Spreckel Mansion Death/Suicide

[Vincennes]

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2013 at 6:19 PM, ouija ouija said:

Not sure about Rebecca's autopsy. Can it be the real deal? It starts off with: 'date & time of death: 07/13/2011 0648' but surely that's the time Adam made the 911 call? It goes on: 'last seen alive: 07/13/11 21:50' !! How does that work ...... seen alive 15 hours after she died?

Also, were the 'dried secretions' on the hem of the t-shirt that was around Rebecca's neck, analysed?

I'm just going back through the thread.  It looks like you caught the possibility of DNA being present.  I wonder if those "secretions" are from the knife touching the t-shirt hem or worse ?

[Regi]

First, the allegations of the civil suit were that Jonah Shacknai's ex-wife and her sister conspired to murder Zahau in retaliation, and now the allegations are that Zahau was murdered as part of a sexual assault.

Oh, Brother.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-investigations/2018/02/28/jurors-hear-opening-statements-coronado-hanging-trial-rebecca-zahau-death/383598002/

 

[+susieice]

I didn't want to quote someone who hasn't been here for a couple years, but I found this regarding the civil suit. It started February 28.

https://www.10news.com/news/rebecca-zahau-death-opening-statements-to-begin-in-civil-lawsuit-trial

This one is dated March 1.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/mysterious-death-rebecca-zahau-bizarre-case-stands-today/story?id=53425140

These are San Diego reports regarding the opening statements March 1.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/sd-me-zahau-openings-20180228-story.html

http://fox5sandiego.com/2018/02/28/court-hears-opening-statements-in-rebecca-zahau-wrongful-death-lawsuit/

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Opening-Statement-Rebecca-Zahau-Mansion-Mystery-Shacknai-San-Diego-475433983.html

It took me a minute, but I remember discussing this case well. It's been awhile. It was kind of weird when I googled and saw this civil case is just now opening in court. I still don't think that little boy's death was an accident and I don't think Rebecca's death was a suicide. We'll have to keep an eye on what unfolds in court.

Edited March 2, 2018 by susieice

[strunk64]

20/20 just now ran a show on this case. She was hung on an outside balcony. They are stating she was manually strangled before the hanging, I missed the first half of the show so I need to find it and watch the whole thing.

[+susieice]

Rebecca's mother testified in court today.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/37626118/zahau-civil-trial-mother-testifies-in-wrongful-death-lawsuit

Opening statements were yesterday.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-investigations/2018/02/28/jurors-hear-opening-statements-coronado-hanging-trial-rebecca-zahau-death/383598002/

I found this on the 20/20 re-enactment.

http://www.insideedition.com/rebecca-zahau-death-disturbing-reenactment-tries-determine-whether-she-could-have-killed-herself

ABC released this today.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/police-found-scene-womans-mysterious-california-mansion-death/story?id=53443996

[+susieice]

It's a shame a lot of our old links don't work anymore.

[+ouija ouija]

This is an interesting video of a re-enactment of everything Rebecca allegedly did to end up hanging from the balcony.

 

Here are two comments relating to the above video which I thought were interesting:

"In psychologically profiling Rebecca Zahau for the purpose of weighing the probability of a suicide scenario, one must look first & foremost for evidence of prior impulsivity and an 'alter ego' manifest via behavior considered out of character for Rebecca's 'normal' or baseline personality.  "In August 2009, [Rebecca] Zahau was arrested for shoplifting under the name Rebecca Nalepa. She pled guilty to stealing $1,000 worth of jewels from Macy's in Phoenix, Arizona." These facts serve to establish that Rebecca Zahau had an 'alter ego' and prior history of impulsivity, which are foundational in a plausible assertion of suicide."

"In Asian culture, suicide is nearly always accompanied with a note, while in America it is a random event. The note is a sign of the deceased giving the family answers,  and is seen as a sign of respecting the family members no matter the issue. In Europe, suicide notes are less common and in Russia they are rare."

Edited March 3, 2018 by ouija ouija

[+susieice]

So the possibility exists that this was a suicide, maybe because Rebecca was harboring deep feelings of guilt over the boy's death. It's just that the circumstances surrounding both deaths are so unusual, it's hard to believe it was a suicide. 

[+ouija ouija]

I've always felt so sure that Rebecca did not commit suicide but now I'm dithering a bit. I just wondered if she gagged herself so that she couldn't cry out and attract someone's attention before she had accomplished her aim. But at the same time, the bed not having moved very far seems to point to a set up.

[+susieice]

42 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

I've always felt so sure that Rebecca did not commit suicide but now I'm dithering a bit. I just wondered if she gagged herself so that she couldn't cry out and attract someone's attention before she had accomplished her aim. But at the same time, the bed not having moved very far seems to point to a set up.

I still wonder about her knees being bent. If she hung herself, her legs would have relaxed at the point of death and they'd be straight. The lividity being in the back is also puzzling. It's a shame our old links don't work anymore. Maybe the trial will help clarify these points. I'll never understand how that little boy jumped the railing with that scooter either. Go through it, yes, but not over it unless a ramp was involved.

[Vincennes]

 

No way suicide !  Why in the world would someone intent on killing themselves take every step they could to make that attempt almost impossible ?  I'm going to throw myself over this waist high balcony, so I'll tie my feet together so closely I can't walk to it without the probability of falling ?   (The autopsy states her feet couldn't be separated more than 2".)  Then I'll fix the possibility of using my hands to go over it by tying them behind my back ?  There's no possible logic to that.  

[+ouija ouija]

13 hours ago, susieice said:

I still wonder about her knees being bent. If she hung herself, her legs would have relaxed at the point of death and they'd be straight. The lividity being in the back is also puzzling. It's a shame our old links don't work anymore. Maybe the trial will help clarify these points. I'll never understand how that little boy jumped the railing with that scooter either. Go through it, yes, but not over it unless a ramp was involved.

Yes, it's exasperating that some of the old links don't work anymore. I'd forgotten about her knees being bent .... that couldn't have happened as she dropped to the ground when Adam Shacknai cut her down, could it? With regard to Max, I wonder if he had an idea he would skate down the banisters on his scooter? He may have got himself astride the banisters and was trying to pull the scooter up with him when he lost his balance.

1 hour ago, Vincennes said:

 

No way suicide !  Why in the world would someone intent on killing themselves take every step they could to make that attempt almost impossible ?  I'm going to throw myself over this waist high balcony, so I'll tie my feet together so closely I can't walk to it without the probability of falling ?   (The autopsy states her feet couldn't be separated more than 2".)  Then I'll fix the possibility of using my hands to go over it by tying them behind my back ?  There's no possible logic to that.  

The only explanation would be if she was trying to make it look like a murder disguised as a suicide. Perhaps she genuinely took her own life but was hoping to implicate either/both of the Shacknai brothers.

[+susieice]

Here's what a forensic fingerprint expert testified to in court.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Forensic-Print-Expert-Testifies-in-Coronado-Mansion-Mysterious-Death-475576263.html

Sounds like an awfully elaborate suicide. Probably took hours for her to set up if that was the case.

Edited March 4, 2018 by susieice

[rashore]

I haven't read through the thread yet, just the first page and last page or so. So I'm not sure what's been posted before or not. The wondering about Max made me wonder about it too.. and I dug up a couple old articles about it. While along the way I've been reading that Max's death was a bit re-investigated.. and so was Rebecca's- she had a second autopsy apparently?

Anyway, I figured I'd drop the old articles I found interesting about that...

9/8/11: What Really Happened in the Coronado Mansion?: http://www.newsweek.com/what-really-happened-coronado-mansion-67411

11/7/11: Exclusive: Max Shacknai’s aunt talks about Coronado mansion deaths: http://www.cbs8.com/story/15982091/exclusive-max-shacknais-aunt-talks-about-coronado-mansion-deaths?clienttype=printable

8/8/12: Max Shacknai, Son Of Millionaire Jonah Shacknai, Was Likely Murdered: Report: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/08/max-shacknai-murdered-jonah-shacknai-report_n_1757919.html

[+susieice]

38 minutes ago, rashore said:

I haven't read through the thread yet, just the first page and last page or so. So I'm not sure what's been posted before or not. The wondering about Max made me wonder about it too.. and I dug up a couple old articles about it. While along the way I've been reading that Max's death was a bit re-investigated.. and so was Rebecca's- she had a second autopsy apparently?

Anyway, I figured I'd drop the old articles I found interesting about that...

9/8/11: What Really Happened in the Coronado Mansion?: http://www.newsweek.com/what-really-happened-coronado-mansion-67411

11/7/11: Exclusive: Max Shacknai’s aunt talks about Coronado mansion deaths: http://www.cbs8.com/story/15982091/exclusive-max-shacknais-aunt-talks-about-coronado-mansion-deaths?clienttype=printable

8/8/12: Max Shacknai, Son Of Millionaire Jonah Shacknai, Was Likely Murdered: Report: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/08/max-shacknai-murdered-jonah-shacknai-report_n_1757919.html

From the first link:

Was the bent leg significant? Perhaps she had thrown herself over the balcony and broken her hip in the fall. Sheriff Gore advised the media that due to “the bizarre circumstances of this incident,” time would be needed to determine 

The leg being bent was questioned before. What fall would have broken the hip? If she hung herself, she's only be in air. Even those bushes couldn't have been hard enough to do that. Was her hip even broken because I don't remember that ever being mentioned.

From the third link:

Dr. Cyril Wecht, who performed the new autopsy, said that it was unlikely Zahau died of hanging, as her neck was not fractured. In addition, he discovered evidence of blunt trauma to her head.

Wecht recommended changing the cause of death from “suicide” to “undetermined,” though the coroner did not change the cause of death.

Apparently the second autopsy did not confirm what police originally said. It only made more questions. Same with Max's death. Also from third link:

ollowing a nine-month investigation, Dr. Judy Melinek, a forensic pathologist, and Dr. Robert Bove, an injury biomechanics, concluded that Max Shacknai’s death was no accident, KPHO reports. They say that the fall could not explain several injuries found on Max’s face, shoulder, and neck, according to Fox News.

The two doctors believe that Max was beaten before either being forced over the balcony railing, or jumping over the railing in an effort to escape.

I think Rebecca may have known more than she said at the time also. She must have heard something going on.

Edited March 4, 2018 by susieice

[+susieice]

Max's mother's sister doesn't seem to believe the accident thing either. She says Rebecca was acting strangely when she arrived that day and asked questions. This article also raises questions about Rebecca's autopsy. A lot of things that the police didn't look into. 

https://www.townandcountrymag.com/society/money-and-power/a13795756/shaknai-deaths-mystery-coronado-california/

Edited March 4, 2018 by susieice

[+Not A Rockstar]

14 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

Yes, it's exasperating that some of the old links don't work anymore. I'd forgotten about her knees being bent .... that couldn't have happened as she dropped to the ground when Adam Shacknai cut her down, could it? With regard to Max, I wonder if he had an idea he would skate down the banisters on his scooter? He may have got himself astride the banisters and was trying to pull the scooter up with him when he lost his balance.

The only explanation would be if she was trying to make it look like a murder disguised as a suicide. Perhaps she genuinely took her own life but was hoping to implicate either/both of the Shacknai brothers.

From what I have read, and I have no quotes now, this is from before, the boy was not the adventurous sort likely to be getting up high on a railing alone. He was a chronic hand holder type in anything at all new from what...I think it was his aunt said, iirc. 

I have personally thought that if this WAS suicide it had to be an effort to frame someone else but for her as a supposed Oriental acting on honor and guilt, etc, that does not jell well. The only thing that makes sense all the way through is murder, and that by a high drama amateur who went way overboard in the drama and effort to humiliate her in the dying.

Now a third hypothesis could be it was a murder but devised to point at someone else.

Just purely my own thoughts and all of it speculation. I have alternatively wondered if there also may be some truth in that these two deaths were warnings to Shacknai, but to start with a child is .... not common anyway in that sort of scenario from what little I know of that type of crime.

[WiggedOut]

I have no doubt it was a suicide. It is Max’s death I find mysterious. Rebecca was very fit and could have easily tied herself up and gone over the balcony. It was only as high as a yardstick. She was an avid runner, rock climber, and boater. She must have felt a lot of guilt over the boy’s accident - whether just because she was watching him or something more nefarious. Her legs were bent because she was put down on the ground after she had only been dead for about 3 1/2 hours - she would not have had much rigor at that time. It only took the woman in that reinactment less than 30 minutes to do everything Rebecca Zahau did.

[+Not A Rockstar]

4 minutes ago, WiggedOut said:

I have no doubt it was a suicide. It is Max’s death I find mysterious. Rebecca was very fit and could have easily tied herself up and gone over the balcony. It was only as high as a yardstick. She was an avid runner, rock climber, and boater. She must have felt a lot of guilt over the boy’s accident - whether just because she was watching him or something more nefarious. Her legs were bent because she was put down on the ground after she had only been dead for about 3 1/2 hours - she would not have had much rigor at that time. It only took the woman in that reinactment less than 30 minutes to do everything Rebecca Zahau did.

Fair enough. You could be right. So you think that the over the top parts of this death were her trying to add to her sort of payback for the sense of guilt she felt? It could be as I don't know these people at all. Your view is as likely as mine.

The child's death just doesn't seem an accident to me. I also do not feel satisfied we know enough about her little sister being shipped out post haste the next day. Was she hiding something? Was she afraid her sister was next? Did the sister see something? Do something? Mind you I am NOT saying she did, just it seems unsettled there, not enough answers yet for me. 

Just my opinion.

[+susieice]

The first autopsy showed Rebecca had lividity in her back. It did not drain to her legs when she was placed vertically. If that's the case then that means her heart had stopped pumping long before she went off the balcony. I really wish our old links would work. I'll see if I can find a link to this somewhere now.

[+susieice]

I found the San Diego newspaper's forum that discusses lividity and the case. I'll keep looking. I know that autopsy report was online when we went into this thread in 2013.

http://forums.sandiegouniontribune.com/showthread.php?p=4528993

[WiggedOut]

I also think Rebecca’s sister being sent away so quickly was suspect. They also really tried to keep her a secret for quite a while.

Rebecca’s autopsy was not until the next day. She was only hanging for 3 1/2 hours and then on her back the rest of the time. It was be strange if the lividity wasn’t in her back!

[+susieice]

Here's Rebecca's complete autopsy. It isn't until page 8 of the report itself that it says livor mortis is posterior and fixed. Red livor mortis was detected on upper chest. It states her wrists were easily removed from the rope. Rigor mortis was detected in all extremities, the jaw and the neck. It's all there. The toxicology report, everything.

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/zahau, rebecca_report.pdf

[+susieice]

10 minutes ago, WiggedOut said:

I also think Rebecca’s sister being sent away so quickly was suspect. They also really tried to keep her a secret for quite a while.

Rebecca’s autopsy was not until the next day. She was only hanging for 3 1/2 hours and then on her back the rest of the time. It was be strange if the lividity wasn’t in her back!

Where are you getting 3 1/2 hours from? I know she was found around 6:30 but no one knows when she went off the balcony that I know of. Also her body was moved when she was found. Livor mortis starts about 30 minutes after death but doesn't stablize until 6 hours after. She had some in her chest. Her autopsy says hers was fixed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livor_mortis

Edited March 5, 2018 by susieice

[WiggedOut]

Her time of death was estimated at 3 am. No earlier than 1 am, and no later than 3 am. That is what the Medical Examiner said in the Press Conference on her death. Most referrals to it in the media that I have seen say “3 am”.