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F3SS

Guns save lives thread

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mbrn30000

White? Cruz is Cuban, at least on his father's side. But don't let that knock you off of your soapbox.

you do understand that Cuban is a nationality and is not a race. Cubans can be white or black or indian or mixed. I know they all look alike to you.

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F3SS

The truth about America's favorite gun myths

http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/the-truth-about-americas-favorite-gun-myths/

The whole thing is riddled with source links but I don't have the time for it all. Unfortunately, the one link I tried in myth #7 was broken which sucks because that's a big contention. Anyway, check it...

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mbrn30000

the link worked. the loophole is said to not exist. but it appears that the issue is infrequent private sales vs being in the business to sale guns. so a private sale by a person who only sales guns occasionally would be exempt from federal law, but someone who frequently sales guns no matter where would not. well that is clear as mud. how many are frequent?

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DieChecker

WHat am I thinking? I am thinking guns cause more suicides and accidental shooting than they save lives. The owner of a gun will more likely die from his own gun intentionally or by accident than ever need it for self defense. Factor in that they also are more likely to be stolen, used in a domestic shooting or homicide, or to kill someone intentionally who was not a real threat, Guns are not so great to have around. But if gun nuts want them, odds are the more likely events will occur and we do need less nuts in the world. So when you ask do guns saves lives, on the whole they do not.

If anyone wants to ban me for pointing out the facts, then let them do it.

What you stated (happily?) as the result of gun ownership is not a fact. It appeared to be a crude, infantile effort at humor.

So where did you get this opinion? If it is a fact, then you will have no trouble finding a website that backs you up.

So.... You'd LIKE to see the 100 Million people who own guns, accidentally kill themselves? So that tens of thousands don't have to die from being shot by criminals. That is good reasoning there......

Edited by DieChecker

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mbrn30000

What you stated (happily?) as the result of gun ownership is not a fact. It appeared to be a crude, infantile effort at humor.

So where did you get this opinion? If it is a fact, then you will have no trouble finding a website that backs you up.

So.... You'd LIKE to see the 100 Million people who own guns, accidentally kill themselves? So that tens of thousands don't have to die from being shot by criminals. That is good reasoning there......

http://smartgunlaws....ies-statistics/

the number of lives guns save are all bs. nobody really knows, but it seems I hardly see a story about someone saving lives with their heat. and if there were tons of them, you people would be posting.

http://www.cdc.gov/n...ats/suicide.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/n...tats/injury.htm

http://smartgunlaws....rms-statistics/

http://www.vpc.org/f...ht/domviofs.htm

http://mediamatters....deadlier/198942

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_9747969 suicides

http://www.hsph.harv...he-hidden-toll/

of course this one should interest you more

Edited by mbrn30000
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Michelle

you do understand that Cuban is a nationality and is not a race. Cubans can be white or black or indian or mixed. I know they all look alike to you.

Yes, except Ted Cruz's father happens to be Latino or Hispanic, whichever you prefer.

Latino (/læˈtinoʊ/ or /ləˈtinoʊ/)[1] is a cultural heritage used to refer to people with cultural ties to Latin America and people of nationalities within the bounds of Latin America, in contrast to Hispanic which is a demonym that includes Iberians and other speakers of the Spanish language as well as Latinos.[2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11] The term Latino is used to refer to males only or a combination of males and females in a group, whereas the term Latina is used to refer to females only.

The US Government's OMB has defined Hispanic or Latino people as being those who "trace their origin or descent to Mexico, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Central and South America, and other Spanish cultures."[12] The United States Census uses the ethnonym Hispanic or Latino to refer to "a person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race."[13] The Census Bureau also explains that "[o]rigin can be viewed as the heritage, nationality group, lineage, or country of birth of the person or the person’s ancestors before their arrival in the United States. People who identify their origin as Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish may be of any race."[14] Hence the US Census and the OMB are using the terms differently. The US Census and the OMB use the terms in an interchangeable manner, where both terms are synonyms. The AP Stylebook‍ '​s recommended usage of Latino in Latin America includes not only persons of Spanish-speaking ancestry, but also more generally includes persons "from -- or whose ancestors were from -- . . . Latin America, including Brazilians."[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latino_(demonym)

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DieChecker

Yes, yes... We've all seen that a thousand times...

the number of lives guns save are all bs. nobody really knows, but it seems I hardly see a story about someone saving lives with their heat. and if there were tons of them, you people would be posting.

So you call BS, but then in the next sentence admit that no one knows. Not every story makes the news. The number of 2.5 million came about from digesting estimates of police forces nationwide, and security experts, and FBI reports, I believe.

So what number do you believe that should be?

Suicide is a mental health issue, not a gun issue.

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F3SS

the number of lives guns save are all bs. nobody really knows, but it seems I hardly see a story about someone saving lives with their heat. and if there were tons of them, you people would be posting.

There have been dozens and dozens, if not hundreds, of links and stories posted throughout this thread.

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mbrn30000

There have been dozens and dozens, if not hundreds, of links and stories posted throughout this thread.

dozens? I have maybe seen dozens in 30 years. it is pretty rare. you are more likely to be killed or injured by your own gun than ever using it for self defense.

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mbrn30000

Yes, yes... We've all seen that a thousand times...

So you call BS, but then in the next sentence admit that no one knows. Not every story makes the news. The number of 2.5 million came about from digesting estimates of police forces nationwide, and security experts, and FBI reports, I believe.

So what number do you believe that should be?

Suicide is a mental health issue, not a gun issue.

the 2.5 million came from a gun advocate survey that ask about 1200 people have they ever used their gun for protection in the last 5 years. nothing about did you have to pull it or shoot it or was your life in danger. some people think they use their gun for safety every time they leave then house. if we had over 2.5 million cases of self defense with a fire arm even in one decade, we would be reading about 700 cases a day. that is utter nonsense. its made up. it does happen, but the question is... do guns save lives...and in the net they cost lives. I am not advocating gun confiscation, I am advocating truth in regulation and common sense. not paranoid stupid ramblings and talk of government confiscation, and silliness. the slander of Obama of these 6 years is just bs. based on bigotry and manipulation of stupid sheep with nonsense. the right wing is one big puppet. they are scared with bumper stickers and strawpeople by wealthy owners of the GOP. Fear is what is motivating the GOP base because all you have to do is say Obama and Hillary wants your guns, wants force you to have gay sex, wants to take your bible, wants to fund islam, blah blah blah and they are so gullible they vote against their own economic interest. we will never have reasonable government until we have reasonable citizens. the right wing are full of wackos and they have this imaginary need for guns on their hip like John Wayne....but the real power of the GOP is laughing their butts off at those idiots who vote for them.

Edited by mbrn30000

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F3SS

dozens? I have maybe seen dozens in 30 years. it is pretty rare. you are more likely to be killed or injured by your own gun than ever using it for self defense.

What you have personally seen is irrelevant. There are plenty of links throughout this thread. I know it's long but you can skim through and find them. And they're all fairly recent in years.

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mbrn30000

ok food for thought:

The truth is the second amendment is poorly written for the 21rst Century but it will not be fixed in my life time if ever. The truth is also most weapons in the USA originated from a legal source, either manufactured or imported. We don't really have a gun smuggling problem, Now mexico has a gun smuggling problem from the USA. We say they are our drug problem and we their gun problem. In reality our drug addictions feed their drug problem and our gun addiction feeds their gun problem. But if just about all guns start their life legally in the USA, then it stands to reason, if you banned all legal gun ownership eventually you will impact the illegal gun ownership. Criminals get guns either by stealing them or buying them from thieves. Now some criminals buy guns themselves because they have not committed a crime yet (or been caught) or they turn into criminals some time after the purchase. So if you accept criminals directly or indirectly get their guns from a legal source, then you have to accept that doing away with legal sources will dry up their supply. so the argument, criminals will find ways to find guns, is not really as good an argument as they think. No legal market, it get's not only harder but much more expensive to get a gun. Try and buy one in Mexico. A 9 mm that cost a few hundred here, can be resold in mexico for a few thousand. juan would have to pick a lot of tomatoes if he wanted to buy a gun in mexico.

Again this is fantasy, and will never happen. but it is food for thought. guns really hurt us more in the modern USA than help us. Of course the wackos keep waiting for the apocalypse or the government new world order or other such nonsense. So they want their guns to fight the US army I guess.

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preacherman76

Again this is fantasy, and will never happen. but it is food for thought. guns really hurt us more in the modern USA than help us. Of course the wackos keep waiting for the apocalypse or the government new world order or other such nonsense. So they want their guns to fight the US army I guess.

The stats prove that to be just flat out wrong. In fact it isn't even close according to the FBI.

Also look up fast and furious. Then ask yourself why Mexico has a drug cartel gun problem.

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mbrn30000

The stats prove that to be just flat out wrong. In fact it isn't even close according to the FBI.

Also look up fast and furious. Then ask yourself why Mexico has a drug cartel gun problem.

LOL fast and furious proves the point. many if not most of the guns in mexico came from legal dealers in the USA. And most of the money going to drug cartels comes from addicts in the US and Europe. as mexico likes to say, so far from God so close to the United States. Edited by mbrn30000

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preacherman76

LOL fast and furious proves the point. many if not most of the guns in mexico came from legal dealers in the USA. And most of the money going to drug cartels comes from addicts in the US and Europe. as mexico likes to say, so far from God so close to the United States.

They didn't come from legal gun dealers. They came from our government, who illegally handes them to the cartels. In order to blame the second amendment no less. Not one person arrested or even fired over it

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mbrn30000

They didn't come from legal gun dealers. They came from our government, who illegally handes them to the cartels. In order to blame the second amendment no less. Not one person arrested or even fired over it

blah blah blah. you people are just anti government. you see everything through the same prism. you live in fear of dark forces and grandiose ideas that you are super patriots living the way the founders wanted us to. problem is you are delusional. the founders believed in government. in fact, they created two governments. The first one was too weak and they had to form an even stronger federal government. if you were made king for a day, or any of you were, and named every single leader, mayors, congress, president, everyone, you would wake up the next day not trusting them and claiming they are working against you. you people just don't like rules for yourselves but are happy to impose rules on others. you live in an antigovernment delusion. you will never be happy nor a good patriot. just like the people who talk about succession in Texas and ALaska. All a bunch of malcontents who never get along with anyone. If they ever got their wish a week or two later they would be demanding the new government resign. it will never end until you people breath your last breaths or until you find meds they will stop your delusions. you wouldn't be happy if we could reanimate Thomas Jefferson or Washington, but more importantly they would most likely see you exactly as you are..crazy as it gets.

Edited by mbrn30000

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aztek

lol, idiots strike again.

it was unknown to them, that 99% of cartels guns come from army desertters, that take them with when they desert army, only mexican army has hundred of thousands of deserters, and many are joining cartels, with their guns. cartels do not need guns from usa, they have plenty of disposable soldiers with guns join them on their own will.

Mexican army's soldiers fleeing for drug cartels

MEXICO CITY — The most ruthless gang of drug-cartel hit men in Mexico are deserters from the army's elite. But the Zetas, as the ex-soldiers are known, may not be the only troops who abandoned their posts to work for the cartels.

In the eight years since the Zetas were organized, more than 120,000 Mexican soldiers have deserted the army, according to the government's records. Yet the country's defense officials have made little effort to track their whereabouts, security experts said, creating a potential pool of military-trained killers for the drug-trafficking gangs wreaking havoc in the country.

"Even if just 5 percent of those join the cartels, that's an army of hit men," said Georgina Sanchez, an independent security analyst in Mexico City.

High desertion rates within Mexico's armed forces, usually blamed on poor salaries and harsh living conditions, are nothing new. Until receiving a raise this year, rank-and-file soldiers made $330 a month, less than many police officers.

Edited by aztek

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mbrn30000

lol, idiots strike again.

it was unknown to them, that 99% of cartels guns come from army desertters, that take them with when they desert army, only mexican army has hundred of thousands of deserters, and many are joining cartels, with their guns. cartels do not need guns from usa, they have plenty of disposable soldiers with guns join them on their own will.

Mexican army's soldiers fleeing for drug cartels

MEXICO CITY — The most ruthless gang of drug-cartel hit men in Mexico are deserters from the army's elite. But the Zetas, as the ex-soldiers are known, may not be the only troops who abandoned their posts to work for the cartels.

In the eight years since the Zetas were organized, more than 120,000 Mexican soldiers have deserted the army, according to the government's records. Yet the country's defense officials have made little effort to track their whereabouts, security experts said, creating a potential pool of military-trained killers for the drug-trafficking gangs wreaking havoc in the country.

"Even if just 5 percent of those join the cartels, that's an army of hit men," said Georgina Sanchez, an independent security analyst in Mexico City.

High desertion rates within Mexico's armed forces, usually blamed on poor salaries and harsh living conditions, are nothing new. Until receiving a raise this year, rank-and-file soldiers made $330 a month, less than many police officers.

"According to [u.S.] Justice Department figures, 94,000 weapons were recovered from Mexican drug cartels in the five years between 2006 and 2011, of which 64,000 -- 70 percent -- come from the United States."[citation needed] Once guns are obtained at gunshops in the United States, they are then smuggled into Mexico across the US-Mexico border.[3][4] In other cases the guns are obtained through Guatemalan borders[5] or stolen from the police or military.[6] Consequently, black market firearms are widely available. Many

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_of_firearms_into_Mexico

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aztek

Mexico's Gun Supply and the 90 Percent Myth

This means that the 87 percent figure relates to the number of weapons submitted by the Mexican government to the ATF that could be successfully traced and not from the total number of weapons seized by Mexican authorities or even from the total number of weapons submitted to the ATF for tracing. In fact, the 3,480 guns positively traced to the United States equals less than 12 percent of the total arms seized in Mexico in 2008 and less than 48 percent of all those submitted by the Mexican government to the ATF for tracing. This means that almost 90 percent of the guns seized in Mexico in 2008 were not traced back to the United States.

In recent years the cartels, especially their enforcer groups such as Los Zetas, Gente Nueva and La Linea, have been increasingly using military weaponry instead of sporting arms. A close examination of the arms seized from the enforcer groups and their training camps clearly demonstrates this trend toward military ordnance, including many weapons not readily available in the United States. Some of these seizures have included M60 machine guns and hundreds of 40 mm grenades obtained from the military arsenals of countries like Guatemala.

The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

So, if not from the U.S., where do they come from? There are a variety of sources:

-- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.

-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.

Edited by aztek

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mbrn30000

Mexico's Gun Supply and the 90 Percent Myth

This means that the 87 percent figure relates to the number of weapons submitted by the Mexican government to the ATF that could be successfully traced and not from the total number of weapons seized by Mexican authorities or even from the total number of weapons submitted to the ATF for tracing. In fact, the 3,480 guns positively traced to the United States equals less than 12 percent of the total arms seized in Mexico in 2008 and less than 48 percent of all those submitted by the Mexican government to the ATF for tracing. This means that almost 90 percent of the guns seized in Mexico in 2008 were not traced back to the United States.

In recent years the cartels, especially their enforcer groups such as Los Zetas, Gente Nueva and La Linea, have been increasingly using military weaponry instead of sporting arms. A close examination of the arms seized from the enforcer groups and their training camps clearly demonstrates this trend toward military ordnance, including many weapons not readily available in the United States. Some of these seizures have included M60 machine guns and hundreds of 40 mm grenades obtained from the military arsenals of countries like Guatemala.

The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

So, if not from the U.S., where do they come from? There are a variety of sources:

-- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.

-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.

we can play this game all day long. guns from the usa are flowing into mexico and they are coming from legal sources in the USA. http://www.eldailypost.com/news/2015/07/legal-u-s-gun-runners-are-arming-mexicos-cartels/

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/26/us/mexico-crime-guns/

and pro gun activists can distort stats but it does not change what is happening.

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Saru

Due to this thread's size slowing down page load times it is now being archived and a continuation topic can be found here:

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=287178

Closed.

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