UFO reports - From Foo fighters to today

[Kludge808]

The photo is not a ufo in the clouds but rather a log floating down a fast moving river.

You have some way to verify this, right?

[bmk1245]

yes, that's what i've always argued, although people just seem to dismiss it point blank as sci fi fantasy. of course, also, it was not manned (or alienned), but was an automated probe or drone, size wouldn't be an issue, and neither wiould G forces that no living thing could stand or the immeasurable distances of space. What I've sometimes envisaged is a forward base or mother ship somewhere inconspicuous, like among the Moons of Jupiter or Saturn or the asteroid Belt, which might not be distinguishable from a regular Asteroid or moonlet, at least from this distance, which is used as a base for a systematic program of exploration of the whiole Soalr System, not necessarily just us. We might not be of any particular interest to any explorers; that might be why sightings of these probe craft are fairly intermittent and theyhaven't made Contact yet.

Possible, but why then send one of those big ones to chase jumbo stuffed with wine?

And BTW, they are pretty good at keeping radio silence, then...

[Space Commander Travis]

Possible, but why then send one of those big ones to chase jumbo stuffed with wine?

And BTW, they are pretty good at keeping radio silence, then...

Well, of course, they probably wouldn't use the same radio frequencie we'd be able to listen to, I'm sure. I expect they'd probably have developed some other method of communication.

[Kludge808]

yes, that's what i've always argued, although people just seem to dismiss it point blank as sci fi fantasy.

It makes a lot more sense than having those small craft covering interstellar space. Okay, so it worked for the Robinsons (& Dr. Smith) on "Lost in Space" but that was science fiction. The best comparison I can come up with is an aircraft carrier which prepositions its aircraft so they can perform their mission. A mothership would do precisely the same thing, preposition its smaller craft to perform their missions.

of course, also, it was not manned (or alienned), but was an automated probe or drone, size wouldn't be an issue, and neither wiould G forces that no living thing could stand or the immeasurable distances of space.

Even an un-entitied ship would need to be large enough to carry the astrogation equipment, propulsion* and other equipment required to complete its mission. It can be smaller than a being-carrying one to a point. However with its mission likely being significantly more sophisticated than the probes we launch, it has to pack an awful lot of stuff aboard.

* Note that if it's traveling interstellar distances, it has to be able to do so by some means that allows apparent FTL velocities. This could be any of several means - wormholes & space folding to mention two - however those means still require power in huge batches 'n loads. Well, unless they use the navigators from "Dune".

What I've sometimes envisaged is a forward base or mother ship somewhere inconspicuous, like among the Moons of Jupiter or Saturn or the asteroid Belt, which might not be distinguishable from a regular Asteroid or moonlet, at least from this distance, which is used as a base for a systematic program of exploration of the whiole Soalr System, not necessarily just us. We might not be of any particular interest to any explorers; that might be why sightings of these probe craft are fairly intermittent and theyhaven't made Contact yet.

Probes ... as in abductions?

Anyway, that's how I'd do it and, in fact, sketched it out in my notebooks for writing science fiction. (They were among the things that went adrift somewhere between Pittsburgh, PA, and here.) I'd think that they'd want to be hidden as much as possible and what sightings that there may have been (ie, the unknowns that might actually be alien craft) could easily have been incidental although somewhere in the back of my mind I have the idea that Portage County could have been aliens having a bit of fun.

[meteorlima]

Replying to UFO reports-From Foo fighters to today...Open discussion from believers, FTBs,(flaming true believers) the woo-woo crazies and us skeptics. Here's a softball for you "skeptics"....http://pinktentacle....-mini-ufo-1972/

[bmk1245]

Well, of course, they probably wouldn't use the same radio frequencie we'd be able to listen to, I'm sure. I expect they'd probably have developed some other method of communication.

They probably would get away with single transmission, but bearing in ming volume of "sightings", I'd say - no way. And they would use same bands due to atmospheric absorption. As for some other means of communication - doubt it.

[Kludge808]

Replying to UFO reports-From Foo fighters to today...Open discussion from believers, FTBs,(flaming true believers) the woo-woo crazies and us skeptics. Here's a softball for you "skeptics"....http://pinktentacle....-mini-ufo-1972/

First it's 'us skeptics' then it's 'you "skeptics"'. Sooo ... ummm ... which side of the fence are you on anyway?

[Kludge808]

They probably would get away with single transmission, but bearing in ming volume of "sightings", I'd say - no way. And they would use same bands due to atmospheric absorption. As for some other means of communication - doubt it.

This depends on the technology in use. If they have the tech to get into the realm where wavelengths are measured in Angstroms (or their equivalent units), then it's a whole new ballgame.

[bmk1245]

Replying to UFO reports-From Foo fighters to today...Open discussion from believers, FTBs,(flaming true believers) the woo-woo crazies and us skeptics. Here's a softball for you "skeptics"....http://pinktentacle....-mini-ufo-1972/

Kids gave lil' aliens concussion by rattling their... er... spaceship. Then it was disappearing (from the closet)/was recaptured few times, then it disappeared from the bag... Highly unbelievable, but cool story for scifi anime.

[bmk1245]

This depends on the technology in use. If they have the tech to get into the realm where wavelengths are measured in Angstroms (or their equivalent units), then it's a whole new ballgame.

Then they would drive X-Ray astronomers mad, plus absorption and scattering would kick in again.

[Space Commander Travis]

They probably would get away with single transmission, but bearing in ming volume of "sightings", I'd say - no way. And they would use same bands due to atmospheric absorption. As for some other means of communication - doubt it.

really? Bearing in mind that we've only been able to communication wirelessly since the 1890s, do you really think that that's the be all and end all of communication technology and no race possessing advanced technology would ever be likely to develop any way that couldn't be overheard? That really is assuming that we already know all there is to know.

[psyche101]

Yep. I guess they read our newspapers and figure they may as well play along.

Which brings up an interesting point. Are the triangular craft derived from the Imperial star destroyers? They're definitely triangular although a lot more pointy, more like an arrowhead.

Seems more than reasonable, good time frame for Star Wars to give The Belgian Flop some inspiration which is how we probably ended up with triangles there, from the more genuine reports one gets the impression that spheres were probably all that was really seen at that one.

Okay, so what are those rectangular thingies at the let end of the object? There are an awful lot of straight lines in that pic which don't make any kind of sense. Your thoughts?

I do not think it is in the distance and I reckon brackets to hold an old school folding ruler together which probably explains the straight lines.

Edited March 25, 2013 by psyche101

[psyche101]

The photo is not a ufo in the clouds but rather a log floating down a fast moving river.

I do not think so, it came from an official publication regarding Mount Washington.

[psyche101]

yes, that's what i've always argued, although people just seem to dismiss it point blank as sci fi fantasy. of course, also, it was not manned (or alienned), but was an automated probe or drone, size wouldn't be an issue, and neither wiould G forces that no living thing could stand or the immeasurable distances of space. What I've sometimes envisaged is a forward base or mother ship somewhere inconspicuous, like among the Moons of Jupiter or Saturn or the asteroid Belt, which might not be distinguishable from a regular Asteroid or moonlet, at least from this distance, which is used as a base for a systematic program of exploration of the whiole Soalr System, not necessarily just us. We might not be of any particular interest to any explorers; that might be why sightings of these probe craft are fairly intermittent and theyhaven't made Contact yet.

I dismiss it as fantasy because it leaves very open ends. If we have scout ships then we do not even have to track them all the way back to a planet, just one spot in the Solar System as suggested, so if anything a mothership scenario should be that much easier to detect yet again. I object to the "invisible" motherships assumed to be housing what is assumed to be ET, when said object does not even have a sensible reason for considering it to be in interstellar origin. It's not just the cart before the horse, it's the seed that would eventually grow a tree before the horse.

Let's say all UFO's, or even a significant sample all head into space, and disappear in the asteroid belt, then you may have a valid assumption, but the objects you are talking about have not ever been tracked as even heading for space, so it seems a leap to consider a space docked mothership for something that does not even go into space.

And I disagree that a mothership looking like or hiding on/in an Asteroid/moon is sufficient to be completely hidden from us. Whilst it sounds neat, we are more vigilant than that. I still do not know why a simple phone call would not be superior in every single way, in particular, when talking about earth.

It would not hurt for you to put a little more effort into your ideal if yo feel so strongly about is, instead of always going "I think it's a marvellous Idea, but some don't" I mean a bit of camouflage? That's the answer to the UFO phenomena and this astounding stealth? Do you think it is likely that such a simple concept creates such controversy?

Edited March 25, 2013 by psyche101

[Space Commander Travis]

It would not hurt for you to put a little more effort into your ideal if yo feel so strongly about is, instead of always going "I think it's a marvellous Idea, but some don't" I mean a bit of camouflage? That's the answer to the UFO phenomena and this astounding stealth? Do you think it is likely that such a simple concept creates such controversy?

Oh no, I'm not being challenged by someone else now? I'm being challenged by Zoser becuause I'm a lazy Skeptic. i really can't win. All my "ideal" is is a few ideas that i think don't seem too unreasonable, heavens, I'm not trying to promote a Hypothesis or anything. I don't know why you're so dismissive of it, I presume it must be because you're so determined to insist that the idea of exploration by exterrestrial intelligence is so preposterous, is that it? I really do think you're deliberately being obtuse with your "objections" sometimes, I really do. Like when you kept trying to insist that I kept trying to insist on UFOs being manned by Robots, when you knew full well that that wasn't what I meant. And you keep on about your "simple phone call"; that assumes that anyone would, as soon as they'd discovered us, want to make contact with us. Why would they want to do that? "It would be rude not to", you say; that's just pure anthropomorphism. I try to talk about basic principles of scientific study, of not interfering with your subject, and you just talk about Star Trek. I really do think you're being deliberately obtuse, I really do.

[bmk1245]

really? Bearing in mind that we've only been able to communication wirelessly since the 1890s, do you really think that that's the be all and end all of communication technology and no race possessing advanced technology would ever be likely to develop any way that couldn't be overheard? That really is assuming that we already know all there is to know.

You can fiddle with power, gain, directivity, any combination of modulation, etc, but you won't change how EM propagates through atmosphere.

[taniwha]

I do not think it is in the distance and I reckon brackets to hold an old school folding ruler together which probably explains the straight lines.

LOL Its a hell of a mystery in itself why a ruler would be flying around at such an altitude dont you think?

[Space Commander Travis]

But if they don't use electromagnetic communications? In fact, if, as some surmise, the system by which they fly uses some form of electronagnetic technology, then they probably wouldn't be able to use it for communications, not to mention all the difficulties associated with such a primitive method of communications as the length of time it takes for a signal to get anywhere. No, before anyone else tries to Challenge me to back up my Hypothesis, I don't know what they might use.

[psyche101]

Oh no, I'm not being challenged by someone else now? I'm being challenged by Zoser becuause I'm a lazy Skeptic. i really can't win. All my "ideal" is is a few ideas that i think don't seem too unreasonable, heavens, I'm not trying to promote a Hypothesis or anything. I don't know why you're so dismissive of it, I presume it must be because you're so determined to insist that the idea of exploration by exterrestrial intelligence is so preposterous, is that it? I really do think you're deliberately being obtuse with your "objections" sometimes, I really do. Like when you kept trying to insist that I kept trying to insist on UFOs being manned by Robots, when you knew full well that that wasn't what I meant. And you keep on about your "simple phone call"; that assumes that anyone would, as soon as they'd discovered us, want to make contact with us. Why would they want to do that? "It would be rude not to", you say; that's just pure anthropomorphism. I try to talk about basic principles of scientific study, of not interfering with your subject, and you just talk about Star Trek. I really do think you're being deliberately obtuse, I really do.

Where does that all come from? You said "some people" dismiss the idea as Sci Fi Fantasy well that's pretty much me isn't it? If you are going to advertise that I call it fantasy, then I am going to say why, I do not understand why that would upset you, and with regards to your "Robots" get yourself back the Father Gill thread and read my last post on that, you are just lying about the star wars stuff, and our last discussion in the thread will prove just that when I gave you Alien Planet robots and you agreed (for the 3rd time I think?) that such is indeed what you are describing, you are not "challenged" do not get your panties in a twist.

Who is obtuse? You only have to tell me once, you and I seem to have had the same discussion at least 4 times so far. And each time, you make the same protest. Not sure if you are deliberately forgetting or if you just like to argue that particular point and use the word "obtuse" several times in one sentence. Heck considering how many times I have had to remind you of the Darwin 4 Concept I suppose it is not all that amazing that you keep forgetting we have had this conversation before.

I did not say robotic exploration was preposterous, and have agreed with you in the past that in the cases of harsh planets, such as Venus, or any Gas Giant, then robotics are going to be the only way, same with Jupiters moons. I said that saying the concept is original is preposterous as such has been proposed in Sci Fi for decades now. But whenever the possibilty for intelligent life exists, which we are ourselves are looking for right now, then a phone call is much more sensible than a robot in every way, I am not sure how you would see that otherwise to be frank. As soon as we see a planet that has intelligent life, what do you think we are going to do? Send a robot or try and make a phone call? It has nothing to do with anthropomorphism, in fact I expected a better argument than that! That's down there with the TRS type debating skill!! Your memory seems to be slipping mate, it has nothing to do with any humanity concept at all, in fact it is daft to suggest that ego might be the motivation, it is to do with Cost, Safety, Speed and resources. What crosses space faster, cheaper, and with less risk than a phone call? And what happens if the mission fails with comms? Nothing. What happens if the new species is violent? Long time to prepare. It has every advantage, is at the speed of light already little cost I do not see why it would not be the first option, do you?

I said it would be rude to spy on an unknown species, not to ignore a phone call. Good God man, do you read my posts at all?

Edited March 25, 2013 by psyche101

[psyche101]

But if they don't use electromagnetic communications? In fact, if, as some surmise, the system by which they fly uses some form of electronagnetic technology, then they probably wouldn't be able to use it for communications, not to mention all the difficulties associated with such a primitive method of communications as the length of time it takes for a signal to get anywhere. No, before anyone else tries to Challenge me to back up my Hypothesis, I don't know what they might use.

Probably light, like we do with Optical Fibre cable.

What is faster than light?

No matter how you look at it, physical travel is going to be much, much longer and more expensive, and carry greater risk.

Edited March 25, 2013 by psyche101

[psyche101]

LOL Its a hell of a mystery in itself why a ruler would be flying around at such an altitude dont you think?

It's an aliens ruler of course.

It is not "in the distance" I reckon. Again, the lines on the map, what do you think they might be from?

[bmk1245]

But if they don't use electromagnetic communications? In fact, if, as some surmise, the system by which they fly uses some form of electronagnetic technology, then they probably wouldn't be able to use it for communications, not to mention all the difficulties associated with such a primitive method of communications as the length of time it takes for a signal to get anywhere. No, before anyone else tries to Challenge me to back up my Hypothesis, I don't know what they might use.

Too many ifs... But if there are no other ways, simply can't exist?

[Kludge808]

Psyche, old friend, we rarely disagree but on this one subject ...

I dismiss it as fantasy because it leaves very open ends.

Ufology in general is a huge tangle of loose ends, many of which have no easy response. This isn't helped by the FTBs and their claims but once they're swept aside like the trash they are there are still too many questions that lack answers.

If we have scout ships then we do not even have to track them all the way back to a planet, just one spot in the Solar System as suggested, so if anything a mothership scenario should be that much easier to detect yet again.

Even the reported radar tracks vanish which suggests any of several possibilities none the least of which is something that can function as FTL - space folding, for example - to make microjumps within the system, keeping in mind that the Kuiper Belt is part of the system.

I object to the "invisible" motherships assumed to be housing what is assumed to be ET, when said object does not even have a sensible reason for considering it to be in interstellar origin.

Out in the Kuiper Belt, it wouldn't be so difficult for a mothership a couple kilometers long to park with small scouts flitting about albeit somewhat carefully. However, interstellar is only one possibility and this approaches that one. Transdimensional travel necessitates another set of parameters that also imply disappearance.

Let's say all UFO's, or even a significant sample all head into space, and disappear in the asteroid belt, then you may have a valid assumption, but the objects you are talking about have not ever been tracked as even heading for space, so it seems a leap to consider a space docked mothership for something that does not even go into space.

That doesn't go into space that we know of. I have to keep reminding myself that we don't know all there is to physics or much of anything else. If the developments of the past double decade or so haven't shown us anything else, they have shown just how little we actually know. This includes the ability to travel really, really fast - fast enough that radar can't track it. We don't know how to do it but that doesn't mean it can't be done. Trust me, radar isn't infallible. In fact, it can be falled quite easily. The systems tracking the junk in orbit is no exception. Something that's a blip "one time only" or results in blips that are too widely spread to be acceptable as space junk will be largely ignored since there's essentially nothing to track. (I was a radarman in the Navy and have been following it out of idle curiosity since then.)

And I disagree that a mothership looking like or hiding on/in an Asteroid/moon is sufficient to be completely hidden from us. Whilst it sounds neat, we are more vigilant than that.

There are a few octogazillion (as opposed to octazillion which is something else entirely) eyes looking into space all over the world. I know you have a pair of them yourself as do I when I go out (and this idiot weather clears up! *grumble* I hate cloudy nights worse than I do cloudy days.) although I'm more nekkid eye until I can get a new tripod set up for my Canon 20D and a pleasingly long lens. However, at no time is the sky covered 100%. With that, we may have seen things that either didn't register or we've dismissed for one reason or another. Meaningless blips, just like the radar.

As a 'zample of another possibility, I've watched airplanes I could see albeit not always clearly due to haze or altitude (or both) but could hear fairly well and had them disappear on me. I know where they should be but I can no longer see them for any of a number of reasons including how the sun is hitting them. Even a slight turn can alter the sun's reflection from the aircraft's surface enough to change how well it can be seen. It doesn't take a lot for an object to no longer register with human optics.

OTOH, "shot into space" and "disappeared" are two different critters. I wonder how many of the latter are reported as the former because the observers weren't comfortable with something simply disappearing. Reported radar sightings (discounting those shown to be weather phenomena) include object disappearances which can go to any of a number of possibilities from stealth to accelerating faster than the radar can track to an interdimensional portal to ... [fill in the blank.]

I still do not know why a simple phone call would not be superior in every single way, in particular, when talking about earth.

Who're they gonna call? And how? Besides, a phone call implies an active desire to communicate with humans which I can't see as being the case. By and large, they seem rather uncommunicative. Well, except for some FTB claims that don't hold up very well including abductions, implants and all that other bovine fecal matter.

Interstellar travel is only one possibility and it has holes large enough to drive an aircraft carrier through. There are also transdimensional travel, parallel universes (I'm not sure that counts as a separate dimensional set so I'm listing it separately.), misidentified government black projects and ... and ... and ... the list goes on.

Which reminds me of something. As I've mentioned, I live under the approach to Honolulu International so I get to see all sorts of aircraft day and night. At least one type of aircraft has a set of landing lights, one in the nose and two out on the wings, that form a rather large triangle. When it goes over under certain weather conditions, that's all one sees, those three landing lights. They're also not moving all that fast and it's not unusual for them to be throttled back enough that the engines aren't that clearly heard. If the wingtip strobes are visible, that simply enhances the image of a "slow moving black triangle". Were an FTB to see it, (s)he would be jumping up & down and pointing while claiming, "UFO! AIL-E-UNZ!" despite being told what it actually is. (A CTist would claim a black project black triangle thingie followed by any of a number of CTs to rationalize it.) And all it was was an airliner on approach to HNL.

[Kludge808]

Then they would drive X-Ray astronomers mad, plus absorption and scattering would kick in again.

Well, X-Ray astronomers only cover a small portion of the spectrum. What I was thinking about was the fact that we've managed to put a visible laser spot on the moon from Earth without all that much difficulty so it would not be difficult for another species to use the same technology for communications - at least on a local basis. For long haul, I'd be tempted to go with quantum entanglement.

[Kludge808]

No matter how you look at it, physical travel is going to be much, much longer and more expensive, and carry greater risk.

Yep. But that just adds to the fun!