SETI search shows no signs of intell. life

[bison]

Humans suffer from anthropomorphism or we tend to assign human characteristics to non-human objects, e.g. Aesop's fables, human face on Mars' surface etc. We expect the billions of random events, or engineered events depending upon one's philosophical bent, that allowed us to evolve to our current state has also occurred elsewhere and evolved a comparable entity who communicates in much the same manner ... That's a very lofty expectation.

Please explain what is specifically'anthropomorphic' about communicating via radio waves. Electromagnetic radiation of various wavelengths exists throughout the universe. It is easily generated and detected. Why should another technical civilization not become aware of it, at some point in its development? Why should it's usefulness as a means of communications at a distance not be readily apparent to any rational mind, regardless of the particular form that houses that mind?

[psyche101]

The desire, obviously, is to learn something about intelligent life in the universe, at the earliest opportunity. We stand a much better chance of doing so by radio contact, than by waiting until we can travel to other solar systems. The mindset that allows the creation of radio technology is probably not unique to humans. It could easily occur in most technical civilizations, very early on, as it did with us.

The fact that some better communications technology may be developed by more advanced technical civilizations, should not deter us. It is entirely possible that some modestly more advanced civilizations may be interested in communicating with us. They should be smart enough to use a method that we can detect. Radio just naturally suggests itself, at our level of development.

Good God it seems almost surreal to be on the same page with you. Normally we agree on little, but in this case not so.

[Hazzard]

Good God it seems almost surreal to be on the same page with you. Normally we agree on little, but in this case not so.

I think its to early to say either way, as we only have an example of one to go by.

[psyche101]

I think its to early to say either way, as we only have an example of one to go by.

I have much faith in communications as an initiator though. I cannot see why one would cross space when you can make a phone call.

[spud the mackem]

We class ourselves as Intelligent Life,yet we are not intelligent enough to stop wars,or feed the starving hungry,nor accomodate poor people with homes,nor educate the poor.Yet we are seeking out other civilisations.?.What king of intelligence is that ?.

[psyche101]

We class ourselves as Intelligent Life,yet we are not intelligent enough to stop wars,or feed the starving hungry,nor accomodate poor people with homes,nor educate the poor.Yet we are seeking out other civilisations.?.What king of intelligence is that ?.

I do not think any of the above has anything to do with intelligence, it has everything to do with greed though.

[Frank Merton]

Humans suffer from anthropomorphism or we tend to assign human characteristics to non-human objects, e.g. Aesop's fables, human face on Mars' surface etc. We expect the billions of random events, or engineered events depending upon one's philosophical bent, that allowed us to evolve to our current state has also occurred elsewhere and evolved a comparable entity who communicates in much the same manner ... That's a very lofty expectation.

We might as well make anthropomorphic assumptions as we start on this venture; it improves our odds.

[Frank Merton]

Personally I don't think "they" are out there close enough that we stand any chance of ever encountering them. This comes from considerations regarding evolution and how unlikely we in reality are.

However, these considerations could easily be way wrong, so I think it behooves us to look every way we can think of regardless.

[highdesert50]

The assignment of anthropomorphic attributes suggests that the other entities have the same social, emotional, and mental capabilities of humans. As researchers we need to be cognizant that even on this planet, where we share the same eco-system, we see significant diversity in lifeforms. This is not to say we should not be empathetic, but we should not assume our traits are those of other forms. For example, look to your cat, he has a very limited vocabulary, yet how many of us speak in "cat." Rather, we typically expect the cat to learn our behaviors and communicate its desires to us. Similarly, we make the assumption that an evolved intelligence of another world will communicate in a form that suites our telecommunications expectations. We also assume that the "ingredients" to form the vacuum tubes, transistors, or integrated circuits exist as do comparable atmospheric conditions that permit radio waves of a expected frequency spectrum to escape the planet. If indeed, this were to all come together and we received radio (RF) communication, then the event would be a miracle of the proportion that might argue that we are purposefully engineered and not just a random compilation of evolutionary events. Or, one might argue, that a sufficiently evolved intelligence might "tailor" an RF transmission to meet our expectations. If so, they are probably already amongst us.

[Just Dave]

As reply to topic title; It is too early to say such things... They are scaning the space for almost 7 decades yet they good fast scan of 86 planets in 3 months now that was a thoroughly job i say...

[psyche101]

The assignment of anthropomorphic attributes suggests that the other entities have the same social, emotional, and mental capabilities of humans. As researchers we need to be cognizant that even on this planet, where we share the same eco-system, we see significant diversity in lifeforms. This is not to say we should not be empathetic, but we should not assume our traits are those of other forms. For example, look to your cat, he has a very limited vocabulary, yet how many of us speak in "cat." Rather, we typically expect the cat to learn our behaviors and communicate its desires to us. Similarly, we make the assumption that an evolved intelligence of another world will communicate in a form that suites our telecommunications expectations. We also assume that the "ingredients" to form the vacuum tubes, transistors, or integrated circuits exist as do comparable atmospheric conditions that permit radio waves of a expected frequency spectrum to escape the planet. If indeed, this were to all come together and we received radio (RF) communication, then the event would be a miracle of the proportion that might argue that we are purposefully engineered and not just a random compilation of evolutionary events. Or, one might argue, that a sufficiently evolved intelligence might "tailor" an RF transmission to meet our expectations. If so, they are probably already amongst us.

I do not see it as so much of a problem. Math is Universal, not matter what language you speak 1+1still = 2. Radio waves also abound in the system, despite concerns of "archaic" technology or methods, if Aliens are listening to the stars, and I am sure they would, then they would be able to receive a transmission from us. We thought we were getting an Alien message that turned out to bea Pulsar. I do not think we need to pick up the phone and say "Hello ET, How is your system today?" But rather a slower process beginning with numbers, and perhaps evolving into a digital format. As in the movie/novel Contact, a prime number sequence would be recognised as an artificial source.

[Frank Merton]

I'm not sure mathematics is so universal, and if so why numbers? Why not music or geometry or something we haven't imagined. Still, numbers seems the best place to start.

[bison]

The assignment of anthropomorphic attributes suggests that the other entities have the same social, emotional, and mental capabilities of humans. As researchers we need to be cognizant that even on this planet, where we share the same eco-system, we see significant diversity in lifeforms. This is not to say we should not be empathetic, but we should not assume our traits are those of other forms. For example, look to your cat, he has a very limited vocabulary, yet how many of us speak in "cat." Rather, we typically expect the cat to learn our behaviors and communicate its desires to us. Similarly, we make the assumption that an evolved intelligence of another world will communicate in a form that suites our telecommunications expectations. We also assume that the "ingredients" to form the vacuum tubes, transistors, or integrated circuits exist as do comparable atmospheric conditions that permit radio waves of a expected frequency spectrum to escape the planet. If indeed, this were to all come together and we received radio (RF) communication, then the event would be a miracle of the proportion that might argue that we are purposefully engineered and not just a random compilation of evolutionary events. Or, one might argue, that a sufficiently evolved intelligence might "tailor" an RF transmission to meet our expectations. If so, they are probably already amongst us.

It seems likeliest that we would be able to communicate with extraterrestrial beings with at least somewhat similar mentalities, and who lived under conditions not too dissimilar to those found on Earth. Given the number of possible planets in this galaxy, it appears that there are more than ample opportunities for such life to exist.

In any case, there are a number of different ways of generating and detecting radio waves. There may be others, of which we are not even aware. All of these use different techniques and materials.

It seems unlikely that the atmosphere of a habitable planet would be opaque to all possible wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation. If one wavelength couldn't get through, they could use another. We have the same issues to deal with on this planet. Many wavelengths are absorbed by one part or another of our atmosphere.

[Asadora]

A great thread and wonderful comments which have made me consider this:

Putting aside everything we already 'know' (either know to be actual fact or know to be possible fact) let's consider what if -we- yes, us, Humans are the 'advanced' species and the reason as to why we haven't heard anything from anyone or any other beings, is that -they- are the ones that are not as technologically advanced as we are. I do not suggest this with a tone of Human vanity or Human elitism. This is purely from a 'what if' perspective (regardless of pure scientific fact or knowledge) This consideration is just one of the many hypothetical (as we actually do not know if we are really 'alone') reasons as to why we haven't had anyone knocking on our door or us being able to find a door in which to knock.

So far, according to the article the OP linked, we have only searched a very very small portion of our section of space. (visible section of space based on what our technology is able to provide us). And to be able to do that took some time to process.

Personally, I think overall given the time in which our technology has grown within the last 50 years and given how much our scientific 'awareness' has developed, I am more confident of us, Humans, being able to detect a signal that we may have already overlooked. Its akin to how our brains function when we read. The more we read the more familiar our brains get used to seeing certain words and those words are skipped over.

( http://www.bigsiteofamazingfacts.com/how-many-fs-are-in-the-sentence-below-and-why-do-so-many-people-see-only-three-fs-instead-of-six )

So, with that understanding, that is why I think we should allow for this and adjust our technological advancements accordingly. As far as I know, we develop our technology and so it makes sense to me to develop that technology on a scale that is not better than our brains but on a scale to where our technology can adjust to help our brains see or in this case 'hear' better, when we use that technology.

'Bark! Bark!'

"What is it?"

'BARK!'

"Hush now. It's no one at the door."

'BARK BARK!'

"Okay, okay. It's nothing I'm sure of it, but show me anyway."

'Bark. (wags tail)'

"What a clever boy! I just checked that mouse trap last week and saw nothing and totally forgot all about it. And yet you managed to tell let me know to go check it. I see there is now a deceased mouse there. Thanks for letting me know.'

I know the above example is a stretch... but I hope it does convey the 'concept' of which I tried to explain without losing the original intention of explanation.

(btw, we don't have mouse problem, but they do like to come inside during colder weather and it's winter in England here.)

Kind Regards.

[bison]

Even on general statistical principles, it's unlikely that we are the first technical civilization in the galaxy, or anywhere near it. There is also the fact that there are a multitude of much, much older stars in the galaxy with suitable compositions to form habitable planets. We have no solid reasons for assuming that life did not arise and progress on planets around many of those stars, long before our sun even formed.

The SETI scientists are gradually widening the types of signals they can detect, as it becomes technically feasible to do so. The SETI Institute, for which I do volunteer work, has us look through displays of radio energy collected by their radio telescope, and try to pick out significant patterns. They wish to know if the human brain and eye can detect signals, in some instances, which their computers can not.

[cultanorak]

Even if SETI did locate signs of extra terrestrial life on some other planet (which they probably already have) why would they tell the public?

[spud the mackem]

Our technology only took off in the early 1900's, and it now increasing faster daily,just think that your laptop is more powerfull now than what they had on Apollo 13,(quoted by NASA),but we are still babies at the game,so maybe in 50/100 years time we will have the technology to advance to something much more powerfull than radio waves, and then we might pick up a signal or two from beings who use (or have been using),a different sort of contact.Those who arnt as advanced as us will gradually catch up,if/when they discover Electricity.We have to learn to walk before we can run, in technological terms.One Day It Will Happen.

[bison]

Even if SETI did locate signs of extra terrestrial life on some other planet (which they probably already have) why would they tell the public?

Because the organizations that conduct SETI monitoring must struggle for funding, and are underfunded. They are not government entities. If they were to detect a legitimate SETI signal, their long search would be vindicated and funding would pour in. There would be a universal desire to learn as much about the signal as possible, and those who sent it. Edited February 12, 2013 by bison

[spud the mackem]

Even if SETI did locate signs of extra terrestrial life on some other planet (which they probably already have) why would they tell the public?

I dont think something that important could be kept a secret for very long,even the lowest grade worker at these establishments will have some idea that unusual things are happening.It only needs chat, in say the Canteen, to be overheard,and the thing is blown open.

[Sweetpumper]

SETI search shows no signs of intell. life

Are the arrays pointed at the White House?

[Hazzard]

Because the organizations that conduct SETI monitoring must struggle for funding, and are underfunded. They are not government entities. If they were to detect a legitimate SETI signal, their long search would be vindicated and funding would pour in. There would be a universal desire to learn as much about the signal as possible, and those who sent it.

There is that,... The original detectors of the signal should notify not just the scientists who put together the protocol, so that they can independently check it out. But also astronomers around the world, who then use every available telescope to study the source of the signal. If the signal is then confirmed to be that of alien communication, then the finding is spread to scientific channels along with the media.

Probably before that.

There will be no secrecy, and getting the word out quickly is important, as there would be an urgent need to have astronomers world-wide monitor any detected signal, 24 hours a day.

Here is more,... http://www.seti.org/faq

Edited February 12, 2013 by Hazzard

[bison]

It will probably be clear enough when a SETI signal is found, even before an official announcement, or a 'leak' from some insider. The volunteers at the SETI Live website have daily access to data delivered live from the Allen Telescope Array. If the telescope becomes fixed on a single sky position for an extended length of time, and no other explanation is offered, a SETI signal detection is a reasonable inference.

Even if the ATA was not the instrument which originally found the signal, it would, as a major SETI observatory, soon be brought into the process. I also monitor the current positional data of the large Lovell Telescope at the Jodrell Bank observatory website. It does not have a SETI program, as such, but as a major radio observatory would soon be involved, too, once a SETI discovery is made.

[psyche101]

I'm not sure mathematics is so universal, and if so why numbers? Why not music or geometry or something we haven't imagined. Still, numbers seems the best place to start.

I cannot see how it would not be. How many stars are in the sky? If aliens are indeed travelling, or even considering them, then they must have a count. No matter what form of communication or language, 1 + 1 = 2. Music is filled with complex algorithms, as a communications medium, it would be too complex.

Geometry is math I was taking it back a step from there to something basic, but not naturally occurring to get someone's attention at the very least. One would naturally build from there, and binary seems a good starting point to my way of thinking.

[psyche101]

It seems likeliest that we would be able to communicate with extraterrestrial beings with at least somewhat similar mentalities, and who lived under conditions not too dissimilar to those found on Earth. Given the number of possible planets in this galaxy, it appears that there are more than ample opportunities for such life to exist.

Unless the Australian Physicists are right, and physics are not uniform across the Galaxy. Life might be as abundant as we imagine, it might be rarer than we imagine. It;s one big guess with a dash of hope mixed in.

In any case, there are a number of different ways of generating and detecting radio waves. There may be others, of which we are not even aware. All of these use different techniques and materials.

Many exist in nature, they seem to be a good guideline to base such long range communications upon. The principal is there, it just requires some modification.

It seems unlikely that the atmosphere of a habitable planet would be opaque to all possible wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation. If one wavelength couldn't get through, they could use another. We have the same issues to deal with on this planet. Many wavelengths are absorbed by one part or another of our atmosphere.

If a species is indeed interested in space and communicating with other species, A satellite does not seem out of the question.

[psyche101]

Even if SETI did locate signs of extra terrestrial life on some other planet (which they probably already have) why would they tell the public?

Because the public can, and do, hear the same things. Radio Telescopes are quite common in the Astronomy community.