Mind Control. It's been here the whole time.

[Mikko-kun]

Link, but just because it was so easy to get: http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=243809 not a direct evidence but if there's an entrance point to wireless transmitting... that's all you need. And you know how they keep the best tech out of news, or at least try to.

[scowl]

Ok... scowl. You're right about people being able to have delusions. It's a documented thing. Anyone can have delusions, there's three main ways:

1. Use of external substances, magic mushrooms for example.

2. Putting more faith to things than what it's worth. I do that, but I'm always prepared to be taken back to ground when you give a reasonable statement like you did.

And the third one (which you forgot to list) is mental illness.

For whatever reasons.

In astrology...

Which has no foundation in science whatsoever making everything else you typed of no value.

[Quaentum]

So you cannot detect obvious satire in writing. Things become much clearer now.

So your writings about mind control were just satire. Thanks for clearing that up.

[scowl]

So your writings about mind control were just satire. Thanks for clearing that up.

prometheuslocke, satire doesn't work on this topic. The Mind Control Forum has victim testimonies that seem more like satire than what you wrote!

[prometheuslocke]

prometheuslocke, satire doesn't work on this topic. The Mind Control Forum has victim testimonies that seem more like satire than what you wrote!

The Illuminati thing was satire.. Quaentum was.. "joking.." or misdirecting the conversation to suit his purpose. Either way, the conversation isn't being followed very well.

[Mikko-kun]

scowl.. it has value. You can have your own beliefs about it working or not, but if you haven't tried it and dismiss it as if you actually knew what it is, it's pretty arrogant of you isn't it? You can choose to believe whatever you want though, just like some of your patients do.

And your reading comprehension.. yeah I can be obscure but I must question if you actually know anything more about the things you claim to try to heal, than what's been written about them. Do you have any first-hand experience of them, have you ever been close to psychosis or schitzophrenia? Do you even put value to first-hand experiences like those?

Those who have delusions put more faith into things than what it's worth. Exactly as I said. They take it to greater extent than some of us who take a believer-stance on some matters, to a more insisting and compelling extent, but the basic thing is very much the same. Insisting and compelling..

[scowl]

scowl.. it has value.

It has no scientific value. Astrology has been tested and does not work.

You can have your own beliefs about it working or not, but if you haven't tried it and dismiss it as if you actually knew what it is, it's pretty arrogant of you isn't it?

Is it arrogant to dismiss perpetual motion machines? Is it arrogant to dismiss the boogie man? Is it arrogant to dismiss fairies? Is it arrogant to think that the world won't end in 2012? If it is then label me arrogant.

You can choose to believe whatever you want though, just like some of your patients do.

My patients? I haven't worked in a hospital in twenty five years.

And your reading comprehension.. yeah I can be obscure but I must question if you actually know anything more about the things you claim to try to heal, than what's been written about them.

Claim to heal? First, the doctors did that. Second, they didn't heal anything since there is no cure for schizophrenia. Third, yes, my job was to interview people coming into the mental ward so I personally talked to several dozen people with schizophrenic symptoms in the year I worked there.

Do you have any first-hand experience of them, have you ever been close to psychosis or schitzophrenia? Do you even put value to first-hand experiences like those?

When I worked in a mental ward (or whatever they call them now), I saw psychotic people come in with delusions, get treatment, and walk out with fewer delusions to the point they could now function at their jobs and take care of themselves.

Something wrong with that?

[Mikko-kun]

Nope, nothing wrong with you interviewing people there and seeing them come back healthier. It's a good thing. I guess I read too much into what you said there... sorry for that. Should do something with that reading comprehension of mine, making all these conclusions that aint there.. it's a form of psychosis too, even if a more benign and minor one.

You can dismiss astrology all you want. Wont make it go away outside your head, that.

[dontworryaboutit]

while promethues seems to be a very intellegent person (for a crazy person). when people ask for evidence simplying supplying a link for people to read is not evidence. using these links and showing how the link together to form your theory is evidence. You ignored a post from a person who had worked with metally ill people that has delusions and some understood this was not normal while some did not. you claim they are 2 completlely different illnesses (or one illness while the other group would be mind control). some people simply have a deeper understanding of themselves and the things around them even in their delusionaly while others dream up these wild stories.

also asking for evidence to disprove theories is the most idoitic thing possible. although people have done a great job of it, it is extremly hard to disprove something like this(or any other consparicy theory) and generally the person proposing the theory will never excepet any evidence to disprove it. This is your theory therefore you are the one to prove this theory, not us to disprove it, that is how science works.

and im sorry mikko-kun dont try to claim astrology as fact... you can choose to "believe" in it but dont push it apon people or try to imply its science when its not. i have no problem with people "beiliving" in things. its when people push them off as facts that it becomes a problem.

fun fact: i think the whole mind control thing would be more believable if these people were saying aliens were behind it(if that pops up up in the future i call dibs on being credited for it). i just dont think we have a good enough understanding of the mind or the technology to control minds in the sense you claim. techinacally we are all "mind control". someone has implanted the thought that people control peoples minds into premethues's mind thus mind control is real!!!!!

[Mikko-kun]

What right do you have to claim astrology as invalid, if I dont have the right to claim it has some well-founded basis to the reality we live in? Are you an expert in the field maybe, do you maybe have a theory that explains why and how astrology is invalid? I've done readings to more than hundred people, maybe 1% of them said something was more off in my reading, and they're not just ambiguous stuff which can apply to anyone and everyone. I dont want to even start making my case before you make yours... because if you have a go at me in this matter by saying it's not valid because science conflicts it, then maybe you could show where exactly and how does it conflict with science, instead of me having to do the guess-work. And we're talking about psychological astrology, not predictive, the former is more relevant to mental disorders. I'm actually very interested in hearing if you have something to put to table about this. And I'm not a hard-ass like you, your own intuition and logic and emotions and observations are good enough to me, you dont need to go to a scientist and get a "confirmed" paper of them.

[dontworryaboutit]

i have no problem with people "beiliving" in things. its when people push them off as facts that it becomes a problem.

as i said you can believe whatever you like. this is not the discussion of for this topic and dont care to argue with you with over astrology and wether its real or not as we both seem to have our mind made up on that front.

And I'm not a hard-ass like you, your own intuition and logic and emotions and observations are good enough to me, you dont need to go to a scientist and get a "confirmed" paper of them.

as for this , good. you should listen to yourself and draw your own conclusions as i try to do. however in cases where one does not know a topic(and i am not reffering to you and astrology) proof helps support any claims you have and also helps you understand the topic more. no you dont need a scientfic paper for everything. but making baseless claims of an area one would need to devote a life time to understand (quantum physics and the human brain) and then try to mash that together to create this mind control theory with little understanding is abit silly. so unless promethesus is a quantum physicists who also dabbles into the study of the human mind from time to time, evidence to show how his articles connect and prove his theory would be helpful. instead of us having to read through them and then peice them together ourselves. we probably wont come to the same conclusion. thats why you peice together the conlusion yourself and present it backed up with evidence from the sources provided.

as i can tell i struck a nerve with what must be a passion of yours im sorry for offending you

[prometheuslocke]

while promethues seems to be a very intellegent person (for a crazy person). when people ask for evidence simplying supplying a link for people to read is not evidence. using these links and showing how the link together to form your theory is evidence. You ignored a post from a person who had worked with metally ill people that has delusions and some understood this was not normal while some did not. you claim they are 2 completlely different illnesses (or one illness while the other group would be mind control). some people simply have a deeper understanding of themselves and the things around them even in their delusionaly while others dream up these wild stories.

also asking for evidence to disprove theories is the most idoitic thing possible. although people have done a great job of it, it is extremly hard to disprove something like this(or any other consparicy theory) and generally the person proposing the theory will never excepet any evidence to disprove it. This is your theory therefore you are the one to prove this theory, not us to disprove it, that is how science works.

and im sorry mikko-kun dont try to claim astrology as fact... you can choose to "believe" in it but dont push it apon people or try to imply its science when its not. i have no problem with people "beiliving" in things. its when people push them off as facts that it becomes a problem.

fun fact: i think the whole mind control thing would be more believable if these people were saying aliens were behind it(if that pops up up in the future i call dibs on being credited for it). i just dont think we have a good enough understanding of the mind or the technology to control minds in the sense you claim. techinacally we are all "mind control". someone has implanted the thought that people control peoples minds into premethues's mind thus mind control is real!!!!!

You are in luck, I've been saying aliens are behind it, since the first post!

Unfortunately I disagree with the second half of the statement though, I am pretty sure that the CIA/KGB feverishly worked to reverse engineer a phenomenon they witnessed (or was witnessed by Paperclip scientists) during the Cold War.. leaving the technology in the completely inept hands of humans also.

I'll cite the shutting down of MK-Ultra by Congress as evidence that it was clearly not shut down.. (smirk) In all honesty, if you were researching such a thing in 1971, and the world found out.. and your job is to collect "human intelligence".. would you stop?

Also, there's a huge body of literature of the Soviets researching "psychotronics" even until recent times.

Just to clarify, I am not ignoring scowl. I believe schizophrenia is real, and I am sure he has plenty of first hand knowledge about it. At the same time, I believe it would be a very effective way to silence someone that "knows too much", completely discrediting their testimony, without doing something obvious like slashing their wrists in a hotel in Martinsburg, WV. Dismissing the possibility of an entity using such a weapon because schizophrenia is real is.. premature.

Edited March 12, 2013 by prometheuslocke

[Mikko-kun]

No problem, it's my problem (too) if I get offended too easily... I think you have a good head on your shoulders the more of your stuff I read.

I can see where you're from when pointing out the lack of understanding to quantum physics and the human brain... if we could understand better the relation between all sorts of radiowaves and quantum-level influences on brains, other than "put it in a micro wave and it fries", we might be able to discuss it in a bit more in-depth sense from the earthly materia's point of view. If someone can shed more light there, I'd be very interested to hear, although I wont be a good contributor to that field.

I've just observed how we people work, and take other people's observations always with your grain of salt, that's how they should be taken if you ask me.. but, I've observed that the part of our psyche where limits between things tend to blur, can have many functions. It can function as a source of empathy (borders between "I feel" and "you feel" blurring), source of illusions (borders between real and something on your mind blurring, this kind of illusion is also at work when you dance or act or do art of any kind where you do less "real" things).. that part of our psyche is one prime candidate for psychosis and schitzophrenia in my field, but it's also a part of our psyche through which we are said to be able to enhance our perception. By enhancing our perception I mean seeing the future, seeing and hearing ghosts, dream-visions, premonitions in your dreams, all kinds of things... it's a very debatable matter whether we believe in them and whether we have evidence of them, I can't provide the evidence but that part of our psyche, as far as I see it, it can be a passageway to both madness and higher things, and even if you believe in the possiblity of the latter too, which I believe in, it may only make it harder to distinquish between the two in some cases. Partially because there tends to be an effort from the person suffering from symptoms to retain contact with the earthly reality, retain contact and functionality in our earthly reality, so it may sever whatever cord there was to some possible higher level of perception and leave the person with make-believes. You probably know which part of the psyche I am talking about, the too-vivid imagination, it's easy to contact, but can be very hard to handle if you let it go berserk and dont keep your feet on the ground.

I believe that is a possibility, but can't say it's a sure thing, far from that.. my main reason to give it a level of possibility is that I believe in the possibility of the higher levels of perception in us, as it's happened to me too to a lesser extent but there. If you could map that part of our psyche in brain science and observe how it affects the other parts of the psyche in schitzophrenic patients, I bet your answer would be there, as well as any answer to mind-control, though if we're talking about mind-control instead of just inserting ideas to your head, mind-control as in directing what you want, need and so on... then it'd affect a larger area of the brain, and that's probably what any possible charged quantum particles shot to your brain would do, unless you pinpoint them to a certain location which might be difficult... I'd imagine it's difficult enough to aim the possible mind-control gun to your head at all if you're moving there's much room in speculation for that. But if it would work similiarly to a generically broadcasted radiowave, like from the radio stations, then it'd affect more things than just your "powerful and compelling imagination" part of your psyche.

Unless it was designed to affect only parts in a certain chemical state in your brain... I'm bad at physics so dont know if they could do that, let alone build something like this, but that would likely allow them to limit what parts of your psyche the mind-control gun affected.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Mikko-kun

[dontworryaboutit]

You are in luck, I've been saying aliens are behind it, since the first post!

Unfortunately I disagree with the second half of the statement though, I am pretty sure that the CIA/KGB feverishly worked to reverse engineer a phenomenon they witnessed (or was witnessed by Paperclip scientists) during the Cold War.. leaving the technology in the completely inept hands of humans also.

I'll cite the shutting down of MK-Ultra by Congress as evidence that it was clearly not shut down.. (smirk)

Also, there's a huge body of literature of the Soviets researching "psychotronics" even until recent times.

haha sounds good then. well atleast your claim gets abit more realistic. i still think your just off on this. progangda is used for a reason (beside the fact that it works) it is basicially mind control. i seen an ad yesterday was a US navy one talking about how well patrolled the seas are and how they are always watching it for any threats (forget the exact detials currently, i habe terrible short term memory) but it was just blantant propoganda against North Korea and an attempt to comfort US Cillivians that they would never be able to shoot a nuke overseas to the US because the navy is always watching. you are right that the goverment is attempting to control peoples mind just not in the way you say

[dontworryaboutit]

No problem, it's my problem (too) if I get offended too easily... I think you have a good head on your shoulders the more of your stuff I read.

I can see where you're from when pointing out the lack of understanding to quantum physics and the human brain... if we could understand better the relation between all sorts of radiowaves and quantum-level influences on brains, other than "put it in a micro wave and it fries", we might be able to discuss it in a bit more in-depth sense from the earthly materia's point of view. If someone can shed more light there, I'd be very interested to hear, although I wont be a good contributor to that field.

I've just observed how we people work, and take other people's observations always with your grain of salt, that's how they should be taken if you ask me.. but, I've observed that the part of our psyche where limits between things tend to blur, can have many functions. It can function as a source of empathy (borders between "I feel" and "you feel" blurring), source of illusions (borders between real and something on your mind blurring, this kind of illusion is also at work when you dance or act or do art of any kind where you do less "real" things).. that part of our psyche is one prime candidate for psychosis and schitzophrenia in my field, but it's also a part of our psyche through which we are said to be able to enhance our perception. By enhancing our perception I mean seeing the future, seeing and hearing ghosts, dream-visions, premonitions in your dreams, all kinds of things... it's a very debatable matter whether we believe in them and whether we have evidence of them, I can't provide the evidence but that part of our psyche, as far as I see it, it can be a passageway to both madness and higher things, and even if you believe in the possiblity of the latter too, which I believe in, it may only make it harder to distinquish between the two in some cases. Partially because there tends to be an effort from the person suffering from symptoms to retain contact with the earthly reality, retain contact and functionality in our earthly reality, so it may sever whatever cord there was to some possible higher level of perception and leave the person with make-believes. You probably know which part of the psyche I am talking about, the too-vivid imagination, it's easy to contact, but can be very hard to handle if you let it go berserk and dont keep your feet on the ground.

I believe that is a possibility, but can't say it's a sure thing, far from that.. my main reason to give it a level of possibility is that I believe in the possibility of the higher levels of perception in us, as it's happened to me too to a lesser extent but there. If you could map that part of our psyche in brain science and observe how it affects the other parts of the psyche in schitzophrenic patients, I bet your answer would be there, as well as any answer to mind-control, though if we're talking about mind-control instead of just inserting ideas to your head, mind-control as in directing what you want, need and so on... then it'd affect a larger area of the brain, and that's probably what any possible charged quantum particles shot to your brain would do, unless you pinpoint them to a certain location which might be difficult... I'd imagine it's difficult enough to aim the possible mind-control gun to your head at all if you're moving there's much room in speculation for that. But if it would work similiarly to a generically broadcasted radiowave, like from the radio stations, then it'd affect more things than just your "powerful and compelling imagination" part of your psyche.

sorry for the double post but want to keep this discussion with mikko-kun seperate

great post! i agree completley with an outside source inserting something inrelation to quantum physics and the workings of the brain. you show great insight into what you think of a person psyche and i agree there are many weird things from people intutions, to visions. as to not steal this topic between ourselves my beilieve is that we cycle through our lives over and over again. live them out die and are reborn again with no memory of doing it all before. to me this help explain deja vu and other weird things in life where you knew something was going to happen or knew how to do something you really shouldnt. do i really believe that well physics tells me time is a straight line that just keeps going so right there my theory is flawed but my beilief makes me feel better about death and provides a form of hope or excitement to see what really happens when its time to go. truly i am a young person who is only really beginning to understand life. i feel i have understood more about it in the last 2-3 years than i ever did as a child (i guess thats what growing up is lol) and in regards to schitzophrenic people from what ive experimented with in regards to physchedlic drugs hallucinations are very powerful things and can very much effect a person outlook on life, i have no doubt a prolonged series of hallucinations even if the person can distingush that they are indeed not real will have a very negative effect on a pshycological and lead them to believe some very crazy things..

[scowl]

What right do you have to claim astrology as invalid, if I dont have the right to claim it has some well-founded basis to the reality we live in?

There have been many scientific studies of every level of astrology. James Randi has covered several of them in his books. Astrology not only doesn't work but has no consistent practice. That means as soon as one astrologer is proved a fraud, another one pops up and says they have a better understand of astrology. When their techniques don't work, yet another pops up and says their techniques work. And so it goes.

If you know of any astrologers who are successful, by all means send them to James Randi. He will pay them a million dollars if they can prove their abilities work under scientific conditions.

[Mikko-kun]

I dont care for this Randi and his money. The attitute stinks all the way here, you know why? Because it's so easy to get a hold of why astrology works, but that doesn't interest him, only the people that use it. Otherwise he wouldn't go around and offer people that kind of money, but spend it instead to gain a better understanding of things by himself, and then make his own case. I've already proven myself that my astrology works, and I'm not unselfish enough to go out of my way to try prove it to someone who doesn't feel like doing the hard bit himself, the hard bit of studying why it works or doesn't work or only works to a certain extent, and also make it easy enough for you to understand... bottom line is that it can bring a lot of clarity to things, and you can argue this too, but there's a ton of people who have been given clarity to their lives through it. Doing that is far more valuable than proving or disproving it in some test which has it's standards set by someone else. Tell me, why my standards aren't good enough for you, when you dont seem to know what my standards are? Why this Randi person is the only one for you who has good standards for you in this matter? And I'm not interested in any merits at all, but in why you think he's a good guy, why are you convinced that only him and not anyone else can bring more clarity into this matter.

It's pretty funny if you put it that way, tons of people there who have done work on the field, and one guy who's not a least bit interested in actually seeing why it doesn't work, but only interested in attacking people's beliefs, or people through their beliefs, that one guy considers himself supreme to them. And the rest of you follow like rats to a whistler-man, looking at the "oh, no one can't prove it to him, a million dollars!!". Authoritarian, superficial, stuck to one's own ideals and world-views... the difference between us?

[dontworryaboutit]

i hate to bring this up and this isnt really the topic to be arguing the bases of astrology but there has been scientific studies to prove this and astrologers were used and asked for there opinion on the tests which they considered fair. it was shown that any connections made were by chance. for some people yes these things are true there horoscope might be dead on. but it is just chance. from what i get from rahndi he is not trying to attack beliefs but offers a way for some astrologist to prove him and others wrong using science and facts. thats not really him being closed minded. he is infact open to it exsiting he just wants someone to prove it on him.

from wikipedia (not a great source i know but i mean neither is really any site)

The Shawn Carlson's double-blind chart matching tests, in which 28 astrologers agreed to match over 100 natal charts to psychological profiles generated by the California Psychological Inventory (CPI) test, is one of the most renowned tests of astrology.^[78][79] The experimental protocol used in Carlson's study was agreed to by a group of physicists and astrologers prior to the actual experiment itself.^[4] Astrologers, nominated by the National Council for Geocosmic Research, acted as the astrological advisors, and helped to ensure, and agreed, that the test was fair.^{[79]:117[80]:420} They also chose 26 of the 28 astrologers for the tests (the other 2 being interested astrologers who volunteered afterwards) themselves.^[80]:420 The astrologers came from both Europe and the United states.^[79]:117 The astrologers helped to draw up the central proposition of natal astrology to be tested.^[80]:419 Published in Nature in 1985, the study found that predictions based on natal astrology were no better than chance, and that the testing "clearly refutes the astrological hypothesis".^[80]

this seems like an extremely fair test )using astrological advisors and many astrologers from all over showing different practise methods. these failed to produce any results better than chance.

astrology was thought to be meaningful at a time but as science progressed it was proven as nothing more than chance this was a shift in the worlds view. it no longer was science. things like this happen all the time science and theories are meant to be tested and if proven wrong so be it, that is how the world advances. if you believe it go right ahead to continue your practise of it and dont let people bother you when they think it is silly or anything, do what makes you happy. but i think thats enough about astrology for a mind control topic.

[Mikko-kun]

Aye, that's enough out of it. It hasn't been proved obsolete though... I'll show it to you in a blog soon.

[NiteMarcher]

[Quaentum]

I dont care for this Randi and his money. The attitute stinks all the way here, you know why? Because it's so easy to get a hold of why astrology works, but that doesn't interest him, only the people that use it. Otherwise he wouldn't go around and offer people that kind of money, but spend it instead to gain a better understanding of things by himself, and then make his own case. I've already proven myself that my astrology works, and I'm not unselfish enough to go out of my way to try prove it to someone who doesn't feel like doing the hard bit himself, the hard bit of studying why it works or doesn't work or only works to a certain extent, and also make it easy enough for you to understand... bottom line is that it can bring a lot of clarity to things, and you can argue this too, but there's a ton of people who have been given clarity to their lives through it. Doing that is far more valuable than proving or disproving it in some test which has it's standards set by someone else. Tell me, why my standards aren't good enough for you, when you dont seem to know what my standards are? Why this Randi person is the only one for you who has good standards for you in this matter? And I'm not interested in any merits at all, but in why you think he's a good guy, why are you convinced that only him and not anyone else can bring more clarity into this matter.

It's pretty funny if you put it that way, tons of people there who have done work on the field, and one guy who's not a least bit interested in actually seeing why it doesn't work, but only interested in attacking people's beliefs, or people through their beliefs, that one guy considers himself supreme to them. And the rest of you follow like rats to a whistler-man, looking at the "oh, no one can't prove it to him, a million dollars!!". Authoritarian, superficial, stuck to one's own ideals and world-views... the difference between us?

James Randi has offered the money for anyone who can prove it works. Now don't you think that if it did work there wouldn't be thousands of people vying to get that money? Yet there are none. It has nothing to do with attitude but that there is no evidence it does work.

[Quaentum]

[media=]

[/media]

The origin of psychological warfare goes back 2000 - 2500 years. It didn't begin with the Nazi's

Operation paperclip officially began in August 1945 not in 1946 and the CIA was formed by the National Security Act of 1947, almost two years after paperclip began so the CIA wouldn't have overseen the early scientists.

Most importantly is a statement by Ewen Cameron concerning MKUltra: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Ewen_Cameron

After one test he noted: "Although the patient was prepared by both prolonged sensory isolation (35 days) and by repeated depatterning, and although she received 101 days of positive driving, no favourable results were obtained."

Pretty much shows they never developed mind control.

[WoIverine]

Chemical substances are also a factor.

[prometheuslocke]

The origin of psychological warfare goes back 2000 - 2500 years. It didn't begin with the Nazi's

Operation paperclip officially began in August 1945 not in 1946 and the CIA was formed by the National Security Act of 1947, almost two years after paperclip began so the CIA wouldn't have overseen the early scientists.

Most importantly is a statement by Ewen Cameron concerning MKUltra: http://en.wikipedia....ld_Ewen_Cameron

Pretty much shows they never developed mind control.

the only thing that your quote shows is an asinine doctor using sensory deprivation torture could not produce mind control patients. it says nothing about any other methods or the program as a whole. if you look in Russian research and literature into the same subject you will see the went about it much more humanely with much more success.

If you believe United States government propaganda that the Russian scientific community was so far advance of ours that we were unable to keep up, maybe you should look at who won the war.

[Quaentum]

the only thing that your quote shows is an asinine doctor using sensory deprivation torture could not produce mind control patients. it says nothing about any other methods or the program as a whole. if you look in Russian research and literature into the same subject you will see the went about it much more humanely with much more success.

If you believe United States government propaganda that the Russian scientific community was so far advance of ours that we were unable to keep up, maybe you should look at who won the war.

Good thing you didn't look at the page about Cameron I linked or you might have been better informed before replying and you wouldn't want that.

Which war would that be? The cold war? So you are seriously saying mind control won us the cold war? If so then answer this. If mind control is so effective why did we send thousands of troops to Afghanistan and Iraq and end up with thousands of dead soldiers when they could have just used mind control to have those close to Hussein and Bin Laden kill them?