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Ex-Prime Minister Baroness Thatcher dies


Daughter of the Nine Moons
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I'm not having a dig at you specifically here...but I do kind of resent the idea that physical work is not the same as mentally challenging work...it's somehow harder to do physical work. I chose to do physical work, I could have gone to work in an office, perfectly capable of learning new skills or applying my brain to any area I chose....I chose to do physical work simply because I like getting my hands dirty, I like building things, dismantling things...seeing my days work in front of me when I finish. I can't stand being stuck in an office (soul destroying for me)....I trained as a bricky when I first left school, then moved into warehousing and forklift work as the recession of the early nineties hit...i've been in engineering, and now transport...I love it, I love a days proper work (not insulting office workers there)...i'm not better or more deserving because my muscles ache at the end of the day....similarly I don't look at office workers with envy, I feel sorry for them as I hated it....

Not all of us manual workers are looking at others thinking "if only"....brickies, sparkies, groundworkers etc....we earn good money when we want too ;)

Exactly, I'm an architect and I can say without doubt the best combination is a brickie or construction worker with a brain. :tu: They make the job run so much more smoothly.

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Probably because we live in an age where intelligence is prized above brute strength. As itsnotouthere has said, they worked hard to get where they are and made sensible choices. The majority of manual labourers chose not too.

Sensible choices! lol actaully, that's hardly worth a reply...

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I can understand why you might think that but you're talking to someone who was a milkboy that also worked in the dairy from the age of 14 (extremely hard work), then became a roadworker straight from school (16) for over half a decade (going on to work in building sites on and off for years) - and now I'm doing a degree in software development, because there's just no comparison between hard labour and office work. No comparison between mentally draining work and physically draining work.

Unless someone is mentally challenged, then academia is a cakewalk compared to physical work (and even if they are mentally challenged? My brother aint the brightest spark but is on the verge of his second degree). This is from personal experience. I'm not saying that a career such as you suggest doesn't take a lot of commitment and effort, but studying is nowhere near hard work. And considering the average mark for university students finishing a degree is between 60 and 70 percent, it's clear that most don't even put in a lot of effort (possibly due to our student culture).

No comparison, and definitely no justification whatsoever for the disparity between the rich and working man.

Not really. The 60-70% average mark just shows how damn hard the work is. It takes a hell of a lot of effort to get more than 70% at uni. And luck a lot of the time.

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Sensible choices! lol actaully, that's hardly worth a reply...

So to work hard and applying yourself is not a sensible choice? Interesting...

Edited by Setton
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Exactly, I'm an architect and I can say without doubt the best combination is a brickie or construction worker with a brain. :tu: They make the job run so much more smoothly.

Also, I haven't met a brickie yet who didn't need an account to do his books at the end of the financial year - not because he couldn't do them, but because he's to busy raking it in lol :tu:

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I'm not having a dig at you specifically here...but I do kind of resent the idea that physical work is not the same as mentally challenging work...it's somehow harder to do physical work. I chose to do physical work, I could have gone to work in an office, perfectly capable of learning new skills or applying my brain to any area I chose....I chose to do physical work simply because I like getting my hands dirty, I like building things, dismantling things...seeing my days work in front of me when I finish. I can't stand being stuck in an office (soul destroying for me)....I trained as a bricky when I first left school, then moved into warehousing and forklift work as the recession of the early nineties hit...i've been in engineering, and now transport...I love it, I love a days proper work (not insulting office workers there)...i'm not better or more deserving because my muscles ache at the end of the day....similarly I don't look at office workers with envy, I feel sorry for them as I hated it....

Not all of us manual workers are looking at others thinking "if only"....brickies, sparkies, groundworkers etc....we earn good money when we want too ;)

Not all of you, but from my experience, most. No sensible person when thinking about it rationally would rather be in a job that will break your back by 50, when they can make more money from sitting in a nice, heated office.

But this is besides my point, my original comparison was between millionaires who get outrageous amounts of money and physical workers who get relative peanuts for working far harder.

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So to work hard and apply yourself is not a sensible choice? Interesting...

You equated intelligence over brute force as being a sensible choice - depends on the character of the person, if I had to sit in an office 5-6 days a week, 9-5, I would slide into depression - you could pay me 500k a year and i'd still hate every minute...

Also 'applying yourself' isn't restricted to mentally challenging work.....although, if you take most construction jobs these days you need to be able to do both anyway ;)

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Not really. The 60-70% average mark just shows how damn hard the work is. It takes a hell of a lot of effort to get more than 70% at uni. And luck a lot of the time.

We'll have to agree to disagree here.

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So I think we are agreed, it's 'horses for courses' as it were.

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Er...spoke too soon. :lol:

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Not all of you, but from my experience, most. No sensible person when thinking about it rationally would rather be in a job that will break your back by 50, when they can make more money from sitting in a nice, heated office.

But this is besides my point, my original comparison was between millionaires who get outrageous amounts of money and physical workers who get relative peanuts for working far harder.

I think you're forgetting one aspect though - with many of these high end jobs, you're never off work. my wife worked at Canary Wharf for the FSA when I met her (no idea how I blagged that one - but that's another story)....she earnt ridiculous money tbh, but never switched off from it....the pressure of it forced her out, she's never worked since - it's not as easy as you think at some of these posts.

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I think you're forgetting one aspect though - with many of these high end jobs, you're never off work. my wife worked at Canary Wharf for the FSA when I met her (no idea how I blagged that one - but that's another story)....she earnt ridiculous money tbh, but never switched off from it....the pressure of it forced her out, she's never worked since - it's not as easy as you think at some of these posts.

Perhaps I'll get my window cleaning buddy to design my next project. :D

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I think you're forgetting one aspect though - with many of these high end jobs, you're never off work. my wife worked at Canary Wharf for the FSA when I met her (no idea how I blagged that one - but that's another story)....she earnt ridiculous money tbh, but never switched off from it....the pressure of it forced her out, she's never worked since - it's not as easy as you think at some of these posts.

As a roadworker I did winter gritting, was on call 24/7 and could work an insane amount of hours every week (essentially I was never off and couldn't relax). Would I then deserve millions?

My point isn't that it's easy to be a millionaire exec, my point is that, much like footballers (who actually work way harder than any other profession that has been mentioned), they don't deserve their wages - don't deserve to make so much more than the 'grunts' who do the harder work. The footballer comparison actually highlights my point I believe. Is there one person in the World who actually thinks that a footballer deserves 50-250 thousand quid a week?

And just so I'm making myself clear, I absolutely loved working on the roads and in other physically demanding jobs (much like yourself). My opinion wasn't formed from some grudge against hard, physical work. I just see the disparity and don't agree with it.

Edited by ExpandMyMind
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You equated intelligence over brute force as being a sensible choice - depends on the character of the person, if I had to sit in an office 5-6 days a week, 9-5, I would slide into depression - you could pay me 500k a year and i'd still hate every minute...

Also 'applying yourself' isn't restricted to mentally challenging work.....although, if you take most construction jobs these days you need to be able to do both anyway ;)

Ah, I see what you mean. Those should have been 2 separate statements.

1. We prize intelligence over brute strength.

2. Those who have done well for themselves, worked at it and made sensible choices. Note: not 'chose to go to uni'. For some people that's not a sensible choice. Say you were terrible at academic subjects at school but excelled in woodwork. Sensible choice: joinery apprenticeship, work hard, maybe eventually run a company. Big money. The majority of people in lower paying, manual jobs - or low paying office jobs now I think about it - just don't put the effort in.

We'll have to agree to disagree here.

Yep, don't take it from a current student or anything...

ETA: Nice avatar though. You plainly have good taste :P

Edited by Setton
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The footballer comparison actually highlights my point I believe. Is there one person in the World who actually thinks that a footballer deserves 50-250 thousand quid a week?

I'm sure the footballers genuinely do think they deserve that much :P

As a side note, my worst nightmare is working in an office.

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Yep, don't take it from a current student or anything...

ETA: Nice avatar though. You plainly have good taste :P

Haha, yeah. been reading these posts and thinking, 'I don't remember saying that'.

I, too, am a student. Which is why I feel I can post the perspective of both sides of the fence.

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Haha, yeah. been reading these posts and thinking, 'I don't remember saying that'.

I, too, am a student. Which is why I feel I can post the perspective of both sides of the fence.

Same :)

I guess it comes down to where you're studying. Some places will have higher standards than others.

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Perhaps I'll get my window cleaning buddy to design my next project. :D

He might surprise you - if only for the amount of windows he manages to fit into the design :D

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As a roadworker I did winter gritting, was on call 24/7 and could work an insane amount of hours every week (essentially I was never off and couldn't relax). Would I then deserve millions?

My point isn't that it's easy to be a millionaire exec, my point is that, much like footballers (who actually work way harder than any other profession that has been mentioned), they don't deserve their wages - don't deserve to make so much more than the 'grunts' who do the harder work. The footballer comparison actually highlights my point I believe. Is there one person in the World who actually thinks that a footballer deserves 50-250 thousand quid a week?

And just so I'm making myself clear, I absolutely loved working on the roads and in other physically demanding jobs (much like yourself). My opinion wasn't formed from some grudge against hard, physical work. I just see the disparity and don't agree with it.

I do see your point Ex :tu: ....I think my view comes from the fact I see mental strain as being more detrimental then aching bones....but having said that I guess i'd have to concede that that mental strain can also come from menial work that destroys you physically, as the knock on effect is equally debilitating... :)

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As a roadworker I did winter gritting, was on call 24/7 and could work an insane amount of hours every week (essentially I was never off and couldn't relax). Would I then deserve millions?

My point isn't that it's easy to be a millionaire exec, my point is that, much like footballers (who actually work way harder than any other profession that has been mentioned), they don't deserve their wages - don't deserve to make so much more than the 'grunts' who do the harder work. The footballer comparison actually highlights my point I believe. Is there one person in the World who actually thinks that a footballer deserves 50-250 thousand quid a week?

And just so I'm making myself clear, I absolutely loved working on the roads and in other physically demanding jobs (much like yourself). My opinion wasn't formed from some grudge against hard, physical work. I just see the disparity and don't agree with it.

Yes, it always brings a wry smile to my face when I hear a news item about a certain football player 'earning 50,000 a week' when what they actually mean is 'paid 50,000 a week'

Being paid something & earning something are two totally different things. I think we can agree on that.

Edited by itsnotoutthere
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Sorry Ex, but that really does come across as the politics of envy. Ever stopped to think that perhaps the person in the office actually studied hard at school, got good grades, went to college or perhaps university & endevoured no matter what to enter the career they strived for.

I'm 50 years of age & the biggest pain in the **** in my classroom while at school, & the guy that made the teachers life an absolute misery & who is obviously the same age as me is a window cleaner and has been since he left school & he knocks on my door every friday night for his £3.50. He had exactly the same choices & chances as me, but he chose not to take them. Me working in an office & him cleaning windows has got nothing to do with 'keeping the wee man down' but everything to do with what choices you make in life.

Well put.

You make it happen it doesnt get handed to you on a plate.

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I think you're forgetting one aspect though - with many of these high end jobs, you're never off work. my wife worked at Canary Wharf for the FSA when I met her (no idea how I blagged that one - but that's another story)....she earnt ridiculous money tbh, but never switched off from it....the pressure of it forced her out, she's never worked since - it's not as easy as you think at some of these posts.

I get the impression they think professionals and management sit around all day drinking coffee and reading the paper.

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As a roadworker I did winter gritting, was on call 24/7 and could work an insane amount of hours every week (essentially I was never off and couldn't relax). Would I then deserve millions?

My point isn't that it's easy to be a millionaire exec, my point is that, much like footballers (who actually work way harder than any other profession that has been mentioned), they don't deserve their wages - don't deserve to make so much more than the 'grunts' who do the harder work. The footballer comparison actually highlights my point I believe. Is there one person in the World who actually thinks that a footballer deserves 50-250 thousand quid a week?

And just so I'm making myself clear, I absolutely loved working on the roads and in other physically demanding jobs (much like yourself). My opinion wasn't formed from some grudge against hard, physical work. I just see the disparity and don't agree with it.

Messi deserves more!

This will make you sick -

I pay my accounts assistants £22,000 per annum

I pay my fully qualified accountants £45,000 per annum

I get £85,000 per annum (finance department manager)

The finance director above me is on £1.2 million per annum (I sign everyones pay off including his)

You should see the cars he turns up to work in.

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Messi deserves more!

This will make you sick -

I pay my accounts assistants £22,000 per annum

I pay my fully qualified accountants £45,000 per annum

I get £85,000 per annum (finance department manager)

The finance director above me is on £1.2 million per annum (I sign everyones pay off including his)

You should see the cars he turns up to work in.

85k a year...

Hello, new best friend :P Unless your boss is on here...

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Messi deserves more!

This will make you sick -

I pay my accounts assistants £22,000 per annum

I pay my fully qualified accountants £45,000 per annum

I get £85,000 per annum (finance department manager)

The finance director above me is on £1.2 million per annum (I sign everyones pay off including his)

You should see the cars he turns up to work in.

Congrats on such a lucrative career.

And for the record, Messi (and maybe Ronaldo) is probably the ONLY player who deserves an unlimited amount of money. Can't put a price on genius like that.

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