Yahweh / El - God of The Bible is Satan

[XenoFish]

On 8/14/2021 at 3:24 PM, larryp said:

Hey pal, have you ever heard of "free will," or are you just a marionette? It looks like someone needs to Free Willy.  

What the hell are you on about? Do you seriously think that you're not a mind slave to your ideology? Because you are. 

[XenoFish]

5 hours ago, larryp said:

Smoke and mirrors !!

Translation: Lalalala I can't hear you.

[+Liquid Gardens]

On 8/13/2021 at 2:34 AM, larryp said:

I'll give you a concise answer.

I'm not sure I'd really call it an 'answer', it's more of a 'response', you didn't explain why god 'had to' respond to Satan's accusation.

On 8/13/2021 at 2:34 AM, larryp said:

The issue started in the Garden of Eden. Remember when YHWH told the couple, ". . . you might eat from every tree of the garden, except for one, and on the day you eat from it, you will die." Then, Satan came along and called YHWH a lair; he said, "You will not die." 

And just as the serpent promised they didn't die, did they?  The serpent was right about this.  Yea, I know, it was a 'spiritual death' and he really meant the loss of their immortality, excuse, etcetera; we're still stuck with the fact that people who actually die don't go on to later have fratricidally-inclined children for instance.

On 8/13/2021 at 2:34 AM, larryp said:

So, you see, in this instance, Satan challenged YHWH, as he did with Job. Thus, the challenges have to do with YHWH's right to make decisions in mankind's affairs and rule. 

Actually there seems to be some interesting, to me, debate about whether this was actually Satan or just a serpent, or at least it's a deeper question.  My understanding is that at the time these stories were composed the devil had not been invented yet, so at least to the writers/storytellers of the time I believe it was a serpent.

The thing about 'rights' is that no one is required to exercise them, that's part of what makes them rights.  The God of the Bible to me makes it clear that he thinks he has the 'right' to do anything, matter of fact it's kinda built right into the end of this story when Job essentially asks God why he was afflicted and defended his innocence and righteousness, and in response God essentially just gives the intellectual equivalent of flexing his bicep and avoids the question with his 'have you the arm of god' stuff.  Noting that he as 'the right' to do something, even if it's anything and everything, doesn't explain why he 'had to'.

As an aside what I think is cool about Job is how it depicts Satan.  In the very first chapter I think Satan just kinda saunters into a meeting with God and the angels and freely and non-deferentially challenges God, with actually a pretty good point.  Job may have passed the test, but I don't think there is any disputing that there are people whose devotion to God is dependent upon how blessed they are 'materialistically' for lack of a better word, and who would have renounced god if those blessings were taken away like was done to Job.  He lost, but Satan still made a solid bet.  But Satan is much more the 'Adversary' here, he's much more like an opposing lawyer, damned () good one actually, than he is the evil tempting ruler of hell preoccupied with collecting souls. 

 

[jmccr8]

16 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

The thing about 'rights' is that no one is required to exercise them, that's part of what makes them rights.

Hi Liquid

As a member of a country I do not have the same rights I have privileges I am not entitled to because of social barriers. How is that different than the god construct, if you sell these many cookies you go to Disney Land

[Will Due]

58 minutes ago, closed for business said:

if you sell these many cookies you go to Disney Land

 

Can't wait to meet you there. 

 

 

[jmccr8]

7 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Can't wait to meet you there. 

 

 

Hi Will

At this stage in life unless there is an X rated Disney land on the books I likely won't see you there but will send a post card if I find it.,

[Guyver]

The first time I heard the argument we are speaking of I considered it almost blasphemous.  But that was the result of my conditioning.  Now that I have abandoned all beliefs and reflected….it’s easy to see that there is cause to think of such of a thing.  It’s hard to believe that the Maker of all Universes would require the sacrifice of a goat.  But, some beloved person I know said her beliefs help her become a better person.  So, I understand and respect that. It doesn’t help me because I don’t believe in that God, so it’s a difficult place to be.  I think God is greater than requiring blood sacrifice, he already has all our blood.  We’re all going to die and spill our blood.  How much more blood sacrifice than that would a blood god need?

[eight bits]

6 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Actually there seems to be some interesting, to me, debate about whether this was actually Satan or just a serpent, or at least it's a deeper question.  My understanding is that at the time these stories were composed the devil had not been invented yet, so at least to the writers/storytellers of the time I believe it was a serpent.

Yes. Here's a nice summary of the situation, from the Biblical perspective:

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-interpretation/how-the-serpent-became-satan/

 

[+Liquid Gardens]

2 hours ago, eight bits said:

Yes. Here's a nice summary of the situation, from the Biblical perspective:

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-interpretation/how-the-serpent-became-satan/

 

Ha, thanks!  That's actually the same link where I got my info, including cribbing 'devil hadn't been invented yet' from it.  

[jmccr8]

[Will Due]

 

"Jewish tradition became crystallized about Moses, and because he endeavored to trace the lineage of Abraham back to Adam, the Jews assumed that Adam was the first of all mankind. Yahweh was the creator, and since Adam was supposed to be the first man, he must have made the world just prior to making Adam. And then the tradition of Adam’s six days got woven into the story, with the result that almost a thousand years after Moses’ sojourn on earth the tradition of creation in six days was written out and subsequently credited to him.

Spoiler

The Old Testament account of creation dates from long after the time of Moses; he never taught the Hebrews such a distorted story. But he did present a simple and condensed narrative of creation to the Israelites, hoping thereby to augment his appeal to worship the Creator, the Universal Father, whom he called the Lord God of Israel.

74:8.8

In his early teachings, Moses very wisely did not attempt to go back of Adam’s time, and since Moses was the supreme teacher of the Hebrews, the stories of Adam became intimately associated with those of creation. That the earlier traditions recognized pre-Adamic civilization is clearly shown by the fact that later editors, intending to eradicate all reference to human affairs before Adam’s time, neglected to remove the telltale reference to Cain’s emigration to the “land of Nod,” where he took himself a wife.

74:8.9

The Hebrews had no written language in general usage for a long time after they reached Palestine. They learned the use of an alphabet from the neighboring Philistines, who were political refugees from the higher civilization of Crete. The Hebrews did little writing until about 900 B.C., and having no written language until such a late date, they had several different stories of creation in circulation, but after the Babylonian captivity they inclined more toward accepting a modified Mesopotamian version.

74:8.10

When the Jewish priests returned to Jerusalem, they had already completed the writing of their narrative of the beginning of things. Soon they made claims that this recital was a recently discovered story of creation written by Moses. But the contemporary Hebrews of around 500 B.C. did not consider these writings to be divine revelations; they looked upon them much as later peoples regard mythological narratives.

74:8.12

This spurious document, reputed to be the teachings of Moses, was brought to the attention of Ptolemy, the Greek king of Egypt, who had it translated into Greek by a commission of seventy scholars for his new library at Alexandria. And so this account found its place among those writings which subsequently became a part of the later collections of the “sacred scriptures” of the Hebrew and Christian religions. And through identification with these theological systems, such concepts for a long time profoundly influenced the philosophy of many Occidental peoples.

74:8.13

The Christian teachers perpetuated the belief in the fiat creation of the human race, and all this led directly to the formation of the hypothesis of a onetime golden age of utopian bliss and the theory of the fall of man or superman which accounted for the nonutopian condition of society. These outlooks on life and man’s place in the universe were at best discouraging since they were predicated upon a belief in retrogression rather than progression, as well as implying a vengeful Deity, who had vented wrath upon the human race in retribution for the errors of certain onetime planetary administrators.

74:8.14

The “golden age” is a myth, but Eden was a fact, and the Garden civilization was actually overthrown. Adam and Eve carried on in the Garden for one hundred and seventeen years when, through the impatience of Eve and the errors of judgment of Adam, they presumed to turn aside from the ordained way, speedily bringing disaster upon themselves and ruinous retardation upon the developmental progression of all the world.

 

The Legend of Creation

 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Will Due

[jmccr8]

17 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

"Jewish tradition became crystallized about Moses, and because he endeavored to trace the lineage of Abraham back to Adam, the Jews assumed that Adam was the first of all mankind. Yahweh was the creator, and since Adam was supposed to be the first man, he must have made the world just prior to making Adam. And then the tradition of Adam’s six days got woven into the story, with the result that almost a thousand years after Moses’ sojourn on earth the tradition of creation in six days was written out and subsequently credited to him.

  Reveal hidden contents

The Old Testament account of creation dates from long after the time of Moses; he never taught the Hebrews such a distorted story. But he did present a simple and condensed narrative of creation to the Israelites, hoping thereby to augment his appeal to worship the Creator, the Universal Father, whom he called the Lord God of Israel.

74:8.8

In his early teachings, Moses very wisely did not attempt to go back of Adam’s time, and since Moses was the supreme teacher of the Hebrews, the stories of Adam became intimately associated with those of creation. That the earlier traditions recognized pre-Adamic civilization is clearly shown by the fact that later editors, intending to eradicate all reference to human affairs before Adam’s time, neglected to remove the telltale reference to Cain’s emigration to the “land of Nod,” where he took himself a wife.

74:8.9

The Hebrews had no written language in general usage for a long time after they reached Palestine. They learned the use of an alphabet from the neighboring Philistines, who were political refugees from the higher civilization of Crete. The Hebrews did little writing until about 900 B.C., and having no written language until such a late date, they had several different stories of creation in circulation, but after the Babylonian captivity they inclined more toward accepting a modified Mesopotamian version.

74:8.10

When the Jewish priests returned to Jerusalem, they had already completed the writing of their narrative of the beginning of things. Soon they made claims that this recital was a recently discovered story of creation written by Moses. But the contemporary Hebrews of around 500 B.C. did not consider these writings to be divine revelations; they looked upon them much as later peoples regard mythological narratives.

74:8.12

This spurious document, reputed to be the teachings of Moses, was brought to the attention of Ptolemy, the Greek king of Egypt, who had it translated into Greek by a commission of seventy scholars for his new library at Alexandria. And so this account found its place among those writings which subsequently became a part of the later collections of the “sacred scriptures” of the Hebrew and Christian religions. And through identification with these theological systems, such concepts for a long time profoundly influenced the philosophy of many Occidental peoples.

74:8.13

The Christian teachers perpetuated the belief in the fiat creation of the human race, and all this led directly to the formation of the hypothesis of a onetime golden age of utopian bliss and the theory of the fall of man or superman which accounted for the nonutopian condition of society. These outlooks on life and man’s place in the universe were at best discouraging since they were predicated upon a belief in retrogression rather than progression, as well as implying a vengeful Deity, who had vented wrath upon the human race in retribution for the errors of certain onetime planetary administrators.

74:8.14

The “golden age” is a myth, but Eden was a fact, and the Garden civilization was actually overthrown. Adam and Eve carried on in the Garden for one hundred and seventeen years when, through the impatience of Eve and the errors of judgment of Adam, they presumed to turn aside from the ordained way, speedily bringing disaster upon themselves and ruinous retardation upon the developmental progression of all the world.

 

The Legend of Creation

 

 

Hi Will 

Just for clarification this happened on just our world or all of the over three hundred worlds that the UB claims that there has been a Jesus, Mary, Joseph(my Italian neighbor excluded) involved in the litany?

[Will Due]

3 minutes ago, closed for business said:

Hi Will 

Just for clarification this happened on just our world or all of the over three hundred worlds that the UB claims that there has been a Jesus, Mary, Joseph(my Italian neighbor excluded) involved in the litany?

 

Read it and you'll find out LOL. 

 

 

[jmccr8]

1 minute ago, Will Due said:

 

Read it and you'll find out LOL. 

 

 

Hi Will

I did and it would seem that were are the planet in question in so far as free will goes because for some reason we exercised it and were exiled. Nice story and we could likely get a couple seasons out of it depending how much space ships and laser blasters we are allowed to use in the telling of the story. Would just like to point out that for some reason in present scifi we are still using lead poisoning instead of burning a hole through someone what do you make of that revelation in fiction?

[Will Due]

6 minutes ago, closed for business said:

Would just like to point out that for some reason in present scifi we are still using lead poisoning instead of burning a hole through someone what do you make of that revelation in fiction?

 

Will this do?

 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Will Due

[jmccr8]

1 minute ago, Will Due said:

 

Will this do?

 

 

Hi Will

Not sure which one is Jesus?

[Will Due]

6 minutes ago, closed for business said:

Hi Will

Not sure which one is Jesus?

 

Don't be silly. Jesus wasn't Irish. 

 

 

[jmccr8]

1 minute ago, Will Due said:

 

Don't be silly. Jesus wasn't Irish. 

 

 

Hi Will neither did the squid or the face it was hugging, I would know that is my ancestry and mine has it's share of ruthlessness maybe as much as some gods

[Will Due]

12 minutes ago, closed for business said:

Hi Will neither did the squid or the face it was hugging, I would know that is my ancestry and mine has it's share of ruthlessness maybe as much as some gods

 

Once again LOL you've reminded me of something I read somewhere. 

 

"Tell my children that I am not only tender of their feelings and patient with their frailties, but that I am also ruthless with sin and intolerant of iniquity. I am indeed meek and humble in the presence of my Father, but I am equally and relentlessly inexorable where there is deliberate evil-doing and sinful rebellion against the will of my Father in heaven.

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Will Due

[jmccr8]

6 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Once again LOL you've reminded me of something I read somewhere. 

 

"Tell my children that I am not only tender of their feelings and patient with their frailties, but that I am also ruthless with sin and intolerant of iniquity. I am indeed meek and humble in the presence of my Father, but I am equally and relentlessly inexorable where there is deliberate evil-doing and sinful rebellion against the will of my Father in heaven.

 

 

 

[Will Due]

3 minutes ago, closed for business said:

 

 

[larryp]

18 hours ago, XenoFish said:

What the hell are you on about? Do you seriously think that you're not a mind slave to your ideology? Because you are. 

YHWH

I'm a mind slave to the sciences, the Bible, geology, archeology, history, and historians, all of which authenticate what I know to be true. You can't beat that, pal.

What are you a mind slave to, XenoFish?

Edited August 16, 2021 by larryp
the details!

[XenoFish]

1 hour ago, larryp said:

YHWH

I'm a mind slave to the sciences, the Bible, geology, archeology, history, and historians, all of which authenticate what I know to be true. You can't beat that, pal.

 

More like you conform science to fit your beliefs. Then push those same beliefs as facts. Sorry but your imaginary god has no power here or anywhere for that matter.

Quote

What are you a mind slave to, XenoFish?

Taco's. I like taco's. Can't resist them all that much. 

[larryp]

On 8/16/2021 at 6:15 AM, Will Due said:

 

  Hide contents

The Hebrews had no written language in general usage for a long time . . ." The Hebrews did little writing until about 900 B.C., and having no written language until such a late date, they had several different stories of creation in circulation, but after the Babylonian captivity they inclined more toward accepting a modified Mesopotamian version.

 

Hey Will, the only person telling a story is you.  

This is what the Kings of Israel had to do by law in (1040 BCE) 

When he takes his seat on the throne of his kingdom, he must write for himself in a book a copy of this Law, taken from the one kept by the Levitical priests. Deuteronomy 17:18  Furthermore, all Scripture is inspired by YHWH.  2 Timothy 3:16-17

So, you see Will; you're confused. But, if you step back from the "Babylonish" tradition you're in, you can see straight.

Edited August 17, 2021 by larryp
the details!!

[jmccr8]

On 8/16/2021 at 1:46 PM, larryp said:

I'm a mind slave to the sciences,

smoke and mirrors