Abortions

[BurnSide]

Debate idea by jpalz.

Should Abortions be legal, or should Abortions be illegal? Pretty straight forward. I realise this is a controversial debate so i would like to mature debaters to go at this one in a civil manner please.

Looking for two debaters to show their interest in the debate, and then a coin flip will decide who debates for which side.

This is be a formal, 1 vs 1 debate with 5 body posts as well as an introduction and conclusion from each side. Please state your sources and again, keep it civil.

And please everyone, once the debate is underway do not post in the debate it is for the debaters only.

Edited October 6, 2004 by BurnSide

[fearfulone]

I would like to throw my hat in the ring as the person to debate against the allowance of abortion to be legal...(anti-abortion i suppose).

[BurnSide]

Okay fearfulone, thanks for your interest!

If someone wants to debate against you and debate for allowing abortions, that's fine.

Looking for one more debater.

Edited October 7, 2004 by BurnSide

[fearfulone]

Just to clarify...i will be holding the position that abortion should NOT be legal.

[Velikovsky]

I'm willing to try this out. I'll debate that abortion should be legal. Let me know who goes first and I'll get started.

[BurnSide]

Fantastic!

So there it is.

Fearfulone is debating that abortions should NOT be legal against

Velikovsky who is debating that abortions should be legal.

The debate rules are simple:

1. Each debater will post an indroduction to their side of the arguement, followed by 5 body posts each which you will be marked for countering the opponents arguments, style, persuasiveness of your arguments and relevance to your side, followed by a conclusion post each.

2. No flaming, insulting or harsh language or anything like that. Keep it civil lads.

3. State your sources. Taking information from other sources without referencing them is plaguarism.

The coin toss tells me that FEARFULONE will go first. Please remember to wait until the opponent has posted before continuing with your next post.

Any questions, feel free to PM me about it. Good luck to both debaters!!

[fearfulone]

Just a quick update on this debate...I am leaving town for work through Sunday, therefore, I will not be able to begin with my opening until Monday. I hope this is ok, if not, I am willing to withdraw, but I really would like to debate this, so if at all possible, can we please wait to start until Monday?

[Velikovsky]

I'm fine with waiting until Monday.

[fearfulone]

This is my first debate here on the UM Forum, so if I step outside the rules, I'm sure my opponent will let me know and I will rectify the situation immediately. I ask for your patience. This is my opening statement.

There are many points of view on abortion in our society today. The point of view that in all cases, no matter what the situation, abortion is wrong. The point of view that abortion is wrong, except in some situations. The point of view that abortion is wrong, but we can't force our nation to adhere to that belief, so we allow government funding. And then the point of view that abortion is a woman's "choice" and no matter what, that "choice" must be protected.

Today, abortion is a heated issue in many countries. In the United States in 2003, 53% of people found abortion morally wrong, for those who aren't math majors, that is a majority. That statistic is up 8% from 2001. Source The pro-life groups continue to grow in this country to fight the abortion issue, eventually, it will grow enough to challenge the Roe v. Wade decision in the courts.

So, should abortion be legal? In January of 1973, the Supreme Court ruled, in favor of Norma McCorvey (Roe), that individual states do not have the right to ban abortions and it should be the woman's choice. In 2003, 30 years after this crucial decision, Norma McCorvey filed a lawsuit in federal court to try to over turn their original decision. Source. She was quoted as saying "I long for the day that justice will be done and the burden from all of these deaths will be removed from my shoulders. I want to do everything in my power to help women and their children. The issue is justice for women, justice for the unborn, and justice for what is right." That is pretty damning evidence for the pro-choice crowd who had long hailed Norma McCorvey as their savior.

The US government rules abortion is legal because it fell under the "right to privacy act" in the fourteenth amendment. At the time, the decision affected the laws of 46 states. Source Today, just a couple months ago, the United States government recognizes that the child inside a mother's womb counts as a second death in a murder case. So not only is the murderer charged with killing a woman, but also a child (in the womb), and therefore, is ruled as a double homicide. Why is the US Government contradicting itself? A child in the womb is a murder if someone else does it but if the child's own mother does it, its ok? Let's look at the numbers.

The Center for Bio-Ethical Reform CBR states there are approximately 46 MILLION abortions worldwide in one year. That equals to 126,000 A DAY. 126,000 deaths a day, because a woman wants the "choice" to get rid of a "mistake" (Child). In the United States alone, it is estimated that in 1996, there were 1.3 million children killed in the safety of their mother's wombs. That's 3,561 babies killed in their mother's wombs in ONE DAY. There is much debate about the amount of deaths in iraq, which is very sad that over 1000 soldiers have died there, and their sacrifice will always be remembered, but just to put it in prospective...that's over 1000 US Soldiers dead in a hostile arena over two years...abortion kills 3,561 children in the safety of their mother's womb EVERY DAY.

Let's say you don't believe that abortion is wrong, because it is only a fetus and not a child. Here are some quick scientific facts. A "fetus'" heartbeat begins between the 18th and 25th day (most mother's just barely finding out they are pregnant at this time). Electrical brain waves have been recorded in a "fetus" within forty days. That is a living, breathing, functioning child within the first forty days of conception in a mother's womb. Source

Maybe you use the argument that abortion should be legal because of the large population boom and the poverty level in any given country. Surely it's better to abort a baby rather than have it grow up with no food or shelter? This argument simply does not hold up. In the United States, there is a birth every 8 seconds and a death every 11. There are options besides abortion. A woman could give her child up for adoption. The government could put laws into place and social programs to help pregnant mothers make that decision. The government could make the process easier and maybe even offer tax breaks for those who decide against killing their child.

Let's discuss now the effect an abortion has on the mother. "Despite the use of local anesthesia, a full 97% of women having abortions reported experiencing pain during the procedure, which more than a third described as "intense," "severe" or "very severe." Compared to other pains, researchers have rated the pain from abortion as more painful than a bone fracture, about the same as cancer pain, though not as painful as an amputation. Studies also reveal that younger women tend to find abortion more painful than do older adults, and that patients typically found abortion more painful than their doctors or counselors expected. The use of more powerful general anesthetics can reduce the pain, but significantly increases the risk of cervical injury or uterine perforation. Complications such as these are common, as are bleeding, hemorrhage, laceration of the cervix, menstrual disturbance, inflammation of the reproductive organs, bladder or bowel perforation, and serious infection." Source

Not only does the woman suffer physical effects, but also psychological effects after abortion. There is Post-Abortion syndrome, post-traumatic stress disorder, sexual disfunction, suicidal ideation, alcohol abuse, drug abuse, child neglect, chronic relationship problems, and eating disorders. All these things have been linked to abortion and the emotional struggle after an abortion. Source (if you'd like more info on the direct links and the psychological studies done on this you can click on the Source link.) So not only is the child murdered in the womb, but the mother also faces some very traumatic experiences after an abortion. Why would a government allow this? Isn't the government's job to protect its citizens from harm?

The US Government in particular contradicts itself when it comes to the abortion issue. It says that if you kill a mother who is pregnant, you are responsible for two deaths. But if you as a mother decide to go into a clinic or a doctor's office, you can kill your own child because you have that "CHOICE." The government refuses to listen to the majority of people who find this crime horrendous and continues to support the loudly spoken and vicious minority.

Thank you.

Edited October 11, 2004 by fearfulone

[Velikovsky]

Charles Dickens knew the power of learning lessons in life by observing the past, present and future. I’m going to follow his example. I’m going to tell you three stories, the first two are true and the last one will come to pass if abortions are again made illegal.

The Past

Her name was Annie, she was 16 and very much in love with her boyfriend. When World War Two started and he left to go fight the war she gave him the only present she thought mattered. Love. A month after he had left she found out she was pregnant.

At first she had no idea what to do. She knew that if her parents found out they would kick her out of the house and disown her. She knew that there was no way she could support herself or a baby. She knew that there was no one she could turn to for help.

Annie did tell one person though, her best friend Kelly. Kelly had heard that there was a doctor in the next town that would perform abortions and after asking around she found out how to find him. A week later Annie and Kelly went to see the doctor, his offices were clean, and he seemed nice. Unfortunately he wasn’t a real doctor and when he did the operation he had a slight accident.

Annie didn’t know this though, she knew she hurt and she wished the bleeding would stop. When she finally made it home she went straight to bed. The next morning when her parents came in to wake her up she was dead. She had bled to death.

The Present

Her name was Annie, she was 25 and had just been raped. Annie had stayed at the college library late studying. While she was walking back to her dorm two men she hadn’t seen before pulled up in a car, they got out and attacked her. The next morning the campus police found her. She filed the police reports, dropped out of college and went home. Three months later she found out she was pregnant.

Annie knew that she could never carry a baby for nine months after being raped. She knew that she would rather die than go through that. Luckily abortion is legal. She went to the clinic, had the abortion and cried with relief when she finally made it home.

Annie took a year off after that. She went to counseling, finished college and met a man she knew she would love forever. Now she has three children, a loving husband and a very successful career.

The Future

Her name was Annie, she was 35 and just found out she was pregnant. She couldn’t wait to tell her husband. They had been trying to have a baby for the last five years. When he found out they immediately went shopping and bought everything a baby could ever want.

Annie took perfect care of herself, she made it to every doctor’s appointment, took her vitamins and went walking every day. Everything was fine for the first six months. In the seventh month the doctor detected an anomaly. He found out that when Annie went into labor that the odds were that both she and the baby would die.

The doctor didn’t say anything though. He knew that abortion, the only thing that could save Annie’s life, was illegal. So he let Annie and her husband remain ignorant. He thought that at least they could enjoy there last few months together.

Annie went into labor and died. The baby died. If abortion had been legal at least Annie could have lived.

Abortion is not a nice pretty idea. At best it’s a poor solution to very real problems. However it’s the only solution we have. Until we have a better solution abortion needs to remain legal.

[fearfulone]

The Present

Her name was Annie, she was 25 and had just been raped. Annie had stayed at the college library late studying. While she was walking back to her dorm two men she hadn’t seen before pulled up in a car, they got out and attacked her. The next morning the campus police found her. She filed the police reports, dropped out of college and went home. Three months later she found out she was pregnant.

Annie knew that she could never carry a baby for nine months after being raped. She knew that she would rather die than go through that. Luckily abortion is legal. She went to the clinic, had the abortion and cried with relief when she finally made it home.

Annie took a year off after that. She went to counseling, finished college and met a man she knew she would love forever. Now she has three children, a loving husband and a very successful career.

What my opponent does not seem to want to acknowledge here are the scientific and psychological studies done on women who have abortions. Earlier I described these effects in great detail. The position that

She went to the clinic, had the abortion and cried with relief when she finally made it home.

Annie took a year off after that. She went to counseling, finished college and met a man she knew she would love forever. Now she has three children, a loving husband and a very successful career

is the point of view of abortion many people in this country have about the effects of an abortion. Unfortunately, it's not so nice.

Unfortunately he wasn’t a real doctor and when he did the operation he had a slight accident.

Annie didn’t know this though, she knew she hurt and she wished the bleeding would stop. When she finally made it home she went straight to bed. The next morning when her parents came in to wake her up she was dead. She had bled to death

Interesting how my opponent would put this in the past. The only thing we have changed today is made it legal and put in steps to protect the doctor from being sued if physical complications occur. Here's the facts about PRESENT physical harm due to abortion: The risk of breast cancer doubles after an abortion in the first trimester and continues to multiply with two or more abortions, Women with one abortion face a 2.3% relative risk of cervical cancer, compared to non-aborted women, Between 2 and 3% of all abortion patients suffer perforation of their uterus, yet most of these injuries will remain undiagnosed and untreated, Abortion increases the risk of placenta previa in later pregnancies (a life threatening condition for both the mother and her wanted pregnancy) by seven to fifteen fold, Abortion is associated with cervical and uterine damage which may increase the risk of premature delivery, complications of labor and abnormal development of the placenta in later pregnancies. These type of reproductive complications are the leading causes of handicaps among newborns, Abortion is significantly related to an increased risk of subsequent ectopic pregnancies. Ectopic pregnancies, in turn, are life threatening and may result in reduced fertility, PID (Pelvic Inflammatory Disease) is a potentially life threatening disease which can lead to an increased risk of ectopic pregnancy and reduced fertility. Of patients who have a chlamydia infection it the time of the abortion, 23% will develop PID within 4 weeks. Studies have found that 20 to 27% of patients seeking abortion have a chlamydia infection. Approximately 5% of patients who are not infected by chlamydia develop PID within 4 weeks after a first trimester abortion, Approximately 10% of women undergoing elective abortion will suffer immediate complications, of which approximately one-fifth (2%) are considered life threatening. The nine most common major complications which can occur at the time of an abortion are: infection, excessive bleeding, embolism, ripping or perforation of the uterus, anesthesia complications, convulsions, hemorrhage, cervical injury, and endotoxic shock, Teenagers, who account for about 30 percent of all abortions, are also at much high risk of suffering many abortion related complications. This is true of both immediate complications, and of long-term reproductive damage, surgical abortion carries many physical risks, which are compounded for repeat and late term abortions. Many women may have damage to their reproductive systems without realizing it, only to find years later that they are infertile or worse. Surgical abortion can make subsequent pregnancies more dangerous, thus contributing to overall maternal mortality for wanted pregnancies. The increased risk of breast cancer, though well documented, is not usually disclosed to women seeking abortions. Any woman considering abortion should take into account the possibilty of becoming injured in any of the ways documented above. More than 58 percent of all women experienced 'quite a bit' or 'severe' pain during induced abortion. Among women with no full term births prior to the abortion, this figure is 61.4%, Women who have induced abortions have an increased risk of HIV infection of 172%, and researchers are at least 99% confident of this result, A typical 15 year old American girl has a 10% lifetime risk of breast cancer. If she gets pregnant in her teens and has the baby she reduces her risk to 7.5%. However, if she has an abortion, her risk of breast cancer rises to 15%...and the most DAMNING evidence for those who think abortion is "safe," The leading causes of abortion related deaths are hemorrhage, infection, embolism, anesthesia, and undiagnosed ectopic pregnancies. Legal abortion is reported as the FIFTH LEADING CAUSE OF MATERNAL DEATH in the United States. Source

I'm sorry, but this painted rosy picture by my opponent is just misleading and appeals to emotion and not logic. The fact is that the mother, or "present annie," would not have a great life after her abortion and go on to have three beautiful children and have a perfect life, the children would more than likely have complications during birth, pretty likely be handicapped or disabled in some way, and the mother would suffer many complications during labor. All these physical problems adding to the psychological problems I posted in my opening are reason enough for our GOVERNMENT to step in and put a stop to the harming of mothers who are not even told or notified of what an abortion does to them. The governments job is to PROTECT its citizens...when will they start doing so? They must make abortion ILLEGAL in order to stop the suffering of mothers who did not know what they were getting into and the death of children in their wombs.

Edited October 14, 2004 by fearfulone

[Velikovsky]

What my opponent does not seem to want to acknowledge here are the scientific and psychological studies done on women who have abortions

This isn’t a scientific issue. Anyone can easily find studies on abortion that will support whatever views they have. There have been studies showing that abortion is the greatest thing since sliced bread. There have also been studies showing that abortion is the greatest evil. So they have no relevance here. This isn’t about the science of abortion.

Here's the facts about PRESENT physical harm due to abortion: The risk of breast cancer doubles after an abortion in the first trimester and continues to multiply with two or more abortions, Women with one abortion face a 2.3% relative risk of cervical cancer, compared to non-aborted women etc...

This isn’t a medical issue. Every surgery done has a degree of danger. No matter what the operation is, abortion or otherwise, people may be hurt or killed. That doesn’t mean we make medicine illegal it just means that medical studies continue to improve the safety of all medical procedures.

I'm sorry, but this painted rosy picture by my opponent is just misleading and appeals to emotion and not logic

This isn’t a happy pretty picture. This is about the impact of teen sex, rape and the death of a mother during child labor. Everyone one of them a situation where abortion has the power to put things right.

Can teen sex cause a problem that abortion can fix?

Yes, it can give the mother and father a chance for success in life.

Can rape cause a problem that abortion can fix?

Yes, no woman should be forced to carry her rapists baby.

Should a woman be forced to carry a baby full term if it may kill her?

No.

The fact is that the mother, or "present annie," would not have a great life after her abortion and go on to have three beautiful children and have a perfect life

You’re stating this as a fact? Every woman who has an abortion is damned to unhappiness? I’m sorry but I don’t think even you believe that. Some woman are unhappy with their decision to have an abortion. Some women are happy with their decision to have an abortion. End of story.

In our modern society we have a unique power. The power over the possibility of life. We can control whether or not the possibility of life exists. Abortion is one of those powers. However it's not the only one.

Condoms kill millions of sperm, all with the possibility of life.

Birth control pills kill one ova a month, all with the possibility of life.

A hysterectomy kills every ova still in a womans body, all with the possibility of life.

A vasectomy kills every sperm a mans body can still produce, all with the possibility of life.

And a fetus is only the possibility of life.

[fearfulone]

This isn’t a scientific issue. Anyone can easily find studies on abortion that will support whatever views they have. There have been studies showing that abortion is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I'm sorry, where are there studies showing abortion is the greatest thing since sliced bread? I've shown my sources, i've done the research and the facts speak for themselves. I am NOT arguing for the scientific facts about whether the fetus is a child (in fact, that was a couple sentences in my first post but not even a major issue), I am arguing that abortion endangers the general public. These SCIENTIFIC FACTS have proven that it is a danger to the people who procure it, and those people should be protected by their government from harming themselves. You, my opponent, have not introduced any FACTS to prove otherwise.

This isn’t a medical issue. Every surgery done has a degree of danger. No matter what the operation is, abortion or otherwise, people may be hurt or killed. That doesn’t mean we make medicine illegal it just means that medical studies continue to improve the safety of all medical procedures.

True, other surgeries do have physical effects on people, and in some cases death. But when

Legal abortion is reported as the FIFTH LEADING CAUSE OF MATERNAL DEATH in the United States. Source

, as i posted earlier, that should cause an alarm or raise some eyebrows.

In our modern society we have a unique power. The power over the possibility of life. We can control whether or not the possibility of life exists. Abortion is one of those powers.

Wow, i believe i understand where my opponent is coming from now. So we are creators and destroyers of life suddenly huh? Interesting for you to bring that up, but that is not the issue at hand. The government must protect its people from danger. That is one of the key roles of a government...whether you want to appeal to the emotional state of some people reading this debate does not matter...the FACTS show that abortion is not as safe as thought in today's society, and the government has the duty to protect us from hurting ourselves...I have read emotional arguments from you, my opponent, but not one FACT.

[BurnSide]

We're waiting on a post from Velikovsky.

[edit] We're still waiting. I consider this a rather sucessful debate so far and i don't want to have to end it prematurely. I'm giving Velikovsky until friday to post, and if we still have no post from him by them we'll throw this one to the judges.

[BurnSide]

Okay. This thread is sadly dead in the water. Velikovsky seems to have dissapeared, and as such i have no choice but to turn this debate over to the debate judges. He'll suffer because he didn't finish the debate, but we'll get the scores first.

Thanks to the both of you for taking part. Over to the judges!

[AztecInca]

Debater 1: Fearfulone!

Relevancy: 9

Countering:10

Style:7

Persuasiveness:9

Total:35.

Debater 2: Velikovsky!

Relevancy:8

Countering:9

Style:8

Persuasiveness:7

Total:32.

An excellent debate, too bad it wasn`t finished.

[Subtemperate]

yes, it is a pity this one did not go longer....

Debater 1: Fearfulone

Relevancy: 8

Countering:10

Style:9

Persuasiveness:9

Total:36.

Debater 2: Velikovsky

Relevancy:9

Countering:7

Style:6

Persuasiveness:6

Total:28.

[Guest Lottie]

Debater 1: Fearfulone!

Relevancy: 8

Countering:8

Style:9

Persuasiveness:8

Total:33.

Debater 2: Velikovsky!

Relevancy:8

Countering:8

Style:9

Persuasiveness:8

Total:33.

You were both very good and a difficult decision. Well done.

[BurnSide]

And the results are in!

Fearfulone scores a massive 35 and takes the win!

31 for Velikovsky who put up a terrific argument!

Thank you both for taking part in the debate.