Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
supervike

Wealth Distribution.

212 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

Br Cornelius

Lee Dorans analysis seems at best a sniping at the edges of the big central issue of wealth disparity. Lots of hot air without much substance.

take for example his critique of health benefits - it is mostly the wealthy who have the best health benefits which go unrecorded in the wealth disparity accounting. It is mostly the poorest who have no health benefits - the point he raises runs counter to his central thesis.

Many of the other points would need careful investigation, but if he is so wrong on such an obvious fact I would have to question the veracity of the rest of what he has to say.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
CrimsonKing

Lazy and whiny fits the bill!

I train a guy who legally immigrated here from mexico,he is honest,hardworking,and wants to be viewed as an American only.He is trying his best to learn English and has came a long way in a short time,works 6 days a week,pays taxes,feeds his own family,trying to pay his own way through college,and when others ask him what his nationality is,he makes it a very clear point (though in a bit of broken english haha) I AM AMERICAN! I have tried helping him out a few times but he will not allow it,he has always responded "if i cannot get it on my own i will do without."

Would be very nice if most in this country shared his attitude,if so most would actually have something!Many citizens who were born here though keep that hand out as if they are owed gov money and they are owed respect just because of who they are.Sorry but a good way of life and respect are earned not given.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Michelle

A tremendous amount of people that succeed in the US are immigrants that don't come from a nanny state country. They didn't have a government to fall back on and don't have the victim mentality which is prevalent in some of our cultures.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RavenHawk

The highlighted bit is factually incorrect.

Actually, you only mean that second sentence. The rest is a question. And no, it is not factually incorrect.

the majority of the population have seen real wages stagnate or decline in the last 30years.

Yes, wages have been pitiful in just the last 5 years but on average they are still rising. Pitifully so but still rising. That's not the fault of the wealthy. That's the fault of a government trying to impose Socialism. Except for the Reagan boom, that has been the case since Johnson. Under the Republican Presidents since Johnson, I get a little better off, but during a Democrat's Admin, I lose all those gains and during a Democrat's second term, I lose my job. So I'm sweating things out right now.

It was only be access to cheap credit and morgaging their property that they managed to maintain the illusion of been more prosperous. This ruse collapsed when credit became unavailable due to the credit cruch and many of those middle class people day of reconing came and they lost their houses and their spending power.

Because of QE3, credit is plentiful, rates are low. People lost their homes because they couldn't pay the mortgage and the government forced banks to go against their natures to give out risky loans. Anyone unwise and irresponsible enough to "maintain the illusion of being more prosperous" earned their ruin.

The increase in wealth over the last 30years has in real wage terms almost totally gravitated to the top 1% of the population, and the bottom 15% have become substantially poorer.

Of course much of it gravitates to the top. That is the mechanics. That is how it is suppose to work. The rich get richer but so do the poor. Maybe not as fast as the rich but by the same token, the poor can't just sit there waiting for their pocketbook to grow. They have to put some effort into it. How 'bout answering the question of where do the American poor sit compared to the rest of the world? Our poor can afford anything from shoes to cell phones while the world's poor struggles for a grain of rice.

What do you do with the reality that most people will never be or want to become business leaders.

Not everybody needs to be a business leader, but if you want to be successful, you need some understanding of how business works. That's the reality. If you are so concerned with wealth, you will become a business leader. Most people just like to work hard and raise a family. They aren't going to build great wealth but they will be able to give their children a step up, giving them an opportunity to go on and do better.

What do you do with all of the people who's jobs have been sent to the far east.

I'd ask why? Well, not really. The why is obvious. Between a government over taxing the wealthy and the unions overstating a worker's value, you seriously think that one doesn't know why jobs go overseas? If it were me, I'd cut taxes and pay workers what they are worth for the job they are in. And I'd let the market drive what that price is. If you don't like that salary, then you are welcome to move on and start your own business. You can take the risk.

What do you do with a broken economy that no longer needs the people it was built on ?

Then you find the youth of those that it was built on and build it anew with a stronger free market.

Answer those questions before praising the lucky few who made it big.

I think I have. That's more than you have ever done. I'm not praising the lucky few (as you put it). I think all Americans are the lucky few. But I do praise that we live in a nation that opportunity is still there. Opportunity is what breeds success.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Right Wing

I am where I want to be and happy with it. Do not assume that yours is the only vision of the future - that arrogance really p***es me off.

Your society and the UK society will be in much worse state to weather the storms ahead than those social Democratic countries which encourage their citizens to acquire the skills needed to make the whole of society work. The dream you speak of is a nightmare of debt and isolation across much of America and the UK and it will turn nasty as fuel prices keep on rising and jobs keep on drifting to cheaper places. we cannot all be CEO's and Millionaires and what of the rest - what of the majority that have been left behind by your Neo-Liberal economics.

Br Cornelius

Why get so angry if I'm wrong?

People are encouraged to seek the skills needed for society to work. Again, the UK and the US have the highest social mobility of any developed country. Nobody is preventing you getting anywhere or forcing you to live a deprived lifestyle.

A decent standard of living is acquirable for all of our people and you most certainly dont need to be a CEO or millionarie to enjoy that. You sound like you need a faith healer.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Right Wing

Lazy and whiny fits the bill!

I train a guy who legally immigrated here from mexico,he is honest,hardworking,and wants to be viewed as an American only.He is trying his best to learn English and has came a long way in a short time,works 6 days a week,pays taxes,feeds his own family,trying to pay his own way through college,and when others ask him what his nationality is,he makes it a very clear point (though in a bit of broken english haha) I AM AMERICAN! I have tried helping him out a few times but he will not allow it,he has always responded "if i cannot get it on my own i will do without."

Would be very nice if most in this country shared his attitude,if so most would actually have something!Many citizens who were born here though keep that hand out as if they are owed gov money and they are owed respect just because of who they are.Sorry but a good way of life and respect are earned not given.

Most organisations also reward that type of employee with promotions etc. He'll no doubt go far at your place or if not there somewhere else.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Br Cornelius

Actually, you only mean that second sentence. The rest is a question. And no, it is not factually incorrect.

Yes, wages have been pitiful in just the last 5 years but on average they are still rising. Pitifully so but still rising. That's not the fault of the wealthy. That's the fault of a government trying to impose Socialism. Except for the Reagan boom, that has been the case since Johnson. Under the Republican Presidents since Johnson, I get a little better off, but during a Democrat's Admin, I lose all those gains and during a Democrat's second term, I lose my job. So I'm sweating things out right now.

Because of QE3, credit is plentiful, rates are low. People lost their homes because they couldn't pay the mortgage and the government forced banks to go against their natures to give out risky loans. Anyone unwise and irresponsible enough to "maintain the illusion of being more prosperous" earned their ruin.

Of course much of it gravitates to the top. That is the mechanics. That is how it is suppose to work. The rich get richer but so do the poor. Maybe not as fast as the rich but by the same token, the poor can't just sit there waiting for their pocketbook to grow. They have to put some effort into it. How 'bout answering the question of where do the American poor sit compared to the rest of the world? Our poor can afford anything from shoes to cell phones while the world's poor struggles for a grain of rice.

Not everybody needs to be a business leader, but if you want to be successful, you need some understanding of how business works. That's the reality. If you are so concerned with wealth, you will become a business leader. Most people just like to work hard and raise a family. They aren't going to build great wealth but they will be able to give their children a step up, giving them an opportunity to go on and do better.

I'd ask why? Well, not really. The why is obvious. Between a government over taxing the wealthy and the unions overstating a worker's value, you seriously think that one doesn't know why jobs go overseas? If it were me, I'd cut taxes and pay workers what they are worth for the job they are in. And I'd let the market drive what that price is. If you don't like that salary, then you are welcome to move on and start your own business. You can take the risk.

Then you find the youth of those that it was built on and build it anew with a stronger free market.

I think I have. That's more than you have ever done. I'm not praising the lucky few (as you put it). I think all Americans are the lucky few. But I do praise that we live in a nation that opportunity is still there. Opportunity is what breeds success.

To quote;

Lisa Shalett of Merrill Lynch Wealth Management, found that,real average hourly earnings in the US "are essentially flat to down, with today’s inflation-adjusted wage equating to about the same level as that attained by workers in 1970", despite the fact that "for the last two decades and especially in the current period", productivity has "soared". The benefits of productivity during this cycle had gone "almost exclusively to corporations and their very top executives."[73]

http://en.wikipedia....Wage_inequality

If America is anything like the UK or Ireland - no amount of quantitative easing has made its way into the pockets of the average jo, its harder to get credit now than it has been for 40years - despite the banks been flooded with free credit. The banks have used the money to prop up their balance sheets and invest in the stock market - with the consequence that the markets are inflating back up into a new credit fuelled unsustainable bubble.

If you can be wrong about such a fundamental fact, what else are you wrong about.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Br Cornelius

Why get so angry if I'm wrong?

People are encouraged to seek the skills needed for society to work. Again, the UK and the US have the highest social mobility of any developed country. Nobody is preventing you getting anywhere or forcing you to live a deprived lifestyle.

A decent standard of living is acquirable for all of our people and you most certainly dont need to be a CEO or millionarie to enjoy that. You sound like you need a faith healer.

Did we not establish that they had some of the lowest social mobility ?

You will tend to p*** people off if you assume that everyone shares your own assumptions and aspirations and are jealous of what you have.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
CrimsonKing

People are encouraged to seek the skills needed for society to work. Again, the UK and the US have the highest social mobility of any developed country. Nobody is preventing you getting anywhere or forcing you to live a deprived lifestyle.

A decent standard of living is acquirable for all of our people and you most certainly dont need to be a CEO or millionarie to enjoy that.

:tu::tu:

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Right Wing

Did we not establish that they had some of the lowest social mobility ?

You will tend to p*** people off if you assume that everyone shares your own assumptions.

Br Cornelius

No we established the UK and US as having the highest social mobility.

When we breakdown that we find one part of our demographic makeup has very low social mobility. The part that lack skilled parents to which I indicated negative parents have a habit of passing on negative mindsets to their children.

You live in a state where anything is possible. If you put the hard work in you could gain an olympic medal, get a docturate, be a wealthy director or even get yourself elected as an MP. The state is not closed door to people of low social standing.

My advice is to zip-it, pick something you're interested in and go out and raise yourself. You'll end up getting somewhere.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Br Cornelius

So if you have rich parents you can move up the social ladder - thats a very very strange definition of social mobility, and not what the article indicated.

Br Cornelius

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Br Cornelius

No we established the UK and US as having the highest social mobility.

When we breakdown that we find one part of our demographic makeup has very low social mobility. The part that lack skilled parents to which I indicated negative parents have a habit of passing on negative mindsets to their children.

You live in a state where anything is possible. If you put the hard work in you could gain an olympic medal, get a docturate, be a wealthy director or even get yourself elected as an MP. The state is not closed door to people of low social standing.

My advice is to zip-it, pick something you're interested in and go out and raise yourself. You'll end up getting somewhere.

I advice you to keep your opinion and advice in your head where it belongs. You are repeating the assumption (wrongly) that I am not exactly where I want to be.

Do not confuse dissatisfaction with a dysfunctional social order with personal dissatisfaction with what I have achieved in life.

You simply are revealing your own shelfish motives rather than anything about me.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Right Wing

So if you have rich parents you can move up the social ladder - thats a very very strange definition of social mobility, and not what the article indicated.

Br Cornelius

Dont distort things.

If you have the right mentality then you can move up the social ladder regardless of how much money you have. I suspect you gain something else from maintaining your perceptions. Maybe you like being a victim? Maybe it prevents you having to admit your own responsibility towards your own success?

Edited by Giant Killer B
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Br Cornelius

Dont distort things.

If you have the right mentality then you can move up the social ladder regardless of how much money you have. I suspect you gain something else from maintaining your perceptions. Maybe you like being a victim? Maybe it prevents you having to admit your own responsibility towards your own success?

Psychobabbling me :clap:

You have me entirely wrong - i do not share your desire to move on up - I am up and always have been.

I own everything I need and have no debt to my name - I achieved this through my own hard work.

If you project onto others your own passions - you get things wrong - always.

Br Cornelius

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Right Wing

Psychobabbling me :clap:

You have me entirely wrong - i do not share your desire to move on up - I am up and always have been.

I own everything I need and have no debt to my name - I achieved this through my own hard work.

If you project onto others your own passions - you get things wrong - always.

Br Cornelius

Somehow I dont believe you lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Br Cornelius

Somehow I dont believe you lol.

believe what you like. Belief is free and doesn't have to be based on anything, so feel free to indulge yourself - its all projection from your dissatisfied mind as far as I am concerned.

Br Cornelius

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Right Wing

believe what you like. Belief is free and doesn't have to be based on anything, so feel free to indulge yourself - its all projection from your dissatisfied mind as far as I am concerned.

Br Cornelius

Your ability to deflect is impressive.

Oh well, theres always the chance you might win the Euromillions tomorrow night lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Br Cornelius

Your ability to deflect is impressive.

Oh well, theres always the chance you might win the Euromillions tomorrow night lol.

Delusional.

Do you own you own house and lands outright, do you have a healthy happy family, have you paid off your education bills, do you have reliable transport. I live in one of the most unspoilt corners of Europe with clean air and water. I am here because its exactly where I want to be doing exactly what I want to be doing.

As I said - do not assume I want for anything and that I haven't achieved what I have through my own efforts.

What do you want that you don't already have ?

It is wrong to assume that others share your passions and needs and wants, and it basically sums up what is wrong with your philosophy about the economy and America in particular. You bought the dream - lock stock and barrel - you are welcome to it and I hope it makes you happy.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Right Wing

Delusional.

Do you own you own house and lands outright, do you have a healthy happy family, have you paid off your education bills, do you have reliable transport. I live in one of the most unspoilt corners of Europe with clean air and water. I am here because its exactly where I want to be doing exactly what I want to be doing.

As I said - do not assume I want for anything and that I haven't achieved what I have through my own efforts.

What do you want that you don't already have ?

Br Cornelius

I'm not materialistic. It really wont bother me if I lost everything or if I won the Euromillions.

I'm one of those who search for a higher meaning in life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Br Cornelius

I'm not materialistic. It really wont bother me if I lost everything or if I won the Euromillions.

I'm one of those who search for a higher meaning in life.

And now I don't believe you lol.

Br Cornelius

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Right Wing

And now I don't believe you lol.

Br Cornelius

Why?

I've no poor issues as I've never been poor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sundew

Having run a business I find this whole discussion interesting. You put up your capital with no guarantee of a profit, you work 6 sometimes 7 days a week for 8, 10, or 12 hours. You get phones calls in the middle of the night which employees don't show or the electric or plumbing goes haywire. The dishonest among your employees find every conceivable way to steal one can think of, they steal food, or liquor or tools or time, they hide in closets and sleep, they come in reeking of alcohol or marijuana. In the days when you could have perspective employees checked out, you might find one has a rap sheet a yard long, or was recently arrested for prostitution. Then if you're luck at the end of the year you show a bit of profit. One year was so bad the business made under $100.00, after salaries.

Then you pay, city, county, state and federal taxes, you have various mandates from on high that you must spend capital upon; limited captial. Sadly I can't print my own money. And your tax dollars go to things like: treadmills for shrimp, studies on the sex lives of snails, one of then newer ones: studying why lesbians women are overweight (no lie) to the tune of $778 THOUSAND dollars, and so forth and so on. And still government spends more, and more and yet more. I saw today that the city of Winona (Minnesota I believe) is going to start taxing....rainwater that falls on your property to pay for their storm water system. Can taxing the air and sex be far behind?

So after all the headaches we dropped out of business and sold it. It has been a struggle for the buyers since the wonderful years of Obama have come upon us. Frankly I'm not sure how they are surviving. I could go on about the housing bubble fostered upon our banking system by Frank and Dodd forcing them to give loans to the unqualified (it's all out of fairness you see) and how that hits your pocketbook, your savings, your retirement (if you have any of these left). How governments continued unabashed spending is driving up the cost of gasoline, food, construction materials, etc, the beginnings of inflation. How as Neil Boortz (summing up Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged) once put it, we now have three classes of people in our country. The Producers, those who make things or provide services and provide the engine of capital and the brainpower and entrepreneurial spirit that drives our economy. The Looters, those in governmental authority who increasingly go the the Producers as if they are the never ending goose laying golden eggs, who may earning a living increasing difficult while added constantly to the tax and regulatory burden and who ingratiate themselves to the third class of people, the Moochers, who live off the government teat and disparage the very Producer who willing or not, support them. It reminds me of Proverbs 30:15: "The leech has two daughters. 'Give! Give!' they cry."

But rather than be depressed I would like to go out on a musical note. Hit it, John, Paul, George and Ringo.....

Let me tell you how it will be

There's one for you, nineteen for me

'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

Should five per cent appear too small

Be thankful I don't take it all

'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman

If you drive a car, I'll tax the street,

If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat.

If you get too cold I'll tax the heat,

If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet.

Don't ask me what I want it for

If you don't want to pay some more

'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

Now my advice for those who die

Declare the pennies on your eyes

'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

And you're working for no one but me.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sundew

BTW, if you haven't read Altas Shrugged by Ayn Rand you might want to. Wealth distribution run amok.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Br Cornelius

BTW, if you haven't read Altas Shrugged by Ayn Rand you might want to. Wealth distribution run amok.

The Neo_liberal Bible, think I'll give it a miss.

Br Cornelius

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
F3SS

If America fails to solve its wealth inequality crisis I guarantee that you will be plunged into civiil unrest the like of which you have never seen before.

Br Cornelius

That's so OWS and nothing happened. It fizzled out like a cheap sparkler.

More than one socialist here, possibly you, has told me in the past that we should look to Sweden or maybe it was Switzerland as an example of the greatness that is socialism. The selling point was the amount of billionaires and millionaires who live there in an effort to condemn my point that socialism will run a countries people broke. So I'll ask you, why are the rich in those countries something to admire and the ones here are something to loathe? Why is their wealth accumulation on the moral high ground?

I wouldn't stand up for any one of them, but this is classic blaming the victim for his circumstances. Its a right wing play which allows them to take no responsibility for the state of the nation and their part in how it got that way. Do you not think that when the jobs were there, every one of them was just an average Jo working to put bread on the table. The jobs flew away because it was cheaper to get the work done in China. Result , an underclass and a permanently broken society. I blame the people who took the work away.

Br Cornelius

The jobs flew away when people who think like you got into government and made the cost of doing business and production too expensive to be competitive.

Damn right I take no responsibility for how these so called victims ended up where they are. I don't know them and I don't owe them.

I've hired these victims before. Funny who you'll find when you run help wanted ads in areas close to the city.

Victim #1: Fell asleep the first day on the job. I kept him for about two or three weeks. If somebody wasn't right next to him all day he'd forget what he was doing and whatever, he needed a babysitter. He wasn't making me any money and I didn't owe him any favors so adios. Dumbass had FIVE kids and wasn't shy about getting 'dat check from the government. Working for me or not I am paying for his family either way and likely still am.

Victim #2: Called me about the ad which clearly said 'must have valid license and vehicle'. I confirmed with him over the phone that he had those things. He shows up in a busted up car with a half assed installed side mirror. I asked him what the deal was and he said it's his girlfriends car that he wrecked after they got in a fight and the stupid mirror came from another car from which he stole the mirror in an effort to disguise his screw up from her. Needless to say I was less than impressed. I asked him for his license so I could copy it for employee paperwork. He tells me then that he don't have one. It's suspended. Well he was there and I had work scheduled so I decided what the hell. Maybe he can work. 1st day went ok. Second day he showed up. Went ok. That night he called off with some bullsht story about his grandma and said he would call in the morning with an update. I already knew I was done with him. Completely screwed my plans and calls off on the third day. He didn't call until the next evening. I said it isn't going to work and met up with him to pay him and gave him almost twice as much in cash as I should've. But it was good riddance don't bother me again money. He acted disappointed and said he thought he showed me a lot, as in effort and work ethic. I shook my head and left.

There have been others but you know what man? These people have made their own bed. Maybe it's their parents fault but it isn't societies and it certainly isn't mine. I tried to help but they weren't worth my time or even minimum wage though I paid them more.

My position on Neo-Liberalism is based on evidence.

My position on the underclass is just plain old vanilla common sense. Also I had the privilage of living through Margaret Thatchers revolution and not getting suckered into morgaging my life away.

You don't have to sympathize with a criminal to understand why he might have chosen his path in life, and that it probably wasn't want he wanted out of life.

Br Cornelius

Common sense can be very subjective. Charles Manson thought the coming race war which would lead to a black victory and black president which would lead to such disaster that the nation would beg for a white man to lead again who happened to be Charles Manson was plain old vanilla common sense too.

People are only victims if they want to be, in the context of this conversation that is. There is nothing and no one stopping them from doing something different and better or even great. I have a close friend who I grew up with who is beginning to think like you more and more. While he does take responsibility for his circumstances he has no problem thinking of ways that 'the system' has held him or is holding him back. He bought into the OWS farce and converted to an Obama supporter. He despises the rich. To make a long story short he comes up with all this nonsense yet plays call of duty for hours at a time after work. Nothing wrong with that but if that's what you're going to do don't cry the blues when you're not showered with good fortune. He works hard and is a good dad but its not the system that's holding him back from whatever it is he feels he should or should have achieved by now.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.