Christians and oppression

[White Crane Feather]

I don't think you and I are using the same definition of faith.

You see, the definition I am using means "trust." I do not have a "Cross your fingers and really, really, really tell yourself you believe that God exists," kind of faith. I know God exists, I interact with Him on a daily basis, and I have seen Him do some amazing things in my life and the life of others, I no more have to hope He's real than I have to hope my wife is real. I trust Him completely when He says that Jesus's death on the cross is full and proper payment for my sins. And yet, and yet, if I'm honest I have to admit that I'm not sure I would obey Him if He told me to kill my son. Even if He told me my son would be the father of a great nation, I'm truly not sure I would do it. I admire Abraham's level of trust, I aspire to it, because I am not sure I have it.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm glad you have that bit of restraint. Its just scary that others don't. I believe in a great spirit also, but it's not faith based. You have to understand where I'm comeing from. I dont buy it that many Christians have faith in god at all, I believe they have faith in the bible. To me your inner voice telling you that killing your child is wrong despite what a voice from the sky tells you is closer to god speaking to you than your faith and obidiance.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

No, thank you!

Thank you for making it so clear that you're simply another irrational prejudiced hater.

Really, you have no sense of humour, which is typical of fundamentalists. And my post was simply an observation. The hate is all from you and your bretheren. Any rational person will see this. You and others constantly hoist yourselves on your own petards, yet you seem incapable of seeing how you look to others, or of any self critical faculties. I have faults, I make errors and bad decisions, say to much when I should shut up. But from you and others, nothing but a wall of selfrighteous pomposity and hate.

Let me just make something clear. I have been attacked again and again, and not just here, had posts deliberately mis-quoted, had quotes fabricated, been subjected to insulting PMs. Yet I have not started any of this. Fine, you can find me saying "garbage" to a poster, but then look at the history of posting and look at why I have said garbage, But I know you will not, because you are the "righteous of god" or whatever. What charlatans and liars you are, what pathetic bullies. Christians you call yourselves, many would call you something else, but not wishing to be banned I hold my tounge in the face of intolerable assault from you people. The lot of you are not worth a spit, or my time anymore.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Atentutankh-pasheri

[Michelle]

I still find it very curious that posters who say they are not Christian, or that they are lapsed Christians, agnostics or even atheists, are not slow in rushing to attack any who dare say one unfavourable word against Christianity. I call these people liars, I say they are all Christians, and due to their loudness and blockheaded stance, are probably fundamentalists.

No, we just aren't hypocrites. My husband and the majority of my friends are Christians. I would never talk about them like a dog behind their backs. I don't study their religion, or watch them like a hawk, so I can catch them going against such and such a scripture. I don't spend my life looking for something to be offended about by Christians. I'm open enough to be able to see fundamentalists on both sides and I don't paint everyone with the same broad brush as people are so fond of doing here.

I hold Atheists to higher standard because the pompous, obnoxious ones, who are always looking for a fight, reflect badly on me. I don't want to be associated with them in any way. They are the reason people are wary of non-believers. Some people can't see the forest for the trees.

[Abramelin]

Matthew 5:38: "You have heard it said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I tell you to turn the other cheek."

The eye-for-an-eye part comes from the OT where it is listed in at least three verses. The original idea is in the Code of Hammurabi (1780 BC). The idea is that you will extract ONLY an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. It is a call for justice, not vengeance. Those who use it as an excuse for violence are following neither the Old or the New Testaments (nor even the laws of Babylon), but rather, their own whims.

In Judea, it was customary when insulted or otherwise offended by someone, to strike them. An inferior was struck with the back of the hand, while a superior was struck with the palm. By turning the other cheek, you forced a person who struck you with the back of the hand to admit that you were his superior. It is a non-violent approach, but it is also a very active approach. Peace and justice are active, not passive.

One of the reasons Christians were persecuted in Roman times was their abominable behavior. They burned pagan churches, desecrated sacred groves and disrupted services. They fought with and murdered each other over matters of doctrine. Civil discourse was a rarity. An emperor trying to keep the peace had no choice but to suppress them. Ironically, the emperors who just didn't care about the empire and took no actions against Christians, are remembered by Christians as "good" emperors. Constantine finally threw in the towel and called the Council of Nicea to settle issues of doctrine and restore peace. Issues the bishops could not agree on (like when and where Jesus was born), he settled by decree - that's why we celebrate Christmas on December 25 (Mythra's birthday) and why Mythra's birthplace has a Christian church over the spot (The Church of the Nativity) - pagan revenge. To add to the irony, the Church of the Nativity is administered by two MUSLIM families who were given that task by Suladin.

Constantine did not become a Christian until 337. At the time of his "vision" and the time of the Council of Nicea, he was a pagan and worshipped at the Temple of the Invincible Sun (Many early Christians also worshipped there, conducting services on the buildings step's. Not all Christian/pagan interactions were hostile.).

Above, I asked how many Christians were executed by the Romans: about 2000. I also asked how many Christians were killed by other Christians. About 50,000 in the Albigensian Crusade alone. How many were killed in the 30 Years War, where "Christians" battled "Christians"? Or in the Reformation? Or, or, or ....

Judging Christianity by the way it is practiced, I conclude that it is a death cult, and a very violent one, based on a myth; although, there are a few grains of truth in the myth.

How about Islam? Much the same story, except that the Koran arose from the mind of one man and is thus, a little more consistent, if no more accurate, than the OT and NT.

And now that I have offended both sides of this squabble, I will sign off and await the deluge I have unleashed.

Doug

"Matthew 5:38: "You have heard it said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I tell you to turn the other cheek."

And THAT'S what I am talking about.

Jesus was about forgiveness, not about vengeance.

Those who act upon vengeance are not true Christians.

There.

.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Abramelin

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

I'm open enough to be able to see fundamentalists on both sides and I don't paint everyone with the same broad brush as people are so fond of doing here.

I respond to how I have been treated here, and that is badly, and it has been by people I see as clearly being fundamentalist Christians. I have made it clear in places that I am not anti - Christian. Yet it has been made very clear to me that some on this forum are offended that anybody could not be a Christian, and are very much against any Pagans. I am subjected to various forms of attack, in the open and by PM, how pathetic and shamefull, and one person I have had to block. I do not shed any tears for any hurt feelings of those who attack me. Ordinary decent people who are Christians do not attack me, and I do not attack them. It is only the fundamentalists and their rather strange apologists who attack me.

The OP is about how Christians are oppressed, yes, quite.....

Edited April 18, 2013 by Atentutankh-pasheri

[IamsSon]

Well, precedes Christianity by some 1500 years would be more correct.

Anyway, my point is that there are Christians who live according to the NT. That seems logical because otherwise they would not call themselves Christians. But as you know, many Christians follow the Bible, which includes the OT.

Now that is different. Atrocities committed in the name of Christianity were always committed by those who followed the OT.

Jesus didn't say "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth", but "love your neighbour", "whoever is without sin, let him throw the first stone", "turn the other cheek", and so on.

.

Actually, the atrocities that have been committed in the name of Christianity were not committed by people "following" the Old Testament. They were committed by people who took Scripture out of context to justify their unChristian acts.

The Old Testament is quite a valid set of books for all Christians to study since it relates the story of the other ways in which God has interacted with Man as He built up to the point where He now indwells His children through the Holy Spirit. There is nothing in the Old Testament that tells Christian that it is OK to go around killing or hurting others since the times when God did order that, He was very clearly ordering ISRAEL to engage in specific acts, even Israel was not simply told to kill whoever they wanted. As a Christian reads and studies the OldTestament he has to keep in mind that the majority of the commands, orders, requirements, etc. outlined in the OT are directed at Israel as part of the Covenant (or testament) that God made with them, while we are to live according to the New Covenant (New Testament) that God established with anyone who will accept Jesus's sacrifice as the full and proper payment for their sins. Under this new covenant, we do not have to engage in rituals, feasts, or any other ceremonial activities since they were all intended to keep the people of Israel focused on God and to point out the impossibility of earning their way to God.

[IamsSon]

I respond to how I have been treated here, and that is badly, and it has been by people I see as clearly being fundamentalist Christians. I have made it clear in places that I am not anti - Christian. Yet it has been made very clear to me that some on this forum are offended that anybody could not be a Christian, and are very much against any Pagans. I am subjected to various forms of attack, in the open and by PM, how pathetic and shamefull, and one person I have had to block. I do not shed any tears for any hurt feelings of those who attack me. Ordinary decent people who are Christians do not attack me, and I do not attack them. It is only the fundamentalists and their rather strange apologists who attack me.

The OP is about how Christians are oppressed, yes, quite.....

No, of course not anti-Christian at all.

Of course an alternate view is that they are really not Christian and are simply trying to give Christianity a bad name. If so, please, carry on, and thank you for the good work

Why would anybody think so?

[Setton]

I still find it very curious that posters who say they are not Christian, or that they are lapsed Christians, agnostics or even atheists, are not slow in rushing to attack any who dare say one unfavourable word against Christianity. I call these people liars, I say they are all Christians, and due to their loudness and blockheaded stance, are probably fundamentalists.

Alternatively, they just disagree with you?t Perhaps because you seem to have no idea what you're talking about or how to debate. Can't you see how flawed that argument is? 'All Christians disagree with me and are therefore wrong. Everyone who disagrees with me must be a Christian.'

But from you and others, nothing but a wall of selfrighteous pomposity and hate.

Or facts as other people call them. Something you have yet to produce in support of any one of your claims.

I have made it clear in places that I am not anti - Christian.

WHERE? Show me one post of yours in this topic that doesn't read as an anti-Christian.

It is only the fundamentalists and their rather strange apologists who attack me.

Aside from the rest of your rant, you seem confused about what a fundamentalist is. It is not someone who thinks you are wrong. Nor is it someone who thinks their own beliefs are right (that's called a person).

Here is the definition for you for future reference:

fun·da·men·tal·ism (fnd-mntl-zm)

n.

1.

A usually religious movement or point of view

characterized by a return to fundamental principles

, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.

So a fundamentalist may be one who tries to follow every single rule in the Bible. Including those in the OT about converting people, homosexuality or even forbidding wearing mixed fibre clothes. No-one I've seen on this topic has any of the hallmarks of a fundamentalist. Indeed, the only one exhibiting their usual brand of stubborn ignorance would be you.

The lot of you are not worth a spit, or my time anymore.

I believe that is the fourth time you have claimed to be leaving the topic. Can we hope it's genuine this time rather than more melodrama?

[Abramelin]

Atentutankh-pasheri, I am on your side.

It's indeed the fundamentalists who create mayhem.

Idiots with no brains, and gobbling up info from the Bible according to their limited understanding of these ancient texts.

++

True Christians will not attack you, but those who follow the OT will.

You wanted to know who were real Christians?

[tapirmusic]

Good question, inasmuch as the guy who said it was Thomas Jefferson - somewhere between Deist and atheist.

Americans have not been paying attention to the erosion of liberties that has been going on over the past thirty years or so. The religious right has allied itself with the Republican Party. The Republicans, unable to actually win elections at the polls, have sought to rig elections by Gerrymandering district boundaries and putting up obstacles to voting, particularly to people they think will vote Democrat. I could go on and on, but why don't you just watch MSNBC tonight? There's Rachel Maddow, the Ed Show, and several others. They tend to be a little one-sided, but at least they don't outright lie about it - like another network I could mention.

Haven't turned on a "news" broadcast in a long time? Speaker Boehner is currently blocking gun control simply by refusing to bring the issue to the floor for a vote. He is Speaker of the House only because Tea Party members have thrown their support behind him. And they are members of Congress only because the Religious Right supports them. And they claim to be Christians, so Christianity gets involved. Does that answer your question?

The dysfunction is simply that the wingnuts can't get enough votes to govern (and I doubt they'd know how even if they had enough). But they have enough to block action, so that's what they do. The strategy seems to be that they think people will blame the failures on the Democrats and re-elect the Tea Party. Will it work? We'll have to wait and see.

Doug

Wow. Absolutely none of that pertains to the topic at hand.

Congratulations! Maybe you should try spending some time in the politics sections on this board.

and Douggy... Douggy.....

really? MSNBC?

HA ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Alternatively, they just disagree with you?t Perhaps because you seem to have no idea what you're talking about or how to debate. Can't you see how flawed that argument is? 'All Christians disagree with me and are therefore wrong. Everyone who disagrees with me must be a Christian.'

Or facts as other people call them. Something you have yet to produce in support of any one of your claims.

WHERE? Show me one post of yours in this topic that doesn't read as an anti-Christian.

Aside from the rest of your rant, you seem confused about what a fundamentalist is. It is not someone who thinks you are wrong. Nor is it someone who thinks their own beliefs are right (that's called a person).

Here is the definition for you for future reference:

fun·da·men·tal·ism(fnd-mntl-zm)

n.

1.

A usually religious movement or point of view

characterized by a return to fundamental principles

, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.

So a fundamentalist may be one who tries to follow every single rule in the Bible. Including those in the OT about converting people, homosexuality or even forbidding wearing mixed fibre clothes. No-one I've seen on this topic has any of the hallmarks of a fundamentalist. Indeed, the only one exhibiting their usual brand of stubborn ignorance would be you.

I believe that is the fourth time you have claimed to be leaving the topic. Can we hope it's genuine this time rather than more melodrama?

You are just a moron who proves my points

No, of course not anti-Christian at all.

Why would anybody think so?

Same answer as to your buddy Setton, you are just a moron who proves my points

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Shove threats up a.. of all who attack me. I will not respond further in this thread, but will not leave this forum because of threats. Now you can have the last sneering remarks to claim your "victory"

poshli vi nahui!

Edited April 18, 2013 by Atentutankh-pasheri

[Doug1029]

Wow. Absolutely none of that pertains to the topic at hand.

Congratulations! Maybe you should try spending some time in the politics sections on this board.

and Douggy... Douggy.....

really? MSNBC?

HA ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was attempting to provide you with an answer to the questions you posed in Post # 16. If you don't want an irrelevant answer, don't ask for one.

And I think the issue of Oppression of AND BY Christians is both contemporary and immediate in American politics.

Doug

[Setton]

You are just a moron who proves my points

Well, didn't really expect any sensible response. Can't say I didn't make the effort at least. Shame you can't engage in a mature debate but there we go. Bye then.

I will not respond further in this thread, but will not leave this forum because of threats.

Five.

[+Sherapy]

Religion oppresses its own and no others that but those that choose to be opressed.

Religious mandates come and go. That is a fact. IMO, God doesn't have much of a say when it's all said and done.The gay rights movement speaks of this progress, loud and clear, IMO at the end of the day its equal rights that people fight the most for. The way I see it at the end of the day it's inherent altruism/humanity for each other that trumps oppression. Glory be to the constitution!

Edited April 18, 2013 by Sherapy

[IamsSon]

Five.

I say we see at least 10 separate threats to leave before the thread runs its course. Any takers?

[White Crane Feather]

Actually, the atrocities that have been committed in the name of Christianity were not committed by people "following" the Old Testament. They were committed by people who took Scripture out of context to justify their unChristian acts.

Untrue. Most of those people were illiterate especially in Latin. They did not take anything out if context , they held faith that god would not lead them astray and that faith was placed in their book and leaders just as is today. Your comments of guilt because you are not sure if you could follow through with the command to Abraham only proves the point. There are many very faithful people that would. As soon as a faithful person is convinced its gods will anything can happen. Fundamentalist people just end up being tools for evil people.

Its not just Christians of course. Many of us consider the abrahamic religions just different branches of the same religion.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Seeker79

[muffin2013]

To me you don't

I guess every religion, ethnic group and social group gets oppressed for one thing or another (especially with all of this social media).

It is always the label on the particular social group that ruins it for everyone, such as; "Blacks are welfare bludgers, and the women have several different baby daddy's". This label is not fundamentally true.Yes, some might and there are others that also pay their taxes and have children with one partner.

It is just like Christianity. A lot of people will judge you and your religion and may label you preachy and annoying, but that is not fundamentally true.

I get called weird and airyfairy because I am "spiritual", but fundamentally, as a person I am not those things. I am normal as they come really.

There is no stopping oppression for any social group, unless people apply knowledge and wisdom instead of their ignorance and actually have respect for different cultures and beliefs

[IamsSon]

Untrue. Most of those people were illiterate especially in Latin. They did not take anything out if context , they held faith that god would not lead them astray and that faith was placed in their book and leaders just as is today.

But their leaders DID take Scripture out of context. That's what I was talking about. The people who want to accomplish something take Biblical passages out of context, or passages from pagan texts, or passages from Harry Potter, whatever is most influential and convince the masses that what they are doing or ordering them to do is good and proper and blessed by whatever deity it is they honor.

Your comments of guilt because you are not sure if you could follow through with the command to Abraham only proves the point.

Actually, I expressed shame, not guilt.

There are many very faithful people that would. As soon as a faithful person is convinced its gods will anything can happen. Fundamentalist people just end up being tools for evil people.

I will not argue that there are faithful people that would do this, what I would question is what they are faithful about since the God I follow has established a covenant with man in which He commanded us to love one another. A covenant in which He committed to pay for our sins with His death and in which, in exchange, we were to try to follow His example and love every one as we also shared His story and His love with others. That covenant does not leave ANY room for persecuting, for forcing others to choose at the point of a sword, or at the edge of a cliff.

Its not just Christians of course. Many of us consider the abrahamic religions just different branches of the same religion.

And it's not just the "Abrahamic" religions, it's every religion, human philosphy, organization, work of literature or club. Out-of-context cover can and will come from whatever provides the best cover.

[White Crane Feather]

But their leaders DID take Scripture out of context. That's what I was talking about. The people who want to accomplish something take Biblical passages out of context, or passages from pagan texts, or passages from Harry Potter, whatever is most influential and convince the masses that what they are doing or ordering them to do is good and proper and blessed by whatever deity it is they honor.

Actually, I expressed shame, not guilt.

I will not argue that there are faithful people that would do this, what I would question is what they are faithful about since the God I follow has established a covenant with man in which He commanded us to love one another. A covenant in which He committed to pay for our sins with His death and in which, in exchange, we were to try to follow His example and love every one as we also shared His story and His love with others. That covenant does not leave ANY room for persecuting, for forcing others to choose at the point of a sword, or at the edge of a cliff.

And it's not just the "Abrahamic" religions, it's every religion, human philosphy, organization, work of literature or club. Out-of-context cover can and will come from whatever provides the best cover.

It is true. Blind faith in anything from religion to corporations has the same effects. I guess as long as a person is aware of this then hopefully when the time comes their critical thoughts will kick in. I'm not actually seeing anything we are disagreeing on. You seem pretty aware. I'm glad you have that bit of shame. It shows you are not entirely a zombie.

The truth is of course is that missionaries do and have indeed invaded aboriginal cultures, and in many many cases force conversion if not committing murder and genocide. The blood is not so easy to wash off because one claims they were not following the bible properly. It's irrelevant, most Christians interpret the bible in their own way and contexts anyway. It's the rare Christian indeed that has a stack of different scholarly translations at home, with notes from linguistic experts and historians. Most Christians still believe that the Tree was really a tree and the Adam and Eve were actually real people that ate a real piece of fruit from the tree. It makes me chuckle just thinking about it.

I still do not understand why Christians say Jesus died for us when he is waiting in heaven. No one has been able to logically explain the 'sacrifice' to me. I could understand this sacrifice for ones convictions from a man but not a god/man.

But anyway. I think the case has been made that Christians, as a group, are just as guilty if not more so of oppression than any other group in the last 1500 years. This is indeed why free societies maintain freedom of religion rights as to attempt to escape the madness of faithful people that insist that their brand of spirituality is the ONLY way.

[IamsSon]

It is true. Blind faith in anything from religion to corporations has the same effects. I guess as long as a person is aware of this then hopefully when the time comes their critical thoughts will kick in. I'm not actually seeing anything we are disagreeing on. You seem pretty aware. I'm glad you have that bit of shame. It shows you are not entirely a zombie.

The truth is of course is that missionaries do and have indeed invaded aboriginal cultures, and in many many cases force conversion if not committing murder and genocide. The blood is not so easy to wash off because one claims they were not following the bible properly. It's irrelevant, most Christians interpret the bible in their own way and contexts anyway. It's the rare Christian indeed that has a stack of different scholarly translations at home, with notes from linguistic experts and historians. Most Christians still believe that the Tree was really a tree and the Adam and Eve were actually real people that ate a real piece of fruit from the tree. It makes me chuckle just thinking about it.

I still do not understand why Christians say Jesus died for us when he is waiting in heaven. No one has been able to logically explain the 'sacrifice' to me. I could understand this sacrifice for ones convictions from a man but not a god/man.

But anyway. I think the case has been made that Christians, as a group, are just as guilty if not more so of oppression than any other group in the last 1500 years. This is indeed why free societies maintain freedom of religion rights as to attempt to escape the madness of faithful people that insist that their brand of spirituality is the ONLY way.

I think there are quite a few areas where we have disagreed, but it's become obvious this is not going anywhere since we don't seem to be communicating.