ET Body - Long Arms

[seeder]

Look at the 'saws' or 'harpoons' these New Caledonian crows made:

(click to enlarge)

the crows have invisibility cloaking too ! Try getting a piccy and they vanish..

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Edited April 12, 2013 by seeder

[Abramelin]

What the...

http://science.org.a...gray/Slide5.jpg

OK, this sucks.

Wait a sec.

http://science.org.au/events/sats/sats2007/images/gray/Slide5.JPG

.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Abramelin

[seeder]

Wthat the...

http://science.org.a...gray/Slide5.jpg

OK, this sucks.

Wait a sec.

.

dead link, UK anyway on firefox.. (problem loading page)

[seeder]

Wthat the...

http://science.org.a...gray/Slide5.jpg

OK, this sucks.

Wait a sec.

http://science.org.au/events/sats/sats2007/images/gray/Slide5.JPG

.

same...nada to see.

[Abramelin]

[Abramelin]

same...nada to see.

You need to copy the url and paste it into your browser. It works with FF and IE.

But I already uploaded it to Photobucket, as you can see in my former post.

.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

And about being able to manipulate things: has anyone ever thought of spiders?

[lightly]

Sure.. spiders, birds, bees, ants , all can manipulate and build things.

[Esoteric Toad]

Other animals being able to use tools does not necessarily make a good analogy to aliens abilities. If octopus, various primates, sea mammals and some birds use tools they could still be at the end of their evolutionary 'path'. If evolution works as we believe it does the animals mentioned would have to have some sort of impetus to evolve beyond their current abilities. If that does not occur they would continue to behave as they are now for eternity...there would be no need for them to change since they are able to feed and reproduce as they are now. Perhaps if there were a mutation that would further that it would proceed beyond their current abilities but that can work against them too (competition).

Seeder, you posted a pic of a spider. I got a kick out of the always in the bathroom statement. Here in Florida there were always spiders ending up in the bath tub. They were a bit different: Their legs span about the size of my hand.

Used to freak me out. I have this thing were I will not kill a spider but I could not bring myself to rescue these things...always had someone else do it for me. Yeah I am a guy....but I have a few phobias, so there. They do not build webs, they leap on their prey and they are fast. Freaky buggers.

edited to add: JMO

Edited April 12, 2013 by Esoteric Toad

[Abramelin]

Meet ze alienz:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salticidae

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mopsus_%28genus%29

A bit about their intelligence and way of life:

http://awesomerthanthou.blogspot.nl/2009/09/other-invertebrate-intelligence.html

http://ktcatspost.blogspot.nl/2009/02/on-spider-intelligence.html

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/wolf-spider-facts.html

[Abramelin]

Other animals being able to use tools does not necessarily make a good analogy to aliens abilities. If octopus, various primates, sea mammals and some birds use tools they could still be at the end of their evolutionary 'path'. If evolution works as we believe it does the animals mentioned would have to have some sort of impetus to evolve beyond their current abilities. If that does not occur they would continue to behave as they are now for eternity...there would be no need for them to change since they are able to feed and reproduce as they are now. Perhaps if there were a mutation that would further that it would proceed beyond their current abilities but that can work against them too (competition).

Seeder, you posted a pic of a spider. I got a kick out of the always in the bathroom statement. Here in Florida there were always spiders ending up in the bath tub. They were a bit different: Their legs span about the size of my hand.

Used to freak me out. I have this thing were I will not kill a spider but I could not bring myself to rescue these things...always had someone else do it for me. Yeah I am a guy....but I have a few phobias, so there. They do not build webs, they leap on their prey and they are fast. Freaky buggers.

Like I said, the cephalopods and birds were just example of intelligent animals that are not bipedal and don't have hands. Who knows how similar built animals would evolve on other planets?

[Esoteric Toad]

Like I said, the cephalopods and birds were just example of intelligent animals that are not bipedal and don't have hands. Who knows how similar built animals would evolve on other planets?

Oh I definitely agree. I think the likeliness that aliens would look remotely us is an extreme long shot. I think symmetry would be universal, but there is no way I, nor anyone else, can be certain. If an alien race were advanced enough they could manipulate their bodies for specific tasks (A Mote in Gods Eye book goes into this, sci-fi, mind you). Who knows? I am of the mind that they haven't been here if they even exist with certainty.

JMO

[seeder]

but i think we would need to go back to our old ways if we're smart enough.... yes, we have reached the top of the food chain, but what we are eating isn't food anymore, well, most part of it... it would seem that we are manipulating the environment to suit us, but is it really like that? from a genetic perspective we haven't even been able to incorporate the lifestyle changes, environmental factors, food, etc. which were introduced since the neolithic age, leave alone what we're conditioning our genetics to since the food processing era... biological evolution works much much slower than our current progress i'm afraid

i think we need to find out whether we're getting smarter or not, technologically for sure, but how does the overall picture show? generally speaking on the average i think we're going downhill; jmo... will technology save us in the end? maybe social darwinism will paint a different landscape, idk... but how would natural selection work in that case i.e. forwarding the best genes that is? surely the rich will not have all of them? then the question comes around whether 'nature' is in control of our evolutionary destiny or is it just some random gamble... meh... i don't know about this, but have we found any mutations which lead to the industrial revolution? people are getting smaller and shorter, we are already having extra teeth, smaller jaws & the average woman will not be sufficiently sized to give birth to larger heads / brains in the future... meh, ok, enough with the rant...

I dont think 'we' are getting smarter at all. Technology sure is, but I think in a lot of ways it dumbs us down. When I was young at school we did arithmetic the hard way, on paper...as I was leaving school at 16, they had in the last couple of years allowed calculators to be used...

Personally, when people talk about forgotten ancient knowledge, well theres a lot we are in danger of forgetting today. Again when I was younger (60's), boys/men went to work or were expected too, and women were home makers, cooking, sewing clothes, ok not for a living but I mean mothers passed on these basic skills..

(Pls dont anyone say the words sexist or gender specific roles, it was they way it was!)

Now have a look at any housing estate in the UK, teenaged mothers who haven't even lived before getting pregnant, and lots have no skills acquired from their own mothers... who shop for packet food and dont know the simple joys of cooking from scratch. What info are they passing on to their kids?

We used to have apprenticeships, you went into and learned a trade for a few years and were set for life...now kids leave school without a thought for a career. (some, not all is fair to say)

And Ive made this point elsewhere, but up until the arrival of mobile phones and their memory, I would know off by heart at least a dozen phone numbers and could recall them instantly.

Now I have no need to remember anyones number except my own...and I literally cant remember phone numbers, ok I can with practice and need, but I have no 'need' if my phone does it for me!

On your last point, I thought we were getting bigger as a species? In Greenwich UK, some old houses near the docks have doors that seem too small, and many houses show this

Some links

Humans 'still evolving'

http://www.independe...ng-7697808.html

5 Signs Humans Are Still Evolving

http://mentalfloss.c...-still-evolving

edit to add: There have even been stories in the UK papers, of kids nowadays having trouble writing for any length of time too, why, because now even from an early age kids are sat in front of screens and keyboards.... imagine a time when a pen is an antique item of fun....but cannot be used?

.

Edited April 12, 2013 by seeder

[seeder]

Seeder, you posted a pic of a spider. I got a kick out of the always in the bathroom statement. Here in Florida there were always spiders ending up in the bath tub. They were a bit different: Their legs span about the size of my hand.

Used to freak me out. I have this thing were I will not kill a spider but I could not bring myself to rescue these things...always had someone else do it for me. Yeah I am a guy....but I have a few phobias, so there. They do not build webs, they leap on their prey and they are fast. Freaky buggers.

edited to add: JMO

Yeh funny how they like bathrooms isnt it, not a lot of food in mine for them tho, unless you count whatever skin cells I lose in the shower! I hate spiders, my old man once held his hand out saying he'd found a big marble in the garden, (I was always losing marbles), when I held my hand out for it he dropped a huge brown garden spider in my hands, and they are ugly fast things, nothing like house spiders, it ran up my arm and then where I will never know, as I wasnt standing still to find out. Think I yelled so loud the whole street heard it!

Garden Spider

(Parents do NOT give your child lifelong phobias for a momentary laugh pls)

[bison]

Saying that humanoids may arise independently on other worlds is not the same as saying that they must arise in every case. Other, radically different forms of highly intelligent life, even capable of continuing technological development, may exist.

But for an asteroid impact and super-volcanoes in India 65 million years ago, some dinosaurs might have evolved into a bipedal, technological race. The further development of mammals could have been suppressed.

The humanoid form is relatively unspecialized, compared to most animals on this planet. This seems to offer a particular flexibility in behavior, and learning, which facilitates the continuing development of technology.

We may see many humanoid extraterrestrials because we, as humanoids, are the most interesting to them.

[seeder]

Oh I definitely agree. I think the likeliness that aliens would look remotely us is an extreme long shot. I think symmetry would be universal, but there is no way I, nor anyone else, can be certain. If an alien race were advanced enough they could manipulate their bodies for specific tasks (A Mote in Gods Eye book goes into this, sci-fi, mind you). Who knows? I am of the mind that they haven't been here if they even exist with certainty.

JMO

Out of all my ramblings thru info on the net, along with a general age where Ive thought about a lot of things, I can never quite get my head around an alien race that can manipulate their environment or anything else, on a mental level. Like having telepathy, telekinesis etc, I think that is perhaps unlikely, tho when it comes down to aliens we can rule nothing out. I think if they do exist or have existed, then to be the top of the food chain and build stuff as simple as homes or as complex as starships...that it will be done manually, and for that, it comes back down to be somewhat humanoid in appearance. Or at least having limbs and some form of hands to be able to create finer things

Manually doesn't mean in this example 'all by hand' either, today we have assembly line robots build cars... but before any of that could happen, man, his physical shape and intelligence, first had to master a million other skills the hard way

[seeder]

Saying that humanoids may arise independently on other worlds is not the same as saying that they must arise in every case. Other, radically different forms of highly intelligent life, even capable of continuing technological development, may exist.

But for an asteroid impact and super-volcanoes in India 65 million years ago, some dinosaurs might have evolved into a bipedal, technological race. The further development of mammals could have been suppressed.

The humanoid form is relatively unspecialized, compared to most animals on this planet. This seems to offer a particular flexibility in behavior, and learning, which facilitates the continuing development of technology.

We may see many humanoid extraterrestrials because we, as humanoids, are the most interesting to them.

I must say I cannot really disagree with much you say. I don't know about others, but if advanced aliens were humanoid in appearance, as we are, then might that indicate that the humanoid form is perhaps the best model ? Or perhaps, if they are only partially humanoid, would that indicate possibly how we will end up?

Heres an interesting read with 4 sections, thers a lot if info but you can skim read each heading:

PREDICTION ONE

Human Evolution Is Dead

PREDICTION TWO

Humans Will Continue to Evolve

PREDICTION THREE

Humans to Achieve Electronic Immortality

PREDICTION FOUR

New Era of Evolution Awaits on Off-World Colonies?

http://news.national...-evolution.html

and here I paste just one paragraph but again, the whole page is good reading:

New mutations. Until recently, anthropologists thought that human evolution had slowed down. But last December, Hawks reported that it has actually accelerated 100-fold in the past 5,000 to 10,000 years. He figured that out by comparing chunks of DNA among 269 people from around the world. Over time, DNA accumulates random mutations, just as the front of a white T-shirt tends to accumulate spots. The bigger the chunks of DNA without random spots, the more recently it had been minted. Using this system, Hawks concluded that recent genetic changes account for about 7 percent of the human genome. Much of the increase, he says, has been fueled by the growth of the world's population, which has expanded by a factor of 1,000 over the past 10,000 years. Having more people increases the odds of mutations.

http://www.usnews.co...olution-heading

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Edited April 12, 2013 by seeder

[S2F]

And about being able to manipulate things: has anyone ever thought of spiders?

Psyche and I had a brief discussion about spiders being a decent design for environmental manipulation in a different thread a while back. I think they are a decent contender as an alternative to the anthropomorphic model. Psyche made some good points against it however I still think it is a fair possibility.

The way I see it is that we design tools and technology to fit our hands/body. If an intelligent alien would have say, a beak like a bird as their primary means of manipulation then they would design tools that would compliment that appendage form. That is a bit of an oversimplification but we can see all kinds of appendages that can manipulate the environment, not just hands. Things like beaks, claws, hooks, suckers etc. etc.

[seeder]

Psyche and I had a brief discussion about spiders being a decent design for environmental manipulation in a different thread a while back. I think they are a decent contender as an alternative to the anthropomorphic model. Psyche made some good points against it however I still think it is a fair possibility.

The way I see it is that we design tools and technology to fit our hands/body. If an intelligent alien would have say, a beak like a bird as their primary means of manipulation then they would design tools that would compliment that appendage form. That is a bit of an oversimplification but we can see all kinds of appendages that can manipulate the environment, not just hands. Things like beaks, claws, hooks, suckers etc. etc.

sheesh, imagine a planet full of smart BIG spiders, eeww ! Yes I do see your point about spiders, even with Abes Octopi, but then, when we review historical and alleged encounters with aliens, most will give descriptions of humanoids, if there's any truth to their stories at all - which Im highly skeptical of.

Or does anyone know of any encounter with non humanoid looking entities?

[Sweetpumper]

sheesh, imagine a planet full of smart BIG spiders, eeww !

Starship Troopers.

[S2F]

sheesh, imagine a planet full of smart BIG spiders, eeww ! Yes I do see your point about spiders, even with Abes Octopi, but then, when we review historical and alleged encounters with aliens, most will give descriptions of humanoids, if there's any truth to their stories at all - which Im highly skeptical of.

Or does anyone know of any encounter with non humanoid looking entities?

[seeder]

Starship Troopers.

Of course! How could I forget! But they weren't smart spiders were they as in having the ability to traverse the universe? (Could be wrong been an absolute age since I last saw that film!)

[Abramelin]

Back to 'alien bird-like species', lol.

The next are two quotes from a "what-if?" site, but apparently there are those who consider birds to be a promising species.... if only...

Still, birds dominate the region--and gigantism rules. Parrots, cockatoos, macaws and White Mediterranean ravens (black feathers were just too hot in these steamy lands), are the most intriguing. Weighing many kilos and with wingspans of 3-4 meters (10-13'), these escapees from the flight-weight restrictions of our world have had millions of years to do what dolphins and apes did: let social competition run rampant, favoring larger and larger brains. Language and tool use follow.

Map of the Mediterranean Abyss, a deep rift with salt lakes, on Shiveria, an alternate Earth.

Avian civilizations, some multispecific, some perhaps incorporating flying mammals as well, can be found in every basin of the Abyss; with winged travel, innovations would spread quickly compared to human prehistoric diffusion. Purely because it's an air-pressure oasis, like the Hellas Basin on Mars, the Abyss could well become the cultural and technological hub of the world.

Yet except for the Aegean and Black Sea Abysses, the Red Sea Rift, and perhaps the eastern Caspian, the fliers could not easily spread. For above sea level, megabirds or large flying mammals will find the air exhaustingly thin. Grounded! With their hand-feet pre-empted for walking, unable to handle weapons and tools, birds would be especially vulnerable. Outside the Abyss, intelligent nonflying bipeds have a clear advantage: free hands. Unless, of course, the more sophisticated birds tamed our ancestors and, early on, made them partners or servants--handymen! Division of labor might be along species not gender lines, and be as taken for granted.

In sum: whether Abyssal culture is avian, mammalian or hybrid, it will arise early, yet stay close to home. But even though megabirds themselves can't easily spread, their ideas, tools and reputation will. On Shiveria, even among peoples half the world away from Etna's fiery plume, "bird brain" will be a compliment.

http://www.worlddrea.../S/SHIVERIA.HTM

The largest impact basin in the Solar System, Hellas was so deep that it was the only place on Mars where liquid water could survive on the surface, even before terraforming. Now the Hellas Sea is most earthlike place on Mars, with an air-pressure much higher than at (northern) sea level. This has profound implications--Hellas is between 30 and 60 degrees south, yet it's as mild as the Martian tropics. Indeed, plants grow here that won't at the equator, for the air blocks more ultraviolet. Flying here will also be the easiest on Mars, a fact not only exploited by humans with strap-on (or gengineered) wings, but by mega-parrots, who, removed from the constraints of Earth gravity, will quadruple in size--including brains, of course! The most vocal animals on Earth will become the most vocal people on Mars. Does this seem extreme? Let me remind you that recent testing suggests Terran parrots and ravens are already as intelligent as apes, and that chimps (with a third our brain capacity) are already making stone tools. Under Martian conditions, megaparrots with less than human-level intelligence would be the surprise. The real question is whether they'll merely be our equals, or smarter than us.

http://www.worlddrea.../M/MRZHELLA.HTM

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Edited April 12, 2013 by Abramelin

[bison]

I agree that the humanoid form is a good one, in many respects. 'Best' is much more difficult to say. Perhaps when we have a clearer picture of the forms that intelligent life in the universe takes, we will be better equipped to say. I suspect that there could be a diversity of such forms, and that our current limited knowledge may make it difficult for us to to conceive what these forms would be or how they would function.

It's apparently true that certain types of genetic evolution are no longer as important, or as possible as they once were, given the way the world's peoples have been, and are becoming connected. Psychological, cultural, and even technological selection factors are probably of greater importance in modern evolution, and will become even more so in the future. Survival of the fittest still holds, I believe, its just that what determines fitness is changing. Brains seem gradually to winning out over brawn.

[Abramelin]

Starship Troopers.

Maybe I missed an episode, but I haven't seen any spiders in Starship Troopers.