The History of Schizophrenia

[Rlyeh]

Why are serial murders still sane? Why aren't they being punished with schizophrenia? Their crimes are heinous! Any murderer for that matter. And child molesters too.

I don't think they're all sane, Richard Chase murdered and cannibalised his victims to stop what he believed Nazis trying to poison him.

http://crime.about.c...chard_chase.htm

http://www.trutv.com...se/index_1.html

Edit: According to notforgotten's excuse, God made him do it.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Rlyeh

[notforgotten]

How can you call this BS truth? You're stuck in a past of archaic beliefs.

The invisible spirit world has not changed for thousands of years. There is both good and evil in it, people that tell the truth and people that lie. People that do good things and people that do bad things, just like in this world. I try to do good things by telling people the truth. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, nor do I expect everyone to believe it. All I can do is be a friend to people by telling them the truth. I don't know what you believe Rlyeh, but I can assure you that those people on these forums that bare witness to the paranormal and supernatural are telling the truth.

Of an interesting note, those spirits whose job it is to do evil to the schizophrenic are in hell. They are evil and wicked for all of eternity without God and Jesus. Trust me Rlyeh, they are real!

Edited April 16, 2013 by notforgotten

[Rlyeh]

The invisible spirit world has not changed for thousands of years. There is both good and evil in it, people that tell the truth and people that lie. People that do good things and people that do bad things, just like in this world. I try to do good things by telling people the truth. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, nor do I expect everyone to believe it. All I can do is be a friend to people by telling them the truth. I don't know what you believe Rlyeh, but I can assure you that those people on these forums that bare witness to the paranormal and supernatural are telling the truth.

Sure it has, gods come and go. People like yourself come up with their own assumptions of the "spirit world", with words as empty as the evidence for it's existence.

Get it right, you're telling them your truth. The problem is telling people their mental illness is caused by spirits helps no one, and only reinforces your confirmation bias.

Of an interesting note, those spirits whose job it is to do evil to the schizophrenic are in hell. They are evil and wicked for all of eternity without God and Jesus. Trust me Rlyeh, they are real!

I'm not sure what is interesting about something so false and convoluted. Trust me, I once shared your delusions. Edited April 16, 2013 by Rlyeh

[notforgotten]

What qualifications does a priest have to determine what kind of help a schizophrenic needs? Unless he is a psychiatrist this sounds dangerous.

If a person is sick, by all means incorporate their faith into healing if that's going to help, but it can't be the only factor and should not be the diagnosing factor...that thought is scary. Especially to say one is being punished for committing certain sins. It's also a call to grace - to be an adopted child of God. It's righteous for a Christian to thank God for their sufferings and the wisdom gained from it.

Raven eyes, in post 45 said his sister started showing symptoms at 16, no street drugs are mentioned. What are her sins? I do not know what all the sins are. What could she possibly have done in 16 years of life that deserves that kind of punishment?

Why are serial murders still sane? Why aren't they being punished with schizophrenia? Their crimes are heinous! Any murderer for that matter. And child molesters too. Only certain sins bring evil spirits into peoples lives.

Why is it ok to judge anyone a sinner, regardless of mental health? Isn't judgment a sin in catholicism? God is perfect. A sin can be as small as a mean thought. We are all sinners. To say you're not would be a lie.

[Lava_Lady]

To blame "evil spirits" for ones actions is to deflect responsibility for ones actions.

What happens when God punishes a person with visions of the devil, and the devil tells the person to commit a sin like murder? Does that mean that it was actually God that told the person to do it? Does that mean that the devil has the ability to control humans?

Should the law also respect that religion knows best? Because a lot of people try to say they were "not guilty by reason of insanity" in which the insane action is explained by "voices" be it God or the devil, or the dog or whatever telling them to do whatever crime they did. If this us acceptable, should we then allow these people to go free after the accept the word of God as told via catholicism?

My point is that I cannot say what people see or hear is real or not. Maybe it is... but it doesn't matter. If a person is able to function enough to take care of themselves and not be a danger to themselves or anyone else, let them be. If someone is exhibiting dangerous behavior, either to themselves or others, or is not able to perform the general activities of daily living then they need help and it will not be enough to say just accept the Christian God into you're life.

And I feel that telling someone their illness is punishment for something they did is harmful. Because if its schizophrenia or another severe form of mental illness, mere repentance will not help. And of it doesn't help, what then? Does that mean they are not worthy of forgiveness??? Why??? I have a feeling you will say because of evil spirits... But isn't God more powerful than evil spirits?

Why is repentance conditional? Why would it work for one mentally ill person and not another?

[notforgotten]

To blame "evil spirits" for ones actions is to deflect responsibility for ones actions. Nobody is blaming evil spirits for ones actions. I believe the sinner is responsible for bringing the evil spirits into their lives and also responsible for their actions. .

What happens when God punishes a person with visions of the devil, and the devil tells the person to commit a sin like murder? It's not God that carries out temporal punishment - it's the Holy Spirit. Does that mean that it was actually God that told the person to do it? Does that mean that the devil has the ability to control humans? If psychiatry were to tell people the truth, the schizophrenic would be better prepared not to listen to an evil voice.

Should the law also respect that religion knows best? Because a lot of people try to say they were "not guilty by reason of insanity" in which the insane action is explained by "voices" be it God or the devil, or the dog or whatever telling them to do whatever crime they did. God is not evil, he would not tell someone to commit a crime. But the devils are and they would tell someone to commit a crime. Again, the answer is in proper education about what is truly going on with the person. If this us acceptable, should we then allow these people to go free after the accept the word of God as told via Catholicism? Personally, I don't find crime acceptable. Although I do believe in forgiveness.

My point is that I cannot say what people see or hear is real or not. Maybe it is... but it doesn't matter. Think about if it is...millions upon millions of witnesses throughout mans' history testifying to God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, angels and it's all true! If a person is able to function enough to take care of themselves and not be a danger to themselves or anyone else, let them be. If someone is exhibiting dangerous behavior, either to themselves or others, or is not able to perform the general activities of daily living then they need help and it will not be enough to say just accept the Christian God into you're life. The truth be told, both the believer and non-believer alike will have to stop doing the sin/s that are causing suffering.

And I feel that telling someone their illness is punishment for something they did is harmful. More emphasis can be placed on what's going with their particular case. A description of how the evil spirits are will outline every symptom of schizophrenia and explain what's truly going on with the person. Because if its schizophrenia or another severe form of mental illness, mere repentance will not help. Repentance will work. A complete void of psychotic inducing toxins may very well cure the person of schizophrenia without medication. And of it doesn't help, what then? Does that mean they are not worthy of forgiveness??? No Why??? I have a feeling you will say because of evil spirits... But isn't God more powerful than evil spirits?

Why is repentance conditional? Why would it work for one mentally ill person and not another? I believe that there is hope for everyone.

A book needs to be written describing the symptoms of schizophrenia in relationship to the devils for the psychiatrist with careful consideration and some understanding of the good spirits as well. Edited April 16, 2013 by notforgotten

[JC2]

This topic has lost any reason to be here if it ever belonged here in the first place, I suggest moving it to another forum, no philosophy or psychology being discussed only religious beliefs being argued here!

[Beany]

The Catholic Church still adheres to the doctrine of temporal punishment. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. Within the Church, a person must consult a priest to determine if what they are experiencing is temporal punishment or not. If the priest determines that it is not temporal punishment and may be a mental disorder, they will refer them to a psychiatrist.

\

If that were true, I'd fall on my knees with relief at escaping Catholicism and its dogma. However, the Church no longer believes mental illness is caused by mental illness, so they get a pass on this one. They're just not into punishing people who have an illness. They used to be, but that was centuries ago.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Beany

[SpiritWriter]

The thing about religious beliefs are that they are more than beliefs. This is real world stuff we are discussing. Please dont think that Jesus cannot exorcize demons...

[SpiritWriter]

Btw I dont think its sin that causes schitzophrenia I think its an attack on a persons soul. Things like drugs can further intensify, prolongue and keep you there for longer but being a drug addict is just as much a mental disorder as schitzophrenia is.

[notforgotten]

This topic has lost any reason to be here if it ever belonged here in the first place, I suggest moving it to another forum, no philosophy or psychology being discussed only religious beliefs being argued here!

Psychiatry, psychology and schizophrenia is being discussed here. The history of this illness is of a spiritual origin. This OP is about how that has changed over the last one hundred years and the evolution of treatment.

[SpiritWriter]

Unless spiritual attack is different than schitzophrenia... but I would assume they are the same and. .. am positive that the symptoms of spiritual attack would be labeled as such... some people are sensitive to the spirit, entities can take advantage of that if the person does not become spiritually strong. Spiritual strength is cultivated by more than just your will power but by connecting to god and in order to do so you have to walk on the right path... there is a lot of talk of sin and people get offended by that, but there is a scientific method called repentance, which is the complete change of action for something you were doing that you know was harming your spiritual walk, this affects you deeply on a psychological level and brings you closer to god. The closer you get to god the more you see him working in your life. He actually specializes in the treatment of mental illnesses. He is the pure source. It seems to me that the world would like to take this away from people.

I am not speaking from inexperience, Ive seen this in action...

[White Crane Feather]

As I said in a previous post, psychiatry is still in the dark ages when compared to other medical disciplines. We lack any profound understanding on what causes serious psychotic illnesses and the various approaches to treatments reflect this. It's more than a little analagous to the real dark ages where supernatural and superstitious explanations could be offered for a variety of phenomena. Phenomena we now know to have natural (or material) explanations. Knowledge of schizophrenia finds itself at the same point, where almost any theory can be presented (often on the flimsiest of evidence). This perceived lack of knowledge makes psychology and psychiatry vulnerable to the equivalent of 'god of the gaps' arguments.

There is, however, a fair amount of evidence that shows vulnerability to schizophrenia to have a genetic component, that psychotic episodes are often triggered by stresses (intrapersonal, interpersonal and environmental). That sufferers often have similar developmental experiences, have been brought up in harsh or / and abusive environments. Whilst this doesn't rule out the supernatural, it's shows that in all likelihood the origins and causes of mental illness are embedded in the world we know about - not one we imagine.

That being said, it's clear that a variety of therapies have some success at treating psychotic symptoms. And it's not always clear why some things work for some and not others, or why they work at all. So, within the profession, the emphasis tends to be to do what works. Medication can be effective for many, and so can a variety of psychological and psycho-social therapies.

A patient of mine may believe they are possessed by demons, or that the hallucinations they experience are gods are spirits. We can tell the patient that what they believe is simply wrong and is the product of mental illness - they need to gain some insight and take lots of medication. Or, we can accept that their beliefs are real and genuine to them and work with that. It doesn't matter what I believe, it's what they believe that is important. As you probably know, I don't believe in demons or spirits (and I certainly don't believe they cause mental illness) but that shouldn't stop me from doing what will help the individual. This can be seen in some of the less conventional interventions we facilitate - eg, complementary and 'spiritual' medicines, having a patient's room blessed etc....

Arbenol are you a doctor?

[JC2]

Psychiatry, psychology and schizophrenia is being discussed here. The history of this illness is of a spiritual origin. This OP is about how that has changed over the last one hundred years and the evolution of treatment.

My apologies, yet I still believe this is not the forum, I can understand the argument but have to err on the side of reason.

Mental illness is what it is, if you are of a religious stance you will believe that it is an external force acting on an internal dynamic, with this you will have to work on your beliefs to determine what is then right for you.

If you are of the persuasion that what is in case a physical problem then no amount of persuasion will change the fact of the resulting complications of those suffering.

What I would propose is that in both cases there is one common denominator, that being the afflicted, a thousand year argument is neither here nor there when it comes to rational thinking in both camps. Christian religion has already given way to the science, in reality deferring the problem in so that it already has enough representatives of this nature so God has delivered his message through enough souls, the rest can now be damned and put out to graze, abandoned!

The problem has now shifted to the new camp of science so it would do well to then let the science have its day, so to speak, give it time and the fortitude just may bring new answers to the age old dilemma.

Religion hasn't made it go away, nor did it help those afflicted, science has taken up the mantel let us see what it is able to offer before we return to a less progressive nature by just leaving it in the hands of god.

Time is in effect the great healer, you never know, the new technology might throw up new perspectives that could help the situation rather than the same-old, same-old arguments that never get us anywhere.

Didn't mean to dismiss you outrightly just proposed a more relevant forum.

As you stated, it is a spiritual origin...

[White Crane Feather]

Churches vary.... I was shunned at a catholic church for not going through their little whatever its called conversion process and not allowed to take the eucharist, the priest actually kicked me out of line.. at my old church we took communion once a month and werent required to do anything but pray before hand making sure we didnt have any unforgiveness in our hearts. The church I go to now, its possible you'd be friends with the pastor since you like to talk about spirituality, you probably wouldnt see eye to eye on everything but you could easily have conversations with him regarding spirituality without being offended about him being a christian pastor... it took me a while to find this church, so I understand the types of churches you mean, BUT I have been hearing a lot of sermons as of late by a variety of people that seem to be on an upward swing in regards to the issues I have.. I dont know what issues you have about the church. I would assume bigotry against other religions. Or something about demons.... i took one of my god kids to get prayed for because she was seeing shadows and he prayed to take away the fear but to understand her gifts, at the time i didnt agree with him, i thought he should pray to get rid of them, she seemed to like how he prayed though so thats good. .. I know for sure my pastor wouldn't have a problem marrying interfaith people.

I think it really depends on the church and its particular leaders not the sect....

Indeed. This is a response to beany aswell.

In my mind a church is not its leadership. The church is its people. My relationship with Catholicism is probably spoiled because i live in very moderate and integrated educated middle class suburb. The Catholics are gentle and very accepting of others here. I don't think our catholic community here would tolerate bigotry from its leaders. They don't seem to care what "the church" thinks. My wife and probably over 90% of the catholic women here practice birth control, have a gay friend that they would have no problem seeing get maried, and don't actually believe other religions are wrong. They leave the dogma to clergy and still attend church, take communion, and recite the prayers. I get the feeling that most people just use the church as their way of connecting to their own god in reverence rather than being subject to their church. I could not say the same for other Christian churches I have been to here. A Hindu woman would definantly not feel comfortable in them. They tend to actively preach against other religions (even Catholicism), condem gays, and generaly control their flock. The priests here just do not seem to wage that kind of campaign. I think for our more thoughtful Christians, this is more attractive than all the hand waiving, jumping up and down, and hoopla displayed at concert like worship services.

Again, it may be different elsewhere and certainly is in history, but here, Catholics are moderate accepting and their priests in a lot of ways are also. We had one priest here for a while that would not allow non catholic god parents. He did not last long, members rose up against his attitude and he was moved somewhere else. Indeed I'm not catholic. I refuse to make a sign of a cross on anything, and I have to hold back my chuckle when I walk into the church with a huge statue of a big white Jesus. Still my children are baptized ( their mothers wishes that we agreed upon before marriage), and I attend and participate in the ceremony, I just have to let my wife put crosses on my babies. If I do it it's a lie. I might as well be traceing an electric chair on their foreheads.

But if all works because everyone is tolerant of others. I like it this way. I would not last long in other environments. Spirituality is an individual persuit and that's the way it should be. I dont mind my children learning about Christianity because in the end I know they will be educated and will ultimately make their own choices.

My wife knows I teach the journey to others at a local new age shop, she is rather fascinated by the odd things that happen and things I learn. My more shamanic spirituality and self education on many many religions makes our household quite interesting. We read from the bible and the Bagavagita, bodi dharma etc etc. Most moderate people believe there are many paths to god.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Seeker79

[Frank Merton]

Mental illnesses are medical problems treatable medically. The persistent notion that things like depression can be dealt with by "bucking up," or compulsions dealt with through self-control just lead to more suicides and suffering.

The difficulty is that pharmaceutical interference with one's thinking -- one's mind. There are moral issues here that don't arise when prescribing blood pressure pills. You are changing the nature of the person. As the famous play pointed out, if the guy is happy thinking he's a horse, and miserable as a person, what right has the psychiatrist to interfere?

(Of course the reality is that a person is not going to be able to be happy thinking he's a horse in our society).

[Mr Right Wing]

The history of schizophrenia goes back thousands of years. Over the centuries, schizophrenics have been considered mystics, saints, possessed by evil spirits or servants of the Devil. Schizophrenia treatment in history has been as gentle as using music and as violent as resorting to ice pick surgery.

Schizophrenia Treatment: History And Evolution? http://www.tree.com/...ia-history.aspx

I believe that the American Psychiatric Association has squashed the true testimonies of millions of witnesses to God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, angels, saints in heaven as well as demons and evil spirits by their over one hundred year old lie that it's all in these peoples' heads. These are the same people that would kill people by drilling holes in their heads trying to release evil spirits. The same people that would also kill people by cutting the frontal lobe of the brain out of them. One scientist got a Nobel Peace prize for doing this. They tried insulin injections which often left people in a coma. And they would give them enough electric shock treatments at such a high voltage as to make their brains mush. Are these the people that you want to trust and believe? I believe that those poor lowly "crazy" people that have said that they've talked to God, seen angels and the devil have been telling the truth all along and it's the modern day psychiatrist that has been lying. I believe that a grave injustice have been done against these people and it's high time people knew the truth.

The criteria list for psychosis and schizophrenia does include seeing/hearing things that arent there however that one thing isnt enough for a diagnosis. They must meet other criteria too meaning its hard for a misdiagnosis to occur.

For instance if someone with visions if God is psychotic they'll have a traumatic incident from their past driving severe neurosis. If it was schizophrenia there would be chemical imbalances in the brain. As such people with geniune religious visions can be telled apart from the mentally ill.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Giant Killer B

[Rlyeh]

The thing about religious beliefs are that they are more than beliefs. This is real world stuff we are discussing. Please dont think that Jesus cannot exorcize demons...

Jesus can do anything in fantasy land.

[notforgotten]

Jesus can do anything in fantasy land.

My heart cries out to you Rlyeh.

[SpiritWriter]

Yeah our churches have to do more with leadership.. probably because the sermon is longer. Just cant sit listening to something you cant agree with for too long, ive never seen a congregation get rid of a pastor, if thier not happy they leave.. pastor isnt going anywhere, its his church...

The jumping around hooplah is fun and so is praising God.. that part I love.. (but we dont do that at my new church its so small we dont have musicians and sing to cds lol...

Ok sorry notforgotten this is off subject.

Have a great day guys.

I might as well be traceing an electric chair on their foreheads.

My more shamanic spirituality and self education on many many religions makes our household quite interesting. We read from the bible and the Bagavagita, bodi dharma etc etc. Most moderate people believe there are many paths to god.

[JC2]

The criteria list for psychosis and schizophrenia does include seeing/hearing things that arent there however that one thing isnt enough for a diagnosis. They must meet other criteria too meaning its hard for a misdiagnosis to occur.

For instance if someone with visions if God is psychotic they'll have a traumatic incident from their past driving severe neurosis. If it was schizophrenia there would be chemical imbalances in the brain. As such people with geniune religious visions can be telled apart from the mentally ill.

First off, show me a reference to an actual person/patient who has had their brain chemistry measured? Second then show me the model to which this chemistry is standardised, what is the normal measure in such chemistry?

As for your final statement can you expand? What are the differing attributes you can obviously recognise that the rest of us struggle with.

[scowl]

Whilst the first part of your statement is undoubtedly true, the second is clearly not. Some sufferers will never respond to any medication and many will always have residual symptoms. But, notwithstanding the often terrible side effects, the right medication can significantly reduce (if not eliminate) symptoms.

There are hundreds of clinical studies that prove that anti-psychotic drugs are effective which prove that it's entirely a medical disorder. I am not aware of any clinical studies which have shown that praying or worshiping decreases the symptoms. Funny that "notforgotten" believes that the drug methamphetamine brings "evil spirits" yet refuses to believe that other drugs can't make these "evil spirits" leave.

The problem is that they have to keep taking it indefinitely. Because no one has been able to develop an effective antipsychotic without side effects people tend to skip doses, reduce what they take, or stop taking it altogether. Relapse and re emergence of symptoms becomes inevitable.

This is only in the most severe cases. People keep overlooking the cases of acute schizophrenia where a person can go weeks, months, and even years without a psychotic episode. Also symptoms sometimes decrease with age or disappear for unknown reasons.

Modern drugs have far fewer side effects than the brute-force dopamine blockers of decades ago. We saw people coming in with horrible muscle spasms and other side effects. Amazingly they continued to take these medications because it gave them most of their lives back and the side effects were a relative inconvenience.

There was also a study that suggested that medication during the earliest onset of symptoms decreases the severity of the symptoms later in life.

[notforgotten]

Follow this link to see the Holy Spirit under Father Gods' left arm:

https://www.restored...es-murillo.aspx

It's the Holy Spirit that brings evil spirits into the lives of schizophrenics as temporal punishment due to sin. Note: the Holy Spirit looks just like the "orb". That's because they are one and the same. To me, revealing this to you is a treat because this is Esoteric Christian wisdom. There are not many people in the world that know this.

Edited April 16, 2013 by notforgotten

[scowl]

The criteria list for psychosis and schizophrenia does include seeing/hearing things that arent there however that one thing isnt enough for a diagnosis. They must meet other criteria too meaning its hard for a misdiagnosis to occur.

One interesting thing from our checklist back in the 80's was whether or not the patients felt the hallucinations were unpleasant or disrupting their lives. A small percentage of the schizophrenics we saw did not find the symptoms of their disease to be bad in any way. They felt they really were communicating with God or aliens or some other invisible ally and it gave them a tremendous feeling of security and purpose in their lives. We couldn't help these people because they were not a danger to anyone so we let them back out into the streets to eat out of dumpsters and sleep on the ground. Family members screamed at the doctors for allowing this but they were simply following the law.

[Frank Merton]

You seem to know a little about this, so maybe you can set me straight on something. I've been made to understand that the hearing of voices comes from the fact that normally sounds entering our ears are interpreted by the brain as such and the corresponding sensations are created in our minds. Now we talk to ourselves, probably more than we admit, but our brain can distinguish this and does not create sound sensations for us to hear. In the schizophrenic this distinction is lost so that the brain does in fact convert these internal conversations into audible sound sensations. The person experiencing this knows there is no one speaking to them, so they invent someone -- and hence the messages then come to be consistent with this invention.