Troubling Doctrines For Christians

[IamsSon]

I really don't care what you find in Revelations; I'm just pointing out what your teaching about God leads to. It leads to some sort of universal salvation -- maybe after many lives but that is where it leads. That you have a doctrine contridicting what you say about your God is your problem, and I would suspect will require many hard lives or maybe many eons in Purgation to cleanse yourself of.

The problem is you did not actually point that out, you simply gave your opinion on what infinite love, justice, and power lead to. I was able to show that your points are not the only possible outcome from those teachings.

I suspect that if there is an unforgivable sin, it would be limiting the reach of God's love with your own desires to see others punished.

There is a vast difference between wanting someone punished and pointing out that the outcome of someone's choices will lead to punishment. Edited March 23, 2013 by IamsSon

[Frank Merton]

You showed no such thing; or at least you may be convinced yourself but you are utterly unconvincing as a logician.

[IamsSon]

You showed no such thing; or at least you may be convinced yourself but you are utterly unconvincing as a logician.

I'm sorry you failed to understand.

[+Sherapy]

The problem is you did not actually point that out, you simply gave your opinion on what infinite love, justice, and power lead to. I was able to show that your points are not the only possible outcome from those teachings.

There is a vast difference between wanting someone punished and pointing out that the outcome of someone's choices will lead to punishment.

I think it is a fair question brought up by Frank, how do you work towards tolerance/love/justice when you proselytize for being saved or else be punished?

How does this contribute in a universal way to an unconditional love/justice for mankind?

Edited March 23, 2013 by Sherapy

[Frank Merton]

The way I see it is that the standard Christian Muslim teaching about Hell or some other form of eternal punishment flies in the face of the teaching that God is Love. They admit that God wants everyone to be saved, and then they find some way of asserting the mere humans can prevent God from getting what He wants. It really is blasphemous when you think about it carefully.

[Gummug]

I think I see what you're saying in your post #120 Frank, I think that would be true if the only way of knowing the future were through cause and effect, which to us humans is probably true, but since imo God is beyond cause and effect, being the uncaused cause, I think He is not limited by that. Anyway this is really beyond what I can understand so I don't think I'll try and explain or talk about it because I really don't understand it and maybe I only half understand what you're saying, although I think I see where you are coming from. Also I think what you are saying is based on a linear notion of time, that time flows seamlessly from the past into the present and then into the future (or the reverse depending on how you look at it), but I don't think it flows that way for God. He can see past, present, and future at the same time, I think. Anyway, this is something I really don't grasp myself although I heard a better explanation of it once, which unfortunately I can't reproduce here, so I guess I'll leave this subject alone.

[+Sherapy]

The way I see it is that the standard Christian Muslim teaching about Hell or some other form of eternal punishment flies in the face of the teaching that God is Love. They admit that God wants everyone to be saved, and then they find some way of asserting the mere humans can prevent God from getting what He wants. It really is blasphemous when you think about it carefully.

I think you bring in a good point, one worth exploring.

For me, it is simply not logical to call one 'Omni' anything and then position that this same source cannot get what they want.

[eight bits]

With a proviso...

The way I see it is that the standard Christian Muslim teaching about Hell or some other form of eternal punishment flies in the face of the teaching that God is Love.

Where does Islam teach that "God is love?"

As I read the Koran, Allah loves some, and is said not to love others. (see, for example, 2: 190-220 or so). I am not saying that's better or worse than a Christian view, but it would seem that there is a clear acknowledgment in Islam that there are some people Allah doesn't love, in which case, there wouldn't seem to be a consistency problem if Allah punishes those whom he doesn't love.

[danielost]

I think it is a fair question brought up by Frank, how do you work towards tolerance/love/justice when you proselytize for being saved or else be punished?

How does this contribute in a universal way to an unconditional love/justice for mankind?

Mormons believe that very few souls will go to hell(relitive speaking). Only the angels(demons) that turned against god to start with and those ho turn their backs on him in this life. Which is why we do baptisms for they dead' giving those who didn't get the chance and most of the ones that did a choice in the after life.

[+Sherapy]

Mormons believe that very few souls will go to hell(relitive speaking). Only the angels(demons) that turned against god to start with and those ho turn their backs on him in this life. Which is why we do baptisms for they dead' giving those who didn't get the chance and most of the ones that did a choice in the after life.

Thank you for your input Daniel. I have heard that In the Mormon faith you can get your dead relatives out of spirit prison.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Sherapy

[danielost]

Thank you for your input Daniel. I have heard that In the Mormon faith you can get your dead relatives out of spirit prison.

No, we can give them a choice. Spirit prison is not hell, paradise is not heavon. They are just waiting room. With teaching go on in spirit prison.

[+Sherapy]

No, we can give them a choice. Spirit prison is not hell, paradise is not heavon. They are just waiting room. With teaching go on in spirit prison.

A version of purgatory?

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

The way I see it is that the standard Christian Muslim teaching about Hell or some other form of eternal punishment flies in the face of the teaching that God is Love. They admit that God wants everyone to be saved, and then they find some way of asserting the mere humans can prevent God from getting what He wants. It really is blasphemous when you think about it carefully.

You're reading the Bible like an action-adventure novel. That's fine, but once you start accusing Christians of blasphemy, you go over your head. Mind you, I like your posts because they make me think, study the Bible, and go deeper inside. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of time to answer all of your earnest questions. You assume that all Christians have the same take on the Bible, and that they are all in the same level of understanding and diligence, but in the end, it's up to the Holy Spirit to write His presence in one's heart. You cannot buy off God's providence, BUT there must be a reason why a Christian have this feverish inclination. Take St. Paul's story for an example. There are no accidents in a Christian's life.

Hell is to be far away from the "Unconditional Love" presence of Jesus Christ. "Unconditional Love" is not an emotion, it's a state of being. I believe it's the intrinsic nature of Jesus or Holy Spirit -- from what I have gathered. It is power, itself. While in the flesh, Jesus Christ was very much aware of this. Please read Mark 5:25-38. So yes, first of all you have to REALLY accept Jesus Christ as your savior to get closer to that Christian salvation, Heaven, being with Christ throughout eternity. It's a process, a pilgrim's progress, as in diligently studying the Bible, meditation, prayers, giving money to the poor, trying to detach yourself from this material world, being available to the Holy Spirit, being honest to yourself (not another lip service), and so on. Some have more faith than others to get "healed," and I mean this in its all-encompassing definition. I cannot stress this enough -- in the end, it's God's will, not our will, to carve His presence into our hearts (but there's a reason why we are inclined to follow or seek Jesus Christ).

Peace to you, Frank.

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

Psalm 19:8

The precepts of the LORD are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the LORD are radiant, giving light to the eyes.

Psalm 19:10

They are more precious than gold, than much pure gold; they are sweeter than honey, than honey from the honeycomb.

Isaiah 5:13

Therefore my people will go into exile for lack of understanding; those of high rank will die of hunger and the common people will be parched with thirst.

John 7:37-38

On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”

[libstaK]

Hell is to be far away from the "Unconditional Love" presence of Jesus Christ. "Unconditional Love" is not an emotion, it's a state of being. I believe it's the intrinsic nature of Jesus or Holy Spirit -- from what I have gathered. It is power, itself. While in the flesh, Jesus Christ was very much aware of this. Please read Mark 5:25-38. So yes, first of all you have to REALLY accept Jesus Christ as your savior to get closer to that Christian salvation, Heaven, being with Christ throughout eternity. It's a process, a pilgrim's progress, as in diligently studying the Bible, meditation, prayers, giving money to the poor, trying to detach yourself from this material world, being available to the Holy Spirit, being honest to yourself (not another lip service), and so on. Some have more faith than others to get "healed," and I mean this in its all-encompassing definition. I cannot stress this enough -- in the end, it's God's will, not our will, to carve His presence into our hearts (but there's a reason why we are inclined to follow or seek Jesus Christ).

Peace to you, Frank.

Well put, I think you said the highlighted in blue posts better than I have seen them put for a long while.

I think it is God's will to honour the freedom of will he provided us, he would have us with him if WE wish it.

[danielost]

A version of purgatory?

Yes.

[Frank Merton]

I am at heart an atheist, as the only "God" available to me (other than some silly superman-type pagan entity) is the Abrahamic transcendent God. He has an assortment of logical problems attached to how he is defined, so I tend to think its all impossible.

Further, judgmental people, in flat-out disregard for Jesus' own words, have turned this being into a judgmental, reward/punishment God -- a god repulsive to older souls.

The idea is infinite power and infinite love (mercy, compassion). The first says that nothing we do can interfere with His getting His way, the second is that He wants and intends for everyone to be saved -- even if they reject it -- God is not something that can be rejected.

The logic is so plain that I cannot help but feel there is something perverse about those who preach otherwise. They should get on their knees and beg forgiveness for thinking something so horrible about Him.

The only flaw in my argument is the assertion that God is a being of infinite justice -- that His justice requires that all "sins" be appropriately punished (although how eternal damnation is just punishment for the sins of a short human lifetime escapes me). The thing is that it is easy to see all sorts of ways God could overcome this little difficulty -- some of which have been described above.

[ambelamba]

I've been raised in a multi-religious society, with some local religions that are not concerned with the supreme deity at all. In many folk religions in Korea, TEH supreme deity is just a vague concept that the practitioners don't really put that in mind.

[No Censorship]

I think it is a fair question brought up by Frank, how do you work towards tolerance/love/justice when you proselytize for being saved or else be punished?

How does this contribute in a universal way to an unconditional love/justice for mankind?

It's a fair question. The best thing that one can do is teach by example. Actions speak louder than words. Words, without actions, ring hollow and silent.

[No Censorship]

Jon K, thanks for your contribution to the thread. I'm not trying to find contradictions and mistakes in the Bible. I'm also not speaking for all Christians. I'm asking honest questions with no ulterior motives.

I realize that many Christians and many churches don't even believe in Hell. Still, the concept troubles me on an emotional level. I don't know how souls experience the passage of time, so I can't speak to that. Your theory very well may be correct.

I believe that all sins can be pardoned. The "unpardonable sin" is more of a *state* of unbelief, not a committed blasphemy, as we commonly understand it. Remember the Father and the Son are part of the Trinity. Anyway, this is just my take from ministers' interpretations of this.

I seem to share your views on how the New Testament and the Old Testament work together. The latter was the background for the former. Christian beliefs have roots in Judaism. They're the continuation of God's work on Earth.

As for slavery, it was no worse in the colonies. The Romans were brutal and savage in their treatment of "human chattel". The institution seldom has been kind to its victims, from the past to the present. Black slaves were part of a very tragic human continuum.

[No Censorship]

I've been raised in a multi-religious society, with some local religions that are not concerned with the supreme deity at all. In many folk religions in Korea, TEH supreme deity is just a vague concept that the practitioners don't really put that in mind.

I'm curious as to what Korean folk religions views on life are. Do they all see the Supreme Being in a vague way?

[+Paranoid Android]

Regarding the current discussion on "unconditional love", I'd like to enter into the argument a real life example of someone I know. He's a casual friend I know from down the local pub. I meet him every now and then when I play poker there on Fridays. I'll usually have a quick beer with him and just chat. Recently (a week ago), he shared with me about his son. I've known about the problems he and his son have had for some time. His son is a bit of a lazy bugger, and by that I mean he has no job, no desire to get a job, no desire to even pretend to look for one. As such, he has been cut off from government subsidised assistance because he doesn't even pretend. He's living on the street, unless he can find someone to lend a bedroom. His father used to allow him to stay at his house, but one too many times he'd wake up with his son gone and all his money stolen. He's losing people who are willing to give him a bed for the night because they wake up also and inevitably find something missing from their house also.

So back to the father. We were having a talk last week and he admitted this to me, and I remember it word-for-word (minus the replacement of my real name with my online persona). He said - "PA, I love my son, I really do. But I just don't like him very much. Can you understand that"?

Despite all the bad that his son has done, he still loves him. As a father he always will love him. That is the very essence of unconditional love, that despite everything else that happens, he will always be loved. But he doesn't like him very much. I submit to this discussion that when we think of God and "unconditional love", it should NOT be a case that God will simply give us everything regardless of how we act or behave. The view that a God of unconditional love would not ever consider sending us to hell is wrong. It is flawed, based on an unrealistic definition of "unconditional love". Of course, as anyone who knows me will attest, I don't believe this hell is eternal torture, so in this context I think it quite a valid point to suggest that just because God loves each and every one of us that he would therefore ignore our actions just because we think he should.

Just thought I'd share

~ Regards,

Edited March 25, 2013 by Paranoid Android

[Frank Merton]

That is why I tend to think we live more than one life. We work through what we do and deal with the consequences.

[danielost]

Mormon' teaching says that hell is so pretty that you would kill youself to go there. Of course, if you did you would. As for jugdement day, god isn't the one who will judge, youwill judge yourself. Remember, evil cannot abide in the presence of god. I guess that would be like doing something when you was a kid, and your dad calls you in.

[Frank Merton]

That you will judge yourself sounds sophomoric. I would prefer a point system.