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Guns save lives thread


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We do, there are many channels for this. Family, friends, neighbors, therapists, doctors, employers, parishioners, barbers, lawyers, anyone. You want Hillary Clinton to use federal force and do something more. Her hands have blood all over them, which is why it's so insidious that Americans appeal straight to centralized power to address so many of the crybaby problems. Unfortunately "the crazies" are in govt too so it's illogical to appeal to mass-murderers to control mass-murderers. When solutions aren't logical they aren't going to be effective either.

Stop ignoring what your government does overseas Libs. Your true nature was revealed when Barack Obama became President and your infamous antiwar movement disappeared. You love mass murder when it's "over there". If your govt "over here" was doing to you what it does to others "over there" maybe then you'd wake up. Those magic lines drawn by govt and distance allow you not to care. Over here, over there, it's the same thing.

where did I mention federal law at all? And I am real tired of the paranoid ramblings,. Obama is almost gone from office, and you still got your guns and your stupid bible and the UN is not rolling down the street. Good imaginary god. I am so sick of this crap in this country,. You people are fricken nuts.

Edited by mbrn30000
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I do not own a gun and I do not have a problem with people owning them. I want a gun, I just don't want the responsibility that goes with owning one.

With that said, why not merely ban the manufacture, sale, and import of ammunition? Americans can buy all the guns they want - just won't have any bullets. :w00t:

The violence in American goes a lot deeper and it's more complicated than people think. In my opinion, the problem stems from a multitude of variables all intertwined and mixed in a psychotic soup.

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But the crazies, are getting guns from legal sources, and until they commit a crime under the current law then they can do so. If we allowed civil procedures for the confiscating of guns from people who are tumbling over the edge, such as making social media threats, or threatening loved ones, or co workers, then we might stop some of this.

Making social media threats, or threatening loved ones, or co workers is not an indication of tumbling over the edge. It's just an indication of being p***ed off. If it were then we'd all be in jail, especially all those on this forum. You can't stop anyone from going over the edge until they actually have and usually it's too late to have a third party take action. From time to time, you might get lucky. But the only way to stop it is to arm the prospective targets. Leadership at the highest levels would also go a long way to prevent this. This wouldn't be happening under any other President in the past. Past Presidents believed in American Exceptionalism and espoused as such but our birthright has been stolen and we have no moral foundation. The troubled have nothing to stand on. A good leader can bring the people back from the brink to a firm foundation but it ain't going to happen anytime soon.

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I was also born in the 60's. My dad started taking me target practicing and teaching me firearm safety from the age of six. Very few women I know my age have never fired a weapon. I don't have a clue what any of this has to do with a rosey outlook or nostalgia. I was stating what I know to be a fact accord

I'd say there's something special about southern women. I was born in the 40's. I still own a gun. I go the the shooting range regularly, and I always clean it when I get home from the range.

:tu:

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i've never even heard of anyone doing anything like that in real life, much less witnessed it. I would leave any party where firearms were openly present...period.

The "average American" my age was raised how to use a gun and have respect for them. I can't say the same for the generation that would be the age of my grandchildren, if I had any.

Well I was an army brat, but my high school years was out in a small town in Oregon. There wasn't much to do except party out in the woods and shoot up mailboxes and traffic signs.

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where did I mention federal law at all? And I am real tired of the paranoid ramblings,. Obama is almost gone from office, and you still got your guns and your stupid bible and the UN is not rolling down the street. Good imaginary god. I am so sick of this crap in this country,. You people are fricken nuts.

Oh so you don't want federal gun control. I have to believe in fantasy not to be fricken nuts or paranoid. Nice.

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Lets just remind ourselves that America has one of the highest homicide rates in the developed world, and all because of the free availability of guns which makes killing people far easier.

16.3 per 100,000 in USA

3 per 100,000 in EU

Which unless you want to compare yourself to Africa (12.5 per 100,000) is very informative.

https://en.wikipedia...l_homicide_rate

Looking at your link, the US is 111 out of 218, which, given, isn't much to crow about, but it is hardly a savage frontier.

Ukraine, Belarus, Estonia... all compare to be about the same as the US. Pakistan, Russia, the Philippines... All have about twice the rate of gun violence. You are saying that all those nations are Barbarians?

Switzerland is everything the USA is not.

Which is cultural, not a fact of percentage of gun ownership.

This proves the point that guns are not clearly correlated to shooting deaths. It is a culture that drives the killing, not gun ownership. Gun availability even in gun banning nations shows that banning doesn't work, and shooting deaths there are also and correlated to gun ownership.

So its Americans who are the real problem.

I'd agree with that, in as much as Americans are generally more violent anyway then Europeans or Japanese. I'd imagine that knife based deaths, and road rage based deaths are also three to four times what they would be in Europe. I'll see if I can find such data....

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This has already been posted probably, but I'll post it again since it came up in my researching....

http://thefederalist.com/2014/11/11/knives-kill-more-people-each-year-than-rifles-time-for-knife-control/

According to crime statistics from the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), knives are consistently used to kill people far more often than rifles are used. And the numbers aren’t even close: five times as many murders were committed with knives than were committed with rifles last year.

The FBI statistics show that knives have been used as a murder weapon far more often than rifles — even those evil “assault weapons” we hear so much about — for quite a while. In 2013, knives or other cutting instruments were used to kill 1,490 victims. In contrast, rifles were the cause of death of 285 murder victims. Shotguns were used in 308 murders. In 2009, the ratio was very similar: knives were used in five times as many murders as rifles.

Knives are made for only one reason, right? To cut meat... meaning people.

Guns are only to kill people, right? So we must ban knife ownership too. 1500 people is too many, right?

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This is interesting....

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/outside-americas-knives-are-often-weapon-choice-homicides-180949953/?no-ist

According to the United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime, firearms account for 76 percent of homicide weapons in the Americas (30 countries), while knives make up just 10 percent of those crimes. In Europe (32 countries), on the other hand, guns are involved in 36 percent of murders and knives are involved in 43 percent.

Going back to BC's link....

We see a rate of 4.7 per 100,000 for the US, or about 0.47 for knife killings (And 3.5 for guns). (Oh yeah BC, that 16.3 was for ALL the Americas, including the ultra violent Central and Southern Americas.) In the EU, say Germany or France, that 43% knife rate comes to 0.43.

OR about the same as the USA.

Which maybe means that people in Europe are just as blood thirsty as Americans, or maybe it means people in the US are 4 times (10% versus 40%) more like (just as with guns!!!) to murder with a knife.

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Guest Br Cornelius

This has already been posted probably, but I'll post it again since it came up in my researching....

http://thefederalist...-knife-control/

Knives are made for only one reason, right? To cut meat... meaning people.

Guns are only to kill people, right? So we must ban knife ownership too. 1500 people is too many, right?

Hand guns and machine guns are made to kill people. Rifles are mostly for hunting.

As I have alluded to there are societal reasons why homicides are more common in the USA and they are a poor reflection on American values. Until those values change those homicide rates will remain higher than for Europe, but removing guns from the mix would certainly help bring them down.

If you consider it helpful to compare yourself to Russia and Pakistan then good for you :tu:

Another study demonstrating the correlation between guns and homicides, whats significant about this study is that they accounted for the national decline in crime rates across their study period making it a level playingfield so to speak:

Objectives. We examined the relationship between levels of household firearm ownership, as measured directly and by a proxy—the percentage of suicides committed with a firearm—and age-adjusted firearm homicide rates at the state level.

Methods. We conducted a negative binomial regression analysis of panel data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s Web-Based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting Systems database on gun ownership and firearm homicide rates across all 50 states during 1981 to 2010. We determined fixed effects for year, accounted for clustering within states with generalized estimating equations, and controlled for potential state-level confounders.

Results. Gun ownership was a significant predictor of firearm homicide rates (incidence rate ratio = 1.009; 95% confidence interval = 1.004, 1.014). This model indicated that for each percentage point increase in gun ownership, the firearm homicide rate increased by 0.9%.

Conclusions. We observed a robust correlation between higher levels of gun ownership and higher firearm homicide rates. Although we could not determine causation, we found that states with higher rates of gun ownership had disproportionately large numbers of deaths from firearm-related homicides.

Read More: http://ajph.aphapubl...ournalCode=ajph

And another:

Introduction

Although some view the ownership of firearms as a deterrent to crime, the relationship between population-level firearm ownership rates and violent criminal perpetration is unclear. The purpose of this study is to test the association between state-level firearm ownership and violent crime.

Methods

State-level rates of household firearm ownership and annual rates of criminal acts from 2001, 2002, and 2004 were analyzed in 2014. Firearm ownership rates were taken from a national survey and crime data were taken from the Federal Bureau of Investigation Uniform Crime Reports. Rates of criminal behavior were estimated as a function of household gun ownership using negative binomial regression models, controlling for several demographic factors.

Results

Higher levels of firearm ownership were associated with higher levels of firearm assault and firearm robbery. There was also a significant association between firearm ownership and firearm homicide, as well as overall homicide.

Conclusions

The findings do not support the hypothesis that higher population firearm ownership rates reduce firearm-associated criminal perpetration. On the contrary, evidence shows that states with higher levels of firearm ownership have an increased risk for violent crimes perpetrated with a firearm. Public health stakeholders should consider the outcomes associated with private firearm ownership.

http://www.ajpmonlin...0072-0/abstract

And this study demonstrates that it is a persons own family who is most at risk from a gun owner, which puts the lie to the case that guns are about protection from violent unknown criminals:

OBJECTIVES:

We examined the relationship between gun ownership and stranger versus nonstranger homicide rates.

METHODS:

Using data from the Supplemental Homicide Reports of the Federal Bureau of Investigation's Uniform Crime Reports for all 50 states for 1981 to 2010, we modeled stranger and nonstranger homicide rates as a function of state-level gun ownership, measured by a proxy, controlling for potential confounders. We used a negative binomial regression model with fixed effects for year, accounting for clustering of observations among states by using generalized estimating equations.

RESULTS:

We found no robust, statistically significant correlation between gun ownership and stranger firearm homicide rates. However, we found a positive and significant association between gun ownership and nonstranger firearm homicide rates. The incidence rate ratio for nonstranger firearm homicide rate associated with gun ownership was 1.014 (95% confidence interval=1.009, 1.019).

CONCLUSIONS:

Our findings challenge the argument that gun ownership deters violent crime, in particular, homicides.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25121817

So do you all actually maintain that higher gun ownership reduces crime in the face of a wall of empirical evidence to the contrary.

Fetish it is then.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
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Guest Br Cornelius

I said earlier that Gun Ownership has become a minority fetish and here is the proof:

According to the latest General Social Survey, 32% of Americans either own a firearm themselves or live with someone who does, which ties a record low set in 2010. That’s a significant decline since the late 1970s and early 1980s, when about half of Americans told researchers there was a gun in their household.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/10/america-gun-ownership-hunting-rates-record-lows

It seems to me that the significant proportion of Republicans who advocate for guns but don't actually own one are probably that crazy little sect that thinks the Government are coming to get them and send them to FEMA camps.

Br Cornelius

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Or it might be the rabid MSM anti-gun sentiment is making people more wary of revealing the fact they own any weapons at all.

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Guest Br Cornelius

Doubtful.

i suppose it can't have escaped the attention of the Federal Government that there is an increaslingly heavily armed (think semi-automatic and automatic)minority of gun nuts who really do represent a threat to domestic security. After all its not as if they haven't been shouting off their mouths about their intention to take down the government.

I suppose sometime the paranoid are right.

Br Cornelius

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You are talking about a very vocal minority. Most people I know would not a answer a question of a random poll confirming they had firearms. They simply believe it's no one's business.

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Guest Br Cornelius

You are talking about a very vocal minority. Most people I know would not a answer a question of a random poll confirming they had firearms. They simply believe it's no one's business.

I don't buy your excuse. An anonymous poll would have the same level of compliance now as it did in the 1980's.

Br Cornelius

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The long arm of the government has expanded greatly since 9/11. The NSA and current technology have made it almost impossible to be totally anonymous.

Edited by Michelle
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Paranoia much.

Br Cornelius

Not paranoid, just more cautious. We all know the NSA looks for certain tag words to investigate people for terrorism whether domestic or international. Anyone who thinks otherwise is in denial.

After the Boston marathon bombing a family's home in Long Island was visited by the joint terrorism task force because the mother looked up pressure cookers and the father was looking for a backpack. It was all over the news and is not an isolated incident.

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Good imaginary god. I am so sick of this crap in this country,. You people are fricken nuts.

Move. We'll miss you.
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Guest Br Cornelius

Move. We'll miss you.

Hey jo, I hate to tell you this but your the ever shrinking minority. Maybe its time for you to move - how about that independent state of Texas :yes:

Br Cornelius

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I said earlier that Gun Ownership has become a minority fetish and here is the proof:

Then why are gun sales spiking? Why is it estimated that there are still some 300 million guns owned in this nation? It can't be a minority going hog wild. I think Michelle is correct when she says that people are wary about answering polls.

probably that crazy little sect that thinks the Government are coming to get them and send them to FEMA camps.

You really don't understand what government is do you? Of any group on this planet, what entity has the power to send you to a FEMA camp? Why would they do that? Because they can. History shows that all government leans more and more toward totalitarianism as time goes on. Do you not understand that? You think it couldn't happen here? This nation is losing control over its checks and balances, of course it can happen here. It is just a matter of time. You're either ok with that or very naïve.

You better believe paranoid. I can just imagine BR with his arms handcuffed behind his back as they take him away and he's screaming, "You can do that! I'm one of you!"

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Then why are gun sales spiking? Why is it estimated that there are still some 300 million guns owned in this nation? It can't be a minority going hog wild. I think Michelle is correct when she says that people are wary about answering polls.

You really don't understand what government is do you? Of any group on this planet, what entity has the power to send you to a FEMA camp? Why would they do that? Because they can. History shows that all government leans more and more toward totalitarianism as time goes on. Do you not understand that? You think it couldn't happen here? This nation is losing control over its checks and balances, of course it can happen here. It is just a matter of time. You're either ok with that or very naïve.

You better believe paranoid. I can just imagine BR with his arms handcuffed behind his back as they take him away and he's screaming, "You can do that! I'm one of you!"

problem is your kind only sees conspiracy by government. even if your paranoid Klan could overthrow the government in a few years you would have a problem with that too. You do not think. you only draw one conclusion about everything in life. Something dark is at work. Evil forces always at work in government. they are plotting to take your stuff, and read your mail and peep in your windows. It must a scary place inside that deluded head of yours.

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.

Americans love their guns, don't they....and love talking about guns....

just saying...

(don't mind me - - carry on please.... :innocent: )

.

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