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Thanato

Arm the Teachers?

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Wickian

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Why? Because it prevents crimes of opportunity. Similarly, stricter gun control/removing guns from the system will prevent crimes of opportunity. This whole talk of the black market for guns is nonsense.

Mainly because I don't live in my car and I really have no other deterrent besides the car alarm. All stricter gun laws will do is reduce the number of guns law abiding citizens have. It will have no impact on criminals. A handgun, which will always be legal to get, will be just as easy to rob a store or shoot someone with than a rifle.

I refuse to accept the idea of disarming the entire country "for our own good" as a viable argument. That's just trading one problem(criminals using them instead of knives or homemade bombs) for another(a population unable to defend itself from said criminals, home-invaders, rioters or even the government in a worse case scenario).

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A rather obscure Bassoon

Just watched a Texas Gun dealer being interviewed,and he says that not only Teachers but Nurses and Clergymen should be armed as well.He also stated that School Principles should have AR 15's in their offices.

I think he should go for physcological test,and maybe have some of his marbles topped up,he seem's to have lost a few..

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aztek

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Why? Because it prevents crimes of opportunity. Similarly, stricter gun control/removing guns from the system will prevent crimes of opportunity. This whole talk of the black market for guns is nonsense.

removing guns??? how do you see that happening? and what system?

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Black Red Devil

If you feel bad then express that or a if you have a previously not mentioned reality based solution then offer it but dont splat the same crap over and over. Just sayin.

yes. If I go onto another countries forum I tread lightly. Because it is there culture.

Blatant disrespect and aggitating a very important debate with horse manure makes your own part of the world look bad. And I would say the same thing to an American doing it as well. Its called being Human and having respect the many cultures of this world. If you fail on that the bad on you.

Since you know about respect and crap, I have to sincerely admit and confess to you, that the suggestion of arming teachers in schools must be close to the dumbest, warmongering obsessed solution ever suggested in human history that I've ever come across since man threw away their clubs and left the caves. All obviously IMO and with due respect from a non american UM poster.

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aztek

Since you know about respect and crap, I have to sincerely admit and confess to you, that the suggestion of arming teachers in schools must be close to the dumbest, warmongering obsessed solution ever suggested in human history that I've ever come across since man threw away their clubs and left the caves. All obviously IMO and with due respect from a non american UM poster.

i,m sure few hundred years ago idea of sending prisoners to far away island sounded just as smart.

however arming all teachers may be not the best idea, but armed guards in every school, might not be that bad. however if gvmt wil be in charge of that, we'll have another tsa.

Edited by aztek

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Stellar

And this is exactly where my locked car alarm analogy came in to play...

All stricter gun laws will do is reduce the number of guns law abiding citizens have. It will have no impact on criminals.

That's like saying that locking a car will have no impact on criminals.

Truth is --- it will. No one is claiming that it'll eliminate gun crime. What people are saying is that it will reduce it. Locking a car does not keep the car safe from someone determined to break into it, but it does prevent Joe Blow, who's not a criminal but sees a wallet lying on your seat, from breaking into it.

I refuse to accept the idea of disarming the entire country "for our own good" as a viable argument

Well, perhaps thats why the US has such a problem with guns?

And lets not blur gun control for disarmament. Theres quite a distinction.

a population unable to defend itself from said criminals

You'd be less likely to need to defend yourself from said criminals if there wasnt so many damn criminals with guns, no?

criminals using them instead of knives or homemade bombs

Lets me realistic here. Home made bombs are not likely to become any more of a threat if there was more strict gun control in place. The two types of weapons are completely unrelated. Those who use guns only because they have them readily available are unlikely to take the time to learn how to make a bomb and then actually make it. Those who actually want to use a bomb for something would do so regardless of whether they have a gun or not. A bomb is not a "replacement" for a gun, its a completely separate weapon.

As for knives, those are replacements for guns. But isnt that kind of what you want? A lot of people talk about making children safer and so on... well, a guy on a rampage with a knife is a lot less likely to kill mass amounts of people when compared to a guy on a rampage with a gun. Hell, it may even deter some people from committing crime!

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Stellar

removing guns??? how do you see that happening? and what system?

System is the word I used to represent just the area/country/whatever scale you want to apply it to. I'm not really talking about removing all guns in the sense of banning them (although that is a logical extension of my point as well --- as in, it would work as well), but rather imposing stricter control over guns so that they are not as readily available by anyone and everyone.

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Stellar

What the hell are you talking about?

I'm talking about the sick obsession Americans seem to have with guns and violence. Ironically, the only people that ever seem to deny this obsession are Americans.

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aztek

I'm not really talking about removing all guns in the sense of banning them (although that is a logical extension of my point as well --- as in, it would work as well), but rather imposing stricter control over guns so that they are not as readily available by anyone and everyone.

are you gonna go house to house and check how they store guns?? than you will do surprise checks once in a while to enforce new laws, (and you must inforce, or they will be as useless as ones now), cuz you know once you left and saw guns locked in a safe, they might just open it and give loaded guns to all their kids.

i'll let u in on a little secret, all responcible gun owners, don't need your laws to keep their guns safe, or you would see a lot more shootings. they do it without your help. everyday, and those that do not, will continue, and you can't do a thing about it.

and once your mesures fail, (and they will, they did before, everytime) you will say, it was not enough, and from stricter "control" mesures, you will be for total ban, and confiscation.

and that isn't ok with many ppl.

Edited by aztek

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Drayno

Again, to the people who think arming teachers is idiotic. Or warmongering. Read history.

"It is more a subject of joy [than of regret] that we have so few of the desperate characters which compose modern regular armies. But it proves more forcibly the necessity of obliging every citizen to be a soldier; this was the case with the Greeks and Romans and must be that of every free State. Where there is no oppression there can be no pauper hirelings." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1813.

We're all supposed to be armed because armed people deter violence.

Like this story for example... Watch the video.

Edited by Eonwe

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Stellar

are you gonna go house to house and check how they store guns?? than you will do surprise checks once in a while to enforce new laws, (and you must inforce, or they will be as useless as ones now), cuz you know once you left and saw guns locked in a safe, they might just open it and give loaded guns to all their kids.

i'll let u in on a little secret, all responcible gun owners, don't need your laws to keep their guns safe, or you would see a lot more shootings. they do it without your help. everyday, and those that do not, will continue, and you can't do a thing about it.

and once your mesures fail, (and they will, they did before, everytime) you will say, it was not enough, and from stricter "control" mesures, you will be for total ban, and confiscation.

and that isn't ok with many ppl.

:rolleyes: Look, you act as if no other country has stricter gun control than the US. Fact is, there are plenty of other countries who are more strict on gun control and guess what? They manage to make it work. And to top that off, there are far less shooting incidents than in the US.

all responcible gun owners, don't need your laws to keep their guns safe, or you would see a lot more shootings.

A lot more shootings? I'm already seeing a lot more shootings coming out of the US than other countries...

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Yamato

I'm all for tougher gun control laws!

For my government! Do I really need to explain why? A good 25% of my posting history here can do that.

No, if I can't establish some control over what my government does with ITS GUNS (and do we need an inventory of those?) then there's no way in green hell I'm going to let the government be the steward to tell me what to do with mine. That's what's ridiculous here. Even arming teachers sounds reasonable by comparison. And I'm no fan of that either.

Selling guns to criminals, mass-murdering women and children in the name of getting "terrorist suspects", making a mockery of the clearest language of the Constitution - Congress's authority to declare war, the federal government is the last gang of thuggish goonberries I'm going to turn to, to keep children safe in any school. Doing that is first and foremost a matter of school policy. Schools should be able to make their environments as safe as possible and parents should have as much freedom as possible to decide which school is best for their kid(s) and have the choice to attend school there. Beyond that, it's a health issue. Yes the brain is an organ and just like cancer or heart disease, sometimes the brain get sick too. If we as a society could use our well brains to figure out more comprehensive reactions to tragedies like these that go beyond holding metal objects in our hands we'd go much further to actually solve the problem and not squabble about a thousand more gun laws that won't do diddly squat to keep us safe from murder.

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Black Red Devil

i,m sure few hundred years ago idea of sending prisoners to far away island sounded just as smart.

however arming all teachers may be not the best idea, but armed guards in every school, might not be that bad. however if gvmt wil be in charge of that, we'll have another tsa.

It probably was considering now their great, great, great...gran kids are now having to pay thousands of dollars to visit these far away islands and their paradise beaches.

Anyway, back OT, the idea of having anyone with a pistol roaming around a school shouldn't even be considered IMO. The whole idea of having weapons around school kids or even showing these small kids you need a gun to protect yourself is wrong. It sends them the wrong message. It portrays a society where people are xenophobic and living in constant fear, where the law of the gun rules and if you're ruthless enough to use it you show your toughness, I'm amazed people can't see this.

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Stellar

I'm all for tougher gun control laws!

For my government! Do I really need to explain why? A good 25% of my posting history here can do that.

No, if I can't establish some control over what my government does with ITS GUNS (and do we need an inventory of those?) then there's no way in green hell I'm going to let the government be the steward to tell me what to do with mine. That's what's ridiculous here. Even arming teachers sounds reasonable by comparison. And I'm no fan of that either.

Selling guns to criminals, mass-murdering women and children in the name of getting "terrorist suspects", making a mockery of the clearest language of the Constitution - Congress's authority to declare war, the federal government is the last gang of thuggish goonberries I'm going to turn to, to keep children safe in any school. Doing that is first and foremost a matter of school policy. Schools should be able to make their environments as safe as possible and parents should have as much freedom as possible to decide which school is best for their kid(s) and have the choice to attend school there. Beyond that, it's a health issue. Yes the brain is an organ and just like cancer or heart disease, sometimes the brain get sick too. If we as a society could use our well brains to figure out more comprehensive reactions to tragedies like these that go beyond holding metal objects in our hands we'd go much further to actually solve the problem and not squabble about a thousand more gun laws that won't do diddly squat to keep us safe from murder.

Must we turn every thread into "Yamato vs. The Establishment"?

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aztek

:rolleyes: Look, you act as if no other country has stricter gun control than the US. Fact is, there are plenty of other countries who are more strict on gun control and guess what? They manage to make it work. And to top that off, there are far less shooting incidents than in the US.

..

1 other countries are NOT us.

2 plenty of countries you talking about, never had major crime rate, and after disarming, their little rate went up.

in related news, a town in ga made it mandatory to keep at least 1 gun in the house, next year burglarys dropped 87% or so, i posted links before

I The whole idea of having weapons around school kids or even showing these small kids you need a gun to protect yourself is wrong. It sends them the wrong message.

are you serious? lol it sends realistic message, there are lunatics out there, it isn't fairy tale behind those doors, but real world, world they live in, not some island thousands miles away.

de nile ain't just a river in Egypt.

Edited by aztek

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Aus Der Box Skeptisch

Stop transferring blame from the person who is at fault. And for gods sake look at over all homicide / murder rates per capita by country. Not just by guns... overall. America is still pretty low on the list per capita. People just like to be scared and have something to blame without blaming people. When is it the persons fault?

Edited by Aus Der Box Skeptisch
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Stellar

1 other countries are NOT us.

Clearly. Thats what I've been pointing out all thread long. The US has a different gun culture and gun laws than other countries. I usually followed that point by pointing out that maybe, if the USs gun culture and laws were more alike to all these other countries, you'd have similar rates of gun-crime as well..

2 plenty of countries you talking about, never had major crime rate, and after disarming, their little rate went up.

Yeah... right... well, tell you what, when you bring your gun crime rate down to the level of the rest of the western world, then you may have a point.

You're the only country in the west with such a huge problem with gun-related deaths, yet you act as if everyone from other western countries are idiots for telling you what works.

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Aus Der Box Skeptisch

http://chartsbin.com/view/1454

Per capita per country homicide/murder rate

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Stellar

http://chartsbin.com/view/1454

Per capita per country homicide/murder rate

Yes, if you compare the US to Africa then yes, they have a "low" homicide rate. Lets compare it to western countries. The US by far leads them with homicide rate.

If your argument is that everything is fine because the US has less homicide than the Congo, then I believe we're at an impass...

Edited by Stellar
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Aus Der Box Skeptisch

http://www.neontommy.com/news/2012/07/doing-math-guns

This was posted after the Aurora shooting. But its till valid to this conversation.

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Aus Der Box Skeptisch

What I'm saying is that its not a guns fault. I'm looking for the rate of murders using another tool right now. Murder by knife rate in the UK versus the US. Why ... because I'm curious if the UK has a problem with knives. I think maybe a tool is a tool. No matter what deaths will occur. If a person wanted to mass murder without a gun they wouldin fact use a bomb. If their intentions were mass murder to begin with. Murder in general will occur with whatever is available. And the Congo comment.... come on can your mind only work with extremes? Maybe that's why you think guns are to blame instead of people. Why can no one figure out that people kill people. It is such an absurdity to blame a tool that just that alone leaves us at an impasse mainly because some arguing here can't see the forest through the trees.

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Aus Der Box Skeptisch

Commentary on a Harvard study about gun regulation vs murder suicide rate.

http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/

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Stellar

What I'm saying is that its not a guns fault. I'm looking for the rate of murders using another tool right now. Murder by knife rate in the UK versus the US. Why ... because I'm curious if the UK has a problem with knives. I think maybe a tool is a tool. No matter what deaths will occur. If a person wanted to mass murder without a gun they wouldin fact use a bomb. If their intentions were mass murder to begin with. Murder in general will occur with whatever is available. And the Congo comment.... come on can your mind only work with extremes? Maybe that's why you think guns are to blame instead of people. Why can no one figure out that people kill people. It is such an absurdity to blame a tool that just that alone leaves us at an impasse mainly because some arguing here can't see the forest through the trees.

I've been saying in this thread that I dont blame the guns, I blame the culture around the guns. I've also said, though, that since you can't change the culture overnight, the only realistic approach with any short-term potential of success is to change the regulations around guns, and rather than the solution being to give guns to everyone, I believe the solution is to impose more strict control on the guns and make them more difficult to obtain/less prevalent in society.

People do kill people, but that doesnt mean we should provide them with a means of doing it more easily.

As for my comparison to the Congo, it is exactly that I don't work with extremes that I mention that. You were the one comparing the US to these extremes when you mentioned that the homicide rate was low. I was just pointing out that that's what you were doing...

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Sir Wearer of Hats

Again, to the people who think arming teachers is idiotic. Or warmongering. Read history.

"It is more a subject of joy [than of regret] that we have so few of the desperate characters which compose modern regular armies. But it proves more forcibly the necessity of obliging every citizen to be a soldier; this was the case with the Greeks and Romans and must be that of every free State. Where there is no oppression there can be no pauper hirelings." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1813.

We're all supposed to be armed because armed people deter violence.

that's not what Jefferson actually said.

Jefferson was talking about conscription, a nationalised army and how a free nation is defended by the people within that free nation.

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Black Red Devil

1 other countries are NOT us.

2 planty of countries you talking about, never had major crime rate, and after disarming, their little rate went up.

in related news, a town in ga made it mandatory to keep at least 1 gun in the house, next year burglarys dropped 87% or so, i posted links before

are you serious? lol it sends realistic message, there are lunatics out there, it isn't fairy tale behind those doors, but real world, world they live in, not some island thousands miles away.

de nile ain't just a river in egypt.

Ok. You say potato, I say potatoe. Well, you don't have to hear it from me, the NY Times says:

Experts from the Harvard School of Public Health, using data from 26 developed countries, have shown that wherever there are more firearms, there are more homicides. In the case of the United States, exponentially more: the American murder rate is roughly 15 times that of other wealthy countries, which have much tougher laws controlling private ownership of guns.

and

Australia is an excellent example. In 1996, a “pathetic social misfit,” as a judge described the lone gunman, killed 35 people with a spray of bullets from semiautomatic weapons. Within weeks, the Australian government was working on gun reform laws that banned assault weapons and shotguns, tightened licensing and financed gun amnesty and buyback programs.

At the time, the prime minister, John Howard, said, “We do not want the American disease imported into Australia.” The laws have worked. The American Journal of Law and Economics reported in 2010 that firearm homicides in Australia dropped 59 percent between 1995 and 2006. In the 18 years before the 1996 laws, there were 13 gun massacres resulting in 102 deaths, according to Harvard researchers, with none in that category since.

Similarly, after 16 children and their teacher were killed by a gunman in Dunblane, Scotland, in 1996, the British government banned all private ownership of automatic weapons and virtually all handguns. Those changes gave Britain some of the toughest gun control laws in the developed world on top of already strict rules. Hours of exhaustive paperwork are required if anyone wants to own even a shotgun or rifle for hunting. The result has been a decline in murders involving firearms.

In Japan, which has very strict laws, only 11 people were killed with guns in 2008, compared with 12,000 deaths by firearms that year in the United States — a huge disparity even accounting for the difference in population.

while ratcheting up his national antigun campaign, “We are the only industrialized country that has this problem. In the whole world, the only one.”

Americans do not have to settle for that.

Link

The US has a homicide rate by firearm close to 4% people per 100,000. Other countries with strict gun such as Sweden, Germany, Greece have a percentage of 0. something by 100,000.

See Homicide by Firearm Rate per 100,000 pop column.

Link

Lol, you want to keep on playing with your toys, so be it. But don't try to argue facts by being in denial. You and your argument loose all sorts of credibility.

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