Spreckel Mansion Death/Suicide

[Vincennes]

Yes, Spark, and that's kind of the way it has been left. There is another investigator Oijua who has not joined back in our recent talks. I do appreciate your input that this is a strange case...at best. Hopefully, Regi, will take this up again and join at some point. I didn't even answer her last text regarding the search warrants...and there were, again, mysteries there. Both Regi and I had read an discussed the dates/times reported regarding Jonah's whereabouts and I think we both read them pretty correctly because we both related to the same times - However, after Regi pointed me to the last the search warrants, I found the times were reported for two different day and they were confused . Now, who knows which reports were right? Either way, I believe there is time unaccounted for on the part of Jonah, the father.

I would love it if you feel like investigating. It's all there......Are all most all.... Regi has a lot of the facts. I am the suspicious one....

[Regi]

Hopefully, Regi, will take this up again and join at some point.

Both Regi and I had read an discussed the dates/times reported regarding Jonah's whereabouts and I think we both read them pretty correctly because we both related to the same times - However, after Regi pointed me to the last the search warrants, I found the times were reported for two different day and they were confused . Now, who knows which reports were right? Either way, I believe there is time unaccounted for on the part of Jonah, the father.

I don't know which report you're referring to that differs from another re: dates/times, but the following are two warrants obtained so as to verify (Jonah's and Nina's) whereabouts.

One was to obtain cell records for Jonah and Dina, and the other was to obtain camera recordings from Rady Children's Hospital. (The hospital and the Ronald MacDonald House appear to be combined facilities.)

Cell warrant:

http://ftpcontent.wo...rant_11-164.pdf

Camera Recordings:

http://ftpcontent.wo...rrant_41432.pdf

Edited July 6, 2013 by regi

[Regi]

I am the suspicious one....

Ha! You're too funny! I'd say you're "not satisfied".

[Vincennes]

Regi, glad to see you back here! Thanks for the links. I searched for "Speckel Search Warrants" but that took me to "Results of Search Warrants" released. Here's one of the reports on that: http://www.cbs8.com/story/15505829/some-shacknai-search-warrants-to-be-unsealed

So as usual I wasn't even at the right place but those reports also included, "new information released." That was what I was referring to, sorry for being misleading. However, in that new information, I realized there were two days Jonah's whereabouts were detailed as to time away from the hospital. I don't know why the details of the day before R's death were an issue but in our earlier posts I think both of us were going from initial reports and the reporting of those dates and times was confused. We were discussing food from dinner in the stomach and since both of us recognized the dates and times we were each talking about, I think the initial reporting was off. It was the day before the death that he couldn't get a room at Ronald Mc House and went to another hotel. The day of the death he did, as you posted, go to R McD and had a room. It was the day prior to the murder that he left hospital for dinner and returned at 1:55 am. The day of the murder he was gone from I think 6:00 p to 10:00 p. That's why the departure and returned matched in military time. It was a combination of two different days. The fact we were really discussing that mess of mixed up time periods means to me we had both read it that way in the initial reports.

Bottom line to me is this exemplifies , all we have to go on is what has been reported and some of those reports in this case have been wrong. Back in the beginning, when I read the police report detailing how each of the rooms was observed, the report seemed to me to be really, really poorly done. He talked about being in the guest house bedroom and then it seemed to jump to the main house without putting that he had moved on in the report.

So, with a big sigh I really give up! Perhaps later something more will come out.

[Regi]

Regi, glad to see you back here!

Perhaps later something more will come out.

Well, you already know that I personally don't believe it will re: Zahau's death, but I'm not so sure re: Max's.

I think I have the same basic issue with that case as you do with Zahau's; I can't accept that his death occurred as they said it did.

I just can't see that happening.

[Vincennes]

Nor can I and thanks for just opening up to this discussion again. You have so many facts. Me, I'm like...(as you know) here is what I think because I feel its right.

1. I have a problem with the kid going over the railing.

a. Kid was not that tall even on a scooter to have gained the height and velocity to, not only go over the stairs, but intersect with the chandelier.

b. Average railings are over 36" tall. Kid was only 42".

c. All indications are that R loved Max.

A game of piggy-back (which my kids loved) would account for both added height and velocity.

2. I have a problem with R hanging herself nude during her period which she would know would create a total spectacle.

a. R seems to have been a pretty descent girl, no where is there a hint of her being an exhibitionist in any way.

3. I have a problem with the amount of evidence declared by the police department. One of R's footprints was found ??? No, doesn't work. Anyone that would hang themselves

is going to take at least a few steps to prepare.

a. What, she planned in her sorrow to give a big, naked "hop" off ?

b. From that one footprint or hop she STRANGLED....She didn't break her neck from a big hop, then a fall, she strangled.

4. The last thing is the police reporting. I know both you and I read reports along the way that were not accurate and I'm sorry, from that one report initially re. the bedrooms, I felt sloppy police. No one should have picked that up, passed that along for typing, given it to the press and not realized, "Hey, you have obviously hanged houses here...and...you neglected to say that." WHAT ELSE DID THEY LEAVE OUT????

I really do go with Antilles' theory, "No CPR, kid dead, No Rebecca" I think there is further justification of that kind of theory in Jonah's history of domestic abuse....and

4. No food in R's stomach. The dinner that you were referring to that actually was timed from 6:00 -10:00 p. does not seem to have been one that R consumed. No food in her stomach...green cc's nothing.

5. Was the police reporting anywhere near to being close to accurate because I was ready and I thought prepared todiscuss times that I now feel were a mixed up mess.

I know, Regi, I can give you a headache but is any of the above logical to you?

Edited July 7, 2013 by Duncansmom

[Regi]

I have a problem with R hanging herself nude during her period which she would know would create a total spectacle.

a. R seems to have been a pretty descent girl, no where is there a hint of her being an exhibitionist in any way.

Well, the autopsy report states "no visible trauma". Of course, unnatural bleeding would have to be caused by some sort of injury so since there wasn't any- including externally- then the cause appears apparent considering the origin.

Since I don't believe sexual assault occurred, then to me, the element of nudity loses significance. (I think it had significance to her, but I think the reason for it was a personal one that only she could know.)

Here's the autopsy report. Info. re: the balcony/footprints is addressed on page 3.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/64114521/Reports

Edited July 11, 2013 by regi

[Vincennes]

Well, that was the first autopsy. The second one did find some bruises her head. Of course, the severity of those bruises is in question. There is another later report I believe from the doctor who performed the second autopsy that another partial footprint was located on the balcony. It was not Rebecca's and not the police officer who initially went up to the bedroom but it was under the policeman's print and partially obscured by it. I can't find were I found that now and was really pretty inconclusive by itself. However, even if we accept two footprints. To me that's not enough to logistically throw yourself over a balcony rail. Her hands are bound so tshe couldn't use her arms for balance to take her over as a diver does. She didn't accomplish one big leap and throw herself because that would have resulted in a broken neck. I can't see how she would have accomplished going over simply by leaning forward with more movement of her feet while doing so.

Reason why she would be naked? I agree, with no more facts than are now available if it was suicide, we will never know. If we go with it were her decision, to me trying to follow a female train of thought her motivation would be directed at Jonah. Could he have been so angry during that last 4 hour dinner period that she felt stripped bare? All are just suppositions, I know, I was just thing.....What it would mean if it were me.

However, the description of the crime scene in that autopsy report is exactly what I was talking about regarding sloppy police reporting. He is in the guest house then boom he is going upstairs and there is black paint. He never states he is now in the main house. I can't believe they kept proudly adding that to their reports and not correcting it, even as an addendum. Now you know, Reg, you would have made sure that was correctly stated in any report you completed. Also,back to the stick drawing the police put out there picturing the kid going over the balcony. They don't show any heights or distance measurements. Now that's just ridiculous.

That just brings me to what I was saying I don't think any of this reporting can be trusted.

[Regi]

In my comment, I was referring to injuries specifically associated with sexual assault.

The first autopsy described the bruising on her head and all are described as "subgaleal hemorrhage" which is bleeding between the scalp and the skull. Re: severity, there was no skull fracture.

Also, notice they're all described as "right"...

There were also a lot of abrasions noted with at least one to the head (described as "vertically oriented, parallel, thin) and at least one to the abdomen, but it seems they were mostly to the back and were all described as "linear".

Re: that in the autopsy report, I did notice what you mentioned about the way the narration skipped from the guest house to the main house and I didn't like that and you're right, I would have never done that sort of thing!

Still, it's not something that would cause me to question the rest of the report.

Re: height and distance, those things are indicated in the autopsy report. I know the pathologist was on the scene, so it must have been someone from his office who took the measurements, or he learned that info. from investigators.

Re: why naked, I linked to "naked suicide" somewhere in these pages and it certainly occurs, but as I recall, there's not been much study about it. Even if there were documented studies, I still think the reason could only be conclusively known to her.

As in many cases, there's some things we'll never know.

Re: the shoe print on the balcony, I remember that that photo was from an independent investigator hired at a later time, so I'd question who else could have been there since the initial investigation.

With something like a shoe print, I'd certainly rely on what was observed at the time of the death and not some time later.

Edited July 12, 2013 by regi

[Vincennes]

I have no problems with anything in your post. However, the dr. who performed the second autopsy noted that he felt those bruises/lacerations to her head could have resulted in her being unconscious. I also agree with a possible cause the partial print discovered later being a contaminated scene. My problem is more specifically with the lack of Rebecca's prints. I do not see how she could have thrown herself over and left only two prints.

I still feel the sloppy crime scene report indicates a lack of attention to detail on the part of the person who performed it and that's been carried forward by everyone who so proudly included that in their own reports; e.g., the autopsy doctor. I've had to assist in preparing probably a couple of hundred incident (bodily injury) reports and believe me I would have pointed that out to however had inspected the scene before it was submitted. These have to be as complete as possible and correct. In my situation, we had to always be totally prepared to defend against possible law suits. Ours were also reviewed by others before they are submitted as part of the record. I know this wasn't a law suit situation but at the time the report was completed, they couldn't know that it wouldn't be taken as evidence in a murder trial. I just can't imagine the lackadaisical attitudes that put their stamp of approval on this and never even bothered to go back and amend it.

I have another question for you though. Is there anything in this case that bothers you? You really are a much more detailed person than I am. So I'm sitting here thinking, even though I know you go with the police version, there has to be something in those details that you see and I don't, but something that gives you just a slight pause too.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Duncansmom

[Regi]

I don't recall any lacerations anywhere on the body.

Re: the footprints, I think the fact that the prints are barefoot and that her soles are dirty is especially notable because they make evident that she stepped out there on her own and are oriented in a way that show that her ankles were tied ("heels together").

As to how she left few prints, that balcony is rather small and it appears to me that it would only take a step or so from the doorway to be next to the railing.

I don't remember seeing a crime scene report.

From an investigative standpoint, I'm not bothered a single thing re: the Zahau case! From a psychological standpoint, what gives me pause is to wonder why she chose suicide....and why she left a vague message rather than a note of explanation; a riddle rather than a good-bye.

[Vincennes]

I referred to the "Scene Description" as the "Crime Scene Report" just my terminology.

Ok, I went back to that report. Her prints are together in a V shape which would be, as you said, due the fact her feet were bound. How then did she move feet forward for the toe prints that are at the balcony rail? Here I am again with my, did she hop question?

Why leave a vague message, a riddle, as a goodbye? Maybe, people in the process of a suicide are not really in a sane place. I don't know. I have always wondered why that note is always covered up in the pictures of the scene? No names were mentioned. Why cover it multiple times in several different pictures? I think it was Rebecca's ex-husband who was the first source for what that note said. He was interviewed by police and made a statement afterward they had shown him the note and that it was in a backhand style that he had never seen Rebecca use.

This case just makes me bonkers !!!! LOL

I read once that Edgar Allen Poe challenged himself one time to solve an unsolved murder simply from the newspaper reports and he was able to solve it. I think that case resulted in the basis of the "The Mystery of Marie Roget." It just seems to me their are clues to what happened right there waiting to be interpreted.

[Regi]

Oh, I wouldn't want to discourage you from continuing to study the case!

When a case bothers me, I wouldn't say I give up on it. I'll set it aside, but I'll periodically check for any possible updates.

I don't remember a documented scene description....

About that message, I've seen that photo of the door with the message painted over and it must have been taken during a later investigation because I'm sure I've seen a photo of the message as it appeared on the door.

[CuriousLittleOne]

written on the door (and judging by the height it was on the door, a 6year old could not have done it): she saved him , can he save her

- how they believe max fell..... seems fishy , a 6 year old does not die from falling just a short distance.....

"Max was hospitalized, but because he had hit his head on the floor "he suffered injury to his upper spinal cord that stopped his heart and lungs. That resulted in brain damage. He subsequently died from that brain injury five days later," said Dr. Jonathan Lucas, who conducted Max's autopsy." - well that shut me up.

Edited July 14, 2013 by CuriousLittleOne

[CuriousLittleOne]

Oh, I wouldn't want to discourage you from continuing to study the case!

When a case bothers me, I wouldn't say I give up on it. I'll set it aside, but I'll periodically check for any possible updates.

I don't remember a documented scene description....

About that message, I've seen that photo of the door with the message painted over and it must have been taken during a later investigation because I'm sure I've seen a photo of the message as it appeared on the door.

i wouldbe interested to see the unedited version , but im sure they are all taken down...

http://www.drmaurice...stanalysis.html

good website aswell

---INTERESTING---

July 13th - 12:30 AM Jonah claims he sent a voicemail message to Rebecca stating that Max's condition was grave and his death was imminent. NOTE: We are to believe that Jonah, a loving father, leaves a voice mail on his girlfriend Rebecca's smartphone at 12:30AM that his son's death is imminent. OK, let's pause on this one for a minute...

So upon receiving his alleged message, what does Rebecca do? She showers in the master bathroom, leaves a clump of hair in the shower, splatters menstrual blood on the shower wall, wearing a towel she goes to the garage to find a tow rope, goes to the guest room, writes the cryptic message "She saved him Can you save her" in CAPS on the door in acrylic paint using 2 paintbrushes, measures and cuts the tow rope in 3 pieces using 2 knives, fashions a noose around her neck, binds her ankles, wraps a t-shirt around her neck and stuffs the ends in her mouth, binds her wrists behind her back, hop hops to the light switch to turn off the lights, then hop hops to the balcony door, closing it behind her, then in a one-toed hop to the balcony railing, tips herself over and into history.

FROM:http://realitychatter.forumotions.net/t3558p100-rebecca-zahau-found-dead-at-historic-mansion-7-13-11

Edited July 14, 2013 by CuriousLittleOne

[Vincennes]

Curious, I agree !!! that's. Thanks for attaching the stick drawing. Now if you look at that fine piece of evidence. It shows the balcony railing coming just a little above the stick's waist. ( No, measurements, we don't need to show any measurements ~~) Well, the autopsy did show the kid's height. It was 42" I looked up a standard balcony rail is 36 - 39 inches. So that wouldn't put it at the kid's stomach level. It would be at about his chin level. So how is he going to get a thrust taking him over it and out ? I even doubt he could crawl up onto the railing at that height?

I also question why Rebecca would leave splattered blood in the bathroom and then nothing while she sits and cut and ties her legs together. None either when she is doing her "hop abouts." There's a leverage problem here too. Her hands were behind her back, legs tied and she is on one toe.....and she doesn't throw herself over the balcony. Couldn't have because her neck wasn't broken, she strangled. Also, she would have had to put the shirt over her head and stuff it in her mouth before she tied up her hands. Now, me, if I tried that I'd be too busy gagging to go much further.

[Antilles]

In case you're not aware, Zahau's family is suing for wrongful death.

Adam and Dina Schaknai, the brother and ex-wife of Jonah Schaknai as well as Dina's twin sister, are cited as defendants.

The mansion was put up for sale last month for around $16.5 million.

Obviously, Zahau's family aren't satisfied.

Should be very interesting.

http://abcnews.go.co...wn#.UePOFb5-85s

[Regi]

i wouldbe interested to see the unedited version , but im sure they are all taken down...

I don't remember it looking like that. It seems it was neatly written. Oh well.

Edited July 15, 2013 by regi

[HollyDolly]

I hadn't read all the details about her death.It sounds like murder to me.I didn't know her hand s were behind her back or that there was a shirt over her head and that the shirt or part of it stuffed in her mouth.I think someone hit her in the head and either knocked her unconcious and then tied her up,or the blow or blows to the head,killed her. The killer might have even strangled her for good measure.Then he, and I believe it's a man, trussed her up and hung the body.He took and tied the rope around her neck and then to the balcony and threw the body over.It was also the killer who wrote the words found,not this poor woman. Don't know why they have never looked into any of Jonah's business associates, specially in regards to drugs.

[Vincennes]

In case you're not aware, Zahau's family is suing for wrongful death.

Adam and Dina Schaknai, the brother and ex-wife of Jonah Schaknai as well as Dina's twin sister, are cited as defendants.

The mansion was put up for sale last month for around $16.5 million.

Obviously, Zahau's family aren't satisfied.

Should be very interesting.

http://abcnews.go.co...wn#.UePOFb5-85s

That's a great post. Thanks! I'm hopefully this is going to force other information or clarification of information. However, there is one detail that shows up well in the first video which includes the stairwell that Max fell from and that is that it really shows how far away that chandelier is from the stair rail. If Max fell from the top level. He not only at 42 inches went over that railing, he went forward quite a distance. If we simply fell over, he would go pretty straight down. How did he impact the chandelier?

Interesting also, I don't see that Jonah was named as a defendant. I never thought of putting Adam and the Nina and Dina twins together. Interesting, since Adam was the last one with her. He is the one with the boating history and might tie those knots without realizing what he was doing.

I was also interested too in the demonstration of how she was tied, how many times the ropes were shown to be wrapped around her wrists. Pretty hard to do by yourself and even harder to do with a your mouth stuffed full of a tee-shirt as I said earlier. I would have had to stop there and give it up while I gagged.

[+ouija ouija]

In case you're not aware, Zahau's family is suing for wrongful death.

Adam and Dina Schaknai, the brother and ex-wife of Jonah Schaknai as well as Dina's twin sister, are cited as defendants.

The mansion was put up for sale last month for around $16.5 million.

Obviously, Zahau's family aren't satisfied.

Should be very interesting.

http://abcnews.go.co...wn#.UePOFb5-85s

Antilles, I couldn't get your link to work. This one probably says much the same thing:

http://www.dailymail...g-murdered.html

Good Luck to them. The previous ruling was farcical in the extreme. Maybe justice will be served this time around.

Edited July 15, 2013 by ouija ouija

[Regi]

The civil suit is ludicrous; not only is there no evidence that the three named in the suit committed a homicide, there's no evidence that there was a homicide!

Their objective must be to obtain statements under oath because I don't see any other logical reason.

[Vincennes]

The only real logic I can see in a civil suit is just that, if it can bring some clarity to some of the reporting and some of the police work. It might be interesting if more statements are taken (as in the Z trial) to see if they remain the same.

Although all there are reasons to suspect all three on the surface, ( I think Dina was one of the original suspects, before any police work was released, because of her anger history with Jonah.) I've never seem anywhere that they had a chance to come together and "plot." Adam is Jonah's brother, It would seem Jonah would be more in Rebecca's camp than Dina's. Dina being the ex, plus I've never seen anything in the timeframe that would allow for a plot. At this point though, nothing is known about that relationship, perhaps he remained close to Dina. I also remember way back, Reg, I think you posted the Nina's interview and I thought she sounded forthcoming and quite sincerely mystified.

Well, I -guess I'm hoping for just what Reg said, more statements.

[Vincennes]

This link was among our initial posts back in Feb. and on YouTube, it somehow came forward. I have not a clue if this will work again. It has initial information and Dr. Phil Shows (which I did not watch)

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=239725&st=105

Maybe, Antilles, if this doesn't work, you can help go back and bring it forward. I'm not that good at links.....Somehow, though, it came from Feb. and brought forward a lot of Dr. Phil links.....I don't know how any of these individuals...Who all seem to be speaking so much from the heart could be guilty.... Neither Dina or Becky, from her history,..... but it does graphically show that Max's center of gravity was too low to have gone over that balcony in such a manner. I don't think there is one bit of evidence Becky would have thrown the child...... Where does that leave us....???

[Regi]

The only real logic I can see in a civil suit is just that, if it can bring some clarity to some of the reporting and some of the police work. It might be interesting if more statements are taken (as in the Z trial) to see if they remain the same.

I agree for those same reasons.

Also, we know that everyone- including Jonah- have already given statements to investigators and that those statements were then correlated- not only with each others, but with their cell records, other witnesses, and the video recordings from the hospital, but maybe statements under oath- if nothing else- can offer the clarification that Zahau's family has been needing.

I want to add- and this is from my perspective only- that Zahau's family may never accept that Zahau's death was suicide, but maybe they can come to see that the Shacknai's and Nina didn't have anything to do with her death.

Although all there are reasons to suspect all three on the surface, ( I think Dina was one of the original suspects, before any police work was released, because of her anger history with Jonah.) I've never seem anywhere that they had a chance to come together and "plot." Adam is Jonah's brother, It would seem Jonah would be more in Rebecca's camp than Dina's. Dina being the ex, plus I've never seen anything in the timeframe that would allow for a plot. At this point though, nothing is known about that relationship, perhaps he remained close to Dina. I also remember way back, Reg, I think you posted the Nina's interview and I thought she sounded forthcoming and quite sincerely mystified.

Good insight!

Dina's never appeared to me to be an angry, vengeful person; she's always appeared to me to be a mother who wants answers regarding the events leading up to her son's death.

Re: Nina, she definitely came across in that interview as entirely forthcoming and quite sincere!

I believe everything she said. I believe her when she said Zahau wouldn't talk about Max's accident. So...why wouldn't Zahau talk about it? Why wouldn't Zahau have wanted shared that awful experience with Nina when Nina asked her about it? Why would Nina even have to ask? Why would Zahau later avoid Nina? She didn't answer Nina's text and soon after the text, she wouldn't answer when Nina came to the door.

Edited July 15, 2013 by regi