The Incas, explorers of the Pacific

[Harsh86_Patel]

Whats your take on this, one more coincidence? Or just a result of universal human psychology?

500 men toiling for 15 years....who was paying them and sustaining them? This would be an awful waste of time for a primitive hunter gatherer culture.

[Abramelin]

As you can see, the thing was cone shaped, not a square triangle, and as old or maybe older than the GP.

What do you call a waste of time? Something with no direct benefit for the people involved? How do we know they didn't benefit in any way?

[Harsh86_Patel]

As you can see, the thing was cone shaped, not a square triangle, and as old or maybe older than the GP.

What do you call a waste of time? Something with no direct benefit for the people involved? How do we know they didn't benefit in any way?

Don't tell me that you buy that primitive hunter gatherers did this.That is the perception the mainstream has for these people i.e primitive.....for such a primitive people this would be a waste of time.... they might have enjoyed sex and food more then building such huge structures.

[The_Spartan]

Don't tell me that you buy that primitive hunter gatherers did this.That is the perception the mainstream has for these people i.e primitive.....for such a primitive people this would be a waste of time.... they might have enjoyed sex and food more then building such huge structures.

How would you know whether it is the truth or not?

Were you a Primitive Hunter Gatherer in one of your past incarnations?

Its speculation only.

[Abramelin]

Don't tell me that you buy that primitive hunter gatherers did this.That is the perception the mainstream has for these people i.e primitive.....for such a primitive people this would be a waste of time.... they might have enjoyed sex and food more then building such huge structures.

I didn't say it or even suggest it. As far as I know, they had not been hunter-gatherers for a long time.

[The_Spartan]

Göbekli Tepe wasnt buried in a day or a month or a year.

Each layer has been dated and there is close to 1000 years difference bewteen the 1st layer and the last. Lab-Number Date BP Cal BCE Context Ua-19561 8430 ± 80 7560–7370 enclosure C Ua-19562 8960 ± 85 8280–7970 enclosure B Hd-20025 9452 ± 73 9110–8620 Layer III Hd-20036 9559 ± 53 9130–8800 Layer III

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

And now dont tell me that the "Hunter Gatherer" Culture stayed as Hunter Gatherers for all these 1000 year years.

they might have started as Hunter Gatherers, like every civilization or culture, but they advanced/had to advance technolocially/culturally over the 1000 years.

[Harsh86_Patel]

How would you know whether it is the truth or not?

Were you a Primitive Hunter Gatherer in one of your past incarnations?

Its speculation only.

It is only speculation basis which the Mainstream calls them primitive hunter gatherers.

Were you a sitting with a binocular when they were building this structure to check if it was primitive hunter gatherers building it?

Does it seem like a primitive hunter gatherer group can execute such an organised effort?

Your speculations of them being primitive seems like a primitive speculation.

[The_Spartan]

It is only speculation basis which the Mainstream calls them primitive hunter gatherers.

Were you a sitting with a binocular when they were building this structure to check if it was primitive hunter gatherers building it?

Does it seem like a primitive hunter gatherer group can execute such an organised effort?

Your speculations of them being primitive seems like a primitive speculation.

No. I didnt sit with a binocular but i use what is known as common sense in anlayzing data, which i feel you are lacking.

[Harsh86_Patel]

Göbekli Tepe wasnt buried in a day or a month or a year.

Each layer has been dated and there is close to 1000 years difference bewteen the 1st layer and the last. Lab-Number Date BP Cal BCE Context Ua-19561 8430 ± 80 7560–7370 enclosure C Ua-19562 8960 ± 85 8280–7970 enclosure B Hd-20025 9452 ± 73 9110–8620 Layer III Hd-20036 9559 ± 53 9130–8800 Layer III

http://en.wikipedia....i/Göbekli_Tepe

And now dont tell me that the "Hunter Gatherer" Culture stayed as Hunter Gatherers for all these 1000 year years.

they might have started as Hunter Gatherers, like every civilization or culture, but they advanced/had to advance technolocially/culturally over the 1000 years.

What is your opinion of the people who built it?

Were they primitive hunter gatherers when they built it?

[Harsh86_Patel]

No. I didnt sit with a binocular but i use what is known as common sense in anlayzing data, which i feel you are lacking.

So let me sum up your common sense:

You find a structure of a comparable scale to the GP, then you understand further that it would have taken 500 people 15 years to build it. And what is your deduction?

Ans. They were primitive hunter gatherers.

If what i have written above is right then just say so, i will no more question your common sense.

[The_Spartan]

What is your opinion of the people who built it?

Were they primitive hunter gatherers when they built it?

Since i do refer to academic reports and records, i do believe that they were hunter gatherers once, but they advanced as time passed.

Not primitive as in caveman style. But primitive when compared to the era the last layer was buried.

[The_Spartan]

So let me sum up your common sense:

You find a structure of a comparable scale to the GP, then you understand further that it would have taken 500 people 15 years to build it. And what is your deduction?

Ans. They were primitive hunter gatherers.

If what i have written above is right then just say so, i will no more question your common sense.

No. Building up and covering are two activities with two different efforts.

You still don’t understand that the structures in the original layer are yet to be excavated.

As with any build up or architectural style, it starts simple or primitive and develops as time progresses.

The 1st construct in Gobekli tepe would have been simple.

Why the 1st constructs were buried, is a matter still open to discussion and exploration?

But, there was constructs for each layer, better than the last.

Moving huge blocks of stones up a height is different that erection slabs of stones and carvings.

Burying the constructs also isn’t that time or energy consuming as building the GP.

You have to be an Engineer and a Project manager to assess the time, logistics and manpower required for constructing a GP and constructing & burying a Gobekli Tepe.

Edited May 6, 2013 by The_Spartan

[Abramelin]

What is your opinion of the people who built it?

Were they primitive hunter gatherers when they built it?

I think it was you who started a thread about Göbekli Tepe, and there are several others. I think the current discussion is going to get far off topic.

[The_Spartan]

Yeah. Let us get back to the Incan navy, Hic!!

"Fifteen Incans on the dead man's chest

Yo-ho-ho, and a bottle of Xtabentún!

Drink and the devil had done for the rest

Yo-ho-ho, and a bottle of Xtabentún!"

[Abramelin]

Yeah. Let us get back to the Incan navy, Hic!!

"Fifteen Incans on the dead man's chest

Yo-ho-ho, and a bottle of Xtabentún!

Drink and the devil had done for the rest

Yo-ho-ho, and a bottle of Xtabentún!"

Must be late where you live, lol.

[Abramelin]

OK, I think the next is very ON topic.

Brien Foerster is not my favorite writer (he sees aliens and very advanced technology everywhere), but on this page of his website he offers some interesting ideas:

http://hiddenincatou...he-polynesians/

Though not directly related to this topic, this is also quite interesting:

The early Spanish chronicler Fernando de Montesinos, author of Memorias Antiguas y Historiales del Peru (1642) (Ancient Memories and Histories of Peru) wrote that the early Inca did indeed have at least a hieroglyphic system which was banned by Sapa Inca Pachacutec (also known as Pachacuti Inca Yupanqui) out of the fear that the general public might learn it. The Inca were supposedly generous and kind rulers, supposedly, in many ways, but the public were restricted as to what they could do and learn.

Sariemento Gamboa, upon consulting as assembly of forty-two learned Inca historians recorded the following in reference to the ninth Inca ‘Patchacuti Inca Yupanqui’:

‘…after he had well ascertained the most notable of their ancient histories he had it all painted after its order on large boards, and he placed them in the house of the sun, where the said boards, which were garnished with gold, would be like our libraries, and he appointed learned men who could understand and explain them…’

I remember that on a couple of 16th century drawings/paintings of Inca rulers you can indeed see on their claoks a checkboard like motif filled with what does look like a script.

+++

EDIT:

Not the image I had in my mind, but this one depicting Pachacuti Inca Yupanqui also has these symbols:

Could also be nothing but meaningless decoration, of course.

.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Ah, it was his father, Viracocha Inca:

(paintings by Guamán Poma)

+++

EDIT:

To give you an idea about Foerster's 'cherry picking facts', read what he writes about the Chachapoya, and compare that with what you can read on this Wiki page from which he copied:

http://en.wikipedia....chapoya_culture

.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Abramelin

[The_Spartan]

Some photographs of incan motif quilts

and in this pic below the mayan woman on the left is shown wearing some cloth with a similart pattern

[Abramelin]

The Incan quilts appear to show repeating motifs, and not in a regular way like in decoration.

I leafed a bit through Fernando de Montesinos' "Memorias Antiguas y Historiales del Peru":

http://archive.org/details/memoriasantigua01tolegoog

.... but found nothing yet about these "hieroglyphs"

[Harsh86_Patel]

No. Building up and covering are two activities with two different efforts.

You still don’t understand that the structures in the original layer are yet to be excavated.

As with any build up or architectural style, it starts simple or primitive and develops as time progresses.

The 1st construct in Gobekli tepe would have been simple.

Why the 1st constructs were buried, is a matter still open to discussion and exploration?

But, there was constructs for each layer, better than the last.

Moving huge blocks of stones up a height is different that erection slabs of stones and carvings.

Burying the constructs also isn’t that time or energy consuming as building the GP.

You have to be an Engineer and a Project manager to assess the time, logistics and manpower required for constructing a GP and constructing & burying a Gobekli Tepe.

When i reffered to 500 men taking 15 years , i was reiterating the sillsbury hill link posted by Abe.

You make a good point finally. But only further digs there will tell of what was the level of constructions of the older sites.

Though unless there is a major difference between the styles observed in the upper and lower layers it would be difficult to attribute a prolonged period for it's construction.

[The_Spartan]

You make a good point finally. But only further digs there will tell of what was the level of constructions of the older sites.

Thank you, almighty know it all, i shal lcertainly print and frame your compliement.

Have you actually been on a dig?

I have been and still do go on digs.

Get there, do that and then come.

[Harsh86_Patel]

Back to topic, sorry for the diversion.

[Harsh86_Patel]

Thank you, almighty know it all, i shal lcertainly print and frame your compliement.

Have you actually been on a dig?

I have been and still do go on digs.

Get there, do that and then come.

I have not been on a dig, would be terribly happy to go to one, but i guess will have to bide my time. Though i had taken up Forensics as a subject in college and interestingly a Forensic dig is very similar to an archaeological dig.

Would i find something different then you would at one of these digs? You can tell me what you find and i can give you an interpretation of it based on what i think. We can't be everywhere to see everything for ourselves can we? But i am sure that if you find something on onw of these digs that would prove me wrong, you would surely remind me.

[The_Spartan]

I go on digs over here in UAE, as a volunteer, just for the thrill of it.

Imagine, armed with a trowel, some brushes, finding something out of the ancient past, is such of a thrill.

I was at a dig in ras Al Khaimah, UAE, for graves dating back to 2000 BC, belonging to the Shimal Type Culture, an offshoot of the Umm an-Nar Culture.

I found Pottery Shards, beads and a few bone fragments. The funny thing is that everyone involved in the dig found something or the other.

It was great working at the dig and hope i get further chances.

[Abramelin]

I go on digs over here in UAE, as a volunteer, just for the thrill of it.

Imagine, armed with a trowel, some brushes, finding something out of the ancient past, is such of a thrill.

I was at a dig in ras Al Khaimah, UAE, for graves dating back to 2000 BC, belonging to the Shimal Type Culture, an offshoot of the Umm an-Nar Culture.

I found Pottery Shards, beads and a few bone fragments. The funny thing is that everyone involved in the dig found something or the other.

It was great working at the dig and hope i get further chances.

Great, that's what I alwyas wanted to do !

I once met Chilean archeologists busy at Tiwanaku. LOL, i walked up to them, and asked them some things. But one of them noticed I had a pocketbook written by Sitchin under my arms, and he sighed, said something in Spanish to his colleagues I didn't understand, looked at me quizzically, and then turned around and continued with his work.