Guns save lives thread

[Frank Merton]

I think we only really need to look at what's happening in the jails in the US, the weapon of choice is a stabbing type weapon, the fact no guns exist doesn't stop the violence, I think the knee jerk reaction is to one guy hell bent on loading up like Rambo and killing as many people as possible, which I think we would all agree we don't want to see but its quite a rare event. ?

Can't you think, man? Can't you see the fallacy in what you post or are you so blinded by ideology that you cannot reason? What would happen if guns were in the prisons?

[ciriuslea]

I think you will find this was whats called normal sample variation, ie knife crimes go up and down on a yearly or few yearly basis. The overall trend in homicides after the ban was a gradual decline over the subsequent decade or so. That is a statistically significant trend, the short term blip reported is not and cannot be directly tied to the gun control.

This is called cherry picking, focus on a short term statistically insignificant even to distract from the significant overall trend.

Br Cornelius

The point was made concerning Australia after the gun control was introduced, knife crime rose by 40%

[ciriuslea]

Can't you think, man? Can't you see the fallacy in what you post or are you so blinded by ideology that you cannot reason? What would happen if guns were in the prisons?

The point being made in case you missed it or just prefer being an ass, is it doesn't matter what weapons are in society we still find a way to kill each other

[Guest]

The point was made concerning Australia after the gun control was introduced, knife crime rose by 40%

Small numbers easily vary by 40% with natural variability.

Take for example a rise of 100% in death rates from bowl cancer per 100,000 - a rise from 0.01 to 0.02, the 100% sounds much more dramatic - but it isn't.

Br Cornelius

[ciriuslea]

Small numbers easily vary by 40% with natural variability.

Take for example a rise of 100% in death rates from bowl cancer per 100,000 - a rise from 0.01 to 0.02, the 100% sounds much more dramatic - but it isn't.

Br Cornelius

I didn't fully look into the variables, just that knife crime, or it might have even been knife homicide I can't fully remember now rose by 40% after, sure if there are 10 knife murders a year and it rose by another four, its a small physical number on a population as big as Australias, but its still 40% no matter how you look at it.

[Guest]

I didn't fully look into the variables, just that knife crime, or it might have even been knife homicide I can't fully remember now rose by 40% after, sure if there are 10 knife murders a year and it rose by another four, its a small physical number on a population as big as Australias, but its still 40% no matter how you look at it.

It still statistically constitutes noise.

Br Cornelius

[ciriuslea]

It still statistically constitutes noise.

Br Cornelius

But the fact still remains

[Guest]

But the fact still remains

The important fact is that no causal relationship to banning guns can realistically be established. Its like looking for the reason you land a six on a dice, the only thing you can say with certainty is that if you roll enough dice the mean will approach 3 - which is the meaningful trend.

Stats are all about finding robust trends and indicators and that always requires long datasets to establish whether you have a real trend or a local variation. So many arguments are based on selecting unrepresentative sample's of a larger dataset.

Br Cornelius

Edited June 20, 2013 by Guest

[ciriuslea]

The important fact is that no causal relationship to the banning guns can realistically be established. Its like looking for the reason you land a six on a dice.

Br Cornelius

I personally feel It speaks for itself...gun control is introduced and immediately after knife crime rises by 40%, and overlooking stats like this is irresponsible in not at least considering a relationship with control,

I came across this site, make of it what you will but its an interesting read, http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2974487/posts

[Michelle]

Our government isn't serious about gun control. If they were when they catch a thug for armed robbery with an illegal weapon and 27 violent priors, with and without a gun in just a couple of years, they would put them in jail and throw away the key. Instead, what do they get? They get maybe a year in jail, a one to three year suspended sentence and not even a monitor bracelet to wear around their ankle.

If they start cracking down on the criminals they have taken into custody with illegal weapons charges after shooting someone then I would consider much stricter gun regulations. Until then they should leave the law abiding citizens with legal weapons alone.

[Frank Merton]

It is just common sense that guns are more lethal than knives. This point makes no sense to me. A knife present, the victim has a chance to escape and the perpetrator has a chance to stop and think. Pull a trigger and it's over.

[Guest]

I personally feel It speaks for itself...gun control is introduced and immediately after knife crime rises by 40%, and overlooking stats like this is irresponsible in not at least considering a relationship with control,

I came across this site, make of it what you will but its an interesting read, http://freerepublic....t/2974487/posts

He claims to have derived his stats from;

http://www.aic.gov.a...de/victims.html

But the homicide and sexual assult figure on the official site show clear downward trends where he shows upwards trend.

When the shift from gun to knife homicides is tallied, there is still a clear downward trend in overall homicides.

Something seriously doesn't tally here.

Br Cornelius

Edited June 20, 2013 by Guest

[ciriuslea]

It is just common sense that guns are more lethal than knives. This point makes no sense to me. A knife present, the victim has a chance to escape and the perpetrator has a chance to stop and think. Pull a trigger and it's over.

I don't know where I ever claimed they weren't ?

Ok for those who want to keep using whatever point they want to try to disprove this claim, you can remove guns from society but you will never remove violence, good luck trying btw

As pointed out by Odds his response was he has a room full of weapons, I don't assume to speak for other people so I would 'assume if you wanted to commit a robbery, a murder whatever violent crime you intended to do, you would use whatever weapon was available, banning guns does reduce gun crime but it doesn't stop people being violent as the figures released by the Australian institute of criminology clearly show.

[Guest]

They clearly show a decline in homicides overall - after the ban.

Let it be said - from a much lower level than the USA in the first place.

It seems a culture which accepts the presence of lethal weapons in everyday life, also accepts the inevitability of higher murder rates.

Br Cornelius

Edited June 20, 2013 by Guest

[Frank Merton]

Don't let the pursuit of the perfect drive out the pursuit of the good. We would be much better off in a world without guns, even though of course other forms of violence would still take place.

[aztek]

. Pull a trigger and it's over.

that is the idea, you come with a knife at me, or brake into my house, i'l pull a trigger and it is all over for you.

should i give up my guns, and make it easyer for you to assult me and\or rob my house??? i don't think so.

and if you are not comming at me with a knife\gun\bat..etc, or braking into ,my house, you have no reasonsto fear my guns

Edited June 20, 2013 by aztek

[ciriuslea]

He claims to have derived his stats from;

http://www.aic.gov.a...de/victims.html

But the homicide and sexual assult figure on the official site show clear downward trends where he shows upwards trend.

When the shift from gun to knife homicides is tallied, there is still a clear downward trend in overall homicides.

Something seriously doesn't tally here.

Br Cornelius

The link with the graph you posted doesn't differentiate in how the homicide was committed, they can include a variety of methods, but it does still show a downward trend I do concede, the link I posted sort to address separately differences in robbery, rape, assault etc etc since the ban,

but It clearly shows in the top graph the murder rate as a decline, maybe you missed it

[ciriuslea]

Pull a trigger and it's over.

That's not quite true, lots of people survive gun shots,

[Yamato]

Don't let the pursuit of the perfect drive out the pursuit of the good. We would be much better off in a world without guns, even though of course other forms of violence would still take place.

Then stop ignoring government and solely focusing on individual Americans protected by law. Clueless disregard for the rule of law once again.

[Sweetpumper]

This isn't a debate thread.

[Yamato]

Pull a trigger and it's over.

Whoa there Captain Hollywood! 250,000 rounds fired per enemy killed in Iraq/Afghanistan.

Then I think of the jungles of Vietnam where you can't even see your enemy. Again, to believe this rhetoric is coming out of someone who lives in Vietnam is just impossible.

[Michelle]

That's not quite true, lots of people survive gun shots,

We've got gangbangers in town shooting each other two or three times a week and they rarely die. One was shot three times in the head last week and was listed in stable condition the next day.

[ciriuslea]

We've got gangbangers in town shooting each other two or three times a week and they rarely die. One was shot three times in the head last week and was listed in stable condition the next day.

We had two terrorists butcher a soldier to death in broad daylight in the middle of the street only a few weeks ago in the UK, they were shot by the police and survived to be stable enough to face trial

[Michelle]

We had two terrorists butcher a soldier to death in broad daylight in the middle of the street only a few weeks ago in the UK, they were shot by the police and survived to be stable enough to face trial

The Boston bomber was shot at with dozens of rounds, was hit at least once in the neck and he doing all right now. In reality most people who are shot make a full recovery.

The gangbangers we suffer with love their battle scars.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Michelle

[Beckys_Mom]

JR was shot too, and he still ran Ewing Oil lol