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Vincennes

Spreckel Mansion Death/Suicide

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CuriousLittleOne

door was open, how much open? i know full well that a closed door can open itself ( expecially if the wind from the open baclony door managed to open it..

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Vincennes

door was open, how much open? i know full well that a closed door can open itself ( expecially if the wind from the open baclony door managed to open it..

I have never read if they originally found the bedroom door open or if it was closed. Remember the type of LE investigation we are talking about here. :no:

There is a question if the balcony doors were open or if they were closed behind her. There are photos that seem to contradict each other. Heck there are photos that Susie posted recently that contradict whether there was even a rope there or if it was moved from original position !

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CuriousLittleOne

i thought the only note left was the one on the door "she saved him can he save her" , am i wrong in that???? were there more? i know there were journals.......

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Vincennes

We agree here I think that everything about this case is odd. I read an article this morning by a crime scene author who said one of the things that makes this so hard is that you can't believe anything you have been told. There has been so much disinformation and misinformation released.

One thing just struck me though. Susie, I think you agree with me the time Jonah knew how serious Max really was has probably been "adjusted." Now, if you take that to the fact he had dinner that night with Rebecca and I think he even says he went back to the house to pick up clothing from maybe 8 - 10:00pm. Why would he choose to advise her how serious Max was at 12:30 a.m. via VOICEMAIL ! Even if he had just found out, that's a pretty heartless way to tell someone the news, don't you think? Why wouldn't he just say, call me back ? Was he setting up both an alibi that he wasn't there at the time she died like Jodi Arias did ? And, also setting up a reason for her sudden despondency ?

The police have, of course, been very quick to set her time of death by the fact that call was picked up.....but even they admit there is no way to prove Rebecca is the one who picked it up.

Here, again, every time I kick things around, I come up with Jonah's involvement. The one with what the police stated right from the beginning had such a solid alibi for his whereabouts.

i thought the only note left was the one on the door "she saved him can he save her" , am i wrong in that???? were there more? i know there were journals.......

AS far as I know there was only one note. The "She saved him etc" on the door

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CuriousLittleOne

i thought i was going loopy for a bit there Vincennes ,thanks for clearing it up x

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Vincennes

I just came across this link re. the abilities of Jonah's publicity team: http://www.cbsnews.c...c-masterstroke/

Manipulating the media to take the heat off where he did not want the focus.

If you toggle the link in it "search warrant documents." That will take you to the actual search warrant which is about the only place I have been able to pull it up. It was right there on line when it was disclosed....Now very hard to get to.

Susie, you were absolutely right regarding rigor ! If you read through that search warrant, the Detective states specifically that the responding EMS techs noted rigor had sat in at the time they first got to the scene !!!! I went back and looked at the photos. Rebecca's knees are more than just a little bent......The have an aerial of her body on the grass and they are very bent, both of her legs !!! I would say about a 40 degree angle.

Edited by Vincennes
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CuriousLittleOne

so, are we saying she had to be in the position she was found in (i.e lying down) for a good few hours before being "thrown"/ dangled down from the bacloney.

thus rigor needed to have settled..

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Vincennes

so, are we saying she had to be in the position she was found in (i.e lying down) for a good few hours before being "thrown"/ dangled down from the bacloney.

thus rigor needed to have settled..

That is what it sounds like happened. She had sent text messages to her sister that night which, unless someone faked them, was about the last time anyone heard from her. If you go with the time as being from 10:30 to 11:30 pm. The time the neighbors reported hearing a scream(s ?) and loud music, there would be enough time for rigor to have sat in.

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susieice

Right Vincennes. I would have to guess that her legs were bent when rigor set in. Is there a record of the 911 call Adam made somewhere? I haven't come across it in my searches.

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CuriousLittleOne

SO..... ANYONE mind making up a timeline then,..... so the perp had to have been in the house long enough for rigor (and presumibly livor) to set in ...... thats hours, and then think (hey , lets chuck her over the balcony!

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Vincennes

Here is a clip of Adam's 911 call. http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqIWsLIpSjWoAuWj7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTB2Mm9jNG1iBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDVjE0OQRncG9zAzE-?p=adam+shacknai+911+call&vid=494aa0947bfddacb6365d4214ba476e3&l=4%3A46&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DV.5006889324643950%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DnyGs0d2d-ck&tit=Adam+Shacknai+911+call&c=0&sigr=11a0enhba&sigt=10m3n70vp&age=0&&tt=b

I'm not certain if it is the entire call. There seem to be to places it stops almost like a disconnect and then starts up again. He says, I just woke up, multiple times. I believe if you find the entire clip he says it three times. Interesting since his bed in the guest house hadn't been slept in.

There was also a clip of Xenia's 911 call on Max played on one of the Dr. Phil shows. That is an interesting call also. However, I've never been able to get back to that particular show. One of things in that clip that is curious is that a minute or so into it, the dog starts barking as if he has just been let in but you can hear Rebecca with Max and Xenia is on the phone. ??? What surprised the dog seems to be unclear.

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Vincennes

SO..... ANYONE mind making up a timeline then,..... so the perp had to have been in the house long enough for rigor (and presumibly livor) to set in ...... thats hours, and then think (hey , lets chuck her over the balcony!

The timeline is the difficult thing since Jonah/Adam/ and Rebeccas dinner dates and times have been switched in the various reports. They switch up the evening of the 11th with the evening of the 12th. Why they would be investigating a timeline 24 hrs. before Rebecca's hanging is ???? curious in itself. However, IMO this benefits Jonah greatly and covers the fact he did go back to the mansion to "get clothes" and things after dinner and before he checked into the hotel. Jonah has time missing there between about 8:00 am and 1:00 am. At 1:00 am on the 13th he shows up at Ronald McDonald house.

Dina says she went to talk to Rebecca at about 10:00 pm. The light was on in that bedroom but no one answered the door. Why would the light be on in that bedroom? It was not the master bedroom.

I went back through this thread over the weekend and I noticed one of the posts asked a question regarding what type of porn was accessed on that computer that night. We now know from the last thing that was released that it was of Asian women and bondage.

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susieice

I discussed this again at work today. The 2 hours for rigor to set into facial muscles makes sense in the way we have to treat a person who is deceased. We are told to make sure the mouth is shut and may have to use rolled towels to do so while they are still limp because if it sets in before the undertaker comes, they may need to break the jaw to reset it. Sometimes it is 2 hours before the undertaker gets there. We came to the conclusion that for the legs to be bent after rigor, they would need to have been broken, both of them since they were tied together. They are bent at the knees. That didn't happen.

Good posts Vincennes. If she was found in rigor at 6:30 AM, time of death can be no later than 1:00 AM. Possibly 2.

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Vincennes

I discussed this again at work today. The 2 hours for rigor to set into facial muscles makes sense in the way we have to treat a person who is deceased. We are told to make sure the mouth is shut and may have to use rolled towels to do so while they are still limp because if it sets in before the undertaker comes, they may need to break the jaw to reset it. Sometimes it is 2 hours before the undertaker gets there. We came to the conclusion that for the legs to be bent after rigor, they would need to have been broken, both of them since they were tied together. They are bent at the knees. That didn't happen.

Good posts Vincennes. If she was found in rigor at 6:30 AM, time of death can be no later than 1:00 AM. Possibly 2.

Thanks for all of your research into the rigor aspect. I had never touched on that at all. From what you have brought to this and what I have already suspicioned, I think Rebecca was murdered at about the time of the screams.....Taking into consideration the neighbor's report of screams and Jonah's missing / re-dated dinner "went for clothes" timeline.... IMHO I think Rebecca died between 10:30 and 12:00 pm. IMHO the perv Adam sat watching Asian women porn until he got the high sign from Adam that he was at the hotel. Then Adam either tossed her over...or more probably.... hoisted her up using a rope he had obtained in that interim. There is unidentified substance on the gag in Rebecca's mouth... How long could she have been there alive, hog-tied and gagged and possibly tapped, before Jonah got back to the hotel and Adam finished...Who knows ???

IMO, just like OJ, they might think they have gotten away with it...and Jonah might have paid well to get away with it..... I don't think in the end it looks like Jonah/Adam will get away with any more than it looks like Zimmerman is going to get away with ....

If we can find these errors in the LE reports, others can and will. We all need to send emails to Anne Bremner to thank her for what she is doing. There are those on this thread that have said they (Rebecca's family) are suing for the money. That is so ludicrous. If they were after money, they would have sued Jonah from the getgo and not Nina. They are trying to get to the truth without Jonah's bucks involved in defense but right now I hate to say that he is probably writing Nina blank checks. I am hoping Nina wants to know too what happened to her son and refuses his money.

Edited by Vincennes
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susieice

If Rebecca's family wanted to sue for money they could take Jonah to civil court and I don't think they'd have to reopen the case. Like OJ, they'd just have to show he was responsible for her death. He wouldn't need to have been convicted.

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Caramina

How odd, all went quiet here just after the Wrongful Death Suit was filed by Rebecca's family on Nov 13, 2013 in California

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Gwynbleidd

Very interesting case ..... after reading through a bunch of comments, I'm kinda leaning towards this theory that was written by someone anonymous on one of the links. Makes sense, but so do some other theories. Nevertheless, here it is:

Totally agree, think ex-wife is responsible and hired a hit person to do it. She had the motive, she had the means, she has the temperament, she had access to the house (probably still had a key), lives down the street. Someone wanted to humiliate this poor woman in the worst possible way. The BF had no reason as according to reports was happy in the relationship and certainly would not do anything to jeopardize his business nor reputation. This was a crime of passion.

But he doesn't sound like he's innocent either. All I can say is, that poor boy and the girlfriend!

Edited by pixiii
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Vincennes

Thanks for bringing this topic back. It's one that haunts me.

Totally agree, think ex-wife is responsible and hired a hit person to do it. She had the motive, she had the means, she has the temperament, she had access to the house (probably still had a key), lives down the street. Someone wanted to humiliate this poor woman in the worst possible way. The BF had no reason as according to reports was happy in the relationship and certainly would not do anything to jeopardize his business nor reputation. This was a crime of passion.

I'm also sorry that I've forgotten a lot of my study on what happened but I can say that Nina gave radio interview which is almost an hour long re. her actions and her sister's. (The link is in the thread) I was so into this case at the time I transcribed it, so that I could read it over slowly and decide if what she was saying fit with logic and time frames and IMHO it did. Even her speech pattern was very regular and believable.

The one who had the motive, means and opportunity was Jonah/Adam.

Cara, you mentioned that you had seen input from someone who watched some of the things from a rooftop. That would be very interesting. Love to hear anything you remember from what they said.

Edited by Vincennes
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2-B

I don't know if any of you who followed this thread are into podcasts, but I thought I'd mention that the August 10th episode of The Generation Why podcast covered Rebecca Zahau's death. Likely nothing new, given the hour time constraint, but I thought it was a good discussion. Available on iTunes and on other pod catchers of your choice.

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Vincennes
19 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5440193/Dead-mother-naked-hanging-balcony.html

I'm so glad Rebecca's family are still fighting for the truth to come out in this case.

Thanks for sharing !!!  I hadn't seen anything on this new effort to hold Jonah/Adam responsible and I'm also glad they are still fighting for justice.  One thing that has really bothered me was toward the end of this discussion I think I found a problem with LE's timeline of Jonah/Adam's movements prior to R's death.  There are two reports.  The problem seemed to me to be there was a difference in reporting times some being reported in military time and other references switching to regular time.  It created a gap of a few hours for Jonah.  Now I'm going to have to go back and see if I can possibly still find those reports.

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Vincennes
On ‎11‎/‎13‎/‎2013 at 7:00 AM, Vincennes said:

If I am looking at this correctly. This timeline shows the problem I have mentioned before in Jonah and Adam's whereabouts. I have copied clips from the timeline in blue so you can see a little better what is messed up here and it's not just this timeline. The police reports (and I think purposely mix up the evenings of the 11th and the 12th which allow Jonah to cover his time.

July 11th – mid morning Jonah walks/runs to the gym for a workout. July 11th – at about 10:00 AM Max’s fall from the 2nd floor to the foyer happens.

Jonah left to work out only as "mid morning." So what time exactly did he leave? Mid morning to me would pretty much be 10:00 a.m. which is pretty much when Max fell.

July 11th – Howard Lubner Jonah’s friend from PV Arizona also arrives some time on Monday.

Now, we have Howard Lubner arriving. What this doesn't mention is that Howard Lubner, Jonah's best friend, is actually Dr. Howard Lubner, a practicing physician. To me this is important because if Jonah had a physican there with him, then he knew a lot about Max's condition right then and there. Life support machines are not all that hard to read as far as oxygen content, etc. I also firmly believe even if Dr.'s are sometimes hesitant to tell parents how bad a condition is, they would have shared that information with another doctor. Susie, ask your RNs I'm anxious to see if they agree with me on that. Because if Im right, why is Jonah covering the fact that he knew just how bad Max was pretty much from the 11th. This kid's head was separated from his spine. Don't tell me they didn't know he was in a more than grave condition. They could not have put him on life support without knowing the exact position and injuries to his neck. Ask the RNs.

July 12th – at 1:55 AM Jonah attempts to stay at the Ronald McDonald House but it is full. He stays at a nearby hotel instead, the Homestead Inn.

Next we have the 11th continued to the morning of the 12th. Where is Howard ? Where did he stay ?

Per this timeline, Howard has been there the 11th through the 12th. The evening (6:00 pm.) They pick him up with Jonah and take him to the airport then Rebecca, Jonah and Adam have dinner.

July 12th – approx 6:00 PM Adam and Rebecca pick up Jonah and Howard from the hospital. They drop Howard off at the airport.

The problem here is this actually happened the evening of the 11th, not the 12th. Proof below.

July 12th – 7:34 PM outgoing 1 min phone call to Jonah.

An outgoing call to Jonah. Why an outgoing call? Unless they flew to the airport and restaurant. They are at dinner together.

July 12th 7:39 PM incoming 1 min phone call from Adam. July 12th

I guess Adam didn't eat much because he is now calling Rebecca too.

July 12th – at approx 8:00 PM Rebecca and Adam return home to Coronado mansion.

Next we see that maybe they are at dinner. Because they get back to the mansion until 8: pm and Jonah and Adam are with Rebecca at the mansion. This is covered by the fact they have mixed up the evening of the 11th and the evening of the 12th. There were actually two dinners here. One on the 11th after they take Howard to the airport, the other on the 12th, which seems to have happened later and it's questionable if they ate. Rebecca had no food in her stomach other than 3 ccs of a "green substance."

July 12th – 8:06 PM outgoing 27 min phone call to sister Mary July 12th

This would put Rebecca at the mansion the night she died with Adam and Jonah.

Then you have multiple text messages to/from "Rebecca" Well, they are text messages. Were they from Rebecca or just Rebecca's phone ?

July 13 – 12:30 AM Jonah claims he sent a voicemail message to Rebecca stating that Max’s condition was grave and his death was imminent.

July 13th – 12:50 AM allegedly Rebecca retrieves the voicemail message and deletes it. [there is no proof that Rebecca herself retrieved and deleted the voicemail]

No one really hears from Rebecca past that point. This puts doesn't put Jonah back into view until 1:00 p.m. That's ok because there is a time in the police reports. However, it's very hard to determine because those reports also mess up the 11th and the 12th also.

July 13th – at about 1:00 AM Jonah goes to the Ronald McDonald House.

Rebecca is said to have died at about 12:50 p.m. after she retrieved a VM from Jonah ???? Well, per this timeline. He was with her at the mansion until 1:00 p.m. Why the VM ?

Here, I think this is what remained on my mind as an error in where they were when.  I'm not sure I expressed everything clearly and maybe I'm wrong that there's no extra time unaccounted for but it sure seems to me as if there is.   I'd love to know what you think.

Edited by Vincennes
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ouija ouija

In the video in the link I provided, her family's lawyer says that she was sexually assaulted with the handle of the/a knife. That has never been mentioned before, has it?

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Vincennes
14 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

In the video in the link I provided, her family's lawyer says that she was sexually assaulted with the handle of the/a knife. That has never been mentioned before, has it?

No, I'd never heard anything about any DNA before.   

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ouija ouija

At some point menstrual blood was mentioned. Was that, once again, laziness on the part of those investigating who didn't bother to check if the blood came from an assault?

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