Mind Control. It's been here the whole time.

[Quaentum]

Great. First, my contention is that humanity has not had access to this technology until recent times, probably sometime between 1960 and 2000; if you listen to my theory, I think it was put into effect in 1984, and that is why Orwell chose that title. The common logic that he inverted his year of writing does not make sense, because it was changed three times, from 1980, to 1982, to 1984. I believe this was done.. for a reason.. to send a message to people that see that it has become a reality. Perhaps the technology was put in place over that four year period, for use by our government. It was heavily investigated not only in Nazi Germany, but in postwar Russia, UK, and the US. The mind control research programs that happened immediately after the war yielded an answer, that much should be obvious -- Sirhan Sirhan, Mark David Chapman, John Hinkley...all show signs of being actual Manchurian Candidates.

Second, when you are discussing mind control technology, you certainly would not be telling the masses about it, and if you were an Orwellian dictator, you would be rolling it out and using it against the population as a whole. This is exactly what I contend is happening. Honestly, I'm trying to save your freedom here, and you are railing on me for no reason.

Counting 1984 to the present, there have been 82 revolutions and rebellions in the world. If mind control existed none of those would have ever occurred

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_revolutions_and_rebellions

Yes the mind control research of MK-Ultra revealed an answer. That it didn't work despite subjects being exposed to multiple types of methods over as much as 3 months of time. The doctor even indicated as much (In a link I previously provided).

I am not railing on you. In my previous post I showed how your claims are quite like the variety of fringe claims that are out there and the problems there are with those types of claims. Anyone making those types of claims, whether it be mind control, alien visitation or time travelers making trips to the past with a 386 computer from the 70's should expect a certain amount of debate in the threads they start. It is on the shoulders of the person making the claims to supply the evidence and those knowledgeable about what is presented as evidence can attempt to point out any errors in what the evidence is presented as if that is an inaccurate presentation (EX: The Dendra Light)

Let's look at the world around us. The United States is committing crimes internationally, starting wars to steal oil and drugs, supporting international organized crime both domestically and abroad. At the same time, they are destroying our civil liberties, those guaranteed by the constitution, from the 1st, 2nd, 4th ... all those amendments have been restricted to the point that they are virtually non-existent, or on the way there. There's a significant number of people that think things like 9/11 and Sandy Hook were false flag attacks. There's also a significant amount of evidence that the government was complicit, in at least a coverup on 9/11 -- the SEC investigation into trades against AA and UA in the days just prior to the attacks was not only shut down, but all evidence collected was shredded. They found out who knew, and it made them shut it down... hmm.. where did it get traced back to? The former director of the CIA heading up Deutsche Bank. After that... who knows. (http://www.foreignpo...nsider-trading/)

What is happening about it? People post complaints on Facebook, and protest --- and then wind up getting arrested.

We live in a hidden dictatorship today, and nobody does anything about it.

Maybe they're scared... or maybe they're being mind controlled not to take action.

We've revolted before over less... taxes? I think it's not fear.

Yes let's look at the U.S. Remember that whichever political party is in power wants to stay in power. Reagan, a Republican was president. If mind control existed, there would never again have been a Democrat as President and all the Democrats in the Senate, Congress, etc... would have been ousted in future elections. Further, when you consider how corrupt politicians are (Power Corrupts) we would not be in a Constitutional Monarchy as we have been for over 230 years but in a dictatorship and no one would be complaining about it.

The fact that there are revolts, we do not live in a dictatorship (term limits definitely show we are not in a dictatorship), people can complain and you are actually writing this and weren't mind controlled to keep you from posting more than the original post are all indicators that mind control doesn't exist.

[prometheuslocke]

Of course you do. You don't stop to think that a writer plays around with ideas until one sits right. According to you, everything has to have a reason.

I never said everything has a reason, you are making things up. This particular writer and his work, to me, are very prescient. For that reason, I attribute more external influence to him and his surroundings than other things.

Solutions to a problem that doesn't exist. You don't need mind control for the events of the 20th century to have unfolded.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mine. I find it unfathomable that the Nazi Party could have had so much public support for their atrocities at a time when they were clearly oppressing a significant percentage of the population, and committing open genocide. Before you jump on me, I'm talking about an alien influence during that time period.

If you research, the concentration camps were doing a significant amount of research into mind control, check out Menege and his link to MK-Ultra. I believe they were doing it for a reason, because at the very top, they knew what kind of help they were getting from Hitler's "dark influence."

You mean like the film. The fictional film.

And again, this is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. It isn't enough that some people aren't mentally with-it as it were - they have to be controlled by the government. These things - assassinations - happen, it doesn't mean mind control exists.

You have a bad habit of calling factual things fiction. Yes, the movie is fiction. It's title is pervasively used as an adjective to describe products of programs like MK-Ultra and Monarch.

Read about the assassins, their stories.

Sirhan Sirhan specifically said he was a mind control victim, a product of Monarch.

Mark David Chapman heard voices in his head, and believed he spoke to God, and was tempted by Satan. He seems to have contracted schizophrenia late in life, something that doesn't make sense biologically. His description of the actual day of the assassination reeks of mind control.

Hinkley was a family friend of the Bush family. His brother was set to have dinner with them the day after the attempted assassination. Bush, if you don't know was the former director of the CIA. It is my contention that these are "frame jobs" to make it look like the CIA was using technology which they had recently perfected.

The use of religion, to me, is a signature of this alien force. It is blatant in the case of Chapman.

Nope, you're railed against because you're ideas make no sense and because you completely misuse science. Your posts follow the same pattern from conspiracy theorists we see here all the time, you just fill in the different blanks with different ideas.

You, and pretty much everyone else here has no refutation of my claims. All you do is say "This is wrong." You have no reason behind your statements, at all. Non-substantive refutations from laymen will be summarily ignored from here on out. You see a pattern that does not exist, that is a sign of delusion.

I am specifically trying to show evidence why the "accepted norm" is incorrect. Refuting that by saying "this is not the accepted norm" is illogical and not worth discussing.

A non sequitur. You're taking random things that happen in the world, joining and dots and seeing whatever result you want to.

To say that the perception of government run false flag operations cannot be joined with logic is ... ignorant. I am talking about public perception, my comment is clear. There are people who believe both events were perpetrated by the USA in order to control popular opinion.

Edited March 19, 2013 by prometheuslocke

[prometheuslocke]

Counting 1984 to the present, there have been 82 revolutions and rebellions in the world. If mind control existed none of those would have ever occurred

http://en.wikipedia...._and_rebellions

Yes the mind control research of MK-Ultra revealed an answer. That it didn't work despite subjects being exposed to multiple types of methods over as much as 3 months of time. The doctor even indicated as much (In a link I previously provided).

I'm not sure of your logic. I see it the exact opposite. If the USA and UK, for instance, had mind control, they could use it to topple any foreign government who opposed them, without starting a war. The sheer number of revolutions is proof of the exact opposite.

I am not railing on you. In my previous post I showed how your claims are quite like the variety of fringe claims that are out there and the problems there are with those types of claims. Anyone making those types of claims, whether it be mind control, alien visitation or time travelers making trips to the past with a 386 computer from the 70's should expect a certain amount of debate in the threads they start. It is on the shoulders of the person making the claims to supply the evidence and those knowledgeable about what is presented as evidence can attempt to point out any errors in what the evidence is presented as if that is an inaccurate presentation (EX: The Dendra Light)

My problem is this is not debate. Simply saying "quantum physics cannot do this" despite the fact that I've shown you actual performed experiments (as opposed to "thought expiraments' which they've been called numerous times, showing nobody read the actual links..) that refute well known theorem's of quantum mechanics.

Specifically the No-communication theorem, and non-causality have not been proven, and many scientists agree that they could be invalid.

Yes let's look at the U.S. Remember that whichever political party is in power wants to stay in power. Reagan, a Republican was president. If mind control existed, there would never again have been a Democrat as President and all the Democrats in the Senate, Congress, etc... would have been ousted in future elections. Further, when you consider how corrupt politicians are (Power Corrupts) we would not be in a Constitutional Monarchy as we have been for over 230 years but in a dictatorship and no one would be complaining about it.

The fact that there are revolts, we do not live in a dictatorship (term limits definitely show we are not in a dictatorship), people can complain and you are actually writing this and weren't mind controlled to keep you from posting more than the original post are all indicators that mind control doesn't exist.

What if democracy were all a facade, used to create the perception of choice and freedom. What if every Presidential election for the last 30 years, and both parties were really controlled by the same entity. If you look at domestic and foreign policy from Bush to Obama, you will see that his "change" turned out to be... continuation of the exact same policies. We are still in Afghanistan. We are still in Iraq. We still have the Patriot Act. Now we also have the NDAA. We still have Carnivore. We still have HUGE bank bailouts.

It didn't change, it got worse, and we switched parties. The party choice is an illusion.

Edited March 19, 2013 by prometheuslocke

[prometheuslocke]

The fact that there are revolts, we do not live in a dictatorship (term limits definitely show we are not in a dictatorship), people can complain and you are actually writing this and weren't mind controlled to keep you from posting more than the original post are all indicators that mind control doesn't exist.

I've been fairly consistent in stating that humanity has not had access to this technology until after WW2, I personally believe it was not available until the 70's. I believe its acquisition was a trojan horse, something given to us in order to cause the population to revolt against the "coming NWO" and instead embrace an alien force which could miraculously save us... from their own technology.

The fact that I can speak does not mean the technology doesn't exist, and it doesn't mean it's not being used on both of us. It might mean we are victims of different entities.

The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.

-Revelation 9:9

Edited March 19, 2013 by prometheuslocke

[scowl]

I've been fairly consistent in stating that humanity has not had access to this technology until after WW2, I personally believe it was not available until the 70's. I believe its acquisition was a trojan horse, something given to us in order to cause the population to revolt against the "coming NWO" and instead embrace an alien force which could miraculously save us... from their own technology.

Oh please tell us more about the New World Order and the alien force! You're suddenly beginning to make sense!

[prometheuslocke]

Oh please tell us more about the New World Order and the alien force! You're suddenly beginning to make sense!

I was just about to. This is my linking of the prophesy of Revelation to our current time. I'm of the belief we've been in the "End Times" since ... around WW2 (what a surprise).

Here, the fifth Seal: http://unduecoercion...-blind-eye.html, http://unduecoercion...electronic.html

and here, The first four Seals: http://unduecoercion.blogspot.com/2012/12/broken-seals-of-revelation.html

If you wanted to see it, you could.

Edited March 19, 2013 by prometheuslocke

[scowl]

See people, it all makes perfect sense now! And you all thought promqueenlocke was crazy!

[Harte]

My problem is this is not debate. Simply saying "quantum physics cannot do this" despite the fact that I've shown you actual performed experiments (as opposed to "thought expiraments' which they've been called numerous times, showing nobody read the actual links..) that refute well known theorem's of quantum mechanics.

I offered to provide you with some of the mathematics that state that this cannot be done with entanglement. To borrow a phrase from you - "It's all probably over your head."

You have offered no evidence whatsoever that classical information can be transmitted using the FTL quantum state-type of information transfer. I realize that it might look like you did, but you have to consider what is required at the recieving end - non-observation that results in observation, and at the sending end - forcing a quantum state on a particle.

Specifically the No-communication theorem, and non-causality have not been proven, and many scientists agree that they could be invalid.

The few people in the field that think this may be possible are thinking about some sort of work-around that utilizes entanglement along with other processes. This might be possible, but the only thing that can be communicated through entanglement itself is the quantum state.

This is the second time I've asked this (and no answer yet): Why do you insist on QM processes over EM? Electomagnetics can do everything that you claim entanglement can (but entanglement can't.) Do you have a specific reason for needing FTL communication in this, or are you merely resisting admitting that the vast amounts of text (and time) you've invested in the entanglement idea was wasted?

Harte

[prometheuslocke]

I offered to provide you with some of the mathematics that state that this cannot be done with entanglement. To borrow a phrase from you - "It's all probably over your head."

You have offered no evidence whatsoever that classical information can be transmitted using the FTL quantum state-type of information transfer. I realize that it might look like you did, but you have to consider what is required at the recieving end - non-observation that results in observation, and at the sending end - forcing a quantum state on a particle.

The few people in the field that think this may be possible are thinking about some sort of work-around that utilizes entanglement along with other processes. This might be possible, but the only thing that can be communicated through entanglement itself is the quantum state.

This is the second time I've asked this (and no answer yet): Why do you insist on QM processes over EM? Electomagnetics can do everything that you claim entanglement can (but entanglement can't.) Do you have a specific reason for needing FTL communication in this, or are you merely resisting admitting that the vast amounts of text (and time) you've invested in the entanglement idea was wasted?

Harte

Popper's Experiment specifically disproves entanglement. If you are going to link me to a proof that comes to the conclusion that communication is not possible because of a "statistical probability," don't bother. As far as I know this is the only one that exists. Meanwhile, probabilities are worthless when dealing with near infinite time to overcome the obstacle. We do not know everything about the universe, and its more than likely what we do not know will prove that communication is absolutely possible via entanglement.

There is a significant body of mind control victims, for them, electromagnetic shielding is ineffective. This is my most significant reason for believing it cannot be caused by radio communication.

Edited March 19, 2013 by prometheuslocke

[scowl]

There is a significant body of mind control victims, for them, electromagnetic shielding is ineffective. This is my most significant reason for believing it cannot be caused by radio communication.

And this is why everyone else believes it's caused by schizophrenia.

[prometheuslocke]

And this is why everyone else believes it's caused by schizophrenia.

"Everyone else" could be wrong. There are too many commonalities between these victims stories, too much unique information delivered by the entity affecting them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia#History

Schizophrenia practically did not exist prior to the 19th century, and modern psychology and psychiatry are based more on conjecture and 'reasoning' than they are on modern science. If you cannot find a physical cause for a mental disorder in neuroscience, I am more likely to believe that it is not a disorder caused by the human brain. Additionally, it is a disease whose onset is usually after the full development of the adult brain. Were there to be a neurological cause for the disease, it is highly unlikely that it would not be recognized during development.

[scowl]

"Everyone else" could be wrong. There are too many commonalities between these victims stories, too much unique information delivered by the entity affecting them.

That's exactly what you would expect from someone suffering from a neurological disease.

http://en.wikipedia....phrenia#History

Schizophrenia practically did not exist prior to the 19th century

But it did exist before the 19th century, so your theory is wrong.

[prometheuslocke]

That's exactly what you would expect from someone suffering from a neurological disease.

But it did exist before the 19th century, so your theory is wrong.

Excellent argument. I especially enjoy the way you said absolutely nothing, and ignored my entire argument. I didn't propose a "theory" but I'm going to do so now.

No matter what I say, you and your three friends will troll this thread and tell me "you are wrong" over, and over again until I stop posting here. You will provide no evidence or argument, and in fact, will do nothing but take apart little pieces of what I say, and try to turn them around on me without using any logic or reasoning.

After that, you will feel like you did the forum a favor, because now you can go back to living in the world you desire, rather than the one that is actually all around you. You can continue to think that government is good, and protecting you. That there is no possible way that anything in the universe that you do not personally understand completely is occurring. That you have figured out all there is to know, and successfully destroy any attempt to show you something that is outside of your world view.

It's humorous to me that you believe you can take the first five words of a paragraph, put the word did in bold, and come to the conclusion that the entire paragraph must be wrong because of it.

I just had a premonition: "scowl: it was ten words not five, you are wrong about everything. In fact, you are now wrong two times over."

Edited March 19, 2013 by prometheuslocke

[scowl]

Excellent argument. I especially enjoy the way you said absolutely nothing, and ignored my entire argument. I didn't propose a "theory" but I'm going to do so now.

You proposed your theory several posts ago.

No matter what I say, you and your three friends will troll this thread and tell me "you are wrong" over, and over again until I stop posting here. You will provide no evidence or argument, and in fact, will do nothing but take apart little pieces of what I say, and try to turn them round on me without using any logic or reasoning.

By all means, show us your evidence.

After that, you will feel like you did the forum a favor, because now you can go back to living in the world you desire, rather than the one that is actually all around you. You can continue to think that government is good, and protecting you. That there is no possible way that anything in the universe that you do not personally understand completely is occurring. That you have figured out all there is to know, and successfully destroy any attempt to show you something that is outside of your world view.

Of course you never considered that we are part of the Illuminati controlling people's minds for our own entertainment and we "troll" boards like this searching for people like you who have discovered our precious secret.

It's humorous to me that you believe you can take the first five words of a paragraph, put the word did in bold, and come to the conclusion that the entire paragraph must be wrong because of it.

Yes, I did. Everything in that paragraph was based on that single incorrect assumption.

I just had a premonition: "scowl: it was ten words not five, you are wrong about everything. In fact, you are now wrong two times over."

Yes, see how easily I can twist your thought process into saying things like that so people will think you're suffering from schizophrenia?

[prometheuslocke]

I see your post count is not large enough to have been completely taken over by the dark side. Run while you can!

[Harte]

Popper's Experiment specifically disproves entanglement.

I think you mean that you believe it disproves the no-communication theorem.

Sorry, but it does not. The no-communication Theorem is called a theorem precisely because it has been proven mathematically. You can find a proof of it on wiki.

There is a significant body of mind control victims, for them, electromagnetic shielding is ineffective. This is my most significant reason for believing it cannot be caused by radio communication.

So, going by your own made-up definition of mind control, it can't be electromagnetic.

Well, at least it's an answer.

Look at it from the proper perspective.

Hypothesis: This is not schizophrenia or delusions, this is mind control.

Testing the hypothesis: Put these mind control victims in a Faraday cage.

Analyze the data collected: Nope, their minds are still controlled

Communicate the results: Mind control must involve entanglement.

See any flaw?

Harte

[Quaentum]

I'm not sure of your logic. I see it the exact opposite. If the USA and UK, for instance, had mind control, they could use it to topple any foreign government who opposed them, without starting a war. The sheer number of revolutions is proof of the exact opposite.

Not all the revolutions were good for the U.S. and if mind control existed, those types of revolutions would have been quelled before they began

Think about Iraq. Intelligence reports that came out just before we sent troops to Iraq indicated Hussein's own people were on the verge of revolt. If we had mind control we would simply have used it to topple his regime instead of sending in tens of thousands of troops resulting in the deaths of thousands of military personnel. The fact that we sent in troops is clear evidence there is no mind control.

My problem is this is not debate. Simply saying "quantum physics cannot do this" despite the fact that I've shown you actual performed experiments (as opposed to "thought expiraments' which they've been called numerous times, showing nobody read the actual links..) that refute well known theorem's of quantum mechanics.

Specifically the No-communication theorem, and non-causality have not been proven, and many scientists agree that they could be invalid.

I have, for the most part, purposefully avoided the scientific aspect of the debate because of lack of knowledge in that area, concentrating mostly on applying critical reasoning to your statements of the non-technical aspects

What if democracy were all a facade, used to create the perception of choice and freedom. What if every Presidential election for the last 30 years, and both parties were really controlled by the same entity. If you look at domestic and foreign policy from Bush to Obama, you will see that his "change" turned out to be... continuation of the exact same policies. We are still in Afghanistan. We are still in Iraq. We still have the Patriot Act. Now we also have the NDAA. We still have Carnivore. We still have HUGE bank bailouts.

It didn't change, it got worse, and we switched parties. The party choice is an illusion.

Yes we are still in Afghanistan and Iraq but we wouldn't be there if mind control existed as there would have been no need to send in the troops.

Things did change under the various presidents. Sometimes it resulted in good things for the U.S. sometimes not but it never remained exactly the same. The wars for example were disastrous to the economy, something that wouldn't have happened if mind control existed.

It matters not whether something like that could be possible from a technological aspect. What matters is looking at the world over the last 30 years and seeing that things would not have gone, nor would they be the way they are if mind control existed.

[+DieChecker]

I believe its acquisition was a trojan horse, something given to us in order to cause the population to revolt against the "coming NWO" and instead embrace an alien force which could miraculously save us... from their own technology.

I wish they would just come out into the Open already then.

Schizophrenia practically did not exist prior to the 19th century,

That is because previous to that time, they called it something else. Just as with Autism. The autistic used to be just called "Slow" and "Idiot" and "Fool". The schizophrenics used to simply be called "Mad", or Insane, and locked up behind bars.

[Quaentum]

I've been fairly consistent in stating that humanity has not had access to this technology until after WW2, I personally believe it was not available until the 70's. I believe its acquisition was a trojan horse, something given to us in order to cause the population to revolt against the "coming NWO" and instead embrace an alien force which could miraculously save us... from their own technology.

The fact that I can speak does not mean the technology doesn't exist, and it doesn't mean it's not being used on both of us. It might mean we are victims of different entities.

The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.

-Revelation 9:9

There is no evidence that the NWO as believed in by the fringe exists. If you say the mind control is hiding the existence of the NWO it would be an invalid statement based on the existence of posts about the NWO. The NWO is not real but nothing more than a tool, much like government conspiracy, used to try to give validity to something that otherwise doesn't have any.

As far as aliens saving us. Humans love to tinker and improve on things. It would be no different with mind control. What we received would not be what it is now and the aliens would have no defense against something that is not their science anymore.

Scripture does not necessarily refer to anything within this thread since each person can interpret it to mean what they want. Personally I see a star falling to the Earth as a meteor not a spaceship and there is no way to say that my view is invalid and your valid.

[prometheuslocke]

I think you mean that you believe it disproves the no-communication theorem.

Sorry, but it does not. The no-communication Theorem is called a theorem precisely because it has been proven mathematically. You can find a proof of it on wiki.

thanks for correcting me. the rest of my statement is still pertinent, i do not think you understand the proof, and honestly neither do I. Regardless, the commentary says its based on statistics, and I do not think an improbability equates to an impossibility... especially when there is experimental evidence to prove that communication is possible. I will direct you, again, to the wikipedia page for Popper's Experiment, specifically the section titled "Faster Than Light Communication".

So, going by your own made-up definition of mind control, it can't be electromagnetic.

Well, at least it's an answer.

Look at it from the proper perspective.

Hypothesis: This is not schizophrenia or delusions, this is mind control.

Testing the hypothesis: Put these mind control victims in a Faraday cage.

Analyze the data collected: Nope, their minds are still controlled

Communicate the results: Mind control must involve entanglement.

See any flaw?

Harte

I understand how you are looking at it. I do not agree that just because it cannot be electromagnetic, that it is not possible to remotely modify electronics. Two hundred years ago there was no electromagnetic communication. If you showed someone a cell phone, they would have thought it was magic.

[prometheuslocke]

I wish they would just come out into the Open already then.

That is because previous to that time, they called it something else. Just as with Autism. The autistic used to be just called "Slow" and "Idiot" and "Fool". The schizophrenics used to simply be called "Mad", or Insane, and locked up behind bars.

Autism has been shown to have a congenital cause. The onset is from birth, and its effects are very well correlated. Schizophrenia is like a "lump all" for things that psychiatry does not understand. I believe it is unscientifically diagnosed, and symptoms are not well correlated between cases. There has been no genetic marker identified, it supposedly is contracted late in life (after full neural development, which is .. illogical), and everyone's symptoms are different.

Further, most actual neurological diseases are due to degeneration or malfunction of neurons. The symptoms of schizophrenia, voices being heard, would be very difficult to produce from a malfunction, and impossible from degeneration. Organized sound, like language, and their correlating subvocal thought are complex... the idea that it could be created from a malfunction is like saying you could sit in front of an untuned TV and see a coherent picture forming.

Edited March 19, 2013 by prometheuslocke

[prometheuslocke]

There is no evidence that the NWO as believed in by the fringe exists. If you say the mind control is hiding the existence of the NWO it would be an invalid statement based on the existence of posts about the NWO. The NWO is not real but nothing more than a tool, much like government conspiracy, used to try to give validity to something that otherwise doesn't have any.

As far as aliens saving us. Humans love to tinker and improve on things. It would be no different with mind control. What we received would not be what it is now and the aliens would have no defense against something that is not their science anymore.

Scripture does not necessarily refer to anything within this thread since each person can interpret it to mean what they want. Personally I see a star falling to the Earth as a meteor not a spaceship and there is no way to say that my view is invalid and your valid.

I believe the NWO is hiding itself, in some form. I do believe that individual governments obviously serve a purpose, however I see many instances where international cooperation has been detrimental to individual nations, though it still continues. I guess you could call it diplomacy, however in some instances it is to the detriment of all nations involved. For instance, the war on drugs is an international effort across the globe, and in reality, the only beneficiary is organized crime. Nations are toppled as a result, and the "international coalition" installs their own puppet governments. Drugs continue to flow. Domestically, there is no shortage of supply, despite trillions of dollars being spent... why? The war on drugs is in effect nothing more than a war on the competitors of the CIA and their allies.

I'm assuming these aliens are so far advanced technologically, that even if we were given samples/artifacts/wreckage, we would never be able to overcome them.

I don't flaw your interpretation. I assume you are suggesting the "key to the shaft of the abyss" is a cataclysmic event similar to the one that destroyed the dinosaurs. OK..

I happen to like my interpretation more, because to me "key" has a connotation of opening a door, allowing something to happen, though it does not have to be opened. To me, a technology transfer of some kind makes a lot of sense.

Please don't shoot me for using a fictional concept to further my argument But: http://fringepedia.net/wiki/ZFT

Destruction through thermonuclear holocaust also fits the bill.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion though.

Edited March 19, 2013 by prometheuslocke

[prometheuslocke]

Not all the revolutions were good for the U.S. and if mind control existed, those types of revolutions would have been quelled before they began

Think about Iraq. Intelligence reports that came out just before we sent troops to Iraq indicated Hussein's own people were on the verge of revolt. If we had mind control we would simply have used it to topple his regime instead of sending in tens of thousands of troops resulting in the deaths of thousands of military personnel. The fact that we sent in troops is clear evidence there is no mind control.

Just re-read this, and wanted to respond to this point.

If all our enemies instantly beat their swords into ploughshares, as we approached their borders, it would be very obvious that the government was using mind control to do so. Skirmishes and small wars are fought all over the world now, and they serve more than just the purpose of hiding advanced technology (clearly we could be using mini-nukes if we really wanted to wipe a country out).

They allow the government to divert funds to military contractors, and perpetuate a war-time economy which has not ended for any significant period of time since 9/11. Many economists believe that the economy benefits greatly from war mobilization, and the entire facade of international conflict may have been for the sole purpose of continuing to inflate the military industrial complex, as opposed to using funds towards more humanitarian things, like social programs and development of non-weaponizable science.

At the same time, there are many reports of strange behavior in Iraq and Afghanistan, somewhat akin to just laying down their weapons and giving up:

Edited March 20, 2013 by prometheuslocke

[Harte]

thanks for correcting me. the rest of my statement is still pertinent, i do not think you understand the proof, and honestly neither do I. Regardless, the commentary says its based on statistics, and I do not think an improbability equates to an impossibility... especially when there is experimental evidence to prove that communication is possible. I will direct you, again, to the wikipedia page for Popper's Experiment, specifically the section titled "Faster Than Light Communication".

I've already agreed that a work-around might be possible.

Regarding the prrof being based on statistics, it is not.

All of QM is based on probabilities,. however. If you don't believe a thing because it is based on probabilities, then you have no business believing in entanglement at all.

here's what I assume you're talking about:

From this it is argued that, statistically, Bob cannot tell the difference between what Alice did and a random measurement (or whether she did anything at all).

That is from wiki.

The proof is not statistical. It is mathematical. The result is statistical.

Harte

[TheSearcher]

-snip-

At the same time, there are many reports of strange behavior in Iraq and Afghanistan, somewhat akin to just laying down their weapons and giving up:

And do you actually understand why this is? No, the answer is not mind control! The fact that some of the insurgents lay down their weapons and give up at the first opportunity they have, is because they are coerced into fighting by the Taliban. The Taliban either threaten their family or the village they are from, with horrible deaths which are anathema to normal Muslims. Some just can't do it and surrender. The problem here is that the Taliban has these people so scared, that they can virtually make them do anything they want, just out of fear alone.

I've seen the same happen in Africa and Kosovo, when I served there, slightly different form and approach in the method, but the same general idea. Your statement just serves to show that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.