you live in a nation that thinks its so needed than do it. Glad I don`t need to. Amen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsteroidX Posted December 21, 2012 #349 Share Posted December 21, 2012 TBH I dont care about lazy and irresponsible gun owners. They will be the first to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Silver Thong Posted December 21, 2012 #350 Share Posted December 21, 2012 TBH I dont care about lazy and irresponsible gun owners. They will be the first to go. You should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now