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Thanato

Arm the Teachers?

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The Silver Thong

my entire post your commenting to less the last sentence was blatant sarcasm dontcha know ... eh?

Ya I got your sarcasim but im one of those guys that cry easy and seeing what happened last friday makes me made as hell. No I have no guns because if I did I would break into a house of nut jobs with guns and kill them all. Ya sarcasim ;)

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Aus Der Box Skeptisch

Ya I got your sarcasim but im one of those guys that cry easy and seeing what happened last friday makes me made as hell. No I have no guns because if I did I would break into a house of nut jobs with guns and kill them all. Ya sarcasim ;)

Hell you could almost be American with thar last comment....

Alright I'm done for the night. All I got is bad humor right now. Seriously though if you ever interest yourself in a firearm... please be careful and responsible. I recommend educating yourself be it hunters safety or a firearms class. Take the time to visit a range and realize its an inanimate object that only you control. Other than that northern brother have a great night.

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AsteroidX

Mad as hell is fine. I cant name a single that isnt abhorred by what happened last Friday. But there is a difference between angry, mourning and rationale talk about solutions. Theres a process. You cant avoid that process. So Im going to be of the iopinion you are still in a raging state. lets talk when your ready to mourn and well start to have a more productive exchange I feel.

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The Silver Thong

Hell you could almost be American with thar last comment....

Alright I'm done for the night. All I got is bad humor right now. Seriously though if you ever interest yourself in a firearm... please be careful and responsible. I recommend educating yourself be it hunters safety or a firearms class. Take the time to visit a range and realize its an inanimate object that only you control. Other than that northern brother have a great night.

I have shot weapons before, hand rifle and shot gun. No formal training though just for fun. I love shooting guns however I am not just allowed to own them due to some law as other laws restrict that. don`t try and humor yourself as americans with the 2 admendment some how are born to use guns the right way is just inbreed instinct ;)

I have shot most and had a blast doing so in Montana pardon the pun.

night my friend and thanks for the banter ;)

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The Silver Thong

Mad as hell is fine. I cant name a single that isnt abhorred by what happened last Friday. But there is a difference between angry, mourning and rationale talk about solutions. Theres a process. You cant avoid that process. So Im going to be of the iopinion you are still in a raging state. lets talk when your ready to mourn and well start to have a more productive exchange I feel.

I`m waiting for america to mourn as now it seems guns are the top priority.

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AsteroidX

First sensible thing Ive heard you say.

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Stellar

A bomb can kill hundreds in seconds and they are banned also.

I don't believe in transference. Its a lazy way of dealing with difficult issues.

Out of curiosity... would you legalize the right to make and own bombs and grenades? Why or why not?

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aztek

Out of curiosity... would you legalize the right to make and own bombs and grenades? Why or why not?

it is legal, btw, so is the right to manufacture a gun, all you need is proper permit.

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Stellar

it is legal, btw, so is the right to manufacture a gun, all you need is proper permit.

Americans can own bombs?

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aztek

Americans can own bombs?

sure with proper permits you can, they are called destructive devices, just like dynamite, plastic explosives for demolition work, they are heavily regulated by atf, but not banned outright.

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Corp

Again, to the people who think arming teachers is idiotic. Or warmongering. Read history.

"It is more a subject of joy [than of regret] that we have so few of the desperate characters which compose modern regular armies. But it proves more forcibly the necessity of obliging every citizen to be a soldier; this was the case with the Greeks and Romans and must be that of every free State. Where there is no oppression there can be no pauper hirelings." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1813.

We're all supposed to be armed because armed people deter violence.

As it's been pointed out that wasn't what Jefferson was saying. And the quote is rather amusing given that at the time America was losing a war they should have easily won because they didn't have a regular army. :P

Utah has allowed teachers to be armed. Where is the gun violence in schools? No one is acting improperly. No one has shot up a school there since they allowed firearms. Why is the stigma around a firearm so bad? Just because they seem scary to unfamiliar people who have no experiance handling a firearm let alone any education in using one? Because if that's the case. Please go out to a responsible range and find out for yourselves what the environment is truly like. Make an honest effort. Even if it scares you go out and familiarize yourself then come back and tell me how you feel about them then. I'm willing to bet the mood wont be as extreme towards them after that.

Well the flip of that is why the stigma on having a gun? That's what tends to confuse non-Americans in these types of debates. When the question comes regarding gun reform most people might object to it but they tend to be reasonable about it and not be that upset if the reform goes through. Then you have some Americans who seem to view any kind of gun reform as being on par with baby eating. That's were the odd looks are coming from. Actually some Americans tend to have the same view when it comes to taxes. That Revolution of yours really made you an odd lot. :P

And I've fired off guns before, been given safety tips from the friend who owns them, and I don't really mind them. Still think arming all teachers is a massively stupid idea though.

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Dredimus

I don’t see a problem with this on a voluntary basis. In my opinion, using a soldier of the US Army as a guideline as to why we couldn’t arm teachers (voluntary basis only) is rubbish. If a training program was setup locally for the volunteer teachers to go to and learn the ins and outs and dos and don'ts they would probably come out with more training under them than your basic soldier. Army Soldiers are initially given their firearms training in Phase 2 of basic training and in all honesty this only covers the basics of marksmanship - Three firing positions and weapon familiarization. Beyond that the first week of phase two is dedicated to zeroing, grouping and qualifying. I can honestly say that during my BCT my company was only down range a total of 4 times.

Now, that being said, if you were to offer training to these volunteer teachers that incorporated several different aspects over a course of 6-10 days... I think those teachers would be well equipped to conceal carry on school grounds. I put a lot of thought into this issue last night and this morning... and speaking as someone who has trained those in the use of firearms I think you would have to utilize a set schedule with emphasis on a few major factors such as:

Survival Mindset- This can be engrained into a trainee rather quickly believe it or not. Using a setup such as a MOUT course that is timed with real time targets - nothing brings home the seriousness of a situation like a live fire exorcise.

Moving While Shooting/Then Shooting - as most will tell you, if you are standing still in a fire fight, you aren’t doing it right. Time would need to be taken on the range to show these volunteer teachers how to move and when to move as well as how to sight in a moving target, both laterally and oncoming. I guess this training would have to be brought back to a MOUT like course as well. So many things could be gathered from this event that it’s not even funny... everything from firing tactics to body placement, sighting... it also helps to gauge the stress one may feel in a given situation, though I know the stress of an urban operations course is nowhere near the stress of a true fire event, it still helps to see the mindset of someone and what they will or will not be capable of in a real event.

I also believe the weapons should be concealed, not worn on the hip. Leave it in a drawer or under your jacket or on your ankle. It’s not something the kids should be seeing every time they are in class.

Anyway, those were just a few of the ideas I had rolling around in my head… The proper training for those that volunteer to concealed carry as teachers, along with a slight pay increase would not offend me in the least as long as it meant our children are better protected…

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Walter White

The NRA have called for armed guards at schools.

Head of NRA Wayne LaPierre said, "The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/21/nra-newtown-armed-guards-schools

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Yamato

Must we turn every thread into "Yamato vs. The Establishment"?

You mean can I ever just kick the retarded cousin with the rest of you instead of flailing away at a hopeless case I have no chance of winning against?

No, probably not. :(

The reason the US can't have the Catholic-strict gun laws you for some reason desire is because it flies in the face of the way its government acts out on the rest of the world. Forbidding guns of its citizens would be rotgut hypocrisy from the state who spends more money on military than the rest of the world combined. Hypocrisy and force control that doesn't do anything to curb murder isn't a good idea; it's a terrible idea. Besides the rule of law doesn't allow it. Want to change the rule of law? Then Amend the Constitution. But don't pretend for a moment that you can forsake or run over the rule of law without contending with it first.

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aztek

The NRA have called for armed guards at schools.

Head of NRA Wayne LaPierre said, "The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."

http://www.guardian....-guards-schools

can't say i disagree, i just hope we wont have another tsa.

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Stellar

sure with proper permits you can, they are called destructive devices, just like dynamite, plastic explosives for demolition work, they are heavily regulated by atf, but not banned outright.

K, I'm clearly not talking about destructive devices used commercially. I'm talking about personally owned bombs.

The reason the US can't have the Catholic-strict gun laws you for some reason desire is because it flies in the face of the way its government acts out on the rest of the world. Forbidding guns of its citizens would be rotgut hypocrisy from the state who spends more money on military than the rest of the world combined.

I'm not really concerned in this thread with whether it's hypocritical or not. We're discussing whether it would work. Something hypocritical can still work.

Hypocrisy and force control that doesn't do anything to curb murder isn't a good idea; it's a terrible idea.

Thats what we're debating here, whether it would curb murder not. Talk about it being hypocritical is completely off topic and has no relevance.

Besides the rule of law doesn't allow it. Want to change the rule of law? Then Amend the Constitution. But don't pretend for a moment that you can forsake or run over the rule of law without contending with it first.

First of all, constitutional amendments are in fact possible. No one is advocating breaking the law, we're all conceding that the law can be changed and would have to be changed. Second of all, I know of no place in your constitution that says that gun control is illegal, unless you are proposing that the "right" to bear arms is an unalienable human right --- at which point, you would also have to concede to the fact that if that were true, every Tom, Dick and Jane with or without a criminal record as well as with or without the proper training can own a gun. Afterall, human rights are something that you can't just take away because someone is a criminal...

So, if you agree that there are certain people that should not be allowed to own guns, then you are already enforcing some type of gun "control", and conceding that gun control does not violate your constitution.

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aztek

K, I'm clearly not talking about destructive devices used commercially. I'm talking about personally owned bombs.

lol, you mean those 5000lb ones that dropped from planes??? if so, than you win, i have not seen a civilian owning those, i also did not see civilian owning modern jet capable of carrying those bombs.

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Stellar

lol, you mean those 5000lb ones that dropped from planes??? if so, than you win, i have not seen a civilian owning those, i also did not see civilian owning modern jet capable of carrying those bombs.

:rolleyes: Yes. Clearly the only bombs Id be referring to are 5000lbs bombs dropped from planes. Are you deliberately being dense just to provoke an argument? Perhaps this is why no one wants to discuss anything with you.

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AsteroidX

If you follow the dialogue of the 2nd Amendment thats exactly what it says.

you would also have to concede to the fact that if that were true, every Tom, Dick and Jane with or without a criminal record as well as with or without the proper training can own a gun. Afterall, human rights are something that you can't just take away because someone is a criminal...

Currently this where out 4th Amendment stands ( a bit off topic)

Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Then we get this:

http://ingunowners.com/forums/general_political_discussion/253013-two_women_cavity_searched_by_texas_police_after_being_pulled_over_for_littering.html

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Stellar

If you follow the dialogue of the 2nd Amendment thats exactly what it says.

Can you show me where? I am not aware of this.

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Yamato

K, I'm clearly not talking about destructive devices used commercially. I'm talking about personally owned bombs.

I'm not really concerned in this thread with whether it's hypocritical or not. We're discussing whether it would work. Something hypocritical can still work.

Thats what we're debating here, whether it would curb murder not. Talk about it being hypocritical is completely off topic and has no relevance.

First of all, constitutional amendments are in fact possible. No one is advocating breaking the law, we're all conceding that the law can be changed and would have to be changed. Second of all, I know of no place in your constitution that says that gun control is illegal, unless you are proposing that the "right" to bear arms is an unalienable human right --- at which point, you would also have to concede to the fact that if that were true, every Tom, Dick and Jane with or without a criminal record as well as with or without the proper training can own a gun. Afterall, human rights are something that you can't just take away because someone is a criminal...

So, if you agree that there are certain people that should not be allowed to own guns, then you are already enforcing some type of gun "control", and conceding that gun control does not violate your constitution.

Amendments are indeed possible and it behooves you to fight for one if gun control is such a big deal. I wasn't aware anyone was saying gun control is illegal and I'm certainly not. I just want some gun control for the biggest gun runners on Earth, the US government. Gun control laws are everywhere in the US. Thousands of laws on the books. That's not what we're arguing here.

Comparing murder rates between Europe and the US, it's obvious that adopting their gun control laws will not curb murder and may make it a lot worse. If that's what you're still arguing, I'm already moved on past that after I saw and posted the data.

I think all this romble romble and noise about guns is due to some politically charged people who get themselves wrapped up in the false stereotype of the typical gun owner that you read about on some liberal rag and it stirs up your juices and you have to get angry and vent on a message board about it.

Stricter gun laws don't make us any safer, they only make us safer from guns. It's a fact that weighs out in the data, and all of these endless rhetorical detours around that fact isn't going to change it.

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Yamato

"Sometimes hypocritical can still work."

LOL You should run for office Stellar. You'll fit right in.

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AsteroidX

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

I could stop there as it is all inclusive but that's not what I claimed or direct to your comment....so

http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndfqu.html

enjoy the rhetoric of our founding fathers they were brilliant men that saw far ahead the problems consumerism based society might cause may cause.

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Yamato

"The unlimited power of the sword will ever lie with the people." I like that! But now some left-wing liberal will try to tell me that the government is the people, and some right-wing conservative will try to tell me that corporations are people. These statists who think that institutionalization, whether the bureaucracy or the corporatocracy, somehow confers righteousness upon their opinions; I feel sorry for them all.

Perhaps people who so fervently believe that the government is the vehicle to make the world a better place have no ideas of their own and take no initiative by using their own freedom to put their own ideas to work. Hobgoblins of mediocrity, they dwell in their cookie-cutter existences and quite insist that everyone else do the same.

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AsteroidX

So in effect by making a corporation a person then corporations can be a militia. Therefore corporations can employ persons to be there militia and use there guns in defense of the person (corporation) The Giant Loophole of Backdoor ****dom.

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