Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
F3SS

Guns save lives thread

2,946 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

questionmark

I was excluding suicides. If you're happy about gang members killing each other, fine if it doesn't bother you. I'm not convinced that it accounts for the big difference. And when I hear many people stating they need their guns to defend themselves, I doubt that they're convinced also.

Which we can surely attribute to the fact that the crime rate in the US is lower than in Britain, by the way...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kowalski

we have about 33,000 of active gangs in usa, about 1,5 million ppl are known active gang members. including 1-2% of us armed forces, all branches

unless any other country comes even close to amount of gangs and gansters, comparing usa to any other country is pointelss, apples and tractors.

I think a lot of those gangs have ties to illegal immigration, also...

Link: http://www.usillegal...tion_gangs.html

As can be seen from the aforementioned studies and references, many illegal aliens are not your casual immigration violating, ID theft committing, law breaker. Many are recidivists – a.k.a. career criminals, like Juan Leonardo Quintero, who was deported after being convicted of indecency with a child, but who later came back and then just recently killed a Houston cop in cold blood, leaving a widow and five now fatherless children.

Many of the brutal crimes referenced in the two previous sections are gang related with the growing Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13) gang being notoriously brutal in carrying out its criminal activities. How much is unknown because NOBODY IS TRACKING IT.

If you do not yet have any of the violent illegal alien gangs in your area, you might want to take note of US Undocumented Settling in New Areas where it noted that illegal aliens are moving away from traditional illegal immigrant enclaves and settling in mass in newer areas and a fairly recent Washington Times article, Gang follows illegal aliens, that noted:

"The violent MS-13 - or Mara Salvatrucha - street gang is following the migratory routes of illegal aliens across the country, FBI officials say, calling the Salvadoran gang the new American mafia.

MS-13, has a significant presence in the Washington area, and other gangs are spreading into small towns and suburbs by following illegal aliens seeking work in places such as Providence, R.I., and the Carolinas, FBI task force director Robert Clifford said. "The migrant moves and the gang follows," said Mr. Clifford, director of the agency's MS-13 Na
tional Gang Task Force

Before the agency’s publication was made public a national newspaperrevealed some of its findings. It says that up to 80% of crime in the U.S. is committed by gangs and that gang membership in this country has grown to 1 million, an increase of 200,000 in the last few years.

Additionally, gangs are the “primary retail-level distributors of most illicit drugs” in the U.S. and several are sophisticated enough to compete with major Mexican drug-trafficking cartels. Most of the country’s state and local enforcement agencies have reported gang activity in their jurisdiction and the problem will only get worse, according to the FBI.

In fact, a high-ranking FBI director said gangs have followed the migration paths of illegal alien laborers to avoid big-city police departments that have cracked down on their activities. An example is the notoriously violent Salvadoran gang known as Mara Salvatrucha or MS-13, which has spread throughout the U.S.—to at least 42 states—and continues expanding.

In 2008 alone MS-13 members, all illegal immigrants with previous criminal records, committed atrocious crimes that received ample media coverage. In San Francisco an MS-13 gang banger murdered a father and son with an assault weapon because their car blocked his from making a turn. In Los Angeles an MS-13 member just released from prison murdered a high school football star as the teen jock walked home from the mall. In Maryland a 14-year-old honors high school student was shot to death on a crowded public bus by a Salvadoran illegal alien who proudly revealed he belonged to the MS-13.

Taken from http://www.judicialw...most-u-s-crime/

Just thought I'd point it out....

Edited by Kowalski
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yamato

Why shouldn't women, who are physically weaker than men, be allowed to have guns to defend themselves from men? Oh because of the UK, I almost forgot. :wacko:

Edited by Yamato
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kowalski

Why shouldn't women, who are physically weaker than men, not be allowed to have guns to defend themselves from men? Oh because of the UK, I almost forgot. :wacko:

That's why rapes in the UK are going up....

Link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-18200190

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yamato

That's why rapes in the UK are going up....

Link: http://www.bbc.co.uk...london-18200190

Now I see what all the fuss is about! British people want our women to be raped as much as their women! :P

Here I thought they were still secretly sore about how American guns disposed of their guns from American soil. After they stopped shooting and winning and their empire eventually went down the toilet, it follows that they'd get so crabby about shooting.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
F3SS

To put an end to the discussion about who and when and where: here is the official CIA statistics USA VS Britain:

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/United-Kingdom/United-States/Crime

Hmmm... Something is wrong with this stat

Drug offences 183,419 per 100,000 people 560.1 per 100,000 people

Ranked 2nd. 326 times more than United States Ranked 4th.

Otherwise, probably not the be all end all stat link. More stats should've been per/100,00 or by percentage. Raw numbers aren't the best when one population is 5 times larger than the other.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
questionmark

Hmmm... Something is wrong with this stat

Drug offences 183,419 per 100,000 people 560.1 per 100,000 people

Ranked 2nd. 326 times more than United States Ranked 4th.

Otherwise, probably not the be all end all stat link. More stats should've been per/100,00 or by percentage. Raw numbers aren't the best when one population is 5 times larger than the other.

Raw numbers can be calculated, USA 316,064,000 inhabitants (give or take 1000), Britain 63,182,000. So roughly everywhere where the is not 5 times worse the US wins.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
F3SS

Raw numbers can be calculated, USA 316,064,000 inhabitants (give or take 1000), Britain 63,182,000. So roughly everywhere where the is not 5 times worse the US wins.

I know they can be calculated but c'mon. If you're trying to end an argument here it needs to be simpler or you get into bad math and raw number reactions. Plus the link say there are almost two times more drug abusers than there are people in the UK so still not the best link. C'mon, admit it.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
questionmark

I know they can be calculated but c'mon. If you're trying to end an argument here it needs to be simpler or you get into bad math and raw number reactions. Plus the link say there are almost two times more drug abusers than there are people in the UK so still not the best link. C'mon, admit it.

That has something to do with how statistics are taken, in Britain you get arrested for using drugs and you admit to five times that goes as 5 drug offenses into the books. In the US no matter how many times you confess to that ends up as one offense.

In Britain a guy gets rough on a girl after a binge drinking party it goes into the books as sexual assault, in the USA as disorderly conduct.

In Britain the situation after binge drinking evolves into a fight and it goes into the books as assault. In the US as disorderly conduct.

And so on, and so on, and so on.

The real number is at the end: how many of the population were victims of a crime, and there we have that Britain has 26.4% (without guns) and the US 21.1% (with guns). So at the end we conclude: by those numbers it is irrelevant whether you have a gun or not. In both places you have roughly a 1 in 5 chance to be a crime victim.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
F3SS

That has something to do with how statistics are taken, in Britain you get arrested for using drugs and you admit to five times that goes as 5 drug offenses into the books. In the US no matter how many times you confess to that ends up as one offense.

In Britain a guy gets rough on a girl after a binge drinking party it goes into the books as sexual assault, in the USA as disorderly conduct.

In Britain the situation after binge drinking evolves into a fight and it goes into the books as assault. In the US as disorderly conduct.

And so on, and so on, and so on.

The real number is at the end: how many of the population were victims of a crime, and there we have that Britain has 26.4% (without guns) and the US 21.1% (with guns). So at the end we conclude: by those numbers it is irrelevant whether you have a gun or not. In both places you have roughly a 1 in 5 chance to be a crime victim.

Got it. That's a stupid system though, the drug offenses. It only makes Brittain look worse than it needs to when seeing numbers like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
third_eye

what's that saying they often use ?

" the numbers they never lie "

?

:yes::o:no:

~

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Br Cornelius

Except you have to demonstrate that the way the stats are collected is different between what was actually on the table in order to be relevant to my input to the discussion. The UK looks bad because it is bad. The UK isn't worthy of being some kind of implied role model for the US it's constantly argued to be by the Euro crowd, and even that's under the false pretense that the US doesn't even have 2nd Amendment rights guaranteed by law.

If we keep data sources consistent and compare the US and the UK using UN survey data for total crime, the UK isn't five times worse, it isn't four times worse, it's almost three times worse than the US.

Total Crime over Total Population 2002:

UK: 6,523,706/58,789,194 = 0.11096

US: 11,877,218/287,630,000 = 0.04129

http://www.nationmas...me-total-crimes

Even the source Br linked us to admitted the UK was far worse than the US if the way violent crime gets measured is the same, if anyone who posted it actually bothered to read it all the way to the bottom. Parroting predictable statistics that gun homicides are going to be higher in the US while ignoring total crime sans murder isn't a reliable measure to set policy and even that's in the false light as if there is no 2nd Amendment. Any European who doesn't think I have the right to pull out my gun and defend myself and my home really needs to pick up a copy of the rule of law in the US and read it.

Every crime prevented doesn't seem to matter to a gun hating European and those never make it to the statistics we love to tout. Then there's the blind rhetorical denials that guns prevent crimes before they become a part of the statistics, despite the examples of this being presented to people over and over again. Their minds are made up, their ways are best, don't bother them with common sense or examples that prove them wrong.

In the end the crime stats are roughly the same between the UK and America in all but the all important homicide figure which is five times higher in the USA.

Its really that simple and not a gun hating issue - its a simple look at your chances of ending up dead at the end of a gun, and in America its much more likely. Simple.

Br Cornelius

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Br Cornelius

Murder happens and that's hardly an American issue. We have a lot of gangs here and they certainly inflate statistics. Otherwise, we just have a bigger population than most countries and our numbers are obviously higher because of that.

Do you imagine that Europe doesn't have gangs and that most of the crime is between competing gangs. It still leaves America substantially more dangerous.

Br Cornelius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Br Cornelius

Now I see what all the fuss is about! British people want our women to be raped as much as their women! :P

Here I thought they were still secretly sore about how American guns disposed of their guns from American soil. After they stopped shooting and winning and their empire eventually went down the toilet, it follows that they'd get so crabby about shooting.

Its called progress, moving on from settling arguments on the street with guns. You should think about that. Civilization is about feeling secure in your society, not about packing heat to defend yourself.

Lets face it, we both know what this is really about for you, no lousy government agent is going to take you alive - you'll kill them all first :w00t:

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yamato

In the end the crime stats are roughly the same between the UK and America in all but the all important homicide figure which is five times higher in the USA.

Its really that simple and not a gun hating issue - its a simple look at your chances of ending up dead at the end of a gun, and in America its much more likely. Simple.

Br Cornelius

No it's not as simple as my chances of ending up dead at the end of a gun, it's also the chances of a criminal.

If homicides were what you really cared about, there are so many other countries in the world to complain about on this forum. You don't really care about that, you're just engaged in politics. For nearly half of households having guns, the US is nowhere near the global average homicide rate.

4.8/1.2 = 4

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yamato

Its called progress, moving on from settling arguments on the street with guns. You should think about that. Civilization is about feeling secure in your society, not about packing heat to defend yourself.

Lets face it, we both know what this is really about for you, no lousy government agent is going to take you alive - you'll kill them all first :w00t:

Br Cornelius

Who told you that government agents and settling arguments in the street with guns are mutually exclusive? The former is the greatest practitioner of the latter, showing your contradiction in thinking.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
F3SS

Do you imagine that Europe doesn't have gangs and that most of the crime is between competing gangs. It still leaves America substantially more dangerous.

Br Cornelius

I imagine there are. I never suggested otherwise. You like to crowbar an argument out of people.

Its called progress, moving on from settling arguments on the street with guns. You should think about that. Civilization is about feeling secure in your society, not about packing heat to defend yourself.

Lets face it, we both know what this is really about for you, no lousy government agent is going to take you alive - you'll kill them all first :w00t:

Br Cornelius

Yea, it happens here with 'regular' folk the same as it does anywhere else. But the people you should be preaching to are the gangsters and all those who don't give a f about civility. Me and Yamato I imagine are generally reasonable people who will never seek violence but like to know that we can be prepared if the unreasonable and violent seek US because even in the event of an all out ban the violent animals, and yes I mean animals, aren't going to care to live in progressiveville. All they care about is turf and hustling.

I'll bet you think I'm locked and loaded right now. I'm American. I'm a barbarian with bullets aren't I?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DieChecker

My point is, you cannot pat yourself on the back about how many times guns have saved lives without putting that fact into the context of how many more Americans have died as a consequence of your countries fetish for guns. Its dishonest at best.

The highest deaths by gun rate (and one of the highest homicide rates in general) in the developed world is not a statistic which is going to go away :tu:

You don't seem to get that Americans are just really aggressive violent people. We volinteer in the hundreds of thousands to shot at people in the military. The US has been in a war footing for what... 12 years now.... And yet we still see hundreds of thousands of people still joining the military. We are dangerous people. We seek out people in the world to confront.

Simply taking away guns is not going to stop violence in the US.

Guns do save people, or at least drive off criminals.

Statistics are that probably there is 100+ potentially violent crimes prevented for every gun homicide. Something like 10,000+ for every accidental death.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather 10,000 people used their gun to prevent violence against themselves, then to have that one more accidental death avoided.

The genie is well and truly out of the bottle, people like to kill each other and every other species on the planet.

Fact is if we didn't have guns we would have other weapons, guns are just one link in the long chain of weapons, they're the most effective means of killing a person which is why they're so popular. even used for defence the issue is to disable quick and effectively..you need guns in society because you have guns in society, the irony in that is incredible

The only trouble with American gun use is that guns are more deadly then other forms of defense and thus get a really bad reputation. But also Americans are probably better shots, and more willing to defend their property and family. I suppose someone in a gun-less society would simply leap out a window and save themselves and simply hope their family is not stabbed to death. It is the "civilized" thing to do.

Because burglers always have murderous intent, and always come armed.

Burgleries happen but they almost never end in assult on the home owner.

And you would be willing to risk your life in order to preserve the life of someone who cares not a dime, or a pence about you?

This is the same thinking that let Hitler walk into Poland. "Let's not see anyone killed"... "Maybe he'll stop with Poland..."

Armed intruders are exceptionally rare in countries with gun controls.

See how stupid arguing that guns save lives looks now ? Criminals with guns kill, but countries without a gun culture do not have a whole class of armed criminals.

And yet the Culture already exists. What do you propose to end said culture in criminals? Without prevention of criminals owning guns, there is no way to ethically take guns from the general populous.

Let it be said that this is far from a Europe vs America argument. Nearly half of American households (47%) do not own guns and many of those would like to see tighter gun control for their safety.

That is personal opinon.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wickian

To put an end to the discussion about who and when and where: here is the official CIA statistics USA VS Britain:

http://www.nationmas...ed-States/Crime

The only murder statistics I saw on that page where those by firearms and those youths. What about all the murders done without guns or by adults? I checked the "Murders per capita" page of that website and the U.S. wasn't even listed in the top 37.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
third_eye

when there are guns around .... why get blood on the hands ? Or suits ... or sneakers ... or gloves ... or Jeans ...

~

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Shiloh17

Here's my situation. I'm not in Australia, England, or any European country or elsewhere that has gun control. I'm in the United States. I'm for tighter

gun control. The NRA is just plain stupid in a lot of its arguments. Nothing wrong with common sense gun control. But the fact is the United States has

no restrictions on gun ownership except for certain types of weapons, and even in those instances, you can aquire a license for a machine gun or

silencer etc..

Violent crime by guns is a fact of life over here, and I can't do anything about it, except arm myself and hope I never have to use it. Los Angeles has

over 45,000 gang bangers in that city alone.

Gun ownership isn't a fetish as BR Cornelius put it, at least not to me. It's a balance of life and death, sad but true.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yamato

And yet the Culture already exists. What do you propose to end said culture in criminals? Without prevention of criminals owning guns, there is no way to ethically take guns from the general populous.

He has no respect for a culture with rights to private property, period. Why would he ever make an exception for guns? Guns are the domain of government according to him. Draft thyself into the collective and conform.

Guns are already banned from criminals' hands, like that works. Then he'd have to argue that there are too many guns, so if he's true to his position he'd have to support putting them in a great pile and lighting the biggest bonfire of wood and metal ever seen while the rights of people burn and the monopoly of government reigns.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Br Cornelius

He has no respect for a culture with rights to private property, period. Why would he ever make an exception for guns? Guns are the domain of government according to him. Draft thyself into the collective and conform.

Guns are already banned from criminals' hands, like that works. Then he'd have to argue that there are too many guns, so if he's true to his position he'd have to support putting them in a great pile and lighting the biggest bonfire of wood and metal ever seen while the rights of people burn and the monopoly of government reigns.

Guns are freely avilable to citizens - criminals or not - it is not illegal for criminals to own guns in America, it is only illegal for them to use them to commit crime. Again when you can make such a basic mistake about the reality on the ground I have little faith in your prescriptions.

Br Cornelius

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Frank Merton

In a society like the States, criminals will have guns. To effectively keep them away from criminals requires removing the sources, which tends to be other gun owners, so it is necessary to generally ban them. Then they can be permitted is special situations (ranchers, security people, law enforcement, military) but even in these situations they must be managed and controlled.

The question then becomes whether or not a society wants to do that or not. The benefit is a much safer world to live in. The arguments that guns provide safety are all lies -- manipulations of statistics for propaganda purposes. The plain fact is that societies where guns are rare and heavily regulated are much safer places to live.

What is the offsetting loss? The argument seems to be that regulating guns is a limitation of freedom, and by some here a restriction on their ability to overthrow a government they don't approve of. Sheesh.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.