Syrian Army Confiscates Israeli Weapons

[buckskin scout]

I'm actually proud of my country. I am proud that the deep south of the mid 20th century is dead and buried. Likewise, I am glad that apartheid South Africa vanished from the pages of time. I'm intellectually capable of understanding that South Africa was no welfare case worth paying for, even if it wasn't Birmingham AL, Nazi Germany or Zionist Israel, even if it didn't have VX nerve gas, even if it didn't have arsenals of rogue nukes, even if it didn't have Arab Muslims or Zionist Jews, and even if it wasn't the worst place on the planet, even if something worse than South Africa preexisted it or coexisted with it elsewhere in the world. I'm glad that sorry excuse for a country is in the history books. And no, I'm not anti-British Commonwealth or anti-white-people to come to that conclusion. What's important for Americans, Brits, and the rest of the world to do is call out Israel for what it is, and put an end to the Zionist regime the same way the world put an end to the National Party of 1948 South Africa. If the Zionist regime in Israel wants to come to the table and be taken seriously, every settlement in the West Bank will need to be abandoned, including their deep dig into East Jerusalem.

This.

[+and-then]

The Sinai was dealed away back to Egypt. Gaza is completely blockaded. The Gazans have no control over their own borders have no access to the sea or air either.

Baloney! What is with the nearly 300 Jew ONLY settlements, the several hundred checkpoints, the JEW only highways, and the Israeli occupation under Israeli military law. Don't p*** down our backs and tell us it is raining.

When has Palestine enjoyed a sovereign state? When has Palestine not been occupied? Is not Israel invading Palestine with settlements? Is not Israel attempting to build settlements on every hill in Palestine? With checkpoints and roadblocks? Jew ONLY superhighways? Is not Israel building an apartheid wall?

Tell me something, and then, how many settlements have Palestine built in Israel? How many walls has Palestine constructed in Israel? How many checkpoints and roadblocks has Palestine put up in Israel? How many Palestinian Arab ONLY roads and superhighways has Palestine laid down in Israel?

I did not say the Palestinians had a free sovereign state. I said that the state they envision is one that takes every square inch of the land Israel sits on and so, it is an impossibility. There is no lasting solution to this conflict except for one side to triumph over the other so totally that they cannot rise again. The rest is just smoke, mirrors and nonsense.

Right of return is still fair and decent.

Then the vote should be available to all who live there.

A Palestine with both Jews, Palestinians, and immigrants working on becoming citizens is what we want. It will be achieved one day. Those who are Israelis now will have to live in one country and share political power in a process known as democracy

Have you heard of it?

One day democracy will be extended all aross the globe. Syria is next.

Let the progressive dream continue turning into reality.

Right of return will never be allowed on the scale that Palestinians want. For Israel to do so would cause Jews to be second class citizens in the state they built. Not gonna happen.

What single standard do you have? On occupations? Slaughtering children? Igniting chemical weapons? Renegade nukes? Apartheid settlements? International Law? The United Nations? "The Jews" and "the Arabs"? You don't have a single standard on any of them.

No, If I dismantled and moved Israel elsewhere, I'm just repeating the same mistake. So no, I don't think that at all. No I don't "disagree that the Israelis have any claim to the land...65 years...". Don't tell me what I think when you're this incapable of getting it right. Why don't you actually try quoting me before telling me what I disagree with? You're just circling the wagons repeating your baseless claims about me and the Palestinians too. Though you've been shown what the Palestinians really think numerous times, you return with amnesia soon enough. "The Palestinian claim" isn't the Hamas charter. You've been dearly misled to think that a Hamas bureaucrat represents Palestinian humanity.

I don't accuse you of sharing the views of every nutty thing I can find that a US bureaucrat once said or wrote, obviously because you have nothing to do with it. So stop projecting that nonsense on the Palestinians.

You think you're quoting Abbas now? Source, please.

You're throwing little Palestinian colored stink bombs carelessly and you don't really know what you're talking about. You make up myths or carry someone else's so you can impose a double standard for israel every rhetorical chance you get. I resent and reject double standards, WMDs and occupation regimes are two things in particular that get a lot of air time around here and you gleefully wordsmith the zionist hypocrisy for both. If I don't have a single standard that I'm comfortable with to deal with any of these issues, I look for one. And if I can't find one, I keep looking. When I find one that's good enough for Israel and Palestine both, I find it worth defending rhetorically at the very least, and paying for in our policies at the most.

I'm actually proud of my country. I am proud that the deep south of the mid 20th century is dead and buried. Likewise, I am glad that apartheid South Africa vanished from the pages of time. I'm intellectually capable of understanding that South Africa was no welfare case worth paying for, even if it wasn't Birmingham AL, Nazi Germany or Zionist Israel, even if it didn't have VX nerve gas, even if it didn't have arsenals of rogue nukes, even if it didn't have Arab Muslims or Zionist Jews, and even if it wasn't the worst place on the planet, even if something worse than South Africa preexisted it or coexisted with it elsewhere in the world. I'm glad that sorry excuse for a country is in the history books. And no, I'm not anti-British Commonwealth or anti-white-people to come to that conclusion. What's important for Americans, Brits, and the rest of the world to do is call out Israel for what it is, and put an end to the Zionist regime the same way the world put an end to the National Party of 1948 South Africa. If the Zionist regime in Israel wants to come to the table and be taken seriously, every settlement in the West Bank will need to be abandoned, including their deep dig into East Jerusalem.

I feel so unworthy Pontificate all you like Yam - the song remains the same. The Palestinians can have all the land they can win back in combat OR convince some weak kneed leftist government to give them. But they will never get what they truly want. What they openly speak of almost daily - all of Palestine from the river to the sea. Dress it up and put makeup on it but a pig is still a pig - and this one squeals too much to even be taken seriously anymore. Loose the dogs of war and settle it. Let the world beach and moan in the aftermath but when it's over at least we'll not have to seriously consider the complaints of the losers any longer. Have a nice day

[buckskin scout]

I did not say the Palestinians had a free sovereign state. I said that the state they envision is one that takes every square inch of the land Israel sits on and so, it is an impossibility. There is no lasting solution to this conflict except for one side to triumph over the other so totally that they cannot rise again. The rest is just smoke, mirrors and nonsense.

No the simply answer to all of this nonsense. Palestine wants to be a free and viable state of self-determination. End of story. The Zionists wanted theirs and got theirs. Palestinians wanted theirs and never got theirs.

And Israel wants every square inch of the land Palestine sits on too. Don't you know what "Eretz Israel" truly means? Dont you know why Israel defies international laws? Dont you know the real reason why Israel never defines its borders? Dont you know why Israel doesnt have a written constitution (hint? hint? it has to do with equality and equal rights!)?

[+and-then]

No the simply answer to all of this nonsense. Palestine wants to be a free and viable state of self-determination. End of story. The Zionists wanted theirs and got theirs. Palestinians wanted theirs and never got theirs.

And Israel wants every square inch of the land Palestine sits on too. Don't you know what "Eretz Israel" truly means? Dont you know why Israel defies international laws? Dont you know the real reason why Israel never defines its borders? Dont you know why Israel doesnt have a written constitution (hint? hint? it has to do with equality and equal rights!)?

Bug how does what you just said make what I said untrue? IF everything you keep ranting about was true to the nth degree - it STILL doesn't matter because in the real world they will never regain a square inch of land until they either win it in battle (never) or until they become willing to actually negotiate and compromise in some way. Folks like you holding your breath and having a hissy fit over the reality that exists now is pointless. Except that it keeps irrational hopes alive in the Palestinians that some magical day they'll get it all. Can you even bring yourself to admit that? That Palestinians will never regain ALL THE LAND? That's a serious question.

[buckskin scout]

Bug how does what you just said make what I said untrue? IF everything you keep ranting about was true to the nth degree - it STILL doesn't matter because in the real world they will never regain a square inch of land until they either win it in battle (never) or until they become willing to actually negotiate and compromise in some way. Folks like you holding your breath and having a hissy fit over the reality that exists now is pointless. Except that it keeps irrational hopes alive in the Palestinians that some magical day they'll get it all. Can you even bring yourself to admit that? That Palestinians will never regain ALL THE LAND? That's a serious question.

But there is a lasting solution... let Palestine be a state and cease the Israeli occupation, dismantle the settlements, remove all the checkpoints, tear down the WALL, and open the Jew only roads to all Palestinian citizens.

Give the Palestinians some long overdue dignity, a home, and FREEDOM.

[+and-then]

But there is a lasting solution... let Palestine be a state and cease the Israeli occupation, dismantle the settlements, remove all the checkpoints, tear down the WALL, and open the Jew only roads to all Palestinian citizens.

Give the Palestinians some long overdue dignity, a home, and FREEDOM.

Why can't/won't you answer the question as phrased?

[buckskin scout]

Why can't/won't you answer the question as phrased?

Because it is a nasty trick question. Can the Palestinians take the land of Palestine with force? Of course not, they have no standing military... no army, navy, nor air force.

But can they achieve statehood, well, I'd like to see it in my lifetime. I would like to see Israeli Arabs have more opportunities to run for political offices and fill more government positions. If Israel claims to be a democracy... then why not?

Edited January 11, 2013 by Ambush Bug

[+and-then]

Because it is a nasty trick question. Can the Palestinians take the land of Palestine with force? Of course not, they have no standing military... no army, navy, nor air force.

But can they achieve statehood, well, I'd like to see it in my lifetime. I would like to see Israeli Arabs have more opportunities to run for political offices and fill more government positions. If Israel claims to be a democracy... then why not?

It truly is not meant to be any kind of trick, Bug. In fact the question is sincere and gets down to the true, great difference in how we see this conflict. I have admitted that Israel has often been at fault for imposing it's will on the Palestinians. That the settlers illegally (according to international law) build on "disputed" Palestinian lands. Where the dispute is often contrived and sketchy. That the IDF has in fact become an occupation force and has committed stupidity in their dealings with everyday Palestinians in ways that are unfair. I do NOT accept that atrocities are regularly committed. Once actual combat begins then Israel is held to a very high standard and they act professionally because they KNOW the world is watching and taking careful notes. But that aside, where I feel you - and for that matter most here, fail to understand my point is that you either do not see or do not believe that the Palestinians are also culpable. You do not accept that they have as their STATED goal that since they did not agree to partition, they should be able to nullify the entire agreement from 65 years ago, remove Israelis from all the land and take up ownership of all of the land again. While such an attitude is understandable in the sense of absolute fairness, when has the world ever been that fair?

I predict that a peace will come to this region - maybe in the next couple of years. I think the leadership of the Palestinians has finally realized that they will have to give the appearance of compromise to get the world community to press Israel with sanctions sufficient to cause a vacillating Israeli public to try once again for the all elusive end of conflict. Big fanfare and hoopla by most of the world community that the problem has finally been solved. Israel will agree to "share" Jerusalem by making it an international city and they'll give over control of the WB almost totally to the Palestinians. There will be some international component force set in place but when the next conflict begins it will serve to restrain Israeli retaliation rather than truly be a force for unbiased peaceful restraint. The fighting will begin anew but this time it will begin with Israel on a much smaller piece of land. That will cause them to strike MUCH harder and then the whole thing will begin again. So my question really isn't a trick. If what I say - which I think a reasonable person can see the logic in - comes to fruition then how do you react? Is your stance that the Palestinians deserve to retake all the land regardless the cost to the world? Or do you think a reasonable compromise should be enforced on BOTH parties and then upheld by an unbiased international force?

ETA: Other opinions are welcome here...

Edited January 11, 2013 by and then