Guns save lives thread

[Yamato]

Yamato.

Don't know if you're aware of this, but what you've posted came from a right wing paper trying to convince people that Britain was going down the toilet.

Unfortunately they failed to inform their readers that there is a large difference between how the UK and USA defines violent crime.

In the UK it's any violence - from murder to a punch on the nose. In the USA it only applies to the most serious offences. Eg, murder, manslaughter and sexual offences.

That's why most sociologists look to the murder rate as a more accurate measure of violence. And there's no contest there. America's murder rate is quadruple that of Britain.

What you've posted compares apples with horses.

Unfortunately they failed to inform their readers that there is a large difference between how the UK and USA defines violent crime. In the UK it's any violence - from murder to a punch on the nose. In the USA it only applies to the most serious offences. Eg, murder, manslaughter and sexual offences. That's why most sociologists look to the murder rate as a more accurate measure of violence. And there's no contest there. America's murder rate is quadruple that of Britain.

Do you see the US on that table? The difference between how the UK and the US define violent crime is irrelevant because the US isn't even there.

[Beckys_Mom]

I and many others never reported the incidents that saved our lives with a gun...so I know for a fact the numbers are higher, BM.

And I would well beleive it Michelle... Many people are so grateful for a gun that saved their lives and EVEN the lives of their children

If someone saved my life with a gun, I would be forever grateful and I can't ever imagine wanting them banned.. But that's just me...

Didn't you once note that your life was saved by a gun? ( Unless I am mistaken ) If this is true, well I am glad you were saved..

[Beckys_Mom]

well ... a proper warning would do all a world of good ...

yup ... I wonder if they'll came back and let us know ...

~

This gave me a laugh..I am taking this for my Facebook . . * snatches sign...YOINK*

Edited June 17, 2013 by Beckys_Mom

[Arbenol]

Do you see the US on that table? The difference between how the UK and the US define violent crime is irrelevant because the US isn't even there.

Apologies. I should have been clearer. The original article was used To compare with the US. The principle of how these stats are collected is what's relevant. Nations vary considerably in how they define violent crime, but not murder. Murder rates are the most reliable measure of violence.

[SHaYap]

This gave me a laugh..I am taking this for my Facebook . . * snatches sign...YOINK*

Hey !!! YOINK ??

Oh okay ...

~

[Guest]

I'm saying that it's gun laws don't prevent it from winning the ugly contest for violent crime. Whatever Br was on about "snake oil" I have no idea. His link to some blog? And he's calling my facts "snake oil"? I'm not going to take that seriously sorry.

I don't even know what that means. We select violent crime stats because that's what we care about. If someone doesn't care about violent crime, they might reply with whatever that just said.

His link is answering to claims I didn't make. I never said that violent crime was 4 or 5 times worse. I never dropped a stat for the US that measures violent crime differently. The numbers that I just provided in a table that's impossible to misunderstand measures violent crime consistently across countries using EU metrics. Br and you too should acknowledge this.

I doubt the methodology is in any way consistent across the EU, since there is no standard reporting protocol.

I also pointed out a very specific reason why the UK tends to have relatively high violence rates which has a significant baring on this argument since drunken brawls between youths do not constitute a serious threat to any other demographic and would be considerably more serious if we armed our youth.

“Just under half of all violent crime is connected to alcohol, and drunken brawls have made many town centres no go areas for law-abiding citizens.

http://mancunianmatters.co.uk/content/23032804-binge-drinking-britain-greater-manchester-mp-questions-governments-price-unit-alcoh

The question of what you do about drunken brawling is an entirely different matter, but it certainly places the claimed prevalence of criminal violence into a very different context and largely refutes the claim that the UK is plagued by criminals intent of inflicting murder on their victims.

Br Cornelius

Edited June 17, 2013 by Guest

[Beckys_Mom]

Hey !!! YOINK ??

Oh okay ...

~

Every time I hear the word - YOINK.. I think of a clip from The Simpsons.. Some mad guy going around stealing all the paintings and saying YOINK each one he snatches and runs off with...

Also, I don't have many funny pictures, so I snatch them when I see them YOINK YOINK YOINK!!

[SHaYap]

Every time I hear the word - YOINK.. I think of a clip from The Simpsons.. Some mad guy going around stealing all the paintings and saying YOINK each one he snatches and runs off with...

Also, I don't have many funny pictures, so I snatch them when I see them YOINK YOINK YOINK!!

was it YOINK ? I always thought it was 'BOINK' ...

`

[Kowalski]

[Beckys_Mom]

The first one I have seen before, but this one is new to me..Too funny...

[Kowalski]

The first one I have seen before, but this one is new to me..Too funny...

I thought it was pretty funny myself. Never seen that one before...

[Kowalski]

[Kowalski]

[aztek]

So i can't bring up the Country i live in? Where gun controls actually ended up working?

it didn't, taking guns away in your country did not reduce crimes, at all, it actually raised it, we have data posted in many threads.

your country gun control came as a knee jerk reaction to port artur shooting.

you never had a crime rate in a first place, that droped due to gun control, so no gun control didn't actually work, wich actually was not control at all, but a confiscation.

but one thing i got to give australian gvmnt, they brainwashed most of their sheeps into believeing they actually acomplished something, for the benefit of the herd, lol. but we have enough australians here that didn't buy into this sham. not you thou.

[Guest]

it didn't, taking guns away in your country did not reduce crimes, at all, it actually raised it, we have data posted in many threads.

your country gun control came as a knee jerk reaction to port artur shooting.

you never had a crime rate in a first place, that droped due to gun control, so no gun control didn't actually work, wich actually was not control at all, but a confiscation.

but one thing i got to give australian gvmnt, they brainwashed most of their sheeps into believeing they actually acomplished something, for the benefit of the herd, lol. but we have enough australians here that didn't buy into this sham. not you thou.

More bull****, will it never end;

http://www.factcheck...l-in-australia/

Leading US pro-gun lobby group, the National Rifle Association (NRA) was cherry picking when it’s publication, NRA News reported this statistic from New South Wales:

In the inner west, robberies committed with firearms skyrocketed more than 70% over the previous year, figures show.

Rather than giving the national trend over many years, the NRA chose one part, of one city, in one state and just two years of data. The NRA’s use of stats is misleading. Around Australia, robberies using firearms have declined from over 1500 per year in the 1990s to 1100 per year.

........

When the most relevant statistics give the “wrong” answer, advocates often switch to less relevant statistics that give the “right” answer.

In the Wall Street Journal, Joyce Lee Malcolm stated

In 2008, the Australian Institute of Criminology reported a decrease of 9% in homicides and a one-third decrease in armed robbery since the 1990s, but an increase of over 40% in assaults and 20% in sexual assaults.

The implication is gun control has increased assaults and sexual assaults. This is completely misleading.

Weapons (including knives) are only used in 13% of assaults and 2% of sexual assaults in Australia. Firearms are rarely the weapon used, and only 0.3% of assaults in New South Wales used firearms.

Firearm use is almost completely irrelevant to assault and sexual assault in Australia, and cannot be driving changes in these crimes. Suggesting otherwise is deceptive.

...........

If all else fails, there is a remarkably simple solution. Just make up some numbers. Over 300,000 people have recently viewed copies of an NRA tabloid infomercial which claims

“[Australian] gun murders increased 19%“.

This is just plain wrong.

...........

So what is the reality? Homicide and suicide rates have declined in Australia since the 1990s. Deaths results from firearms have plunged even more dramatically. In Australia, mass shootings similar to Port Arthur, Hoddle Street and Strathfield have not occurred for over a decade.

Is this the result of the gun laws introduced by the Howard government? While some (particularly gun advocates) dispute their impact, several studies conclude the laws have made a difference.

Claims that Australian gun laws have increased crime are pure spin and deception. They say more about American partisan politics than about the reality in Australia.

http://theconversati...ime-stats-11678

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

It seems your the sheepie here.

Br Cornelius

Edited June 17, 2013 by Guest

[Yamato]

Apologies. I should have been clearer. The original article was used To compare with the US. The principle of how these stats are collected is what's relevant. Nations vary considerably in how they define violent crime, but not murder. Murder rates are the most reliable measure of violence.

Except you have to demonstrate that the way the stats are collected is different between what was actually on the table in order to be relevant to my input to the discussion. The UK looks bad because it is bad. The UK isn't worthy of being some kind of implied role model for the US it's constantly argued to be by the Euro crowd, and even that's under the false pretense that the US doesn't even have 2nd Amendment rights guaranteed by law.

If we keep data sources consistent and compare the US and the UK using UN survey data for total crime, the UK isn't five times worse, it isn't four times worse, it's almost three times worse than the US.

Total Crime over Total Population 2002:

UK: 6,523,706/58,789,194 = 0.11096

US: 11,877,218/287,630,000 = 0.04129

http://www.nationmas...me-total-crimes

Even the source Br linked us to admitted the UK was far worse than the US if the way violent crime gets measured is the same, if anyone who posted it actually bothered to read it all the way to the bottom. Parroting predictable statistics that gun homicides are going to be higher in the US while ignoring total crime sans murder isn't a reliable measure to set policy and even that's in the false light as if there is no 2nd Amendment. Any European who doesn't think I have the right to pull out my gun and defend myself and my home really needs to pick up a copy of the rule of law in the US and read it.

Every crime prevented doesn't seem to matter to a gun hating European and those never make it to the statistics we love to tout. Then there's the blind rhetorical denials that guns prevent crimes before they become a part of the statistics, despite the examples of this being presented to people over and over again. Their minds are made up, their ways are best, don't bother them with common sense or examples that prove them wrong.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Yamato

[F3SS]

Every crime prevented doesn't seem to matter to a gun hating European

That's what this thread was all about until it was jacked by some nosy Euros and an Aussie or two. Everything else you said was right and Becky's source about how the reported millions of times a gun has been used for good should've pretty much ended all this.

[Arbenol]

Except you have to demonstrate that the way the stats are collected is different between what was actually on the table in order to be relevant to my input to the discussion. The UK looks bad because it is bad. The UK isn't worthy of being some kind of implied role model for the US it's constantly argued to be by the Euro crowd, and even that's under the false pretense that the US doesn't even have 2nd Amendment rights guaranteed by law.

If we keep data sources consistent and compare the US and the UK using UN survey data for total crime, the UK isn't five times worse, it isn't four times worse, it's almost three times worse than the US.

Total Crime over Total Population 2002:

UK: 6,523,706/58,789,194 = 0.11096

US: 11,877,218/287,630,000 = 0.04129

http://www.nationmas...me-total-crimes

Even the source Br linked us to admitted the UK was far worse than the US if the way violent crime gets measured is the same, if anyone who posted it actually bothered to read it all the way to the bottom. Parroting predictable statistics that gun homicides are going to be higher in the US while ignoring total crime sans murder isn't a reliable measure to set policy and even that's in the false light as if there is no 2nd Amendment. Any European who doesn't think I have the right to pull out my gun and defend myself and my home really needs to pick up a copy of the rule of law in the US and read it.

Every crime prevented doesn't seem to matter to a gun hating European and those never make it to the statistics we love to tout. Then there's the blind rhetorical denials that guns prevent crimes before they become a part of the statistics, despite the examples of this being presented to people over and over again. Their minds are made up, their ways are best, don't bother them with common sense or examples that prove them wrong.

If you say so. Just thought I'd point out something you might not have been aware of. Not going to get into a debate about it.

I'll make one comment concerning this thread. I think both sides of the gun control argument lack perspective. It seems they wish to simplify things by making it all about guns. That way the 'left' and 'right' can just call each other names; and they can both avoid the more relevant, less comfortable question. That is: why do Americans kill each other is such massive numbers?

[aztek]

That is: why do Americans kill each other is such massive numbers?

about half of gun deaths are suicides. lion share of the rest is gang activity.

i don't know about you, but if someone want to end themselves, i don't mind. if gangs kill each other every day, i don't mind either, the rest of the murders are not that numerous. numbers were posted in many threads.

and it is not only americans, we have garbage come in from all over the world.

[F3SS]

Murder happens and that's hardly an American issue. We have a lot of gangs here and they certainly inflate statistics. Otherwise, we just have a bigger population than most countries and our numbers are obviously higher because of that.

[F3SS]

Alright Aztek, seems we are definitely on the same page.

[aztek]

also ever heard of "american dream"?? something that ppl come to usa for, and many fail at acheaving, and have nothing to loose, and snap.

ever heard of "british, or german or australian dream??? me neither.

Edited June 17, 2013 by aztek

[aztek]

Alright Aztek, seems we are definitely on the same page.

it appears so.

[aztek]

we have about 33,000 of active gangs in usa, about 1,5 million ppl are known active gang members. including 1-2% of us armed forces, all branches

unless any other country comes even close to amount of gangs and gansters, comparing usa to any other country is pointelss, apples and tractors.

Edited June 17, 2013 by aztek

[Arbenol]

about half of gun deaths are suicides. lion share of the rest is gang activity.

i don't know about you, but if someone want to end themselves, i don't mind. if gangs kill each other every day, i don't mind either, the rest of the murders are not that numerous. numbers were posted in many threads.

and it is not only americans, we have garbage come in from all over the world.

I was excluding suicides. If you're happy about gang members killing each other, fine if it doesn't bother you. I'm not convinced that it accounts for the big difference. And when I hear many people stating they need their guns to defend themselves, I doubt that they're convinced also.