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F3SS

Guns save lives thread

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spartan max2

I am not a liberal and I never tolerate stupid.

and stupid is whoever does not agree with your infinite wisdom?

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FLOMBIE

this must be that famous liberal "tolerance and acceptance" I always hear about

I don't think you are talking about about liberals, but progressives.

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CrimsonKing

I don't think you are talking about about liberals, but progressives.

I know in other countries there is a difference between the two,not so much in the US.

What the hell happened to this thread since i was last here,looks more like the "Guns cause tears" thread WTF?!?!

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FLOMBIE

I know in other countries there is a difference between the two,not so much in the US.

What the hell happened to this thread since i was last here,looks more like the "Guns cause tears" thread WTF?!?!

I guess it's more of a problem that most people do not know what liberal or progressive really means. I have met a lot of people who claimed they'd be "liberal", but are not.

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spartan max2

I don't think you are talking about about liberals, but progressives.

I dont have anything against people with those ideologies, Like I understand they just have different ideas on how to solve the same problems. I just hate when people assume someone with the other view from them is like the devil or a moron. There are a never ending amount of smart and dumb people on each side. It just depends on what you value that decides more so then intelligence, in my opinion

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FLOMBIE

I dont have anything against people with those ideologies, Like I understand they just have different ideas on how to solve the same problems. I just hate when people assume someone with the other view from them is like the devil or a moron. There are a never ending amount of smart and dumb people on each side. It just depends on what you value that decides more so then intelligence, in my opinion

I agree with you. But liberals can compromise, even with right wingers, whereas progressives cannot.

That said, I am not a fan of ideologies per se. I like to think for myself.

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mbrn30000

and stupid is whoever does not agree with your infinite wisdom?

no stupid is the right wing wackos. paranoid and dumb. to the dumb fox news is actually news. stupid stupid stupid.

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Br Cornelius

Br, you do realize in the wake of this latest shooting that thousands of people went out and bought a gun? That kind of negates the one lone (maybe real, maybe not) guy who decided to give up his gun. Do not expect to see a movement because of this.

As i keep saying people have irrational beliefs and it costs them their lives sometimes. Are we to pander and encourage irrationality and is the state going to do nothing to stop the fallout from this irrationality.

Saying that people have bought guns as a consequence of these shooting is saying that some people left their brain in neutral.

Br Cornelius

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Br Cornelius

this must be that famous liberal "tolerance and acceptance" I always hear about

There's no obligation to tolerate the ignorance of others. really there isn't.

Br Cornelius

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aztek

There's no obligation to tolerate the ignorance of others. really there isn't.

Br Cornelius

maybe they are not the ignorant ones, may be it is you.

i'm pretty sure thousands of people living in usa see and understand things a lot better than someone thousands miles away, and who never been to usa.

thinking that you know it better, is what ignorance is.

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Shayde

Question. Though one really not best answered on this thread I'll admit.

What is wrong with having liberal views? See, I have noticed that in US politics especially, the term liberal seems to equate with having just defecated in public in front of a coach load of nuns. Yes, I know that your brand of political debate goes more to the person, not the party (hells, we're going the same over here) but whenever any mention of having a liberal position is made, then it seems that such a position is regarded as being worse than ultra right wing. In the current - and at times heated debate on firearms - it seems that having a stance that goes towards the middle ground is wrong, but having one based on blind adherence to not making any concession or change to your laws is a right non starter.

Same applies to any posts - here and elsewhere on line. If anybody outside the US makes a point about gun control, we're sniped at. Please understand, we're not suggesting that you in the US make any laws like any other country, but your powers-at-be have an opportunity to see how others have addressed this problem, and make news laws that could be better.

I've said before, both here and in other places, your problem, your need a solution, but don't ignore advice from others. Other countries have managed to deal - rightly or wrongly - with the issue of gun control. Don't ignore the problem, deal with it. Before you get from one mass shooting a week to one a day.

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Michelle

I've said before, both here and in other places, your problem, your need a solution, but don't ignore advice from others. Other countries have managed to deal - rightly or wrongly - with the issue of gun control. Don't ignore the problem, deal with it. Before you get from one mass shooting a week to one a day.

I think it is because people who don't understand the situation clearly want to tackle the problem backwards. Case in point, a local gang member shot and almost killed another in a gang shooting. He was out on bail awaiting trial and he actually did manage to kill the next person he shot while he was up on charges for attempted murder. Why was this guy back out on the streets? He had a long record of armed robberies and assault charges and he was only about 21 years old. Why do people not want to address this issue first?

Edited by Michelle
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aztek

. If anybody outside the US makes a point about gun control, we're sniped at.

that all depends on what point you are making. if it is "gun control works here, you need to do same" your point, expect to be sniped at. why? because people that make such points, have no clue what really goes on in usa, and never been here, yet they convinced they know what needs to be done here. are you that person?

Edited by aztek

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F3SS

In short, there is nothing wrong with the views. The problem with libs lies in the fact that they have no tolerance towards others. None, zero and that they insist on cramming their ideals into my life. If you don't see things their way you are little more than a Neanderthal. They make demands, we ask to be left alone. They implement knee-jerk policies that only grow government and treat good citizens as criminals. The pro-gun crowd always says do whatever you want in your home or country but they insist, like grouchy nannies filled with hubris, that we must do things their way. Stop imposing your will and your way, it's not mine. They think they're better than everyone else, they are as intolerant as anything regardless of their self proclaimed ownership of social fairness issues and will never live in the world they prescribe for you. They believe the world cannot function without their oversight. They police language and are all around busy bodies who can't mind their own. They're also quite racist and bigoted. They see people as colors and little groups instead of just people.

And that's just the start. You asked.

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Br Cornelius

maybe they are not the ignorant ones, may be it is you.

i'm pretty sure thousands of people living in usa see and understand things a lot better than someone thousands miles away, and who never been to usa.

thinking that you know it better, is what ignorance is.

My position is based on academic evidence that more guns equals more deaths. There is nothing ignorant about accepting that - but its very ignorant to deny it in the face of a mountain of evidence.

Ignorance has a specific meaning - and it isn't about accepting another opinion if they are wrong, its about not knowing the evidence or facts.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Shayde

that all depends on what point you are making. if it is "gun control works here, you need to do same" your point, expect to be sniped at. why? because people that make such points, have no clue what really goes on in usa, and never been here, yet they convinced they know what needs to be done here. are you that person?

Would like to think I'm not that sort of person. Though I've only visited your nation three times, I do try and keep up to speed to what's happening in several nations. And that's why from overseas a lot of folk are not understanding why the gun situation in the US is at this level of... well, it's probably a harsh term to use, but level of madness. Yes, we have shootings just as bad everywhere else in the world. To deny that would be foolish and stupid. But compare recent shootings in France, Germany, even the UK (We had at least two shootings happening within ten miles from where I live in the last month. Both criminal related). They do not occur at the same frequency that you have in America. It's at least, what, five a day in each US state now? And that's not just counting accidents and misuse. You have a mass shooting happening on a near weekly basis now. Is that a record to be proud of?

I get that any country hates having another wag their finger, saying "Now now, learn from others!". Such advice is always going to be taken badly. Look how much snipping we get in Britain from other nations. But understand also how this makes your country look to the rest of the world. Advice can always be given, it's what is done with it that matters. Yes, you have a major issue with gun advocacy groups having bought your political lot hook line and sucker, but please, this situation needs addressed. If only to stop having another headline broadcast across the world that it seems that even a kindergarten is not a safe place from a person who has a gun, especially as it seems that weapons are given even to those who for medical reasons should barely even have a pea shooter.

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Br Cornelius

In short, there is nothing wrong with the views. The problem with libs lies in the fact that they have no tolerance towards others. None, zero and that they insist on cramming their ideals into my life. If you don't see things their way you are little more than a Neanderthal. They make demands, we ask to be left alone. They implement knee-jerk policies that only grow government and treat good citizens as criminals. The pro-gun crowd always says do whatever you want in your home or country but they insist, like grouchy nannies filled with hubris, that we must do things their way. Stop imposing your will and your way, it's not mine. They think they're better than everyone else, they are as intolerant as anything regardless of their self proclaimed ownership of social fairness issues and will never live in the world they prescribe for you. They believe the world cannot function without their oversight. They police language and are all around busy bodies who can't mind their own. They're also quite racist and bigoted. They see people as colors and little groups instead of just people.

And that's just the start. You asked.

If you positions were evidence based rather than opinion then you might just have a point.

I am happy to argue the evidence till the cows come home, but what we are seeing here is an opinion which is not supported by the evidence. Not all opinions are actually valid, an opinion is only worth something if it can be shown to work. What the evidence says is that the prevelance of guns in the USA is the cause of its extremely high homicide rate. if you want a lower homicide rate then the only solution is to reduce gun ownership. If you argue against this then you are arguing in favour of a national high homicide rate. If thats what you want argue away, but don't expect anyone else to buy it as valid.

Br Cornelius

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F3SS

If you positions were evidence based rather than opinion then you might just have a point.

I am happy to argue the evidence till the cows come home, but what we are seeing here is an opinion which is not supported by the evidence. Not all opinions are actually valid, an opinion is only worth something if it can be shown to work. What the evidence says is that the prevelance of guns in the USA is the cause of its extremely high homicide rate. if you want a lower homicide rate then the only solution is to reduce gun ownership. If you argue against this then you are arguing in favour of a national high homicide rate. If thats what you want argue away, but don't expect anyone else to buy it as valid.

Br Cornelius

If you want to see our high homicde rate decline then I ask that you join an outcry to target and eliminate street gangs with extreme prejudice. Sadly, our liberals call that profiling and profiling is racist. I think it's logical. Evidence points to certain demographics in certain locales yet somehow everything is still the right wings fault. Maybe if the liberals encouraged prosperity and denounced dependence we'd some decline in crime stemming from poverty stricken areas which btw are poverty stricken due to liberal policies of government dependence. As for mass shooters, they're nearly impossible to see coming. They're lone wolves.

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aztek

there are people here that live in poverty, all races live in poverty yet violnce and crime mostly commited by 1 demographic. i never heard of such poor white, or asian, or arabic areas where crime\drugs, is a common as in black areas, yet it is racist to even mention it.

Edited by aztek

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spartan max2

My position is based on academic evidence that more guns equals more deaths. There is nothing ignorant about accepting that - but its very ignorant to deny it in the face of a mountain of evidence.

Ignorance has a specific meaning - and it isn't about accepting another opinion if they are wrong, its about not knowing the evidence or facts.

Br Cornelius

The academic part is debatable which I would rather not get in too because im sure that has been done on this thread countless times.

But on an individual level myself and any person should have the right to protect themselves. Someone will be stronger then you, out number you or be better at fighting. You as a person should have the right to defend yourself, the idea of not allowing that is just insane to me. So even if statistically more shootings or deaths happen I would still support the right of gun ownership, I should have the right to protect myself and those I love. Its that simple. I cant control other people but I can control myself

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Br Cornelius

there are people here that live in poverty, all races live in poverty yet violnce and crime mostly commited by 1 demographic. i never heard of such poor white, or asian, or arabic areas where crime\drugs, is a common as in black areas, yet it is racist to even mention it.

The FBI's own data doesn't support this position at all:

https://www.fbi.gov/...fender_2013.xls

If you are basis your opinion on a false understanding of the data then you are going to draw false conclusions.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Br Cornelius

The academic part is debatable which I would rather not get in too because im sure that has been done on this thread countless times.

But on an individual level myself and any person should have the right to protect themselves. Someone will be stronger then you, out number you or be better at fighting. You as a person should have the right to defend yourself, the idea of not allowing that is just insane to me. So even if statistically more shootings or deaths happen I would still support the right of gun ownership, I should have the right to protect myself and those I love. Its that simple. I cant control other people but I can control myself

You can defend yourself better if you aren't threatened by a gun. Its circular logic you are indulging in.

The only way to adequately protect yourself is to take guns out of the equation.

You cannot protect yourself by flooding the country with guns - it is simply not possible.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Michelle

The FBI's own data doesn't support this position at all:

https://www.fbi.gov/...fender_2013.xls

If you are basis your opinion on a false understanding of the data then you are going to draw false conclusions.

Br Cornelius

It depends on where you live, not national statistics.

Either way, the decline is small comfort to Smith. The number of total shootings and homicides in Chattanooga this year is at about the same level as the last two years — 99 incidents at this point in 2013, 92 in 2014 and 91 this year. Most of the victims, like Smith's son, are young black men.

"This senseless violence, it's every day," Smith said. "It's every single day."

Gang-related violence is also holding steady in 2015. Police recorded 67 gang-related shootings and homicides at the end of August 2013, 52 in 2014 and 53 so far this year.

cont...

http://www.timesfree...es-2015/323716/

Edited by Michelle

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aztek

The FBI's own data doesn't support this position at all:

it actually does, read it again. not just homicide page. i know it is hard for you so let me make it easy for you, in 2013 whites commited 5375 murders, blacks 4396, whites 63% population, blacks 13%. these are all numbers i need to know.

i base my opinion on what i see around me. i would love for you to take a night strol by projects,

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Br Cornelius

It depends on where you live, not national statistics.

Either way, the decline is small comfort to Smith. The number of total shootings and homicides in Chattanooga this year is at about the same level as the last two years — 99 incidents at this point in 2013, 92 in 2014 and 91 this year. Most of the victims, like Smith's son, are young black men.

"This senseless violence, it's every day," Smith said. "It's every single day."

Gang-related violence is also holding steady in 2015. Police recorded 67 gang-related shootings and homicides at the end of August 2013, 52 in 2014 and 53 so far this year.

cont...

http://www.timesfree...es-2015/323716/

The evidence clearly states that you are more likely top use a gun if you are a white male, and as such your beliefs are letting you down again.

Br Cornelius

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