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Vincennes

Spreckel Mansion Death/Suicide

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Vincennes

I agree for those same reasons.

Also, we know that everyone- including Jonah- have already given statements to investigators and that those statements were then correlated- not only with each others, but with their cell records, other witnesses, and the video recordings from the hospital, but maybe statements under oath- if nothing else- can offer the clarification that Zahau's family has been needing.

I want to add- and this is from my perspective only- that Zahau's family may never accept that Zahau's death was suicide, but maybe they can come to see that the Shacknai's and Nina didn't have anything to do with her death.

Good insight!

Dina's never appeared to me to be an angry, vengeful person; she's always appeared to me to be a mother who wants answers regarding the events leading up to her son's death.

Re: Nina, she definitely came across in that interview as entirely forthcoming and quite sincere!

I believe everything she said. I believe her when she said Zahau wouldn't talk about Max's accident. So...why wouldn't Zahau talk about it? Why wouldn't Zahau have wanted shared that awful experience with Nina when Nina asked her about it? Why would Nina even have to ask? Why would Zahau later avoid Nina? She didn't answer Nina's text and soon after the text, she wouldn't answer when Nina came to the door.

I agree with all you said.... So that means, there has to be another explanation!... All of those people appear and have sounded to be far to real to be denied and I think they also want to know..~~~~ So if not them....Then it is a question of logic who ~~~~ or what ~~~

By the way, been going over Becky's autopsy, found some other significant errors..... I'll share them tomorrow....

Edited by Duncansmom

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Antilles

I'm actually more interested in why Jonah Schaknai has not been named as a defendant. Adam found Rebecca's body, but Jonah's ex-wife and her sister are named also.

I agree that the Zahau family obviously want answers but they also obviously want money.

I mentioned a long time ago looking at the crime scene photos that I cannot work out how Max could have possibly propelled himself off that balcony onto the chandelier then hurtle to his death below.

Didn't buy it then, I don't buy it now and I still believe that Rebecca was somehow involved in Max's death. I don't think she pushed him off the balcony or anything like that. Her coverup came when he was dying and she obviously lied about CPR she said she attempted. She may even have been involved in the 'game' he played on the balcony.

So, Max dies, then Rebecca dies.

I have always thought it was suicide but OK, let's say she had some help. The only person not being sued is Jonah, so obviously the Zahau's believe Jonah's brother, Jonah's ex-wife and Jonah's ex sister-in-law are all involved.

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Regi

I agree with all you said.... So that means, there has to be another explanation!... All of those people appear and have sounded to be far to real to be denied and I think they also want to know..~~~~ So if not them....Then it is a question of logic who ~~~~ or what ~~~

I'm not sure what you mean by "another explanation". What I meant was, I highly doubt Zahau's family will ever accept the suicide ruling, but maybe they can stop pointing the finger at particular people.

I don't know how the suit could get past the filing because I see no grounds to support the allegations, but regardless, I think it might could be helpful for Zahau's family if they heard testimony and saw other evidence.

I want to clarify there was never any 'real' suspects. (I thought you were referring to Zahau's family and anyone else who doesn't believe the suicide ruling.)

The death was investigated as a homicide and in that process, alibi's were confirmed, but that's not to say that those people were ever actually considered suspects.

It wouldn't have been a thorough investigation if investigators hadn't obtained statements and verified alibi's of those they'd logically look to.

Re: Jonah's and Dina's relationship until they were divorced or even after, I don't know anything about it.

I've seen comments from those who've followed the case refer to some kind of domestic violence that apparently occurred between the two at some time previously, and I guess based on that, they seem to think Dina was capable of murder.

Well, all I can say about that line of thinking is that it's not following the evidence.

Edited by regi

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Regi

I mentioned a long time ago looking at the crime scene photos that I cannot work out how Max could have possibly propelled himself off that balcony onto the chandelier then hurtle to his death below.

What I think bothers me the most about the scene are the gouges in that top railing. Obviously, the scooter made those, but I don't know how that could be possible with Max on it, or by the scooter having followed Max over the railing.

My conclusion is obvious; those gouges aren't accidental because I don't see them as having occurred accidentally.

Edited by regi
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Vincennes

I'm actually more interested in why Jonah Schaknai has not been named as a defendant. Adam found Rebecca's body, but Jonah's ex-wife and her sister are named also.

I agree that the Zahau family obviously want answers but they also obviously want money.

I mentioned a long time ago looking at the crime scene photos that I cannot work out how Max could have possibly propelled himself off that balcony onto the chandelier then hurtle to his death below.

Didn't buy it then, I don't buy it now and I still believe that Rebecca was somehow involved in Max's death. I don't think she pushed him off the balcony or anything like that. Her coverup came when he was dying and she obviously lied about CPR she said she attempted. She may even have been involved in the 'game' he played on the balcony.

So, Max dies, then Rebecca dies.

I have always thought it was suicide but OK, let's say she had some help. The only person not being sued is Jonah, so obviously the Zahau's believe Jonah's brother, Jonah's ex-wife and Jonah's ex sister-in-law are all involved.

Thanks for bringing that link forward, Antilles. It shows some of the now defendants previous demeanors.

I don't know if money is a consideration that brought about this lawsuit. I think they are just looking for clarity. One of the reasons they might not have brought Jonah in is that he is the money. If he were named in the suit he might be more inclined to use that money to just tie it up in the system. In today's courts you have to watch who you are suing. If the cost of losing is going to be high enough then it becomes beneficial to just throw more money into it through legal maneuvers than you can afford to combat and you loose before you ever get to first base.

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Vincennes

Okay, I feel a little like Nancy Grace here, after going over Rebecca's autopsy report again in view of what was later released. "Well........ bombshell today" ~~~ LOL

This involves the sloppy reporting and inconsistencies the police that had Reg and I debating dual times, hotels and people that had in fact been mixed up in one big ball by the police themselves. It seems the first autopsy doctor didn't even try to stay together with the police report of time and locations either or maybe he too just got confused with what they didn't have consistent.

The information released with the search warrant"

New information included in the search warrant affidavits is contained in the following quotes from the unsealed records:

"Jonah (Shacknai) was at the gym when he received a call from Rebecca telling him about Maxfield's accident. He immediately went home then followed the ambulance transporting Maxfield to the hospital."

"(Jonah) said on July 11, 2011, he was at the hospital with son, Maxfield. He went to his residence in Coronado later that evening to shower and pack a change of clothes. He returned to the Ronald McDonald House, across the street from Rady's Children's Hospital, at about 0155 hours, but they were at full capacity so he got a hotel at the Homestead Inn for the night. He returned to the hospital on July 12, 2011, around 0530-0600. His ex-wife, Dina Shacknai, was at the hospital when he arrived. Dina left and went to her residence in Coronado to gets some sleep."

"Dina returned to the hospital on July 12, 2011, at about 1800 hours. Rebecca and Adam came to the hospital to pick up Jonah and his friend, Howard. They left the hospital, dropped off Howard at the airport then went to eat some dinner. Jonah returned to the hospital around 2000 hours and Dina was still there. Rebecca and Adam returned to the residence in Coronado. (Jonah) left the hospital around 0100 hours and went to Ronald McDonald House. Dina stayed at the hospital. (Jonah) returned to the hospital on July 13, 2011 at about 0700 hours and Dina was still there"

"(Jonah) received a text message from his brother, Adam Shacknai, on July 13, 2011, at about 0648 hours, advising Rebecca had hung herself."

Now look at the autopsy report:

It's PDF so I can't copy and paste but here are excerpts with locations.

INVESTIGATIVE REPORT Pg. 2 of 3

Para 1, line 8 " On 7/12/11, the decedent drove her sister to the airport to return to her home. While at the airport, she picked up Jonah's brother, Adam Shaknai, who flew in from out of town to be with this brother. They went to the hospital to meet Jonah and then the three went out to dinner."

Where's Howard ????? It goes on.......

AUTOPSY REPORT

OPINIONPg. -2-

Para. 1, line 4, "July 12, 2011, she stayed at the home with her boyfriend's brother, who had just flown in to town................"

I guess Howard and Jonah went dinner by themselves...... I have many, many other questions as I went back through this but here's one thing that seems to be pretty clearly stated:

AUTOPSY REPORT (continued)

BINDINGS AND LIGATURES (Pg. -7-)

Pg. -8-

Ankles

"The ankles are bound by rope similar to that on the neck......and the ankles can be separated a maximum of 2" at the narrowest point"

Now, I pretty sure he is referring to the V shape of the feet and the bottom of the V as the "narrowest point." So, as we have discussed before re. the footprints. Rebecca could only get a foot forward a

maximum of 2" . How did she then make one tip toe print to bring herself to the rail. JUST RAISING THE FOOT TO THE TOE WOULD USE UP THE 2" !!!! I'm not yelling here, I'm just trying to emphasize.

And there is more in that autopsy report. I just want to get this posted before I loose it in going back and forth and cutting and pasting

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Regi

Re: Howard, he was dropped off at the airport before they (Jonah, Rebecca and Adam) went to dinner.

Re: "she stayed at the home", she'd picked up Adam from the airport and they had gone back to the mansion. They later went to the hospital and picked up Jonah and Howard....

Re: how she managed to get to the railing, I think she hopped. She was in great physical condition, and I don't recall her weight, but she appeared light as a feather.

I wouldn't get caught up on lack of prints. The main thing is that her prints are there, and there's a toe print at the railing. That can't be staged.

Edited by regi

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Vincennes

Re: Howard, he was dropped off at the airport before they (Jonah, Rebecca and Adam) went to dinner.

Re: "she stayed at the home", she'd picked up Adam from the airport and they had gone back to the mansion. They later went to the hospital and picked up Jonah and Howard....

Re: how she managed to get to the railing, I think she hopped. She was in great physical condition, and I don't recall her weight, but she appeared light as a feather.

I wouldn't get caught up on lack of prints. The main thing is that her prints are there, and there's a toe print at the railing. That can't be staged.

Re: Howard, he was dropped off at the airport before they (Jonah, Rebecca and Adam) went to dinner.

Re: "she stayed at the home", she'd picked up Adam from the airport and they had gone back to the mansion. They later went to the hospital and picked up Jonah and Howard....

Re: how she managed to get to the railing, I think she hopped. She was in great physical condition, and I don't recall her weight, but she appeared light as a feather.

I wouldn't get caught up on lack of prints. The main thing is that her prints are there, and there's a toe print at the railing. That can't be staged.

Ok, I can see the first statement as they dropped Howard off before dinner. I tried to go back far enough on the second statement but obviously didn't, it says, " On the evening July 12, 2011, she stayed at home with her boyfriend's brother, who yada, yada........

I see that as it is meant to be read....."She was at home that evening". That is not how I would phrase a report that meant: Going out to pick up people at the hospital, dropping them off to the airport, and then having dinner...With all of that to do, she was hardly home at all.

I have always meant "did she hop" as an unbelievable thought. She can only move her feet 2" max. She completes the hop just where she intended to land....and succeeds in doing that landing on one tiptoe... Then, with no forward movement or leverage from her arms (as diver's always do), she does a one tip-toed header?

Now me, I would have given too big of a hop or too little, knocked myself over on the balcony floor and be found alive in the morning hog-tied and naked. Remember Oiuja's experiment of trying to throw herself over the couch. Hard, hard, hard, you need your arms to bring your center of gravity up and forward! ..... Now add to that difficult factor, your legs can't move a centimeter because you are on one tiptoe !

Reg, you posted a good link back in Dec. 12. Pg. 2 of the thread with a sound bite of an interview with Nina. That has some good information in it and I can't seem to bring it forward. Can you please post it again currently? Thanks !

Edited by Duncansmom

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Vincennes

Re: Howard, he was dropped off at the airport before they (Jonah, Rebecca and Adam) went to dinner.

Re: "she stayed at the home", she'd picked up Adam from the airport and they had gone back to the mansion. They later went to the hospital and picked up Jonah and Howard....

Re: how she managed to get to the railing, I think she hopped. She was in great physical condition, and I don't recall her weight, but she appeared light as a feather.

I wouldn't get caught up on lack of prints. The main thing is that her prints are there, and there's a toe print at the railing. That can't be staged.

Re: Howard, he was dropped off at the airport before they (Jonah, Rebecca and Adam) went to dinner.

Re: "she stayed at the home", she'd picked up Adam from the airport and they had gone back to the mansion. They later went to the hospital and picked up Jonah and Howard....

Re: how she managed to get to the railing, I think she hopped. She was in great physical condition, and I don't recall her weight, but she appeared light as a feather.

I wouldn't get caught up on lack of prints. The main thing is that her prints are there, and there's a toe print at the railing. That can't be staged.

Ok, I can see the first statement as they dropped Howard off before dinner. I tried to go back far enough on the second statement but obviously didn't, it says, " On the evening July 12, 2011, she stayed at home with her boyfriend's brother, who yada, yada........

I see that as it is meant to be read....."She was at home that evening". That is not how I would phrase a report that meant: Going out to pick up people at the hospital, dropping them off to the airport, and then having dinner...With all of that to do, she was hardly home at all.

I have always meant "did she hop" as an unbelievable thought. She can only move her feet 2" max. She completes the hop just where she intended to land....and succeeds in doing that landing on one tiptoe... Then, with no forward movement or leverage from her arms (as diver's always do), she does a one tip-toed header?

Now me, I would have given too big of a hop or too little, knocked myself over on the balcony floor and be found alive in the morning hog-tied and naked. Remember Oiuja's experiment of trying to throw herself over the couch. Hard, hard, hard, you need your arms to bring your center of gravity up and forward! ..... Now add to that difficult factor, your legs can't move a centimeter because you are on one tiptoe !

Reg, you posted a good link back in Dec. 12. Pg. 2 of the thread with a sound bite of an interview with Nina. That has some good information in it and I can't seem to bring it forward. Can you please post it again currently? Thanks !

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Regi

Ok, I can see the first statement as they dropped Howard off before dinner. I tried to go back far enough on the second statement but obviously didn't, it says, " On the evening July 12, 2011, she stayed at home with her boyfriend's brother, who yada, yada........

I see that as it is meant to be read....."She was at home that evening". That is not how I would phrase a report that meant: Going out to pick up people at the hospital, dropping them off to the airport, and then having dinner...With all of that to do, she was hardly home at all.

Yeah, I see what you mean. I guess they were focused on her movements, and that she'd spent a certain amount of time at home before going to dinner, but heck if I know why they stated it that way. :td:

I have always meant "did she hop" as an unbelievable thought. She can only move her feet 2" max. She completes the hop just where she intended to land....and succeeds in doing that landing on one tiptoe... Then, with no forward movement or leverage from her arms (as diver's always do), she does a one tip-toed header?

You know, you and I might not could have managed it, but that certainly doesn't mean that she couldn't have, or didn't.

I don't know how many prints should be there. The thing is, there were no other prints, and the dust wasn't disturbed and that's a circumstance which simply can't be staged.

You know, thinking about that kind of reminds of when in the Zimmerman trial, that pathologist who'd autopsied Martin's body was essentially stating that the only way to know precisely how long Martin lived after the gunshot or if he could have moved- or spoke at all, would be if in the name of science, a researcher shot a number of people, observed what does and does not happen, and establish a consensus and uh...we can't do that!

Well, we also can't take a person and throw them over that balcony and allow them to hang so we can see what does or doesn't happen, either!

I remember that path's answer to the question of how long Martin lived: "There's only one person who knows that in this world." Now, despite that he was a lousy witness, he spoke the damned truth right there! I also recall one of the prosecutors stating that "there's only two people who know what happened; one's dead and the other is a liar." Profound.

Anyway, forgive me as I digressed.....

Reg, you posted a good link back in Dec. 12. Pg. 2 of the thread with a sound bite of an interview with Nina. That has some good information in it and I can't seem to bring it forward. Can you please post it again currently? Thanks !

Hey, that link vanished! :unsure2:

I don't know why, but I can't get it to post.

Edited by regi

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Vincennes

Thanks for trying! I couldn't seem to grab it at all ! I have been thinking though that I have not done a good job at explaining myself lately.

Reg, you posted a question to me:

I agree with all you said.... So that means, there has to be another explanation!... All of those people appear and have sounded to be far to real to be denied and I think they also want to know..~~~~ So if not them....Then it is a question of logic who ~~~~ or what ~~~

What I meant was we have been going over the same ground. Maybe, the truth is in an entirely different area and there is another source of suspects?

Also, when I posted the differences in the autopsy report regarding people and their actions and locations. I think there is plenty of evidence on 7/12 Jonah, Rebecca and Adam, went out to dinner until 10:00 pm. What I see here in this again is sloppy police reporting. The fact it carried forward into the autopsy is really telling. The autopsy is an important document. It should have been as correct as possible. At the time it was complete this had not been ruled a suicide. So, it should have been expected that it would be taken into court evidence. I think where the victim is the last hours before she died is important enough to be worded correctly. Sloppy, sloppy.

Here's another link I found interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIE_MbeVOzQ

It is a Dr. Phil full length. There are a couple of things I had never heard.

1) There is an audio clip of the 911 call from the house right after Max fell. It is Rebecca's sister, the kid seems pretty genuine and pretty shaken and she says she is calling because Rebecca is trying to do CPR.!

Antilles, that was one thing you and I agreed on. No CPR, No Rebecca! You can hear the girl talking a little to Rebecca. I think it's genuine.

2) Later in the show Dina S. brings up the points of Max couldn't have gone over without being lifted......and.....

3) The marks on the balcony rail. Not marks, grooves.

Antilles, you pointed that out early on and it didn't get picked up on. You are right and Dina is stating it the same way you did. Those grooves did not get made by a kid running his skate along that rail.

4) Dina also says that the doctors in the hospital were the first to question Max's injuries as not consistent with the fall. She actually says they told her that a call to Children's Protective Services by them should be expected.

Just some interesting things.

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Antilles

It was interesting listening to that interview. You'd need to have those statements made by doctors etc verified but let's say they are kosher. Then absolutely something else happened the night Max died that involved more than that tiny little boy turning into Tarzan and crashing to his death.

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Regi

Well, the first thing I noticed was how Zahau's sister, Mary, expressed disgust that Dina was pointing the finger, and now look who's finger pointing.....

Hearing her express her disbelief that it was suicide causes me to wonder if that's what Zahau's intention was; that is, to create doubt surrounding her death. I don't know, but that entered my mind.

Mary's husband, Doug, seemed to talk a lot, but he said nothing of substance.

My overall opinion is that Mary isn't asking the right questions.

She said that Zahau wasn't allowed to visit Max at the hospital, and I think she's misinterpreting that circumstance. According to Dina, she had restrictions in place re: Zahau's contact with her son, so it seems to me, that- and considering the circumstances- it wouldn't have been appropriate that Zahau be at the hospital during such a critical time.

Her attorney, Ann Bremner came across to me as a typical attorney. In reference to the incident with Max, she stated "He actually went over that lower part." Well, she can't know that! She could say that that's what she thinks or believes, but she stated it as a fact!

She spoke of circumstantial evidence and pointed out that there were no gouges in the railing before, but there were after. Well, that also could indicate staging, but of course, she wouldn't suggest such a thing!

I'd find her more credible if she didn't dismiss the incident with Max.

My overall opinion of her? She's a suck up.

I was very impressed with that forensic pathologist, Judy Melinek. She thoroughly explained her rationale, and she's decisive. :tu:

Ultimately, re: manner of Max's death, she said there wasn't a single scenario she could come up with for 'accident'. Of course, that leaves only one alternative.

To the contrary, Wecht blabbered on about "a dog... a scooter... soccer balls..and "6 year old boys jumping and leaping."

What I got from what he said was that he doesn't know how it happened and he's not surprised that it happened, but regardless, he'd rule undetermined. :no:

Mary asked why no one talked to Zahau about the the event with Max when they had the chance. Well, Jonah and Dina were busy being devastated over their son's critical condition, but when Zahau picked up Nina from the airport, she immediately asked Zahau about what happened, but it was Zahau who wouldn't talk about it. Zahau ignored Nina's text, and later, ignored Nina at the door.

Hello?

As I recall from her interview (that I can't link to :td: ) Nina said that the doctor didn't express his concerns re: the nature of Max's injuries until later in the day of Zahau's death.

(Btw, it was the doctor who reported to Children's Protective Services, not Dina. Doctors are required by law to report suspicious injuries to police and in the case of children, also report to Protective Services.)

I remember that Zahau had been aware that CPS wanted to speak with her, so why wouldn't Zahau (my angle is suicide) have provided CPS the information that they needed?

About the incident with Max, Mary said that the only other person who knows what happened is dead. Well, her younger sister was also there and I assume she's still alive, but she seemed to suggest that there could have been someone else there. :unsure2:

Zahau never said that anyone else was there and if there was, then why doesn't she think Zahau would have ever said so? What about the younger sister? It doesn't make any sense.

Also, in reference to the incident with Max, she described Zahau as telling her that "it was a bad day". If that's essentially what Zahau had to say about it, then it's an understatement that that's a very strange way to characterize a traumatic event!

Edited by regi
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Vincennes

Well, the first thing I noticed was how Zahau's sister, Mary, expressed disgust that Dina was pointing the finger, and now look who's finger pointing.....

Hearing her express her disbelief that it was suicide causes me to wonder if that's what Zahau's intention was; that is, to create doubt surrounding her death. I don't know, but that entered my mind.

Mary's husband, Doug, seemed to talk a lot, but he said nothing of substance.

I agree! Although I do think the Zahau's motivation now is strictly that they are offended by Dina's finger pointing. I don't think money is a motivator here. Re. was Rebecca's intention to create doubt pertaining to the circumstances of her death........Interesting !!! Although everyone, even Jonah's friends seem to indicate she was pretty easy going and would not have been the type to add to Jonah's pain... but that does not dismiss your idea. Maybe feelings of guilt over road that and she didn't mean to cause Jonah pain...She was covering for herself. If she did know CPS was going to question her. ..could she have thought she was reducing Jonah's pain by eliminating herself?

My overall opinion is that Mary isn't asking the right questions.

She said that Zahau wasn't allowed to visit Max at the hospital, and I think she's misinterpreting that circumstance. According to Dina, she had restrictions in place re: Zahau's contact with her son, so it seems to me, that- and considering the circumstances- it wouldn't have been appropriate that Zahau be at the hospital during such a critical time. -

I agree.

Her attorney, Ann Bremner came across to me as a typical attorney. In reference to the incident with Max, she stated "He actually went over that lower part." Well, she can't know that! She could say that that's what she thinks or believes, but she stated it as a fact!

She spoke of circumstantial evidence and pointed out that there were no gouges in the railing before, but there were after. Well, that also could indicate staging, but of course, she wouldn't suggest such a thing!

I'd find her more credible if she didn't dismiss the incident with Max.

My overall opinion of her? She's a suck up.

I've seen Ann Bremner a lot on night time talk and I can't remember if I liked her or not. :blush:

I did also like the pathologist. I agreed with most of what she said. I can hardly see that those mark on the stair rail could have been anything but inflicted. I wonder if there isn't specialist out there who could match those up with the skateboard to show which part of the board/wheels/ impacted the railing and get an angle of he impact. That rail is about 9" over Max's head. So it seems to me Max would have really had to reach up and still have force necessary to impact like that.

I also see the abrasions to Max's back seem to be a pattern that matches the railing and bannister. IMO it would take a heck of an impact to cause those. However, if the police theory is right, could he have swung from the chandelier, as they say, like a monkey, turned in falling and impacted the other side of the staircase with his back as he was falling?

Zahau never said that anyone else was there and if there was, then why doesn't she think Zahau would have ever said so? What about the younger sister? It doesn't make any sense.

Also, in reference to the incident with Max, she described Zahau as telling her that "it was a bad day". If that's essentially what Zahau had to say about it, then it's an understatement that that's a very strange way to characterize a traumatic event!

Also, agreed. I have trouble with the fact Dina said that she didn't seem to want to talk about it at all. My mouth would have been going like a motorboat! Unless, unless, this goes back to your earlier theory. Unless she had already been informed CPS was coming and she knew she had to watch what she said. :whistle: . Antilles posted that the dr statement they were going to call CPS would have to be verified and it would. The question would then become, if verified, when did they bring that up?

I missed responding to Rebecca's physical capabilities

I agree on that post too. Everything seems to also indicate Rebecca was in pretty good physical shape and worked out regularly. (Not that I am not in just as good shape myself ~~~LOL~~~~) What she could do might seem really impossible to me. However, I will now bring into this I found on thing in Ann Rule's book. The height of the balcony rail. She says it was 36 - 42" and I think normally outside railings are a little higher. Rebecca was only 5'2"-3" tall. If it were the 42", she would also face Max's center of gravity issue without arms forward to overcome it..

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Regi

Re. was Rebecca's intention to create doubt pertaining to the circumstances of her death........Interesting !!!

Well, it's an interesting notion. I mean, I think it's possible she wouldn't want her family to believe she'd committed suicide, but I'm not sure she'd actually be thinking along those lines.

My overall impression about the circumstances of her death has always been that it showed determination.

I remember a death near where I live. A young man chained a cinder block to his ankles and jumped off a bridge over a lake. Passersby in vehicles had witnessed the situation- or at least witnessed his jump- and alerted authorities, and divers quickly found his body precisely where witnesses indicated he'd jumped. I remember my first thought was that he was determined.

In this case, the scene was elaborate. Those rope wrappings were excessive; the knots weren't complicated, they were simple, common knots. Ankles tied, wrists tied behind her back....

I think she used a gag for a couple of possible reasons; either she wanted to muffle any possible sounds, or (I know this might sound strange), but maybe it was somehow a comfort.

We can only speculate about certain aspects, but the main thing is, there's no evidence that there was involvement of anyone else, and there's no rationale that anyone else would stage the scene the way it was, and like I've said about the dust on the balcony, that's one circumstance that definitely couldn't have been staged.

I think Zahau's family should consult another forensic pathologist to get another opinion re: manner of death.

Realize, Wecht didn't rule out suicide. Even though he said he "strongly leaned" toward homicide, he obviously wouldn't lean strong enough, and if he did, then he'd have to completely discount (what I think is) compelling evidence to the contrary.

I wonder if there isn't specialist out there who could match those up with the skateboard to show which part of the board/wheels/ impacted the railing and get an angle of he impact. That rail is about 9" over Max's head. So it seems to me Max would have really had to reach up and still have force necessary to impact like that.

The scooter had paint transfer on the tire and I found that to be a very odd location because I don't know how that's possible if it's related to the incident, which apparently, it was.

I don't know of any damage (scuffs showing transfer) to any other part of the banister and I don't know how/where/when the tire could have made such contact.

I have trouble with the fact Dina said that she didn't seem to want to talk about it at all. My mouth would have been going like a motorboat! Unless, unless, this goes back to your earlier theory. Unless she had already been informed CPS was coming and she knew she had to watch what she said. :whistle: . Antilles posted that the dr statement they were going to call CPS would have to be verified and it would. The question would then become, if verified, when did they bring that up?

(Motorboat...I get a kick out of your sense of humor!)

Yes, I would expect that she would have wanted to express everything that had happened! I would expect that anyone would.

I thought it was somewhat strange that Mary- who was apparently very close with Zahau, also seemed to have so little info. about Max's incident. (I know mary and Zahau spoke several times since the incident and before Zahau's death.)

I also thought it was somewhat against human nature that- according to Mary- Zahau didn't feel any guilt about the incident with Max. Even if it were an accident, I would expect there to be some guilt.

It was Nina, Dina's sister who said in that interview that Zahau wouldn't talk about the incident involving Max.

I remember a report from an investigator (possibly from CPS...I don't remember) who spoke to a physician treating Max and the phys. voiced his concern about Max's injuries and it seems it was within that same document that mentioned about CPS notifying Zahau. ...I'll look for that doc.

In that interview, it seems that Nina had said that it was that Wednesday that the physician spoke to the family about his concern.

Also in that interview, Nina said that she and Dina later spoke to the ME who told them that he highly doubted that Max could have spoken after his injuries...that he didn't think it would have been possible.

Everything seems to also indicate Rebecca was in pretty good physical shape and worked out regularly. (Not that I am not in just as good shape myself ~~~LOL~~~~) What she could do might seem really impossible to me. However, I will now bring into this I found on thing in Ann Rule's book. The height of the balcony rail. She says it was 36 - 42" and I think normally outside railings are a little higher. Rebecca was only 5'2"-3" tall. If it were the 42", she would also face Max's center of gravity issue without arms forward to overcome it..

Well, I don't know which it was...36 or 42". The autopsy report states that the distance from the railing to the knot in the neck ligature w/tension was 110", which would place feet 26 1/2" above the ground.

Zahau was 63 1/2".

Yes, per Mary, Zahau was a "health nut."

Re: center of gravity, in Max's case, it's in consideration of an accidental occurrance, and in Zahau's, it's in consideration that it was deliberate, so in Zahau's case, I think the element of determination figures heavily into the likelihood/probability of it having occurred.

Edited by regi
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Vincennes

I have to say that when I reply to your posts, I sometimes feel like, quit bothering me with the facts. :w00t: !

Well, it's an interesting notion. I mean, I think it's possible she wouldn't want her family to believe she'd committed suicide, but I'm not sure she'd actually be thinking along those lines.

My overall impression about the circumstances of her death has always been that it showed determination.

I remember a death near where I live. A young man chained a cinder block to his ankles and jumped off a bridge over a lake. Passersby in vehicles had witnessed the situation- or at least witnessed his jump- and alerted authorities, and divers quickly found his body precisely where witnesses indicated he'd jumped. I remember my first thought was that he was determined.

In this case, the scene was elaborate. Those rope wrappings were excessive; the knots weren't complicated, they were simple, common knots. Ankles tied, wrists tied behind her back....

I think she used a gag for a couple of possible reasons; either she wanted to muffle any possible sounds, or (I know this might sound strange), but maybe it was somehow a comfort.

We can only speculate about certain aspects, but the main thing is, there's no evidence that there was involvement of anyone else, and there's no rationale that anyone else would stage the scene the way it was, and like I've said about the dust on the balcony, that's one circumstance that definitely couldn't have been staged.

I think Zahau's family should consult another forensic pathologist to get another opinion re: manner of death.

Realize, Wecht didn't rule out suicide. Even though he said he "strongly leaned" toward homicide, he obviously wouldn't lean strong enough, and if he did, then he'd have to completely discount (what I think is) compelling evidence to the contrary.]

I have read support for the "determined" analysis. I have read that she was a very determined person. If she started something she would carry it through. I also think your interpretation of the implication of the scarf around her neck might be for comfort is a viable psych rationalization. Makes me think of the "Thunder Shirts" out there now for dogs. I think I have to say, "possible."

[The scooter had paint transfer on the tire and I found that to be a very odd location because I don't know how that's possible if it's related to the incident, which apparently, it was.

I don't know of any damage (scuffs showing transfer) to any other part of the banister and I don't know how/where/when the tire could have made such contact.]

My first thought is the grooves are deep which tends to lead me to someone might have purposely whack the scooter on the railing. Paint chips on the wheel would also seem to indicate a pretty hard contact. Interestingly, I think those chips could be used to position the scooter for a determination of the angle of the contact. Initially my response would be that there was no time for Rebecca to do that before they called 911 but I have to wonder now if there was time for her to do it after they took Max in the ambulance. Jonah went with Max. Rebecca did not and at that point might have had an opportunity.

Yes, I would expect that she would have wanted to express everything that had happened! I would expect that anyone would.

I thought it was somewhat strange that Mary- who was apparently very close with Zahau, also seemed to have so little info. about Max's incident. (I know mary and Zahau spoke several times since the incident and before Zahau's death.)

I also thought it was somewhat against human nature that- according to Mary- Zahau didn't feel any guilt about the incident with Max. Even if it were an accident, I would expect there to be some guilt.]

Mary seems to have little information seems to me to also be true. They were close and I would have told my family immediately what went wrong; this is I would have told them if I didn't do anything wrong. However, If I did not it would be because I couldn't even tell them I had done something wrong.

[it was Nina, Dina's sister who said in that interview that Zahau wouldn't talk about the incident involving Max.

I remember a report from an investigator (possibly from CPS...I don't remember) who spoke to a physician treating Max and the phys. voiced his concern about Max's injuries and it seems it was within that same document that mentioned about CPS notifying Zahau. ...I'll look for that doc.]

Only negative thing I have to say here is that Dina didn't like Rebecca and Nina's perception of her might have been colored by those feelings. I believed Nina in that audio interview but I did think she repeatedly put put Rebecca in a bad light.

Well, I don't know which it was...36 or 42". The autopsy report states that the distance from the railing to the knot in the neck ligature w/tension was 110", which would place feet 26 1/2" above the ground.

Zahau was 63 1/2".Yes, per Mary, Zahau was a "health nut."

Re: center of gravity, in Max's case, it's in consideration of an accidental occurrence, and in Zahau's, it's in consideration that it was deliberate, so in Zahau's case, I think the element of determination figures heavily into the likelihood/probability of it having occurred.]

This just has to remain a maybe for both of them. However, it's irritation the police didn't seem to put that into their consideration. I think the stick drawing with the bannister coming almost to the kid's waist proves that. Why, why would you go to the trouble to animate and then not show measurements. The measurement of the distance to the chandelier from the rail would seem to also be important. The sloppy work they did is just so evident again and again. Makes me think of JBR case, they have always said part of the issue was that Colorado Springs police had almost no experience in investigating that type of crime scene. I think Coronado Beach probably had about that much of even less. They did call for help from another department but how many pieces of evidence were lost before they got there?

PS I'm not trying to steal your posts by inserting myself in there. I'm trying to reply to each of your comments and, obviously, I'm having trouble doing so. Now I have myself in the middle of them. :no: I just wanted to add this so when you and Antilles might read this and think, "What the heck is she doing???" I'll get it, I swear I will! :sk

Edited by Duncansmom

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Vincennes

(Regi, now I think you are thinking, " I just get her to admit to some sense and here she goes again!) :rolleyes:

Just finished reading the Ann Rule book, "Two Strange Deaths in Coronado." I wasn't really comfortable with her style of writing. It left me unsure if her purpose was to relate facts or to tell a "story.:

I have a favorite American History writer who does create stories out of historical events. However, he identifies and verifies each of the actual historical facts with dates/places and times and sources with footnotes.

Stating, of course, the "conversations" are strictly his interpretations of what the characters might have said. He comes up with some fascinating stories and you know where he get his stuff.

What I couldn't pin down in her writing was which were facts, hearsay or just her interpretation.

There are, however, a couple of things that really did bring up some questions in my mind..

1) There do seem to be two different accounts of the evening of 7/12. That's the dinner with "Howard" we were just discussing in the post. Adam says he and Becky picked Jonah, Howard, then

took Howard to the airport, then had dinner (The 3 of them). Adam did go on to say Jonah showed him his room at McDonald House. He and Becky were home by about 8:00 pm. Jonah says the four of them had dinner then, he went to the hotel, and "Becky" drove Howard to the airport. He doesn't specifically say where Adam was after dinner. These statements were made so soon after Becky's death. They forgot

who was at dinner? That's Odd. Maybe the police clarified in other statements, maybe not.

2) This account mentions something else I had totally forgotten about and will never again find a link to it because it was really early after Becky's death. I clearly remember

that the police said they found pornography specifically some oriental pornography on Becky's computer. That came out so early I actually wonder now if it was released on

purpose to discredit Becky. W

We have also discussed the fact that there was pornography was on Adams cell phone. This was emphasized by the fact that was what Adam told the police in their first interview.

He went to the guest house and watched pornography on his phone. Ms. Rule says that the police thought that was an odd statement to spit out without even a wince.

The pornography was accessed the evening Adam arrived and sometime the next day/evening when Becky died. Yet Adam stated to police he was never in the main house until the morning he found Becky.

Sure looks like a pastime that Adam likes. It certainly seems like that computer history should also have times on it. It would be very unlikely to think Becky was pulling up porn right before

she gets ready to kill herself. However, we do know from other statements Adam made that is his style.

3) Becky's long hair was partially under the shirt or bindings tied around her neck. All women that I know with long hair have a habit of putting their hand behind their neck and flipping their hair out to loosen it.

They do it constantly. IMO this screams that she wasn't in control when the bindings or shirt was applied.

4) Jonah's attorney/friend Paul Pfingst being at the crime scene behind the yellow tape with one of the detectives! Since Ms. Rule says several times there are pictures of Pfingst there with his arm around the detectives shoulders, I feel pretty certain this is based on facts. That's HUGE! That should have never been allowed. It does, however, indicate that Jonah had access into inner police circles.

5) I know this is based on hearsay but Ms. Rule also takes about several times after Rebecca's death Jonah, seemed on edge. Two unidentified men accompanied him to Becky's funeral. Bodyguards? Although this reeks of hearsay, it brought back to me some early research I did on Jonah. He is not a chemist. No med student background either. He is an attorney. This article questioned his rise to millions. It seems he was more like a Bill Gates. Didn't do the product development himself, just put the company together with himself as CEO with the actual ones who developed the product under him and he was in the process of doing it again.

Taking in another successful product into the company, again, with him as the Grand PooBa. That was resented by some in the company. Which brings up the fact that he had recently sold a good deal of stock after a bonus and transferred the money into trust funds for his kids. Sad, little Max didn't get his portion. Selling stock off like that in large quantities usually causes the value to drop. Could someone have resented the fact he received the largest bonus and then lowered the value on theirs? Did Jonah have a real enemy out there?

6) Jonah put the house for sale in August 2012 and would not allow access to it by investigators acting on Rebecca's behalf. Why? He gave "lip service" asking that the investigation be reopened. Then wouldn't let them in? He said they could only go if they had a police escort and, of course, the police refused to escort them. This makes no sense what so ever. If I had his money, I would have locked that house up tight and joined my investigators with theirs to at least find out what happened to my son.

Adam does seem to have a loose cog in his personality. When you screw all the screws down, it just doesn't come together real tight. :td:. His statements both the recorded and the ones in the book are just a little left of center. That brings me why was her there so immediately. Other things I have read were that he went to all family functions but wasn't really that close to Adam. What was his motivation to jump on a plane from Memphis to California instantly. At that point, other reports show they didn't even know Max was so critical. Max's father didn't fly out....Adam does and does it immediately. Family ties? Maybe. But could it be he also had a thing for Rebecca ??? In my experience anything that moves a man that fast is usually a woman! Did he see a chance to be with her???

Edited by Duncansmom

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Vincennes

Antilles, where are you with all of this yakity smack...... You always come in just bottom line, as in "this is the only thing to make sense to me, no Max, no Rebecca" and I appreciate that. we missed discussing some of your most valid points; e.g., .the banister grooves! ...... We were both in agreement re Max's cause of death might have been Rebecca's anything new from your perspective?

I feel very lost in this because Ann Rule's book did talk about the "boxes" of evidence that they had received and still talked about, "things being withheld." We chase small questions that might very well be those boxes of evidences...but the grooves on the banister rail after Max's fall.....I think....IMPORTANT !

Edited by Duncansmom

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Antilles

DM, I'm a bit behind you because I haven't read Ann Rule's book.

I remember the info about porn being found on Rebecca's computer. You're right about that.

I am reading your posts and they are very logical and you raise good questions.

The banister business - not the child. The BS about CPR being performed, the supposed bruises and marks on Max's body inconsistent with his fall. I have always suspected and I think I've always maintained that I believe Rebecca was involved in Max's death. And that is the reason for Rebecca's death.

If you read all the statements that you have set out, then these people either didn't know each other or went to peripatetic dinners with strangers who had the same names as the people involved in the affair. It's just bizarre.

I don't think there's a lot of truth coming out of the Zahau family. The cops really didn't get as much out of the little sister as they should. I mean, the whole police standard of investigation has been sloppy. That seems to happen a lot when rich or influential people are involved. If there's info regarding both deaths that has been hushed up, then we can only speculate as to what that might be. Obviously, the injuries to Max's body are one instance.

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Vincennes

DM, I'm a bit behind you because I haven't read Ann Rule's book.

I remember the info about porn being found on Rebecca's computer. You're right about that.

I am reading your posts and they are very logical and you raise good questions.

The banister business - not the child. The BS about CPR being performed, the supposed bruises and marks on Max's body inconsistent with his fall. I have always suspected and I think I've always maintained that I believe Rebecca was involved in Max's death. And that is the reason for Rebecca's death.

If you read all the statements that you have set out, then these people either didn't know each other or went to peripatetic dinners with strangers who had the same names as the people involved in the affair. It's just bizarre.

I don't think there's a lot of truth coming out of the Zahau family. The cops really didn't get as much out of the little sister as they should. I mean, the whole police standard of investigation has been sloppy. That seems to happen a lot when rich or influential people are involved. If there's info regarding both deaths that has been hushed up, then we can only speculate as to what that might be. Obviously, the injuries to Max's body are one instance.

Your comment regarding the sister really tweaked a impression I had reading the book. As I said, there really aren't many verified facts in it. One of those was regarding the sister. She had arrived the day of the incident and was planning on staying 2 weeks. The day after the incident Rebecca hustles her right back to the airport and it seemed like she did it as if she was in a hurry. This seemed to be verifiable because their were quoted texts between Rebecca and her sister from the airport. The sister is a kid and Rebecca seemed concerned about her getting to the right gate. Reminded her which gate it was. The kid also had a 1 hour layover in another airport that Rebecca texted her about. You are worried she can't handle airports and you didn't even wait to get her on a direct flight? Why didn't she take her to the gate? Sounded like she just dropped the kid off and then worried about it. It was something that just struck me as I read it. What's her hurry? She was already committed to pick up Adam at the airport. No actual flight times were stated but as I read it I thought, I would have probably just parked and stayed at the airport. And your right, nothing much is mentioned as information coming from the sister. Was that the reason for Rebecca's hurry? She was getting the sister out of town as quickly as she could so that she wouldn't be as accessible to make statements. At that point, Rebecca hadn't been told of Max's worsening condition. So she might not have even been thinking about police involvement. However, Jonah would be involved and would be asking questions even it things calmed down. I'm saying, the girl was in the shower, as she stated, so she really didn't see what happened. Then the accident and Rebecca quickly tells the kid "what happened" enough for the ambulance drivers but you know, kids that age are always going to come up with some information you don't want out there and do it at exactly the wrong time!. I think she was in a hurry, she got the kid "out of Dodge."

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Antilles

DM, I don't know if I'm way off the mark with this but I have been thinking about it.

What if it was the kid sister who was involved in Max's death and not Rebecca?

Obviously, the kid sister was got out of the way. I absolutely agree with you on that point.

You know, that could just as well explain the crap about CPR, the hysterical phone call, the sister's fast exit and Rebecca committing suicide.

It's just a thought.

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CuriousLittleOne

message_complete.jpg

i cant stop thinking about it.... the door message.

i can only think of it as a last call for help, can YOU (whoever finds her, medics/friends/anyone) save her, sounds like she maybe didnt want to do it... and was hoping that someone would find her before it was too late.

i believe the whole elabourate knots and rope were to make the suicide (and i believe it was a suicide) foolproof.

"SHE (Rebecca) SAVED HIM (Max, from the pain of life/seeing her suicide, being hurt) / CAN YOU (JS) SAVE HER (Rebecca)"

on another note:

http://www.websleuth...d.php?p=8607229

the above link contains a very good breakdown of the door message.

http://www.crimescen...nce.autopsy.php

contains a autopsy of a woman who was murdered and the hanging was staged to appear to be a suicide..

credit where credit is due, the following images are from:http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8360007

f3i1jd.jpg

some people have said the back scrapings are from struggling in the wiccer chair (come on wiccar will hardly cause scrapings like that!) or from stucco wall coverings, im thinking gravel would cause that, particularly being dragged through it.....

126dwnp.jpg

Edited by CuriousLittleOne
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CuriousLittleOne

THERE WAS EVIDENCE OF A STRUGGLE.... IGNORED BY POLICE INVESTIGATORS

  • There were paint splatters on her body and the noose
  • A chair was overturned in "hanging" bedroom
  • There were four contusions on her head
  • Screams reportedly heard by neighbors
  • Her arms were tied so she couldn't fight back.
  • Her legs were bound so she couldn't run away
  • There was clear plastic tape residue on her leg
  • She was gagged so she couldn't scream again
  • The noose was placed over her hair
  • A t-shirt was wrapped around the noose
  • Candleholder overturned on first floor
  • Two knives found in the "hanging" bedroom. Why 2?
  • Two paintbrushes found in the "hanging" bedroom. Why 2?
  • Abrasion on her finger
  • Blood on her body
  • Evidence of possible manual strangulation
  • Injuries inconsistent with vertical hanging
  • Her feet were caked with mud though there were not any muddy footprints inside the house
  • A message in the third person was written on the bedroom door of the crime scene. "SHE SAVED HIM CAN YOU SAVE HER" Why would a suicidal person leave a note with the words “her” and “she” instead of using “I” and “me”?
  • There were several unidentified fingerprints at the scene, Yet not everyone of interest (not living in the house) was fingerprinted. Not all of the DNA found at the scene was tested.

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