What did Edgar Rice Burroughs know?

[Frank Merton]

Oh yes, nonsense threads can go on forever; the same things just get said over and over.

I try -- although I don't always succeed -- generally because I don't recognize the symptoms in time -- to avoid such arguments. No amount of good sense and reason is going to persuade the nutcases and true believers (is there a difference?) so why bother? They have evidence concocted out of thin air. How does one refute that?

Anyway, it makes no difference. There is much to be gleaned from the sensible people who are on these boards, and even reading a few of the "true-believer" threads, the sensible participants sometimes post interesting and useful things.

One other thing -- I am by no means a confirmed non-believer. Bring me a sensible uncontrived balanced case of something unusual and I'm all eager to learn.

[quillius]

Oh yes, nonsense threads can go on forever; the same things just get said over and over.

I try -- although I don't always succeed -- generally because I don't recognize the symptoms in time -- to avoid such arguments. No amount of good sense and reason is going to persuade the nutcases and true believers (is there a difference?) so why bother? They have evidence concocted out of thin air. How does one refute that?

is there a difference? one has a medical issue/illness versus the other (although not sure what the prefix 'true' means in this context) who simply interprets the information/evidence differently to others....do you not see a difference?

Anyway, it makes no difference. There is much to be gleaned from the sensible people who are on these boards, and even reading a few of the "true-believer" threads, the sensible participants sometimes post interesting and useful things.

One other thing -- I am by no means a confirmed non-believer. Bring me a sensible uncontrived balanced case of something unusual and I'm all eager to learn.

try the Portage county case....or even better the Pascagoula case (of which there is a thread currently running)

[Frank Merton]

A "true believer" is someone who will never not believe. Personally I don't believe in belief. I think the most we should allow ourselves are opinions -- some of which we can hold strongly but most of the sort around here just as working theories.

[Hazzard]

There are perfectly normal explanations to all these "strange", unexplained and artificial objects on Mars and its moons, including the Face on Mars, pyramids and other anomalies.

Richard Hoagland's Nonsense.

http://www.badastron...d/misc/hoagland

http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/hoagland/city.html

His claims are grossly wrong, and generally easy to show as such. His analysis is flawed, his conclusions faulty, and his claims of conspiracy unfounded and unsupported.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Hazzard

[Frank Merton]

There are perfectly normal explanations to all these "strange", unexplained and artificial objects on Mars and its moons, including the Face on Mars, pyramids and other anomalies.

Richard Hoagland's Nonsense. http://www.badastron...d/misc/hoagland His claims are grossly wrong, and generally easy to show as such. His analysis is flawed, his conclusions faulty, and his claims of conspiracy unfounded and unsupported.

That won't stop him or others who want to believe.

[quillius]

A "true believer" is someone who will never not believe. Personally I don't believe in belief. I think the most we should allow ourselves are opinions -- some of which we can hold strongly but most of the sort around here just as working theories.

hmmm, not too sure I have seen many of those then....people who will believe anything and everything???

as for your comment ''Personally I don't believe in belief'' ....priceless, assuming it was sarcasm?

I do agree that we should all allow ourselves opinions...maybe the word opinion is better than the word belief...

[Abramelin]

Listen man.... when a 5000 year old book says someone/something went to mars and built an image of his face on mars....and then a face on mars is found! Something, some form of intelligent life was there at some point in time...

That book doesn't exist. just like that face doesn't exist.

[Hazzard]

That won't stop him or others who want to believe.

Im not posting for the credulous believer that already made their mind up and are now only looking for the stuff that supports their preconceived notion.

Im posting for the silent readers and people still on the fence.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Hazzard

[MasterFlint]

I'll admit a lot of the time Hoagland speaks without thinking... But a lot of his research into the legit pics of mars and the moon is very compelling and im pretty convinced that his stuff on Cydonia is the real deal. As well as the high strangeness with Phobo's. The tétraèdre geometry thing alone proves his research has merit. Math don't lie! Every human being can come up with wild and varied ideas and theories about things that can be dead wrong, but when it comes to Cydonia Hoagland is on the money.

[Hazzard]

I'll admit a lot of the time Hoagland speaks without thinking... But a lot of his research into the legit pics of mars and the moon is very compelling and im pretty convinced that his stuff on Cydonia is the real deal. As well as the high strangeness with Phobo's. The tétraèdre geometry thing alone proves his research has merit. Math don't lie! Every human being can come up with wild and varied ideas and theories about things that can be dead wrong, but when it comes to Cydonia Hoagland is on the money.

Did you even click on the link I posted on the previous page?!

This "hyperdimensional physics" rests solely on the relationships he sees in the "City". As you'll see, his claims that these relationships are special are totally bogus.

http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/hoagland/city.html

[Lilly]

I think Mr. Hoagland probably read Burrough's books as a kid and his fantasy notions about Mars were a result of it. Stuff that infuences us as children has a way of getting into our subconscious...most people develop the ability to discern between fantasy and reality...others don't. I'm pretty sure I know which catagory Mr. Hoagland is in.

[Space Commander Travis]

There are perfectly normal explanations to all these "strange", unexplained and artificial objects on Mars and its moons, including the Face on Mars, pyramids and other anomalies.

Richard Hoagland's Nonsense.

http://www.badastron...d/misc/hoagland

http://www.badastron...gland/city.html

His claims are grossly wrong, and generally easy to show as such. His analysis is flawed, his conclusions faulty, and his claims of conspiracy unfounded and unsupported.

Maybe so, but it's fun, though, you must admit.

[Frank Merton]

Maybe so, but it's fun, though, you must admit.

Actually, no, it is not fun. It is anti-science and discredits genuine science.

[Frank Merton]

hmmm, not too sure I have seen many of those then....people who will believe anything and everything???

as for your comment ''Personally I don't believe in belief'' ....priceless, assuming it was sarcasm?

I do agree that we should all allow ourselves opinions...maybe the word opinion is better than the word belief...

Of course I was being sarcastic, although I just thought I was being clever with my words. It is better to say, "I think," or, "In my opinion," than, "I believe."

A distinction can be made between opinions and beliefs that is more than just degree of certainty. Beliefs tend to be things we've been indoctrinated with through emotional propaganda, often as children in a religion, while opinions tend to be views we develop out of education and experience. Further, often we are not really aware of beliefs; we believe them as part of the furniture, applying them subconsciously, and experiencing an emotional reaction rather than an intellectual reaction when they come into doubt (often anger, sometimes astonishment or fear or even ridicule).

One other thing: believers are quite capable of committing pious fraud (inventing evidence, suppressing data, etc.) because the belief is more important to their psyche than is truth.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Frank Merton

[Rafterman]

I'll admit a lot of the time Hoagland speaks without thinking... But a lot of his research into the legit pics of mars and the moon is very compelling and im pretty convinced that his stuff on Cydonia is the real deal. As well as the high strangeness with Phobo's. The tétraèdre geometry thing alone proves his research has merit. Math don't lie! Every human being can come up with wild and varied ideas and theories about things that can be dead wrong, but when it comes to Cydonia Hoagland is on the money.

Well then why didn't NASA land Curiosity or any of its other rovers in that area?

In the current fiscal situation, NASA would like nothing better than to prove that cities and man-made structures exist on Mars. Trust me on that one.

[Space Commander Travis]

Actually, no, it is not fun. It is anti-science and discredits genuine science.

sometimes Science does seem very much like a religion, or at least very insecure, if it cannot tolerate any "unscientific" thinking that might lure gullible people away from the path of Truth.

[SHaYap]

in some ways ... 'science' is almost religion

[quillius]

in some ways ... 'science' is almost religion

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind

Albert Einstein

[quillius]

Of course I was being sarcastic, although I just thought I was being clever with my words. It is better to say, "I think," or, "In my opinion," than, "I believe."

A distinction can be made between opinions and beliefs that is more than just degree of certainty. Beliefs tend to be things we've been indoctrinated with through emotional propaganda, often as children in a religion, while opinions tend to be views we develop out of education and experience. Further, often we are not really aware of beliefs; we believe them as part of the furniture, applying them subconsciously, and experiencing an emotional reaction rather than an intellectual reaction when they come into doubt (often anger, sometimes astonishment or fear or even ridicule).

One other thing: believers are quite capable of committing pious fraud (inventing evidence, suppressing data, etc.) because the belief is more important to their psyche than is truth.

nice post...I agree, I dont think I will refer to myself as a believer anymore, just someone with an opinion

as for Pious Fraud.......this without doubt swings both ways

[Oniomancer]

Ever heard of Phobos?!?! The moon of mars that is misshapen and is the ONLY moon anyone knows about that isn't a sphere,

Incorrect. Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune all have several moons which are non-spherical or only roughly so.

http://www.funtrivia.com/askft/Question120806.html

Not to mention a number of asteroids and trans-Neptunian objects, which are much larger than Phobus. You even missed the fact that it's companion Deimos is also largely non-spherical.

[Esoteric Toad]

Unless there is a grand conspiracy we have the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter out there that can capture detail as small as things like the Viking landers on the surface. So far Mars is exactly like they expected. No artifacts, no buildings, no canals (artificial ones that is)....etc,

If there is/were intelligent life out there, other than us here on earth, it is not likely to have been in this solar system.

[Frank Merton]

There is a massive difference between science and the various forms of belief known as religion or pseudo-science. Science is fragile; it does not have reinforcement mechanisms like "faith" and childhood indoctrination and heirarchy and ritual and often state support and so on to perpetuate itself. It has only the fact that it produces. What it produces is wonderful and had made all our lives so much better, but it is always under threat from superstition and dogma and religious ferver. Europe lost science and Asia never had it until the Renaissance because of human superstition and authoritarianism.

I have my "religious" views too -- I'm a Buddhist of the Chinese/Vietnamese flavor, which means the Tao and Quan Yin and Confucian ethics. The thing is none of this opposes science as found in the west (with a few exceptions that I am agnostic about). I don't try to deny clear scientific results such as Darwinism, modern psychiatry, astronomy, and so on.

[bee]

Unless there is a grand conspiracy we have the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter out there that can capture detail as small as things like the Viking landers on the surface. So far Mars is exactly like they expected. No artifacts, no buildings, no canals (artificial ones that is)....etc,

If there is/were intelligent life out there, other than us here on earth, it is not likely to have been in this solar system.

And if there IS a Grand Conspiracy?

We are expected to take it on faith that we are being told everything...

Can't remember the name of the report at the moment...but there was that one that warned about the potential consequences

on society and religions if ancient artefacts etc were found by modern space travellers on the Moon, Mars or Venus...

and what effect that would have if the public were told about it ....

We wouldn't really know if we were being officially kept out of the loop....

And that's where the 'whistleblowers' and alternative researchers come into the picture...

.

[JimOberg]

You need to add the perspective of 'natural philosophers', who for centuries had accepted the notion that ALL the other planets were inhabited, even by intelligent species. This was an assumption. Then in the 1800s astronomical science gathered more and more evidence about the conditions on the surfaces of those worlds, and it became clear that 'life as we know it' had no place there. Various convoluted 'ad hoc' accommodations were proposed to cling to the hope of inhabitants -- the deep valleys of Barsoom is a good example. But as scientific knowledge increased, the realization of the hostility of those other worlds set in, and hope for inhabitants faded.

Note that this is starkly different from the myths of UFOdom that scientists and theologians closed-mindedly always REJECTED the idea of life on other planets. The opposite was true, as is usually the case with uforic myths.

[Frank Merton]

Conspiracies, sometimes "grand" and I guess sometimes less grand, as well as the notorious closed-mindedness of scientists to listen to anything outside their paradigm are two good clues that you are being peddled snake-oil. There is just enough plausibility to make it succeed if the individual hearing it is already gullible.

The problem is that sometimes there are conspiracies and cover-ups, and sometimes scientists are closed-minded (they view themselves as the experts and you as the amateur).

The thing is, don't assume conspiracy; don't assume cover-up, don't assume closed minds. These are the exceptions, not the rule. Assume the authorities are telling the truth to the best of their knowledge and within the law. Assume the scientist actually is an expert. You will do much better forming informed opinions that way.