War Plan Red

[Little Fish]

What is this? I haven't been following those particular Conspiracies, but now people are trying to suggest that not all of the kids were actually shot? If so, this is definitely a contender for worst taste conspiracy theory of all time. Even more so than all the 9.11 ones, since those at least do see themselves as trying to right a wrong, wheras the only possible grounds for concocting Conspiracy theories concerning this would be paranoia about "taking away America's Guns ™".

so when someone suggests that some killings may have been faked, you get all indignant.

and when someone shows you actual documented plans to kill people, you get all indignant and assert (without evidence) that those plans were to be fake killings. hilarious.

the anti-truthers seem to have a unshakable religious belief in government benevolence.

[Babe Ruth]

Yes Lord, indignity is a cruel fate, alas!

As for me, I simply take some sort of desperate solace in the chance that IF Newtown were staged, THEN it is possible that nobody was actually killed, by Bushmaster or other means.

The point is that such IS POSSIBLE. And as we approach the 3 month anniversary of the event, more and more facts trickle out that do not particularly support the story. So, maybe nobody actually died. I take some measure of peace in that possibility.

[Rafterman]

Isn't it interesting that while Lemnitzer was sacked by JFK and went on to command NATO and such, it was JFK who was assassinated for not being a 'team player' and for having angered at least one of the Dulles brothers?

Who got the proverbial last laugh?

I love it when you guys try and prove an unproven theory with an unproven theory. Funny, last JFK thread around here blamed George Bush.

[Rafterman]

in your opinion.

"we could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo bay and blame it on Cuba"

"we could develop a communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington"

"a few plastic bombs"

"lobbing mortars into the base"

sure, all that could have been done with absolutely guaranteed no harm to anyone.

All of which could be done without harm to US citizens. In fact, if you read the other proposals, great care was taken NOT to endanger US life. It's clear than any violence would be against Cuban dissidents, not US citizens - again, we can argue the morality of that, but there was a clear line that was not to be crossed.

And, again, plan rejected.

[Rafterman]

Needless to say, he was not president on 9/11.

Bush was.

And there it is folks. The REAL reason behind all of this and why 95% of the 9/11 stuff has died down since 2009.

[Rafterman]

Q

Thanks very much for that fine detail on faked US casualty lists. To be honest, I have read only bits and pieces of the Northwoods documents, and was not aware of that detail.

If that tactic--false casualty lists--was proposed way back then, it seems logical that the same tactic could be planned and executed regarding the events of 11 September or even Newtown. IMO that is certainly the case with the "passengers" onboard the "hijacked airliners", and as time goes on 2 months later, it is appearing to be quite possible at Newtown.

I'm sorry, but anyone who believes that has some serious issues (I'm trying to phrase that in the nicest way possible).

I personally knew 3 people who lost their lives on 9/11. And I have friend of a friend relationships with two families who lost their children at Newtown.

Pull your head out of the ground man. People do evil things and it's not always the bad boogey man gummit doing everything.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Rafterman

[Space Commander Travis]

so when someone suggests that some killings may have been faked, you get all indignant.

and when someone shows you actual documented plans to kill people, you get all indignant and assert (without evidence) that those plans were to be fake killings. hilarious.

the anti-truthers seem to have a unshakable religious belief in government benevolence.

Yes, that's right, I think it is cause for indignation if someone suggested that the Govt. had faked the killing of twenty children, I think it would be. it's very funny that you talk about people asserting things without evidence, considering that the entire Conspiracy industry is based on grounds that are so shaky, if not completely imaginary.

[Professor Buzzkill]

I'm sorry, but anyone who believes that has some serious issues (I'm trying to phrase that in the nicest way possible).

I personally knew 3 people who lost their lives on 9/11. And I have friend of a friend relationships with two families who lost their children at Newtown.

Pull your head out of the ground man. People do evil things and it's not always the bad boogey man gummit doing everything.

You know two families affected by Sandy Hook? Why haven't you posted in this tread yet? http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=243006&st=75&p=4676478&hl=+question%20+on%20+sandy%20+hookentry4676478

Also, why would knowing people who died automatically make you a knowledgable authority on who was the murderer?

[Space Commander Travis]

You know two families affected by Sandy Hook? Why haven't you posted in this tread yet? http://www.unexplain...k

Also, why would knowing people who died automatically make you a knowledgable authority on who was the murderer?

according, it seems, to some theories, the deaths were apparently faked...

[Babe Ruth]

I love it when you guys try and prove an unproven theory with an unproven theory. Funny, last JFK thread around here blamed George Bush.

It took several to do what they did. Good book about it written by the British barrister William Pepper. Several +

[Babe Ruth]

I'm sorry, but anyone who believes that has some serious issues (I'm trying to phrase that in the nicest way possible).

I personally knew 3 people who lost their lives on 9/11. And I have friend of a friend relationships with two families who lost their children at Newtown.

Pull your head out of the ground man. People do evil things and it's not always the bad boogey man gummit doing everything.

I'm glad to hear that Rafterman, but it doesn't really change anything. Only on 911, the facts are not changed an iota by the fact that you knew 3 persons. The facts remain what they are--the OCT is a damn lie.

[shrooma]

War Plan Red's ultimate goal was to destroy Britain's ability and bring the British Empire to its knees. Canada was only the start. Eventually, it was planned to destroy all British troops in Canada and the North Atlantic.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2039453/How-America-planned-destroy-BRITAIN-1930-bombing-raids-chemical-weapons.html

.

I saw this article some time ago and found it very interesting indeed!

there was also a good CH5 documentary, 'america's secret war' on the subject.

hitler backing us in a war against america?!

with fairweather friends like that, who needs enemi.....

oh.

hang on a minute....

Edited February 24, 2013 by shrooma

[DONTEATUS]

Rafterman talking to BabeRuth is like talking to a Brick wall. ITs a freedom of speech I know in All most all Forums,But When people spew dribble and are not kind to the other members Thats not nice at all .

I too had a friend in the Towers that day,now gone forever,a family without there Dad,and wife without there Husband. So Sad. I watched it that morning and watched the second Air liner go into the Building Live real time.

THeres no excuse to people that claim anything but what happened that day ! TWO AIRLINERS CRASHED INTO THE TOWERS ! What part of the truth do these people not Get ? ITs actually the most Sad thing Ever !

[shrooma]

funny, I thought this thread was about 'war plan red', not about conspiracy theories.

try to stay on topic eh guys?

[redhen]

funny, I thought this thread was about 'war plan red', not about conspiracy theories.

try to stay on topic eh guys?

I started this thread with the link to the War Plan Red documentary because it is a very good example of some of the wild, outrageous plans are that conjured up in private think tanks and government defense departments. These people are paid to think up all kinds of threatening scenarios and opportunistic plans (sounds like a dream job to me). But just because there's a plan or a memo doesn't mean it's going to come to fruition.

I once came across a secret document (now declassified) that advocated for using nuclear weapons to "exploit the Canadian tar sands". Yeah, that one sat on the shelf too.

So yes, this thread does concern conspiracy theories. Governments, even democratic ones, conspire to do all kinds of whacky things. But eventually cooler (saner) heads prevail.

[Little Fish]

Governments, even democratic ones, conspire to do all kinds of whacky things. But eventually cooler (saner) heads prevail.

do you think the holocaust and stalin's purges were faked then? or maybe just happened by accident?

[Space Commander Travis]

do you think the holocaust and stalin's purges were faked then? or maybe just happened by accident?

is there any analogy there with "False Flag" conspiracies? Both Hitler & Stalin were quite open about their intentions; Stalin with his Show trials (which may not have been fair judicially, but were done publicly, against people who in his view were "enemies of the State"; the idea was to publicise it as much as possible. And hitler actually wrote a bestselling book that set out his plans and his, for want of a better word, thinking.

[Q24]

do you think the holocaust and stalin's purges were faked then? or maybe just happened by accident?

Yes, apparently redhen thinks that the Reichstag operation, the Gleiwitz incident, the Holocaust and perhaps even WW2 never happened... because you know, “cooler (saner) heads prevail”. Yet in the West the Nazi government was democratically elected and war thought justified by the German people. Of course, America a mere sixty odd years later was somehow immune to a warmonger leadership (despite that the roots of Neoconservatism can be traced to the Nazi era). Fortunately so, otherwise we could have ended up with some crazy wars in Afghanistan and Iraq on our hands based on false pretext. Chasing terrorists and WMDs – pathetic – even worse excuses than Operation Himmler.

Redhen’s whole argument here is like witnessing a war between America and the UK then claiming it cannot happen because War Plan Red was just contingency planning, for should the need arise. Even then, Operation Northwoods was more than that, a military proposal for immediate action, which reached the final hurdle of approval...

Northwoods was shelved only due to the intervention of JFK, the final hurdle.

Needless to say, he was not president on 9/11.

Bush was.

JFK/Bush... big difference, you understand?

And there it is folks. The REAL reason behind all of this and why 95% of the 9/11 stuff has died down since 2009.

Sure, because in 2001 a Neocon government came to power, unlike JFK who did much to contain CIA and U.S. military aggression, and in my opinion unlike Obama who is not quite on the same page as Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc.

[Space Commander Travis]

Yes, apparently redhen thinks that the Reichstag operation, the Gleiwitz incident,

All of which (plus operation Northwoods) were (I really don't understand why the Conspiracy industry really doesn't seem to understand this) on an absolutely different level entirely to 9/11. No one was killed in the Reichstag fire; indeed, there's a school of thought now that it may not have been a False Flag at all and that van der Lubbe may well have actually caused it entirely off his own bat, and Hitler leapt on it as just the opportunity he was looking for; the Gleiwitz incident (a Polish incursion over the border being faked to justify war against Poland) was on an infinitesimally smaller scale than the supposed enormities of the Bush administration. What we're asked to believe is that this means that the Neocons were many, many times worse than Hitler, in that they weren't content to just stage a few faked incidents, or even to set fire to a major public building when no one was around; no, they had to destroy a major public building in its entirety (and use Thermite or whatever, since just flying airliners into it wouldn't be sufficient) and kill thousands of their own citizens, in order to justify what they wanted to do. Do you really not see that operation Northwoods, or the Reichstag, or Gleiwitz, are no comparison at all with 9.11, and really can't be used in order to say that there are precedents?

[Little Fish]

is there any analogy there with "False Flag" conspiracies? Both Hitler & Stalin were quite open about their intentions; Stalin with his Show trials (which may not have been fair judicially, but were done publicly, against people who in his view were "enemies of the State"; the idea was to publicise it as much as possible. And hitler actually wrote a bestselling book that set out his plans and his, for want of a better word, thinking.

but i was wondering what redhen thinks about it since he claimed that cooler heads always prevail. surprised you didn't take him to task over his statement since you clearly think it false.

furthermore, you accept that governments will kill their people, but they won't lie about it?

and there was me thinking that governments lie all of the time, sheesh do i need to rethink things!

Edited February 25, 2013 by Little Fish

[Little Fish]

No one was killed in the Reichstag fire

they chopped off van der lubbe's head, why doesn't that count?

[Space Commander Travis]

but i was wondering what redhen thinks about it since he claimed that cooler heads always prevail. surprised you didn't take him to task over his statement since you clearly think it false.

furthermore, you accept that governments will kill their people, but they won't lie about it?

and there was me thinking that governments lie all of the time, sheesh do i need to rethink things!

Hitler & Stalin both killed specific groups of people, those who Stalin thought might be a threat to him, and those who Hitler called enemies of the state, or who the Nazis classified as unpersons. - in other words, they were the ones who Hitler didn't regard as his own citizens. The concentration camps and the Gulags are quite different from any alleged 'false flag' operation.

they chopped off van der lubbe's head, why doesn't that count?

You really don't think there's a difference between finding a scapegoat [or perhaps the real culprit], and deliberately killing thousands of your own citizens? Perhaps the way that you look at things could do with a bit of recalibration, then. :-/

[Q24]

What we're asked to believe is that this means that the Neocons were many, many times worse than Hitler, in that they weren't content to just stage a few faked incidents, or even to set fire to a major public building when no one was around; no, they had to destroy a major public building in its entirety (and use Thermite or whatever, since just flying airliners into it wouldn't be sufficient) and kill thousands of their own citizens, in order to justify what they wanted to do. Do you really not see that operation Northwoods, or the Reichstag, or Gleiwitz, are no comparison at all with 9.11, and really can't be used in order to say that there are precedents?

Operation Northwoods and Operation Himmler (the Gleiwitz incident) are good precedents to the proposed 9/11 false flag attack. You focus only on deaths incurred during the actual operation, which fails to factor in that those operations had the intent of committing whole nations to war where a foreseeable greater many thousands would perish.

9/11 + Afghanistan + Iraq

= approx. 12,000 U.S. killed

Operation Himmler + WW2

= approx. 5 million+ Germans killed

We can only guess what the casualties of a U.S./Cuba war would have been, but in no way was 9/11 and the resultant action worse in the greater scheme than the two precedents mentioned – in the end these are all foreseeable deaths inherent of the initial operation.

In the cold light of day, what are 3,000 from a population of 300 million when shaping the very future of the globe?

“It is thus necessary that the individual should finally come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of the nation, that the position of the individual is conditioned solely by the interests of the nation as a whole.”

How do you think the most powerful politicians in the world value the individual next to pre-eminence of the United States itself? You think these people wouldn’t exchange you to secure that global pre-eminence? Those who shape the globe are on a completely different level to you or I.

[preacherman76]

I started this thread with the link to the War Plan Red documentary because it is a very good example of some of the wild, outrageous plans are that conjured up in private think tanks and government defense departments. These people are paid to think up all kinds of threatening scenarios and opportunistic plans (sounds like a dream job to me). But just because there's a plan or a memo doesn't mean it's going to come to fruition.

I once came across a secret document (now declassified) that advocated for using nuclear weapons to "exploit the Canadian tar sands". Yeah, that one sat on the shelf too.

So yes, this thread does concern conspiracy theories. Governments, even democratic ones, conspire to do all kinds of whacky things. But eventually cooler (saner) heads prevail.

So they pay these guys to sit around all day and dream up war plans that they know they will never ever use? You dont think its possible maybe this time around they picked the 9/11 plan (if it actualy existed) outta the hat, after they expressly said we werent using enough imagination to achieve thier empirical goals, and openly desired a new pearl harbor situation? You dont see any problem with the fact that we pay people to sit around and dream up these senerios? Its like you are making excuses for them. Kinda a Oh thats just what the government does, its totaly innocent. And the reason you think its innocent is cause you can point to plans made that werent implemented? So that automaticaly means no plans they make are ever implemented?

If a long list of dead bodies were found, all in one area, that happens to be in the same locality of a person or group of people who have made it known they dream of killing people would you hold that group to the same standard as the people in our government?

[redhen]

So they pay these guys to sit around all day and dream up war plans that they know they will never ever use?

They don't know if these plans will be implemented or not. That's why they are called plans and not operations.

You dont think its possible maybe this time around they picked the 9/11 plan (if it actualy existed) outta the hat, after they expressly said we werent using enough imagination to achieve thier empirical goals, and openly desired a new pearl harbor situation?

Sure it's possible. Many things are possible, but it is not plausible. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

You dont see any problem with the fact that we pay people to sit around and dream up these senerios? Its like you are making excuses for them. Kinda a Oh thats just what the government does, its totaly innocent.

If they didn't envisage all possible scenarios, they wouldn't be doing their jobs. Yes, that's exactly what I expect them to do.

And the reason you think its innocent is cause you can point to plans made that werent implemented? So that automaticaly means no plans they make are ever implemented?

If we were talking about some tin-pot dictator like Idi Amin or some totalitarian regime, like Iran, I would be worried. But we're not. We're talking the world's first modern democratic nation.

If a long list of dead bodies were found, all in one area, that happens to be in the same locality of a person or group of people who have made it known they dream of killing people would you hold that group to the same standard as the people in our government?

You mean like Al Qaeda? Hmm, let me think. Would I hold Al Qaeda to the same standards as I would the U.S. government? Um no.