Croatia gets green light to join EU

[WoIverine]

Now were talking chicken and eggs. Itleast I dont have data on these countries from before they joined EU but from afar they seemed to be doing just fine.

Exactly, prior to the Euro, did anyone hear about Italy, Spain, Greece, or Cyprus going bankrupt? Nothing comes to mind. In fact, Italy, Spain, even Greece to an extent are tourist traps. You would think there economy's would be strong.

Edited March 27, 2013 by WoIverine

[AsteroidX]

Thats like saying "Dave was healthy untill he started wearing red sweat shirts, ten years after he began he died, therefore red sweatshirts killed him and should never be worn by anyone"

Exactly, prior to the Euro, did anyone hear about Italy, Spain, Greece, or Cyprus going bankrupt? Nothing comes to mind.

That very well could be true. Id love to see the data that surrounds that question.

[Wyrdlight]

Exactly, prior to the Euro, did anyone hear about Italy, Spain, Greece, or Cyprus going bankrupt? Nothing comes to mind. In fact, Italy, Spain, even Greece to an extent are tourist traps. You would think there economy's would be strong.

Well spain a civil war-ridden dictatorship with a backwards economy remiscient of the 1800's.

Greece was pretty much the same, only smaller and poorer and wrecked from the rigours of the second world war.

Cyprus was a tiny island with a small population of farmers.

"tourist" economies only exist in the age of commerical flight, which was not around to the same degree back before the EU was founded.

[AsteroidX]

"tourist" economies only exist in the age of commerical flight, which was not around to the same degree back before the EU was founded.

I feel like were starting to derail the topic of this thread as it is about Croatia. My bad for contributing but this statement is completely false.

[WoIverine]

I see. I'd still play it safe and wait a while if it was me (in reference to Croatia). Then reevaluate at a later point once they solve the economic issues in the EU. At least you know that nothing could really become any worse than it already is by not joining. Grass isn't always greener.

Edited March 27, 2013 by WoIverine

[Helen of Annoy]

IMO be very afraid of this. The investments will wind up in Big Pockets as has been proven over and over around the globe. I can cite many examples of this if needed. Not all EU related as thats not really my place to care so much.

This is the monetary moment. It will change, not because I want it to change, but because the current greed unleashed model is not sustainable.

National identity is important but shouldnt be tied to joining an organization. Again caution eating the worm as it may have a hook attached to it. But I am glad that you feel pride in joining the "western world" again. Im not really sure why you didnt already get that sense after the war. You earned that much after said event.

Croatian national identity survived 9 centuries of unions with Hungary and Austria, then 73 years of very serious de-identification in ex-Yugoslavia.

I wouldn’t worry for our identity. I’d worry for those who have a problem with it.

It sounds like corruption is rampant in Croatia. The EU will not rid you of this. It will only exploit it and switch the pockets that are getting lined IMO.

But I would like to add if thats what the people there want then more power to them. I hope I never to turn around and say I cautionarily warned you Helen.

Switching the pockets is good start. I want to see the thieving traitors broke before I die. Then we’ll worry about changing monetary moment I mentioned above.

There’s the right time for everything.

Thank you for kind advice, but the situation is really very clear to me.

I’d rather starve in Europe than live in some next Warsaw pact gulag and chance for starving always was and always will be greater in gulag than in Europe.

[SHaYap]

funny how nobody mentions the 'US debt ceilings'

[TheLastLazyGun]

I’m glad you like my land. It's not Baltic country, as you certainly know but authors of the article don't Croatia is just below Austria and Hungary or looking from Italy, right there, across Adriatic sea. It truly is beautiful and its nature is quite preserved.

Everything else is wrong, falling or has already fallen apart I could lie, but what would be the point? Is it a disaster over here? Yes, it is.

But.

The way I see it: we must hit the rock bottom before we can go up again. The economy is ruined, production devastated (intentionally), resources in danger to be sold.

If we continue isolated, outside EU, we’ll never get up again. We need investments and – to be honest again – professionals who can run business and make sure the investments won’t end up in private pockets. We need EU to poke its nose into our “family affairs” – anything that goes on over here is family affair and that is one of the main reasons why we can’t go forward.

Those in EU who are afraid (well, rightfully) of another immigration wave – don’t worry, people. There are 4 and half million people in Croatia. Even if we’d all collectively pack our bags and hit the borders, you still wouldn’t notice us in the migrating masses.

And I guarantee you there won’t be any exodus. Majority of people who wanted to emigrate already did it.

Joining EU has great symbolic value for most of older Croats. We remember different times and it means a lot to us that we are coming home to Europe.

In a way, I can die happy now. It was similar with entering NATO.

So, there’s nothing economical or political in Croatia that can possibly worsen with joining EU. I even trust EU will help substitute tribalism with sane methods of running business or country. I’m tired of retarded local politician’s nephews grabbing money out of dying factories with both unwashed hands. May someone put an end to it, even if it means shutting every-****en-thing down and starting all over again. We can’t restart on our own, not because we lack natural resources or able people, we can’t because there are morons in the key positions.

(Corruption is lesser problem, the real problem is that Croatian corrupted mob is mostly stupid. They don’t just steal a little milk, they are killing milking cows they obtained in criminal “pretvorba” – process of privatisation, when what was the property of the people in socialism was given to chosen members of HDZ party. Our businessmen have not developed their companies, they were given those companies for literally nothing so they don’t run them, they abuse them. Etc. Sorry for the rant, it's something that ruined my future so I simply had to mention it.)

I also hope we won’t be the straw that broke EU camel’s back.

Of course, my hopes are completely irrelevant, only time will tell.

So far, I’m just happy we fought out of eastern sphere, tooth and nail. We can be a little hungry for a while longer if that’s the price. I’m fine with that

Well, it's not too bad being in the EU if you are a poorer country like Croatia which will be a net receiver of EU money.

It's just not so good being in the EU when you are a very rich country like Britain or Germany and your tax money is being spent on bailing out some corrupt Southern European country whose citizens don't pay their taxes.

Or when the EU spends your tax money on encouraging people to eat insects "to save the environment"; or when it spends it on a £35,000 dog fitness centre in Hungary.

Edited March 27, 2013 by TheLastLazyGun

[Helen of Annoy]

Well, it's not too bad being in the EU if you are a poorer country like Croatia which will be a net receiver of EU money.

It's just not so good being in the EU when you are a very rich country like Britain or Germany and your tax money is being spent on bailing out some corrupt Southern European country whose citizens don't pay their taxes.

Or when the EU spends your tax money on encouraging people to eat insects "to save the environment"; or when it spends it on a £35,000 dog fitness centre in Hungary.

I don’t think we’ll receive much, it will mostly be laundered through dog fitness centres and get back to your neighbourhood. There were the money cycle begins, there it also ends or it wouldn’t be a cycle and judging by the accumulation of wealth, it is a damn cycle.

The rest is me ranting, feel free to skip it:

There are no banking or stock market culture in Croatia, it’s all in foreign hands and ‘scuse my bluntness, but UK is still “rich” because of monetary and stock exchange routes and centres, not because of real production of anything anymore.

I hope for investments and opening to EU market to start revival of production (agricultural and industrial) in my country, not your dole.

If some of your parasites is willing to invest – hooray, if not – no one will care for unemployment rate in a country of a smaller town size. What they take from you will not reach me. And it shouldn’t reach me.

Dole is not what I expect or want from EU.

I want laws, forced by institutions more powerful and less impressionable with local “businessmen” than Croatian courts (few honourable exceptions there), so that domestic plunder is reduced to minimum.

I want less complicated customs so once plunder is reduced we can sell our modest products (food is truly natural and weapons reliable) and make honest living. I also suspect Germany (and Hungary if they manage to get up, fingers crossed for them) could use our ports. Infrastructure is not that bad at all, roads are new and totally western, railroads need few managers publicly hanged (if only I was kidding) and some maintenance etc.

No one can make me believe Croatia can’t live from its own work. We can. It’s the lack of political will to stop world market havoc but that will change. Hopefully, before new generations lose any values or working habits.

As for eating insects, each of those nutjobs is damaging the environment more than my whole village combined. I don’t take lectures on environment from urban hippies because I am the environment. A little more literate earthworm.

Which reminds me to tell you all I won’t be on line as much as I used to because I have a garden to tend, if global warming finally melts the damn snow that has fallen again. In the end of March. *crosses herself*

Anyway, back to EU.

It’s the only logical frame for future Europe.

Monetary chaos today will become monetary catharsis tomorrow – makes me sigh with relief because I have no savings to lose and then things will start progressing again. Like it was after world wars, only we seemingly had no world war this time. Which is a good thing, only people who didn’t experience war don’t appreciate peace alone, they want luxury too. And that is perfectly reasonable, I want more too.

What I do not want is your resources. I want sound logic instead of shortsighted greed to run politics and economy.

I believe I can have it and from my country’s perspective, we can have it faster with EU than without it.

EU is still young for an socio-economic entity and its baby steps were mostly discouraging, but I believe it will learn to walk. Not many babies were tripped by their own parents when they were learning to walk, so EU is not only entity to blame for its clumsiness.

And, by the way, I’m not afraid of foreigners suddenly buying property in Croatia. We’re still quite rural so it’s mostly very agreeable people that choose this land to move to. I consider them welcomed addition to our traditional atmosphere of ethnic, cultural, linguistic and gastronomic circus.

Also, I’ll tell you why I really want Croatia to enter EU this year: my passport is expiring soon and I don’t want to fork out 50 euros for new one.

Rant over.

[SHaYap]

If it wasn't for the lovely Croatian wines .... pity the wine market is bunked now, after all the humble grape can only carry so many so far ...

[Helen of Annoy]

If it wasn't for the lovely Croatian wines .... pity the wine market is bunked now, after all the humble grape can only carry so many so far ...

Thank you for initiating another of my train wrecks of thought

“I drank with Russians and I almost died. The next day I drank with Croats and wished I died yesterday.”

Kidding. It’s just an old joke.

But this one really happened:

Older man was confronted about his alcohol abuse. And he replied: “But, kids, I don’t drink alcohol! Who in his right mind would drink alcohol with all this fine wine and brandy in my cellar!”

[WoIverine]

funny how nobody mentions the 'US debt ceilings'

The haven't applied for statehood yet. lol

[stevewinn]

The world is too small for a nation to exist in isolation, UK leaving the EU would be worse than stupid. Our economy would collaspe. The future lies in a global world, first step on that ladder is a EU state.

The UK is and never will be in isolation. the UK remains one of the worlds great powers. both economically and militarily. our economy would not collapse if we left the political union. in fact they do more trade with us than we do with them. do you think our largest trading partners in the EU are going to sit at the table and vote for a proposal which would damage their economies? No. you clearly haven't noticed but the UK is a global trading nation and as been since the early 1500's - back in 1972-75 when we joined the EU during them years we turned our back on our friends and family, such as Australia New Zealand, Canada etc.. even India and south Africa. this was a mistake that today still casts a shadow over UK trade. now we find ourselves forbidden by the EU to strike our own trade deals, how can it be right the worlds fifth largest economy is forbidden to negotiate its own trade deals with the likes of India. - I agree the future is global and as always been for our nation i've always said this, as a seafaring nation our past and future prosperity as always been the open oceans. not some little european backwater which you seem happy to become.

Ok, so lets imagine we are not in the EU.

1. The import costs and tarrifs we pay on food from EU nations would be much higher. We cannot phyisically feed our population, we dont have enough arable land.

2. We would lose status on the world socio-political and economic stage, our threats would lose weight, our ability to bargin and hold our own would be diminshed without the inherant backing being part of a larger organisation.

3. The costs of our citizens going to the EU becomes more expensive, bye bye cheap holidays to spain, welcome back Bognor and Blackpool.

4. Without the influx of young people from other nations having children our nation would be an aging one, in 20 years or so we would not by physically capable of paying pensions for example, the economy would stagnate as the burden of care increased.

You propose what exactly? Fortress Britain? Pill Box's on the white cliff and an isolationist attitude? North Korea has done brilliantly with such methods.

The world is too small, lets fast forward 200 years shall we. What kind of world do you expect your great great granchildren to live in? Can you really imagine HUNDREDS of little nations? To all intents and purposes the world is divided into powers.

1. USA.

2. South America.

3. Europe.

4. India

5. China.

6. Asian Tiger Economies, Japan, Taiwan, Korea, Malasia, Phillapines, Singapore etc

Over time they will get less and less, until there is either one or two I think.

Everyone freaks out about losing cultural identity, identity is retained. I am from South London, I am a Londener, I am also English, and British and a European Citizen. Being part of somthig bigger does not detract from who I am or where I come from, indeed i enriches it.

If im honest i encounter more rampant racism and fear-mongering from British people in day to day life than I can readily comprehend. It makes me ashamed to be British.

you have it all wrong, if we left the EU as regards to tariffs on trade its really simple. we join the free trade zone, trade is a two way street. like i said above when it comes to trade we trade at a deficit with the EU. if they impose 10% tariff we impose a 10% tariff on EU goods and that will effect them more than us, so they lose out. - anyway over 90% of our trade with the EU is covered by the world trade agreements.

as for losing political status in the world. are you being serious. we are members of the United Nations security council, hold a veto. member of the world Trade Organisation, contributer to the IMF Members of the G20, G8, and G7. Member of the Commonwealth of Nations member of NATO. Nuclear power, Royal Navy. a Navy which is blue water, second to only the USA. (only three such navies exist in the world with the other being France) we can project influence and force anywhere on the globe. - if you notice i've left out being member of the EU. so we would lose no influence at all if we left a political Union.

the Future is global trade with the BRICS. Brazil, Russia, India, China South Africa. the UK should leave the EU and start negotiations with these countries. on our own terms and conditions. not held back by EU rules. as for tiger Economies. Iceland and Ireland were known as Tiger economies. within 5 years they've become nothing more than ol' Moggy Economies.

what you need to realise is you are already apart of something which is much, much bigger than the EU, you are British, listen we havent struggled over the last four centuries coming from an impoverished nation to what we have been and what we are to just throw it all away. 190+ countries in the world and were never out of the top 6 countries in the world in all that time. as the French historian and philosopher Voltaire once said about us, ' how does such a small nation, with so little n' just a bit of tin become so mighty and affluent.

as for immigration, our economic system depends on immigration, its the way it works. but mass immigration what we have witnessed and the labour party have apologised for is just stupidity. and to argue different shows a lack of judgment. if you really understood the EU you'd know only one country benefits Germany. with its cheap trade within the EU and the free movement of the labour force. you watch over the coming months, the French are in trouble. they'll join the ranks of Italy Spain Greece. Portugal, Cyprus, Ireland.

The EU is not the be all and end all. simple as that. all this fear mongering about economic collapse etc... get a grip.

[Render]

. all this fear mongering about economic collapse etc... get a grip.

Maybe listen to your own words and stop your fearmongering of the inevitable collapsing of the EU.

Really getting old.

First you went on about Greece leaving the EU, now it was Cyprus that was definitely gonna be the second and everybody else was gonna follow...yadayadayada. And the EU was following a path to ultimate destruction blablabla. You have zero credibility in all your anti-EU rants.

Get a grip man, get a grip.

[stevewinn]

Amen. I think we'd be better off out, too, but more so because I'm tired of being dictated to by the EU. Not what our country signed up for. You raise good points also about our influence in the world, really doesn't matter how small the country is, size isn't everything

Britain will always be a leading nation, with or without the EU. If anything though, I feel like we have less influence as a member of the EU. Too many voices.

we have little influence when it comes to the EU itself. just look at the recent banking vote on taxing the bankers, or transaction tax. which is a direct attack on the British economy. those at the heart of the EU hate and i mean hate the fact London is the financial capital of Europe and attack it at every opportunity. anyway back to the vote, the vote was 26 to 1 against so we was outvoted 26 against us.

Maybe listen to your own words and stop your fearmongering of the inevitable collapsing of the EU.

Really getting old.

First you went on about Greece leaving the EU, now it was Cyprus that was definitely gonna be the second and everybody else was gonna follow...yadayadayada. And the EU was following a path to ultimate destruction blablabla. You have zero credibility in all your anti-EU rants.

Get a grip man, get a grip.

We are witnessing the collapse of the euro and possibly the knock on effect on the EU itself. - no fear mongering at all, switch on the NEWS channel. with each day the collapse gets closer. I wouldn't call my posts scaremongering more a commentary because the events are all happening, its here and now. we said the EU has run out of money. they simply cannot afford to bailout another country. the big fear is Spain. if that goes so does everything else. did you not notice what they've done to Cyprus? this was the new strategy first to send out a message - a warning to anyone else who needs bailing out, make them think twice. - plus it also tests the water to just how far the EU can go and will go and what a perfect guinea pig a small island economy which would send out very little shockwaves if the economy did collapse. all this is the future blueprint. if they cannot save the Euro/EU with their money they'll use yours. - dont you ever look at the reality. we have Greece which as become nothing more than a protectorate of the EU. Greece is not in recession but a depression and as been for the last six years going on seven years. the whole of club Med are in the mire. but lets look at the bigger picture, the problem as always been the divide between the richer northern members and the poor southern members. but whats happening now, the other two big economies France and Italy are not recovering nowhere near fast enough compared to Germany so while Germany pulls all the levers to keep its economy going it leaves the divide between them and France growing day by day. France is in real trouble. just look at the government cuts announced just the other day.

as for countries leaving the EU, i have to admit i underestimated the EU in just how far they will go. but answer this Greece has debts it cannot ever afford to pay back, Portugal the same and Spain will even struggle. on Thursday while watching the round up of the EU parliament i had to laugh when EU unelected commissioner olli Rehn stood up and said the EU's austerity plan is working, really? - what planet is this man on, doesn't he look out the window? he went on to say and i must add after a long boring speech the EU Members must pay an extra €9 Billion to cover costs for the EU budget. remember when they said their would be a 3% cut to the EU budget, well guess what this move was a way to get around it. so now the UK alone is going to pay an extra £1.2Billion. which they say will cost each household an extra £ 70+ pound.

meanwhile back in blighty we the people face cuts in all directions. yet £1.2 Billion will now find its way to the EU. its a bloody shambles the lot. its now costing us 10% of national output.

Edited March 29, 2013 by stevewinn

[SHaYap]

I sometimes wonder why is it that when it is 'the government' that is playing with the money numbers but its always the people that ends up with the red figures ?

[Helen of Annoy]

I sometimes wonder why is it that when it is 'the government' that is playing with the money numbers but its always the people that ends up with the red figures ?

Because hard-working, intelligent and favoured by gods top bankers and their dingleberries, the politicians, obviously deserve the luxury and lack of any responsibility, while the masses of ordinary people are there to serve as the audience for the greatness of the elite.

What else could be the reason?

Deliberate dumbification through religious and school systems, through media and even through medicine (there are so many disorders that could easily be cured by few slaps and/or hugs) – that would be conspiracy. And we know conspiracies don’t exist.

Each human has its own free will and mind, it would be impossible to set up dumbness, selfishness and irresponsibility as cornerstones of desirable life style. Impossible.

Yes, I like my coffee with sarcasm

Now, no sarcasm at all, the reason why this morbid system is ruining us all, regardless of geographical position, is because average person does not want better society, average person wants to be part of the elite and when they see worthless celebrities and cretinous politicians, they think to themselves: “Oh, yes, see, there’s nothing wrong with me, this is what human being should be like.”

People who would turn down bribe or chance to whore their future away are too rare to influence society in any measurable way.

So this “I’m too precious to actually work, this country is too civilized for industry” charade will keep grinding down through few more recessions/crisis, until the final halt. And that’s where I see the greatest value of EU: by the time of world-wide economic meltdown and complete chaos, true Europe will develop structures and more important habits of direct communication and joint efforts.

I do hope everything I ranted out is wrong.

[Frank Merton]

When there is free trade, everyone in the end prospers, although those who've been profiting from restricted trade in the past have to adjust.

The next step is free movement of people; when poorer and richer nations are alongside each other, frictions occur. In the end everyone is better off with the larger overall economy.

The next step is a unified currency. That has been moved forward too rapidly, before financial and fiscal policies were unified, but it has happened in Europe and they are better off doing the hard stuff now to make it work than sliding back.

At least that is what I think.

[SHaYap]

well the natural resources won't hold up those economic future numbers for long ... global economies and the 'unified' currency is the biggest hoax of the human civillization , it never worked then ... it sure as hell won't work now.

all we're ending up is at most a 'restructuring' of the global wealth order, lubricated with the blood of coming generations, nobody wants short painless wars. Its got profits enough to make the life losses write offs worth the numbers sustained for as long as they can squeeze and channel it among themselves. Who are 'they' ?

'They' are the same ones since recorded history, the bodies are different but they contains the same programs, policies and determination for profit.

No secret society necessary, the mythical 'secret societies' are red herrings.

My other nick name is 'no_eye_see'

~edit : why didn't qwerty place the 'f' further away from 'r' ?

Edited March 30, 2013 by third_eye