Gunman dies after public stop Plymouth

[Wyrdlight]

Aye, that's a bit silly isn't it? This country has no self-defence laws at all. Literally, if someone is attacking you, you are not allowed to defend yourself with, say, a punch. Even if the guy has a knife. And by our laws, even a push on someone can see you charged with assault.

Madness.

Im sorry but thats nonsense. There is ample provision under British law for self defence, even pre-emptive strikes are permissable.

[freetoroam]

Indeed you would be, your dog, your responsibility It would be no different if you owned a vicious dog and he got out of the house by accident.. He bites a child, you face the music...... It's the same with children .. If my young daughter went out and caused trouble at a neighbors home ( which alone would make me hit the roof ) ..and she is caught.. Police take her to my house and tell me what has happened.. I am fully responsible for her, it will be me that has to deal with it, and pay for any damages caused...It's a given

To a certain extent......if the dog is at home alone and he is a guard dog and there ARE warning signs, then the owner is not responsible if an intruder broke in, OR anyone entered without taking notice of the signs and the dog attacks them.

Obviously if the dog gets loose and attacks someone outside its guarding and signed zone, then the owner is responsible.

I think this is what you are saying, just checking?

[freetoroam]

Im sorry but thats nonsense. There is ample provision under British law for self defence, even pre-emptive strikes are permissable.

yes, there are, but what we have seen over the years is the rise of the human rights brigade, the race card and the woe onto me`ers getting their way because of judges or juries too afraid to stand up and properly stand up for the victim.

Too many people and our government our one prime example, are scared of being called racist in cases where the criminal is not English, because the human right brigade lawyers have threatened people with these stupid race cards.

NOT ONLY the race card, but we have have too many people out there trying to "help" the criminals by coming out with the "poverty" excuse and for some extremely strange reason, the judges has been falling for it!

[TSS]

To a certain extent......if the dog is at home alone and he is a guard dog and there ARE warning signs, then the owner is not responsible if an intruder broke in, OR anyone entered without taking notice of the signs and the dog attacks them.

Obviously if the dog gets loose and attacks someone outside its guarding and signed zone, then the owner is responsible.

I think this is what you are saying, just checking?

i've had conflicting advice on the issue of signs, from policeman no less...one said if you put a 'beware' sign up you are admitting you have a dangerous dog you can't control, and a court will likely prosecute, another said that without a sign you are not forewarning anyone so likely for prosecution :-/ This was a few years ago though, so not sure if the sign issue has been sorted since then!

[TSS]

Just to add - Just read that Guard Dog signs don't always work either, since apparently a guard dog requires a handler by law, and if there isn't one it needs to be securely restrained.

[+OverSword]

Hmmmm......criminal with gun, law abiding citizens without....Anyone see anything wrong with this picture? If this had been a one on one situation the guy with the gun would win.

[freetoroam]

i've had conflicting advice on the issue of signs, from policeman no less...one said if you put a 'beware' sign up you are admitting you have a dangerous dog you can't control, and a court will likely prosecute, another said that without a sign you are not forewarning anyone so likely for prosecution :-/ This was a few years ago though, so not sure if the sign issue has been sorted since then!

I was told that I had to have a sign up or could be up for prosecution. It would be surprising if you could be prosecuted for having a sign up because they are easy to buy and no one asks any questions.

I can not see how a beware sign is admitting to the dog being dangerous, it just means there is a dog on the premisses, there are many people who are frightened of dogs, no matter what breed. Also I understand a lot of muslims do not like dogs, that came from a muslim. So if the postman or gas man were muslim, they would be warned in advance....not to come near my house.

[freetoroam]

Just to add - Just read that Guard Dog signs don't always work either, since apparently a guard dog requires a handler by law, and if there isn't one it needs to be securely restrained.

And I should hope so too, but I have seen many a teenager with Staffs who were most certainly not "handlers". Thankfully, changes have been made to this in many areas.

[freetoroam]

Hmmmm......criminal with gun, law abiding citizens without....Anyone see anything wrong with this picture? If this had been a one on one situation the guy with the gun would win.

Unless the gun is a fake.......but its best not to take any chances though and if given the chance, do exactly what these people did and take him down.

[TSS]

I was told that I had to have a sign up or could be up for prosecution. It would be surprising if you could be prosecuted for having a sign up because they are easy to buy and no one asks any questions.

I can not see how a beware sign is admitting to the dog being dangerous, it just means there is a dog on the premisses, there are many people who are frightened of dogs, no matter what breed. Also I understand a lot of muslims do not like dogs, that came from a muslim. So if the postman or gas man were muslim, they would be warned in advance....not to come near my house.

Yep, what he said baffled me too...I did wonder after if he just didn't know the answer to my question, so advised me against both options to cover himself lol...but I have heard ohers say the same too...seems one of those areas they could do with clarifying.

[Beckys_Mom]

i've had conflicting advice on the issue of signs, from policeman no less...one said if you put a 'beware' sign up you are admitting you have a dangerous dog you can't control, and a court will likely prosecute, another said that without a sign you are not forewarning anyone so likely for prosecution :-/ This was a few years ago though, so not sure if the sign issue has been sorted since then!

You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't !!

Obviously if the dog gets loose and attacks someone outside its guarding and signed zone, then the owner is responsible.

I think this is what you are saying, just checking?

Yes

[freetoroam]

Yep, what he said baffled me too...I did wonder after if he just didn't know the answer to my question, so advised me against both options to cover himself lol...but I have heard ohers say the same too...seems one of those areas they could do with clarifying.

I think it may depend on where you live too, eg: it is unlikely you would need to warn the public about your dog because they may be scared or muslim in rural areas, but you would need to warn them because the dog WILL attack if you trespass.

A farmer is allowed to shoot your dog if you let it wander near his sheep, but in the inner cities a person can not shoot your dog if its wanders near your gate or child, so basically dog ownership works differently and for different reasons.....so I think the police will say different things according to the rules in what ever area they are patrolling.

Edited February 1, 2013 by freetoroam

[Michelle]

i've had conflicting advice on the issue of signs, from policeman no less...one said if you put a 'beware' sign up you are admitting you have a dangerous dog you can't control, and a court will likely prosecute, another said that without a sign you are not forewarning anyone so likely for prosecution :-/ This was a few years ago though, so not sure if the sign issue has been sorted since then!

This website may be of some help to you...

http://archive.defra...erous/index.htm

I didn't see anything about beware of dog signs but I didn't look through it very thoroughly

Edited February 1, 2013 by Michelle

[freetoroam]

This website may be of some help to you...

http://archive.defra...erous/index.htm

This is great, will pass it onto our police officers.

[TSS]

This website may be of some help to you...

http://archive.defra...erous/index.htm

Cheers. Had a quick glance, but it only mentions that a guard dog needs a sign (and a handler)....will have to have a look more carefully later when I have more time

[Beckys_Mom]

Cheers. Had a quick glance, but it only mentions that a guard dog needs a sign (and a handler)....will have to have a look more carefully later when I have more time

What kind of dog do you own ?

[Ealdwita]

I'm pretty sure that you read ealdwita wrong.

I read it as if he was making the statement that citizens aren't protected if they stop a crime, not that he supports criminals...

Thanks for that Timonthy. I've only just noticed your post. Quite honestly if it were up to me, we'd all be wearing swords, and if a criminal was caught as in the OP, then we should be permitted to summarily relieve him of at least one of his ears!

I happen to be the Vice-chairman of the pub's 'Hang 'em & Flog 'em Committee BTW!

[TSS]

What kind of dog do you own ?

Oh it's not relevant to me now, was just curious...the dog I own now runs from cats lol...scared of it's own shadow, it's a cross between a king charles spaniel and a labrador (one strange union that was lol)

[Yamato]

Just to add - Just read that Guard Dog signs don't always work either, since apparently a guard dog requires a handler by law, and if there isn't one it needs to be securely restrained.

A house isn't securely restrained? You have to put it in a cage inside your house or something?

[Yamato]

It has been answered how it's possible, since it has been explained to you that the law over regarding the ownership of pets is mainly centered around common sense. What you fail to realise is that it is only determined that is a burglar after the event (under your scenario). The reason people are expected to take responsibility for their dogs actions is because of those examples where it turns out to not be a burglar. Example - I always leave my porch door unlocked, it's because I get lots of mail etc, so the postman knows to just leave it there, occasionally I have forgotten to lock the inner door when going out, my previous dog could open that door, so the postman could have opened that door and got attacked by my dog, police arrive, man laying there with his throat ripped out, no witnesses (as per your example)...I am still responsible for what my dog did.

The reason the law in wales is being amended, is because the current dangerous dogs act does not cover land, so again, anyone visiting who is attacked is not covered under the dangerous dogs act, by default, it would mean anyone breaking and entering is covered, as the distinction isn't always made until after the event...i'm sure if there are a flood of compensation claims from burglars (which I doubt) then it will be revised again to exclude breaking and entering. As the laws are merely at the proposed stage, there is plenty of time to debate and amend.

No it hasn't been. If you think you can explain how it's possible then you can present a hypothetical explanation for my hypothetical scenario. And other than just more "trust me, the guidelines are wise and take all evidence into account" you haven't explained anything. There's plenty of time to debate, and now's a great time to do it. Not serve to discourage debate as if everything's just jolly-good okay. I would have hoped that Britain of all places would have castle laws defending private property from intruders. And it sounds like from what you're saying now, that isn't the case. And you need to confine your powerful animal into a sub-compartment of your house when you're away so you avoid prosecution for what your animal does when you are away. So it's just as I feared it was, a deranged denial of the protection of private property. The UK can do a lot better than that. These kinds of laws encourage criminals to commit property crimes.

Maybe you're not ready for a poster on this board to criticize your country's laws but sometimes that's going to happen here sir, and you should have some tolerance for it when it does.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/7922755/England-has-worse-crime-rate-than-the-US-says-Civitas-study.html

[Yamato]

From my American perspective of defending civil liberties, this anti-dog attitude in UK law is borderline Monty Python:

*doorbell rings*

Yamato: *answers the door*

Yamato: Oh thank goodness it's you! The police!

UK Policeman: Well of course it's the police! You called us didn't you?

Yamato: Yes I did. Can you help me? I've been the victim of a crime.

UK Policeman: I'm to understand there's been a burglary here

Yamato: Yes there has. There's a dead burglar in my living room. He met my dog, Rottie.

UK Policeman: Good heavens why didn't you say so?

Yamato: I did...when I called. I didn't tell you, because you didn't answer. They dispatched you right?

UK Policeman: Well I'm here aren't I?

Yamato: Well yeah...but...

UK Policeman: Nevermind that! Are you going to let me in or not?

Yamato: Do I have a choice?

UK Policeman: No, you don't actually, now out of my way!

*shoves Yamato aside and barges in*

UK Policeman: What did you say your name was again?

Yamato: I didn't tell you my name.

UK Policeman: Well why not?

Yamato: Because you didn't ask.

UK Policeman: Well I'm asking you now, what is it?

Yamato: Yamato...but you see it's...

UK Policeman: Yamato? Isn't that a Jap name?

Yamato: Well maybe 60 years ago you could call it that, yeah...

UK Policeman: You don't look Japanese...what are you doing in the UK?

Yamato: I find myself asking that very question right now, believe me. Actually it's just a username.

UK Policeman: You's a what?

Yamato: Nevermind.

UK Policeman: So where is the burglar?

Yamato: *points*

UK Policeman: Oh dear! Bloody hell! Was this the only one?

Yamato: No, there were others. I saw them running when I came down the stairs with my English Mastiff.

UK Policeman: Well did they get a good look at you?

Yamato: Excuse me?

UK Policeman: Or did you get a good look at them?

Yamato: No. They were running and had their backs turned to me.

UK Policeman: What else can you tell me?

Yamato: They were dressed in dark clothes and running very fast. I think the torn artery on their friend here gave them second thoughts about stealing my grandmother's china.

UK Policeman: China, I thought you said Japanese?

Yamato: No.

UK Policeman: Where did you say you were again when this happened?

Yamato: Upstairs.

UK Policeman: And what were you doing upstairs might I ask?

Yamato: I was in the bathroom and had my headphones on.

UK Policeman: And how am I supposed to know you were upstairs?

Yamato: Well you could ask my dog I suppose, but she doesn't speak English.

UK Policeman: Wasn't your dog English?

Yamato: The one upstairs is, I suppose, yes. But he was upstairs with me then too, so he didn't see anything.

UK Policeman: And the one downstairs?

Yamato: German.

UK Policeman: Typical German too. Bloody hell, this is gruesome!

Yamato: Oh yeah, that's my girl. Isn't that right, Rottie! Ooooooh you're such a good girl!

*Yamato scratches Rottie's red chin*

UK Policeman: And what were you doing in the bathroom upstairs?

Yamato: I was on the toilet.

UK Policeman: And what, may I ask, were you doing on the toilet?

Yamato: Are you serious?

UK Policeman: I'm a UK police officer, of course I'm serious! Everything we do is strictly by the book and the book is strictly by everything we do!

Yamato: I was taking a dump.

UK Policeman: A dump? You were dropping a Washburn?

Yamato: I was freeing the brown hostages.

UK Policeman: You were launching torpedoes?

Yamato: I was carpet bombing Afghanistan.

UK Policeman: You were taking a Nixon?

Yamato: I was backing the big brown motorhome out of the garage.

UK Policeman: And then what happened?

Yamato: I wiped.

UK Policeman: You mean to say you were freshening up?

Yamato: I was finishing up some paper work.

UK Policeman: You were going to see a man about a dog?

Yamato: Yes I suppose that's exactly right. I came downstairs and Rottie was enjoying her 3rd meal of the day. Isn't that right my precious little monster?

UK Policeman: Just look at that blood splatter! It nearly reaches the ceiling!

Yamato: Yeah, good girl Rottie!!!

UK Policeman: I'm sorry I cannot believe your alibi that you were upstairs!

Yamato: Uhh why not?

UK Policeman: These wounds are too severe. I'm going to have to call a forensics team to examine this immediately.

Yamato: Yeah but what does that have anything to do with...

UK Policeman: Silence! You are nearly crossing over the line with your childish questions!

Yamato: I still don't understand why the blood has anything to do with where I was when this happened, I think that...

UK Policeman: You must understand something... I am a police officer. Of the law. You are a Japanese immigrant with a Chinese grandmother, an English dog that can't collaborate your story, and a German.

Yamato: Rottie.

UK Policeman: Yes and what kind of dog is that?

Yamato: It's a Rottweiler. They're famous for their jaw strength actually.

UK Policeman: I'm sorry Yamato, but due to your irrelevancy and trollish behavior, and especially due to the extent of these injuries, I'm going to have to take you in until the laboratory has confirmed your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Yamato: Uhhhh WTF

UK Policeman: Our moderator has it on good authority that this is a reasonable approach. We don't just consider what you happen to say after we question you, we look at all the evidence! Did you know that your fingerprints were all over this leash?

Yamato: Yes I'm sure they are, it's my leash.

UK Policeman: And this light switch. You turned the light on and you didn't try to stop this butchery?

Yamato: Well no, I'm sure my fingerprints were already on that too, you see I live here, and...

UK Policeman: No more questions for now! You're coming with me until we run a sweep of the area to make sure nobody else walking the streets in dark clothing saw what you were doing while this monster of yours did its number on this lifeless man. Look at that dead man your dog killed...I can barely stand to look at him! But before we go, I'm going to have to get a look at your papers?

Yamato: I already flushed them, sorry.

UK Policeman: Yes I see now, you are quite guilty. Quite guilty indeed young man! It's a good thing that Sky Scanner took over our department. Our prosecution of dog owners has skyrocketed since he started posting our guidelines.

[acidhead]

lol... classic man

[spud the mackem]

English/Welsh laws are different from Scottish laws,and so is the sentencing,if you restrain a robber you have to be very carefull or he becomes the Victim,and you are in deep poo.The precedence being,a few years ago a burglar was caught by a Farmer, the Farmer shot and killed him and ended up in jail for Manslaughter, and it took quite a lot of appeals to get the Farmer released, and I believe he later died from the stress and trauma of his jail experience.There are a lot of cases where the Judges rule a case which becomes quite rediculous in public opinion,like the Asylum Seeker who drove a car,without a licence/insurance,hit and killed a small girl and was put in jail for 6 weeks,and banned from driving for 2 years and was not deported because he claimed he would be killed if he returned to his land.Thats British Justice.Nowadays our Laws are controlled by Europe,thats why they are so screwed up.

[TSS]

No it hasn't been. If you think you can explain how it's possible then you can present a hypothetical explanation for my hypothetical scenario. And other than just more "trust me, the guidelines are wise and take all evidence into account" you haven't explained anything. There's plenty of time to debate, and now's a great time to do it. Not serve to discourage debate as if everything's just jolly-good okay. I would have hoped that Britain of all places would have castle laws defending private property from intruders. And it sounds like from what you're saying now, that isn't the case. And you need to confine your powerful animal into a sub-compartment of your house when you're away so you avoid prosecution for what your animal does when you are away. So it's just as I feared it was, a deranged denial of the protection of private property. The UK can do a lot better than that. These kinds of laws encourage criminals to commit property crimes.

Maybe you're not ready for a poster on this board to criticize your country's laws but sometimes that's going to happen here sir, and you should have some tolerance for it when it does.

http://www.telegraph...itas-study.html

*snipped irrelevant and pointless parts

UK Policeman: Yes I see now, you are quite guilty. Quite guilty indeed young man! It's a good thing that Sky Scanner took over our department. Our prosecution of dog owners has skyrocketed since he started posting our guidelines.

I've answered this time and time again, and I repeat again, I haven't sided with any particular angle on this, I haven't said our laws are beyond reproach, I haven't said the Welsh proposals will work, and i've said it'll be interesting to see what they do with them, and if they're ammended in debate. I've also said that prosecution only occur if the CPS find sufficient evidence. I'm not going to sit and write some long winded scenario out for you, because the scenario was given, the scenario is additional evidence like cctv etc, it has also been pointed out to you that in your "scenario" I can't see it likely there would be a prosecution, since there's hardly any evidence.

So, given all this has been explained to you time and time again, given that all your points have been addressed time and time again, why are you insisting on lying about what i've said, and ignoring the answers given? ..and if you're not trolling as you claim you're not, then what exactly is your problem?

[skookum]

UK law is ridiculous when it comes to defending your property.

Many years ago when I lived in Kent I had an intruder walk into my conservatory in broad daylight. He was about 13 years old, I was in the living room with headphones on so didn't hear him. My dog's did and ran out to investigate. The little sod panicked at the sight of two big Boxer dogs and ran into the garden and quickly scaled the gate he had climbed over to get in. I heard the dogs barking so I ran out into the garden to see the little sod fall over as he was climbing down the other side. I saw him pick up his glasses and he stood there calling me every f and c word he could think of. I called the police who came out and confirmed he was probably the kid who was responsible for a lot of daylight burglaries in the area. They knew who he was from description so went off to arrest him.

About 40 minutes later the Police arrived back with a scruffy, drunk mess of bloke who turned out to be the kids father. They had complained to the police about my dogs saying he was merely looking for his football and my dogs had scared him. Falling over my gate had caused him to rip his trousers and break his glasses so the police said I would have to pay compensation to them of £250. I refused and was then threatened with arrest and confiscation of my dogs. After consulting a duty solicitor I agreed to pay as it looked like the law was only interested in charging me and were not interested in the slightest in his thieving ways. They managed to up the compensation to £350 and I begrudgingly had to pay.

Two months later he was spotted robbing a house 3 doors up from me.