Are angels real?

[Mr Walker]

Could you describe her please. Did she appear as something visual? Audible? Or was there a psychic connection?

One night while playing cards with my family, I saw a reflection in a mirror of a woman approaching our front door. she passed slowly in front of our large front windows and came to the corner of the house near the door. She would have been about 2-3 metres behind me, outside the house. I was sitting with my back to her but saw her clearly and for half a minute in the mirror. I went to meet her at the door, but when i got there, there was no one there .

Our house sat on a hill side in farm land and i could see in all directions for many kilometres. No one was about.

Any way when describing the woamn and the strange incident to other people i was told by sevral that her descriptions resembled a well known ghost from a haunted house nearby.

There is a long story and many witnesses to this ghost. In brief the woman was in her forties or so. She wore a long white gown (which turned out ot be a night dress) and a white night cap which held her hair in place She had floated up to our door about a metre fromthe ground by my measurements afterwards (Unless she was 3 metres tall) The house she had haunted for over 100 years burned to the ground in the 1970s.

She stayed in our house for several years and then disappeared.

I found out from research that she had lost about 12 young children over two winters in a diptheria epidemic in the mid 1800s and had hung herself in depression while wearing her night wear. She haunted her house so badly that, for more than100 years, grown men would not go near it at night, and no one would approach it alone, even during the day.

She called out a lot. Her main words were "where are you" and "shut the door" She also cried and sobbed a lot.

I surmise she was looking for her dead children. She never worried me and i felt sorry for her. My wife heard her too but denied this for many years, because her beliefs mean she does not accept the existence of ghosts. Eventually she admitted to me that she heard the ghost, but would not tell anyone else this.

[Zaphod222]

You are completely glossing over all Quantum Physics, and other Sciences that deal with the subject. Black and White is not even black and white, you know?

Do tell us where quantum physics and other sciences deal with angels. I am waiting... but I am not holding my breath.

[Zaphod222]

Well,throughout history there have been thousands of Angelic reported encounters,while I cant recall any FSM or Godzilla incidents,So that not even comes close as an explanation.Sorry,but I dont think I earned a "Good Grief" for that.Just respectfully stating what I believe in.

I dont see how anyone can write it off as vivid imagination,its all left to each individual as whether its real or not,and I just happen to believe.

These "angelic encounters" are reported by whom? By religious believers of course. Once there are enough pastafarians, you will also have plenty of reports of spiritual encounters with the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Which carry exactly the same weight.

What is the difference between, say, Christianity, and Pastafarianism or the belief that Elvis is alive? None, except the numbers of the gullible.

I absolutely do not deny that there are things for which we currently do not have a good explanation. However, using religious gobbledygook as an explanation is a copout.

[Render]

Before I can answer this poll, I need to know how you are defining "real"?

You don't need to know that, just read the article.

Which i did not write btw, im just asking the question the article poses.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Render

[Render]

You are factually wrong.

Your opinion, while honest and logical, is based on your own lack of encounter with an angel.

Well, this is hilarious.

You saying someone is factually wrong because they did not see something is as much factually wrong as you saying they do exist because you believed you saw one.

That's why scientific methods to prove something exist...because "just seeing something" isn't proof, try and understand this simple notion.

[Render]

So, a question to all you believers: What about the Third Man syndrome

The Third Man factor or Third Man syndrome refers to the reported situations where an unseen presence such as a "spirit" provides comfort or support during traumatic experiences. Sir Ernest Shackleton in his book South, described his belief that an incorporeal being joined him and two others during the final leg of their journey. Shackleton wrote, "during that long and racking march of thirty-six hours over the unnamed mountains and glaciers of South Georgia, it seemed to me often that we were four, not three."^[1] His admission resulted in other survivors of extreme hardship coming forward.

The Third Man Factor: How those in dire peril have felt a sudden presence at their side, inspiring them to survive

Thought to be named after the biblical story in which a resurrected Christ appears to two of his disciples on the road to Emmaus, and walks along beside them, it has been experienced by mountaineers, polar explorers, divers, prisoners of war, solo sailors, astronauts, even 9/11 survivors.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1197394/The-Third-Man-Factor-How-dire-peril-felt-sudden-presence-inspiring-survive.html

[Glenville86]

I would have to say yes. You always have a fence with those who believe on one side, those who do not believe on the other side and the ones sitting on the fence who cannot make a decision.

To each their own and I wish the best for all groups.

[Mr Walker]

Well, this is hilarious.

You saying someone is factually wrong because they did not see something is as much factually wrong as you saying they do exist because you believed you saw one.

That's why scientific methods to prove something exist...because "just seeing something" isn't proof, try and understand this simple notion.

I am sorry, but seeing something generally does prove its existence, or do you regularly attempt to walk through walls, in the belief that, althoiugh you can see them, they are not actually real?

Ii do not require scientific proofs to know that I exist, or that my wife exists, or that my dog exists; nor do I require scientific proofs to know that something as clearly physical, self aware, and communicative as god exists.

Your belief that "'god" does not exist is reasonable but erroneous, because I have encountered the entity commonly referred to by humans as god on many occasions, and live in an ongoing relationship with it.

Of course you can chose not to accept that the entity I chose to call god, really is god. That's a fair counter, but no matter how much you deny it, or disbelieve it, the entity is real, has physical existence and interacts in a self aware conscious and determined way with me. And reading accounts throughout history, I can see its interaction with many, many other humans in the same physical, sapient and deliberate manner.

If you (any person) have not personally encountered ANYTHING, then you are accepting its existence via belief. Its easy to believe in the existence of somethings you have never encountered, but harder to believe in others.

Let us suppose I do not believe in little grey men. Now if another human actually encounters such a being, then no matter how much i believe, and how rational my belief seems to me, I am wrong and i am wrong because one physical specimen, and one physical encounter makes my disbelief null and void. It doesnt matter how strong, or how precious, my disbelief is within me, i am just wrong.

I no more believe i saw an angel or angels, than i believe i see my wife and dog.

After all, other witnesses saw them too, they interacted with reality as all real things interact with reality, and they appeared in physical form in the same contextual relationship to their environment as all physical things do. They left physical trace evidences of their existence and they fulfilled the promises they made to me .

I am neither a fool nor uneducated. Nor am I mentally ill, drunk, drugged sleepy or confused, when i encounter these things. It took me a long time to work through, in my mind, the nature and the reality of my encounters, and i used the considerable intellgence, and all the tools of a long and rigourous education at my disposal.

I am pleased to have humoured you, but again I must wonder if humour is being used to deflect a more worrying concern. Not that it is really any concern of mine, but how would your world be changed if you stopped laughing, and came to accept that i am actually describing a very real and significant interaction with a powerful alien being, which many humans call god.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Mr Walker

[+Paranoid Android]

Once there are enough pastafarians, you will also have plenty of reports of spiritual encounters with the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Which carry exactly the same weight.

What is the difference between, say, Christianity, and Pastafarianism or the belief that Elvis is alive? None, except the numbers of the gullible.

I have clearly explained the difference twice to you. I shan't explain it a third time. I have no desire to waste my time on someone that prefers using their mouth more than their ears.

~ Regards,

[+joc]

One night while playing cards with my family, I saw a reflection in a mirror of a woman approaching our front door. she passed slowly in front of our large front windows and came to the corner of the house near the door. She would have been about 2-3 metres behind me, outside the house. I was sitting with my back to her but saw her clearly and for half a minute in the mirror. I went to meet her at the door, but when i got there, there was no one there .

Our house sat on a hill side in farm land and i could see in all directions for many kilometres. No one was about.

Any way when describing the woamn and the strange incident to other people i was told by sevral that her descriptions resembled a well known ghost from a haunted house nearby.

There is a long story and many witnesses to this ghost. In brief the woman was in her forties or so. She wore a long white gown (which turned out ot be a night dress) and a white night cap which held her hair in place She had floated up to our door about a metre fromthe ground by my measurements afterwards (Unless she was 3 metres tall) The house she had haunted for over 100 years burned to the ground in the 1970s.

She stayed in our house for several years and then disappeared.

I found out from research that she had lost about 12 young children over two winters in a diptheria epidemic in the mid 1800s and had hung herself in depression while wearing her night wear. She haunted her house so badly that, for more than100 years, grown men would not go near it at night, and no one would approach it alone, even during the day.

She called out a lot. Her main words were "where are you" and "shut the door" She also cried and sobbed a lot.

I surmise she was looking for her dead children. She never worried me and i felt sorry for her. My wife heard her too but denied this for many years, because her beliefs mean she does not accept the existence of ghosts. Eventually she admitted to me that she heard the ghost, but would not tell anyone else this.

Wow! That's some fanciful story you have there...but I believe you...thanks for sharing.

Edited January 14, 2013 by joc

[+joc]

joc, on 13 January 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

You are completely glossing over all Quantum Physics, and other Sciences that deal with the subject. Black and White is not even black and white, you know?

Do tell us where quantum physics and other sciences deal with angels. I am waiting... but I am not holding my breath.

Quantum Physics, which I do not claim to have any expertise in, just rudimentary understanding, deals with particles and waves, frequencies and such. We know that the solid reality we all enjoy is not solid, nor is it even reality, because the smallest particles exist and then don't exist and then exist again. Therefore, even the reality we know and love is actually phasing in and phasing out of existence all the time. Our awareness is a very mysterious thing...is it energy...does it only exist within our brain cells? Or is it something else? We know that our brains produce Alpha Waves at very low frequencies.

All of that is to say that, One just cannot define Reality as what the five senses tell us it is. There are many dimensions of that Reality. Consider Life and Death for a moment. Life cannot exist without Death and Death cannot exist without Life...they hold each other in the balance. Without Death, there would be no life..and without life, well, of course there would be no death...

So, between the phasing in and phasing out of existence...there lies a huge potential for Angels, Demons, Ghosts, etc. This, I believe, is the dimension in which all paranormal activity occurs. An Angel may appear in front of me, just as real as you, and may say something audible that I fully understand...and then it's gone. Where did it go? And when I tell you about it you just say I am a lunatic...but inbetween the phasing in and phasing out of reality, there is a void...something must be in that void...

[Jor-el]

Quantum Physics, which I do not claim to have any expertise in, just rudimentary understanding, deals with particles and waves, frequencies and such. We know that the solid reality we all enjoy is not solid, nor is it even reality, because the smallest particles exist and then don't exist and then exist again. Therefore, even the reality we know and love is actually phasing in and phasing out of existence all the time. Our awareness is a very mysterious thing...is it energy...does it only exist within our brain cells? Or is it something else? We know that our brains produce Alpha Waves at very low frequencies.

All of that is to say that, One just cannot define Reality as what the five senses tell us it is. There are many dimensions of that Reality. Consider Life and Death for a moment. Life cannot exist without Death and Death cannot exist without Life...they hold each other in the balance. Without Death, there would be no life..and without life, well, of course there would be no death...

So, between the phasing in and phasing out of existence...there lies a huge potential for Angels, Demons, Ghosts, etc. This, I believe, is the dimension in which all paranormal activity occurs. An Angel may appear in front of me, just as real as you, and may say something audible that I fully understand...and then it's gone. Where did it go? And when I tell you about it you just say I am a lunatic...but inbetween the phasing in and phasing out of reality, there is a void...something must be in that void...

Actually it goes a bit further than that, I like one particular example to open peoples minds to the possibility that there is more to the universe than what our 5 senses can define at determine. The example is old but it leaves no room for doubt. That it is presented by a distinguished scientist that most of us know about just makes it icing on the cake...

[media=]

[/media]

No way can people fail to understand that there are things we cannot percieve and that are just as real as we are.

[scowl]

I am sorry, but seeing something generally does prove its existence, or do you regularly attempt to walk through walls, in the belief that, althoiugh you can see them, they are not actually real?

If I ever needed to prove a wall existed, that's exactly what I would. However if angels were as common as walls, we would not need to prove they exist.

[Mr Walker]

If I ever needed to prove a wall existed, that's exactly what I would. However if angels were as common as walls, we would not need to prove they exist.

Incorrect. Commonality has nothing to do with reality, only with a person's acceptance of reality. One should, logically, accept the existence of a wall, and of an angel, using the same evidences and logics. It should not matter how many walls or angels there are in existence, or whether other people have encountered them or not. For example you could try walking through an angel to test its solidity, just as you might for a wall.

You are facing the difficulty/limitations of experiential knowledge. You have encountered a wall, and thus know it is real. Until you encounter god, or an angel, personally, you will always be forced into a belief position about their existence.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Mr Walker

[Render]

Incorrect. Commonality has nothing to do with reality, only with a person's acceptance of reality. One should, logically, accept the existence of a wall, and of an angel, using the same evidences and logics. It should not matter how many walls or angels there are in existence, or whether other people have encountered them or not. For example you could try walking through an angel to test its solidity, just as you might for a wall.

You are facing the difficulty/limitations of experiential knowledge. You have encountered a wall, and thus know it is real. Until you encounter god, or an angel, personally, you will always be forced into a belief position about their existence.

Btw, in your lil angels, wall analogy .. that would mean the wall isn't really there but a mirage which only a "lucky few" can see. Thus disproving it's existence and limiting it to a state of illusion. Because not everyone sees angels , but everyone sees the real existing wall...get it? Probably not.

Anyway.. I for one certainly realise i've encountered a wall here, with you.

Science and reality just isn't your thing. You simply keep on making up these "analogies" that don't make any sense. Thinking that explains your point. It is funny though, gotta hand you that.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Render

[+joc]

Btw, in your lil angels, wall analogy .. that would mean the wall isn't really there but a mirage which only a "lucky few" can see. Thus disproving it's existence and limiting it to a state of illusion. Because not everyone sees angels , but everyone sees the real existing wall...get it? Probably not.

Anyway.. I for one certainly realise i've encountered a wall here, with you.

Science and reality just isn't your thing. You simply keep on making up these "analogies" that don't make any sense. Thinking that explains your point. It is funny though, gotta hand you that.

I would say quite the opposite..both science and reality are very much Mr. Walker's 'thing'. How can you explain the magnetic force of water? It is very real and yet, if you haven't encountered it, you most probably would think that is hogwash as well. And yet...there it is...real as can be. Have you ever encountered the magnetic force of water?

[Mr Walker]

Btw, in your lil angels, wall analogy .. that would mean the wall isn't really there but a mirage which only a "lucky few" can see. Thus disproving it's existence and limiting it to a state of illusion. Because not everyone sees angels , but everyone sees the real existing wall...get it? Probably not.

Anyway.. I for one certainly realise i've encountered a wall here, with you.

Science and reality just isn't your thing. You simply keep on making up these "analogies" that don't make any sense. Thinking that explains your point. It is funny though, gotta hand you that.

You think it is I which doesnt get the analogy or reality? LOL.

You miss the point entirely. The wall is there. You cant walk through it. The angel is there. You can't walk through it.

I tis clear that you are assuming/inferring that angels are insubstantial/immaterial or exist only within a perosns consciousness,The point i am making is that angels are as solid, and as physica,l as a wall, or you or I.

And i know as much science as any layman is likely to which, is quite enough for my purposes. I have an excellent reading ability intelligence and comprehension skills as well as a very comprehensive vocab i can read any piece of medicla and scienific literature and generally understnadi t and how it fits into a wider schem of things Anything i dont know and need to know, I can research. Given that i can read and comprehend a page of text as fast as I can turn the page, it doesnt take me long to learn new things.

I am sorry you dont comprehend my analogies, but i suspect you aren't really trying to because you dont want to, or else your mind is so set in its ways it cant think in a differnt way, or style/form. Ps not everyone sees walls. Blind people can't see them And any non blind person will see an angel if/when it appears in their vicinity, otherwise it is an hallucination. But angels do not always fully manifest. Sometimes they come as light, sometimes as a voice, sometimes as an invisible force which pushes a person in the chest or throws them out of the road of a car train bus etc. These are harder for witnesses to detect but the contextual evidences of their presence remain as physical evidence of their existence. For example a bruise on your chest where the invisible angel pushed you backwards, or a piece of knowledge that the angel has imparted which can be independently verified. Or, as in the case of a friend of mine, the complete disappeareance within a day or so, of an advanced and terminal cancer, after an angel appeared and told him it had removed the cancer and he would live for decades more.

The bloke didnt believe the angel because he was an atheist so he went to his specialist. All x rays etc confirmed that a large malignant cancer had totally disappeared, since the last tests.

The doctor asked him if anything unusual had happened to him. He described what had happened and the doctor responded, "I thought it might have been something like that."

The doctor had encountered a number of similar cases. Science puts this down to spontaneous remission, because it cant see any other explanation, although this case was rather spectacular, but this specialist had encountered similar stories about angelic encounters, and witnessed similar if less spectacular recoveries, and had an open mind. Over twenty years later, my friend is still alive and well and has never had another cancer.

[Amalthe]

Maybe you should rephrase question:

What if tall radiant being towering shiny metallic purple armor appears in front of you and tells you that you need to immediately abanon your home and family (for whatever reason) and go to 50 miles/km distant place to do something specific?

Would you, faced with undeniable visual proof, obey the being or would you question assignment he gave to you, or maybe question your own senses?

[Jor-el]

Maybe you should rephrase question:

What if tall radiant being towering shiny metallic purple armor appears in front of you and tells you that you need to immediately abanon your home and family (for whatever reason) and go to 50 miles/km distant place to do something specific?

Would you, faced with undeniable visual proof, obey the being or would you question assignment he gave to you, or maybe question your own senses?

question, definitely!

Just because I and others accept and believe in the existence of angels, does not mean that we automatically accept anything they have to say... that could get you into big trouble listening to just any angel out there. They are not all on humanities side.

[scowl]

You are facing the difficulty/limitations of experiential knowledge. You have encountered a wall, and thus know it is real. Until you encounter god, or an angel, personally, you will always be forced into a belief position about their existence.

Why are you assuming I've never encountered an angel? I've seen one exactly as described in the Bible.

[Beckys_Mom]

Why are you assuming I've never encountered an angel? I've seen one exactly as described in the Bible.

Because only Mr Walker sees angels lol

[Mr Walker]

Maybe you should rephrase question:

What if tall radiant being towering shiny metallic purple armor appears in front of you and tells you that you need to immediately abanon your home and family (for whatever reason) and go to 50 miles/km distant place to do something specific?

Would you, faced with undeniable visual proof, obey the being or would you question assignment he gave to you, or maybe question your own senses?

I would save, exit the game, and think seriously about my strategy.

In real life if the visual proof was undeniable it would depend on a, my other commitments at the time b, what precisely it asked me to do and c, what rationale/reason it gave.

Supposing the reason and the action was interesting, positive and challenging, I would probably do it just for the fun experience of it Eg save a damsel in distress, get an early bargain in the new years sale, find a lost treasure etc.

I actually did this sort of thing for about 10 years, sans the metallic figure. It was called geocaching

[Mr Walker]

Why are you assuming I've never encountered an angel? I've seen one exactly as described in the Bible.

Then, given your other comments, this angel failed to convince you of its independent physical existence and solidity and was unable to exert a measurable influence on the rest of your reality.

I've never had an hallucination outside of medically induced ones, but I wouldnt be convinced by something that existed only in my mind, either.

If you had encountered a real physical angel, then you would know they are real and physical. That is only logical. If you encountered a "non physical" angel which has no independent verification or contextual evidences for its reality, then what you make of it, or believe about it, is up to you.

If you encountered a real physical angel and still chose not to believe in its existence, then that is the equivalent of trying to walk through a wall because, although you can see it, you dont believe in it.

If you thought the entity was real but dont like calling it an angel, that is fine. Angel is just a name we attach to a certain form of entity.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Mr Walker

[White Unicorn]

Why are you assuming I've never encountered an angel? I've seen one exactly as described in the Bible.

You were disillusioned seeker who said on another thread that you never experienced anything that couldn't be explained away as hoaxes of some sort or another but hoped to experience something some day. Bible describes different kinds of messengers what type did you experience?

[Render]

You think it is I which doesnt get the analogy or reality? LOL.

You miss the point entirely. The wall is there. You cant walk through it. The angel is there. You can't walk through it.

I am sorry you dont comprehend my analogies, but i suspect you aren't really trying to because you dont want to, or else your mind is so set in its ways it cant think in a differnt way, or style/form. Ps not everyone sees walls. Blind people can't see them And any non blind person will see an angel if/when it appears in their vicinity, otherwise it is an hallucination. But angels do not always fully manifest. Sometimes they come as light, sometimes as a voice, sometimes as an invisible force which pushes a person in the chest or throws them out of the road of a car train bus etc.

It's very funny how you again think you are actually proving a point.

The blind don't see the wall, but the wall is still there. It doesn't disappear and re-appear for only a couple of ppl.

Angels aren't there , only if you have hallucinations. If you still don't understand how a wall and a angel have nothing in common there is no need to actually discuss anything with you.