Genesis Chapter 1

[David Henson]

David, I have the Oxford press.... Is there a better translation?

I think that the New World Translation is the most accurate.

[Abramelin]

Maybe some of you might find this interesting:

A Mechanical Translation of the Book of Genesis

The Hebrew text literally translated word for word

Jeff A. Benner 2007

Contents

This book will include two translations. The first is the Mechanical

Translation (MT), located in the left column, where every Hebrew word,

prefix and suffix is translated exactly the same way every time they

occur and in the same order as it is found in the Hebrew text. The second

is the Revised Mechanical Translation (RMT), located in the right

column, which re-arranges the words so that they can be understood

through standard English grammar. Included with each verse is the

Hebrew text (Biblia Hebraica Leningradensia) for those who know, or

are learning, Hebrew and is located above the MT and RMT.

Because the meaning of a Hebrew word cannot be conveyed completely

through one or two English words, each word found in the MT will be

included in the dictionary located at the back of this book. This

dictionary will more accurately define each word within the context of

the Ancient Hebrew language and culture.

Also included at the back of this book is a concordance allowing the

reader to search for each occurrence of a word within the book of

Genesis.

The project

This book is the beginning of a series of translations of the books of the

Bible which will, for the first time, translate the Hebrew text of the Bible

literally into English without inserting a translators interpretation of the

text.

http://www.ancient-h...e-books/mtg.pdf

.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Abramelin

[+Paranoid Android]

Maybe some of you might find this interesting:

I've only read the introduction so far, but assuming the scholarship is sound, I think this may be a very useful tool. Thanks for the heads up on it, I look forward to delving into it

[redhen]

Peleg lived from 2269 to 2030 B.C.E. His very name means "Division," as Genesis 10:25; 11:9 says, "in his days the earth was divided."

I think the only mention of this Peleg though is in the OT.

So sometime during that period. Skarkalisharri, the king of Agade (Accad) mentions restoring a temple tower at Babylon, which suggests it existed prior to his reign.

But not necessarily so.

Do you have any extra-Biblical sources for this "scattering that took place after the tower of Babel." ?

Is it your belief that during this time, all of humanity lived on one continent (Pangaea) ?

[freetoroam]

Genesis 1:6: And God went on to say: “Let an expanse come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.”

2 Peter 3:5-6: For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water.

The two verses above are talking about a water vapor canopy that surrounded the Earth until it was used in the flood. With such a vapor the Earth's climate would be much warmer, a tropical climate for the most part. The canopy would also have protected early man from harmful radiation. Notice the lifespan reduced significantly after the flood. It went from late hundreds to 120. The common scientific estimation of life expectancy during the time of King David is 35 to 40 years old. David himself I would trust more than scientific estimation, wrote: "In themselves the days of our years are seventy years; And if because of special mightiness they are eighty years," Psalm 90:10.

Often Genesis 6:3 is mistaken as being a maximum lifespan of 120 years when in fact it was the amount of years from Jehovah announcing there would be a flood and the coming of that flood.

Noah is allegedly supposed to have lived for 950 years, do you think that is a logical age?

[David Henson]

I think the only mention of this Peleg though is in the OT.

Most likely.

But not necessarily so.

Absolutely. I'm inclined to doubt it. Too little information. Its possible, but, that's all I know.

Do you have any extra-Biblical sources for this "scattering that took place after the tower of Babel." ?

I think language and religion itself are powerful indicators, then there are the common thread in mythology. People in northern Burma have stories of old that we all at one time lived in one large village and spoke the same tongue, we started to build a tower to the moon but since it required working on separate levels they lost touch with one another and gradually acquired different customs, and speech.

In northern Siberia the Yenisei-Ostyaks have the legend of the people who had saved themselves from a flood by floating on rafters until a strong north wind scattered them so that they began to speak different languages and form different peoples. The early Aztecs thought that after the Flood a giant built a hill that reached to the clouds. This angered the gods who then cast fire or a stone down upon them from heaven. The Maya have Votan, the first human helping to build a huge house that reached into the heavens. It turned out to be "the place where God gave every tribe its particular language." The Maidu Indians from California claim that at a funeral ceremony everyone suddenly started speaking in different languages.

Is it your belief that during this time, all of humanity lived on one continent (Pangaea) ?

I wouldn't say that it was a belief of mine, I would say that it certainly seems plausible and could possibly explain a great deal.

[White Crane Feather]

Oxford Press is a publishing company. it has several translations in print. If you are referring to "The New Oxford Annotated Bible", it's just a regular RSV (Revised Standard Version) with some annotations and essays attached (and the Apocrypha).

Hehe and you would be right of course.

[White Crane Feather]

And you would be right David. In life expectancy calculations of ancient societies infants and young children are included in the average. Haveing a fairly high infant mortality in those times, our picture of life expectancy is severely scewed. If a child made it past 5, in most ancient civilizations, their life expectancies jumped tremendously. It wasn't that people died at a much younger age than we do now, it's was simply difficult to get a child out of child hood. People that made it, actually lived close the the ages that we have now, especially if you take out violent deaths, or deaths during child birth. Statistics can be horribly misleading or amazingly Revealing.

To me this is consistent with the idea that those before the fall would have led a healthier longer life.

Just to add to this, infectious disease and famine, brought the expectancy slightly down in condensed agricultural based societies while hunter gatherers either pre agriculture or that did not have any contact with agricultural based societies did not have nearly as much famin or disease problems. Ironically last night when I was starting to read this thread I was watching a national geographic program called "the real Jesus". As I was writtiing my posts to David a scientist was on showing that most children during that time were malnourished.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Seeker79

[+Paranoid Android]

Hehe and you would be right of course.

Don't get me wrong, the New Oxford Annotated Bible is a great resource. I'm not the greatest fan of the RSV, but it's a solid translation. The annotations are what makes the Bible great source material. I bought a copy of this on recommendation of various people, and in Australia no outlet sells it so I had to get it ordered special through the bookshop. As such, the price cost me double that of any other Bible I've ever owned. It was worth every cent, I'd pay it again if I have to.

That's not to say that it's perfect, it's just one of several resources I use to get an overall picture of the Bible rather than just one limited view.

[White Crane Feather]

Don't get me wrong, the New Oxford Annotated Bible is a great resource. I'm not the greatest fan of the RSV, but it's a solid translation. The annotations are what makes the Bible great source material. I bought a copy of this on recommendation of various people, and in Australia no outlet sells it so I had to get it ordered special through the bookshop. As such, the price cost me double that of any other Bible I've ever owned. It was worth every cent, I'd pay it again if I have to.

That's not to say that it's perfect, it's just one of several resources I use to get an overall picture of the Bible rather than just one limited view.

I emailed professors at several universities they all came back with the same recommendation. When I'm in the mood I love to read it with the notations. Especially the notes and how different the stories are when put into context then when I was taught. My kid comes back from religous education at my wife's church every Sunday, and I sit down with him and go over what he has learned and I make sure he is getting the most accurate picture I can find. Its been a blessing.

[+Paranoid Android]

I emailed professors at several universities they all came back with the same recommendation. When I'm in the mood I love to read it with the notations. Especially the notes and how different the stories are when put into context then when I was taught. My kid comes back from religous education at my wife's church every Sunday, and I sit down with him and go over what he has learned and I make sure he is getting the most accurate picture I can find. Its been a blessing.

The Oxford Annotated Bible is not without its own bias, though. As I said, it's one source I use, of many. I also have another annotated Bible, also well researched, but from a theological point of view rather than an academic. It provides a more traditional religious slant rather than a purely academic. It too has its bias, so on top of that I have several other commentaries and texts I use, as well as a copy of the Bible in the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic (and since I don't read those languages, I have a dictionary to look up precise definitions, and in particular alternative interpretations of the words).

Only after consulting all these sources am I reasonably satisfied that I have researched appropriately. Contextual research is a long process, not quick or easy. The version you have is (as you say) very good, but to use it at the expense of other forms of research is, in my opinion, limited.

[RavenHawk]

That's an awful lot of material, could you break it down for me and repost the possible similarities?

Yeah, there is a lot of material and it is still a work in progress. I had hoped that you would just look through it and tell me what the possible similarities were. When I have time, I'll sit down and try to get more into your post and I'll let you know.

[RavenHawk]

You don't have those sorts of problems with Bible dating. The Jews reported everything accurately, even their most serious flaws and failures. The dates were given and preserved much more carefully.

I have to disagree here to a point. From Abraham on, I would say it is pretty accurate but the first 11 chapters, the chronology has much to be desired. It's in these chapters that people like Bishop Ussher came up with the age of the Earth at being 6000 years old. And I don't think that the first chapters of Genesis were meant as an exact chronology. They are just a collection of important stories and events. The time lapse between verse 3 of chapter 1 and verse 9 could be billions of years and the creation of Adam and Eve could be anything up to 200,000 years ago. Noah's flood could be resultant from some glacial melt off from 12,000 to 100,000 years ago?? The level of sophistication in oral communication at that time would be very primitive compared to today. When Moses wrote these stories down for the first time from oral history, they were probably translated into contemporary language. So we may never know what exactly happened.

[RavenHawk]

have read bits of the old testament and was confused with the years they seemed to live back then, what do you think about them?

I think that they could have lived that long. We have genetic forensic anthropologists that can tell us when certain mutations entered our genome. I bet that they'll find some mutation that affects aging within the last 100,000 years and it will coincide with a glacial melt off or major flooding. Noah's flood marked the end of long lives. Aging became shorter and shorter. The flooding stirred up something in the environment that effected our genes.

[White Crane Feather]

The Oxford Annotated Bible is not without its own bias, though. As I said, it's one source I use, of many. I also have another annotated Bible, also well researched, but from a theological point of view rather than an academic. It provides a more traditional religious slant rather than a purely academic. It too has its bias, so on top of that I have several other commentaries and texts I use, as well as a copy of the Bible in the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic (and since I don't read those languages, I have a dictionary to look up precise definitions, and in particular alternative interpretations of the words).

Only after consulting all these sources am I reasonably satisfied that I have researched appropriately. Contextual research is a long process, not quick or easy. The version you have is (as you say) very good, but to use it at the expense of other forms of research is, in my opinion, limited.

That's usually the case with most things isn't it. Im just trying to ensure my children have different perspectives and options. They will ultimately make up their own minds when they are adults, my role is simply to prevent any kind of indoctrination. I want them to think critically about their choices and the information they receive a virtue that I see you share. Once a week after dinner we read from the bible and discuss the meaning of the story. The bible suits me for educating my children on morals and it makes my wife happy, but I also read to them from Buddhist writings, the begavagita, I can't find my quaran or we would use that to, and we also discuss native American legends and philosophy mostly when we are gardening or when teaching them bushcraft.

It's good to see you posting again, I was aware of your recent life changeing event and I was afraid you would not be back. You are such a credit to Christianity it be shame for Christ not to have the kind of representation you provide on um.

[aryannatimothy]

Good read.

[J. K.]

I have seen many arguments that the Biblical account of the Creation/Flood/Dispersal was borrowed from other sources. It seems to me that those proponents are skipping over the possibility of oral history being involved. Sure, maybe they weren't written until the time of Moses, but that doesn't mean he created the stories himself. The stories could have been passed down through the generations, which would result in the stories evolving differently after the languages were scrambled.

[Frank Merton]

Very few scholars nowadays think Moses wrote the Pentateuch. It is a compilation of texts written at various times.

There are lots of resources on this, so those who persist with the traditional story about Moses really have no excuse for not becoming better informed.

[RavenHawk]

Very few scholars nowadays think Moses wrote the Pentateuch. It is a compilation of texts written at various times.

There are lots of resources on this, so those who persist with the traditional story about Moses really have no excuse for not becoming better informed.

Here's a nice little introduction:

http://en.wikipedia....tary_hypothesis

[freetoroam]

I think that they could have lived that long. We have genetic forensic anthropologists that can tell us when certain mutations entered our genome. I bet that they'll find some mutation that affects aging within the last 100,000 years and it will coincide with a glacial melt off or major flooding. Noah's flood marked the end of long lives. Aging became shorter and shorter. The flooding stirred up something in the environment that effected our genes.

Considering we descended from apes, are you saying it affected how the our cousins evolved into humans and how our lives were shortened through stage of evolution?

Forget the Noah and the Adam and Eve tripe, I am not even going there! lets just deal with facts here.

[RavenHawk]

<p>

Considering we descended from apes, are you saying it affected how the our cousins evolved into humans and how our lives were shortened through stage of evolution?

Yes and no. I'm talking about a mutation that has occurred in Homo sapiens in the past 200,000 years, i.e. CCR5-D32.

Forget the Noah and the Adam and Eve tripe, I am not even going there! lets just deal with facts here.

Does the fact that 261 cultures have a flood myth within their story of creation mean anything? I think this is strong evidence of a common origin. Therefore, explains why all humans today age at about the same rate.

Edited February 7, 2013 by RavenHawk

[freetoroam]

Does the fact that 261 cultures have a flood myth within their story of creation mean anything? I think this is strong evidence of a common origin. Therefore, explains why all humans today age at about the same rate.

A flood is not a myth! Earth has been through a few ice ages over the centuries, if there had been no floods i would be very surprised! As for age, I can not see how the floods would decrease the age span......now a drought, that I can understand!

But when you say within their story of creation? do you mean from the times of the apes through to the evolution of man? Pleeease, not adam and eve!!

[David Henson]

I have seen many arguments that the Biblical account of the Creation/Flood/Dispersal was borrowed from other sources. It seems to me that those proponents are skipping over the possibility of oral history being involved. Sure, maybe they weren't written until the time of Moses, but that doesn't mean he created the stories himself. The stories could have been passed down through the generations, which would result in the stories evolving differently after the languages were scrambled.

No doubt, but the question is when. A lot of this depends upon the dates you place upon events in the stream of time as well as the notion of the poor scholarly consensus that the Bible portions in question were produced post exilic. Most Bible scholars fail miserably in the simple realization that for Moses to have written the account from Adam would have required only 5 people. That they lived for nearly a thousand years makes a substantial difference.

[David Henson]

Very few scholars nowadays think Moses wrote the Pentateuch. It is a compilation of texts written at various times.

There are lots of resources on this, so those who persist with the traditional story about Moses really have no excuse for not becoming better informed.

Not that I would place too much import upon what scholars say, but specifically what school of thought would these scholars subscribe? Apostate Christianity or the destructive higher criticism. Perhaps, but doubtfully, more importantly is what they base their conclusion on. P, J, E? Its nonsensical and without substantiation. J used the term elohim, which simply means God and is also applied to Dagon and other gods. E used the name Jehovah.

[David Henson]

Considering we descended from apes, are you saying it affected how the our cousins evolved into humans and how our lives were shortened through stage of evolution?

Forget the Noah and the Adam and Eve tripe, I am not even going there! lets just deal with facts here.

If Adam were alagorical he wouldn't appear in the Chronology as having offspring, and more importantly, he wouldn't have sinned and so there would be no point for a Messiah to take away his sin. Just like if Moses hadn't written the Pentateuch Jesus wouldn't have said: "In fact, if you believed Moses you would believe me, for that one wrote about me. But if you do not believe the writings of that one, how will you believe my sayings?” (John 5:46-47)

Note to scholars: Jesus didn't say J, E and P.

Its a thinly veiled attempt to dismiss the Biblical authority.

The North American Dream

The puritans had no recourse to the law of the land where the heathen resided in relative peace and harmony. Names and languages must be forgotten. Spirits must be broken. Swept under the bitter cold progress of a trail of tears . . . history . . . repeats itself.

Advice to the smartly dressed intellectual digging in the remains of the pictographic and written histories. The former is subject to your myopic assumption but the latter - don't insult my intelligence with your obvious limitations.

Edited February 8, 2013 by David Henson