Great Pyramids VS Egyptian Pyramids

[The_Spartan]

What about the small and rather ignorable attempts of building pyramids after the GP? The art evolved to magnificance of the GP and then declined so terribly?

Nevermind, you can believe in whatever illogical postulates worse of then Fringe that satisfy you.

Please list out these "small & rather ignorable" attemps to check, analyse and clarify the matter you are referring to.

My understanding is that

1st and foremost reason - cost and scale.The later paharaos/Dynasties couldnt afford to spend more resources on tombs, so the sizes diminshed.

Their attentions would be on more pressing matters of the kingdom like enemies /invaders at the borders, draught and famine etc.

So their attention changed from seeking glory through the pyramids and focussed more real world worries /problems.

If you are also considferign the Nubians Pyramids, then be ifnormed that it wasnt just the Nubian roltyalty who were entombed in the nubian pyramids, every richie rich of those times in nubia could also get a pyramid tomb if they had the moolah.

Ditto to you.

Aside from asking the questions, you are claiming that the GP was built in ancient times predating the egyptians & since you claim you are a person of science, do you have any scientific material/data/records that would back your theory/psotulastes?

What is the purpose of asking you anyway? You never deliver. or deliberately avoid delivering when asked for.

You wont accept anything the academia has written about or have found. You are rigid in your beliefs and so whats the use?

If you can debate and assimilate data, its well & good enough. But if you dont? then , whats the purpose?

Edited May 6, 2013 by The_Spartan

[Harsh86_Patel]

Cameras were available then ?

Couldn't find any on youtube ?

maybe this can help :

amazon link

These are personal testimonies that we read and accept without questioning. People are capable of doing a lot of mischeif when the eye in the sky is not watching everything. Why else do you think that security cameras have been heavily installed in work places as well as residential buildings.

[Harsh86_Patel]

Ridiculous comment. It is for YOU to prove mummy in KV62 is not Tutankhamun. You have given NO argument for it not to be, other than to repeat total fabricated nonsense put forward by a UK trash TV pseudo documentary over ten years ago. This nonsense told that Carter had found the tomb in about 1912 and then spent ten years clearing it before arranging some scam. You can believe that, but I, and the rest of the world will not. Do not insult anybody here by putting forward this crap and demanding that I prove it wrong. You show remarkable lack of knowledge abou real AE history. I reccomend you pick up a good book on their history in whatever is your native language. I will not hammer my head against wall like this for your obvious pleasure, and for you to laugh at people wasting their time having to teach you basic history time and time again.

You are again boderlining on being religious about the Issue. You and Carter and many other Egyptologists claim that the mummy is tut's, prove it beyond all reasonable doubt.

Are you even capable of being a skeptic?

Oh so i have insulted your delicate sensitivities by questioning Carter's report. They are personal accounts that you rely on so unquestioningly, that might not be prudent. There is no video evidence of how Carter found the tombs and opened it. Whatever country you live in, please check the validity of such evidence in the presence of counter evidence.

Carter spending ten years to clear the tomb, can be a reason for him to plant a mummy in an empty Sarcophagus.Imagine the dissapointment he must have faced if he found the sarcophagus empty.

What is AE history for you? Is it only based on personel testimonies of these initial adventurers? You and other's like you may be the ultimate insult to the actual AE history, borne out of your willing acceptance of these eye witness testimonies given by foreign adventurers in Egypt.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Harsh86_Patel

[Harsh86_Patel]

Please list out these "small & rather ignorable" attemps to check, analyse and clarify the matter you are referring to.

My understanding is that

1st and foremost reason - cost and scale.The later paharaos/Dynasties couldnt afford to spend more resources on tombs, so the sizes diminshed.

Their attentions would be on more pressing matters of the kingdom like enemies /invaders at the borders, draught and famine etc.

So their attention changed from seeking glory through the pyramids and focussed more real world worries /problems.

If you are also considferign the Nubians Pyramids, then be ifnormed that it wasnt just the Nubian roltyalty who were entombed in the nubian pyramids, every richie rich of those times in nubia could also get a pyramid tomb if they had the moolah.

Ditto to you.

Aside from asking the questions, you are claiming that the GP was built in ancient times predating the egyptians & since you claim you are a person of science, do you have any scientific material/data/records that would back your theory/psotulastes?

What is the purpose of asking you anyway? You never deliver. or deliberately avoid delivering when asked for.

You wont accept anything the academia has written about or have found. You are rigid in your beliefs and so whats the use?

If you can debate and assimilate data, its well & good enough. But if you dont? then , whats the purpose?

Your explanation don't make sense to a lot of people.

You say the art of pyramid building progressed geometrically to the pinnacle observed in the GP and later declined even faster for no provable reasons.

There are no other structures of comparable scale observed in Egypt as the GP.

The structure i.e the GP and Sphinx itself is the evidence for this Ancient culture, predating the mainstream AE dynasties.

We don't need new evidence, look at manetho's list , maybe it was PiTAH (i.e ptah) the father who built the GP.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Harsh86_Patel

[The_Spartan]

Your explanation don't make sense to a lot of people.

You say the art of pyramid building progressed geometrically to the pinnacle observed in the GP and later declined even faster for no provable reasons.

There are no other structures of comparable scale observed in Egypt as the GP.

The structure i.e the GP and Sphinx itself is the evidence for this Ancient culture, predating the mainstream AE dynasties.

We don't need new evidence, look at manetho's list , maybe it was PiTAH (i.e ptah) the father who built the GP.

talk about the GP. Keep Sphinx aside.

Evidence please?

How wonderful of you trying to plug in something smelling of ancient indians with the PITAH/Father stuff and link it to the Ancient Egyptians.

Soon, will you claim link between every god in the Hindu Pantheon with the Egyptian pantheon.??

I guess, naturally, you will be at it soon.

[Harsh86_Patel]

In every field there are experts. If I have a broken leg I see a doctor. If my neighbor sues me I see a lawyer. If my air conditioner stops working, I call an air conditioner shop.

When it comes to scientific and historical matters, I have pretty much the same attitude. The authorities and reporters generally get it about right, with no doubt some reporters going overboard and getting details that don't really matter to me personally screwed up. The prevailing science about something is far more likely to have it about as right as it can be.

We have to remember that the world is full of people with agendas that are served by spreading lies. Often these are personal notions about the world, or derived from religion, or in various other ways generated by a desire that the scientists be wrong. Well, they generally aren't, and science is far more self-correcting than any other human activity.

Would you accept a wrong diagnosis from a Doctor, or would you take secondary opinions? Nowadays most people do their own research of their own diseases as sources are easily available.They also check the medications prescribed by doctors and their side effects for themselves.

Also you can't ignore the law suites filed against so many doctors for administrating wrong treatments that lead to death of the patient.

No need to trust the expert blindly anymore, we are in the information age and we can find out for ourselves.The internet is a boon.

Science will not accept abstract art as an explanation for any hypothesis, in science the evidence is treated more literally i.e If i see a bust with an elongated head and neck then i will deduce that the person's head was bound and the neck elongated using neck rings especially if these practices as still prevalent on the same continent.

Either ways there is not much Science in what we are debating here anyways.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

You are again boderlining on being religious about the Issue. You and Carter and many other Egyptologists claim that the mummy is tut's, prove it beyond all reasonable doubt.

Are you even capable of being a skeptic?

Oh so i have insulted your delicate sensitivities by questioning Carter's report. They are personal accounts that you rely on so unquestioningly, that might not be prudent. There is no video evidence of how Carter found the tombs and opened it. Whatever country you live in, please check the validity of such evidence in the presence of counter evidence.

Carter spending ten years to clear the tomb, can be a reason for him to plant a mummy in an empty Sarcophagus.Imagine the dissapointment he must have faced if he found the sarcophagus empty.

What is AE history for you? Is it only based on personel testimonies of these initial adventurers? You and other's like you may be the ultimate insult to the actual AE history, borne out of your willing acceptance of these eye witness testimonies given by foreign adventurers in Egypt.

Beyond belief! You may suck others into your trap but not me. This is not any form of debate, it is like trying to prove water is wet. If you do not believe reality, then that is your problem. I suspect you deliberately take these bizarre positions because you are bored and want to see other posters banging heads for your amusment. I will not play these stupid idiot games.

Edit to add that I see you still contend that Armarna art is a true likeness of what they looked like, and that as no mummies with deformed heads, long necks and wide hips have been discovered, then the mummies we have are all other people from another time. This is not a rational position to take, and it is not posible, based on your other posts on this matter, to have a debate when you cannot, or will not, live in reality. I cannot take anything you say seriously.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Atentutankh-pasheri

[The_Spartan]

My explanation would make sense to people who use common sense, which is an essential tool.

But what can I say, when it doesn’t make sense to some people, which implies they lack something?

The GP provided no productive value to the Kingdom.

Building Pyramids of the scale of GP was a strain on the country's resources.

When the resources were diverted elsewhere, the scale of the pyramids went down.

That’s my explanation and i consider it as logical enough.

Now, let us hear your illogical explanation?

[SHaYap]

These are personal testimonies that we read and accept without questioning. People are capable of doing a lot of mischeif when the eye in the sky is not watching everything. Why else do you think that security cameras have been heavily installed in work places as well as residential buildings.

you have been studying the way of 'cladking' I see ....

[The_Spartan]

you have been studying the way of 'cladking' I see ....

The way of the CladKing.....brrr..scary thought...

And pray ..dont let the spectre of the Geysers manifest to you!!

[SHaYap]

The way of the CladKing.....brrr..scary thought...

And pray ..dont let the spectre of the Geysers manifest to you!!

eerie isn't it ?

the resemblance ?

I wonder if cladking been giving out tuition ....

[Harsh86_Patel]

you have been studying the way of 'cladking' I see ....

No i get my inspirations from the Skeptics out here....how and what sorts of evidences are demanded. Personel testimonies don't cut the ice.

[Harsh86_Patel]

Beyond belief! You may suck others into your trap but not me. This is not any form of debate, it is like trying to prove water is wet. If you do not believe reality, then that is your problem. I suspect you deliberately take these bizarre positions because you are bored and want to see other posters banging heads for your amusment. I will not play these stupid idiot games.

Edit to add that I see you still contend that Armarna art is a true likeness of what they looked like, and that as no mummies with deformed heads, long necks and wide hips have been discovered, then the mummies we have are all other people from another time. This is not a rational position to take, and it is not posible, based on your other posts on this matter, to have a debate when you cannot, or will not, live in reality. I cannot take anything you say seriously.

You have certainly dissected my motives, but i would say rather inaccurately.I like to discuss the topic so i can evaluate the evidence put up by you fine gentlemen.I want to know the nature of the best available evidence for these so called historical facts.Uptil now i have got precious little then eye witness accounts and baised interpretations.

You are compapring the mummy we found in tut's tomb being tut to water being wet.If your belief is so strong in this then why debate it. Leave it to the Skeptics.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Harsh86_Patel

[SHaYap]

No i get my inspirations from the Skeptics out here....how and what sorts of evidences are demanded. Personel testimonies don't cut the ice.

to repeat one of my first posts to Cladking :

"I'm all for ground breaking research but the ground has got to be there in the first place .... "

In this case ... the ice is a bit too thin for cutting ... its now a puddle

[Harsh86_Patel]

My explanation would make sense to people who use common sense, which is an essential tool.

But what can I say, when it doesn’t make sense to some people, which implies they lack something?

The GP provided no productive value to the Kingdom.

Building Pyramids of the scale of GP was a strain on the country's resources.

When the resources were diverted elsewhere, the scale of the pyramids went down.

That’s my explanation and i consider it as logical enough.

Now, let us hear your illogical explanation?

Finally you come to see the point, the AE would not have wasted so much time and resources for the GP as a tomb.It is evident by the other smaller Pyramids we find actually built by these AE.

[Harsh86_Patel]

to repeat one of my first posts to Cladking :

"I'm all for ground breaking research but the ground has got to be there in the first place .... "

In this case ... the ice is a bit too thin for cutting ... its now a puddle

Lol.....History as we know it is a puddle...It is not an Empirical Science but an interpretation of the past based on consensus of the monopoly club.

Some documents that seem to be a myth are taken at face value whereas others are dismissed as myths etc etc.

I don't wanna start with this again.

[SHaYap]

Finally you come to see the point, the AE would not have wasted so much time and resources for the GP as a tomb.It is evident by the other smaller Pyramids we find actually built by these AE.

glad you like and take Calvin seriously too ....

Lol.....History as we know it is a puddle...It is not an Empirical Science but an interpretation of the past based on consensus of the monopoly club.

Some documents that seem to be a myth are taken at face value whereas others are dismissed as myths etc etc.

I don't wanna start with this again.

~edit : double post bypass

Edited May 6, 2013 by third_eye

[The_Spartan]

Finally you come to see the point, the AE would not have wasted so much time and resources for the GP as a tomb.It is evident by the other smaller Pyramids we find actually built by these AE.

Ok. Now with that viewpoint and reasoning - can you kindly explain why did the ancient Indians take the pains to build the Ajantha and Ellora caves which were carved out of mountains and the Kalilashnath temple in Ellora being carved out of one single rock?? back breaking work it was, wasnt it??

If you doubt that the AEs didnt build the GP just because you doubt that "AE would not have wasted so much time and resources for the GP as a tomb"

tell us your reason for the Ajanta and Ellora caves and we will give you a reason for the GP, in your way.

[Harsh86_Patel]

Ok. Now with that viewpoint and reasoning - can you kindly explain why did the ancient Indians take the pains to build the Ajantha and Ellora caves which were carved out of mountains and the Kalilashnath temple in Ellora being carved out of one single rock?? back breaking work it was, wasnt it??

If you doubt that the AEs didnt build the GP just because you doubt that "AE would not have wasted so much time and resources for the GP as a tomb"

tell us your reason for the Ajanta and Ellora caves and we will give you a reason for the GP, in your way.

The monks were staying there and begging for alms.It was their home.

They were not building tombs.

The temples and sculptors was a form of devotion that they potrayed and also mainly because it attracted Royalty and travellers that gave them alms.

Like i sais that Khufu would rather have built a equally Big Palace to stay in when he was alive.There is no other structure of comparable scale built by the AE that matches the GP.

[The_Spartan]

The monks were staying there and begging for alms.It was their home.

They were not building tombs.

The temples and sculptors was a form of devotion that they potrayed and also mainly because it attracted Royalty and travellers that gave them alms.

Like i sais that Khufu would rather have built a equally Big Palace to stay in when he was alive.There is no other structure of comparable scale built by the AE that matches the GP.

Who are talking about the Monks?

We are talking about the building of the strcutures, carvings and the temples in Ajanta and Ellora caves.

Are you implying that the monks built /carved it all??

No. These structures/carvings were done by specialists. Not by monks. Maybe be the cave paintings could have been done by Monks, but carving the whole caves and temples? No way.

Again, answer the question - Using your same reasoning for the GP, tell us why would the Ancient indians do back breaking work carving out these caves and temples???

Edited May 6, 2013 by The_Spartan

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

You have certainly dissected my motives, but i would say rather inaccurately.

You are compapring the mummy we found in tut's tomb being tut to water being wet.If your belief is so strong in this then why debate it. Leave it to the Skeptics.

And here is another problem. You chose, when it suits you, to not understand comments. Your "inability" to understand my analogy rips away your mask. You are a fraud, you are a contrarian.

So, I play your stupid game one last time about mummy of Tutankhamun. Let us ignore Hawass and any DNA and look at the other evidence. The skull of Tutankhamun is so close to that of the KV55 skeleton that it was clear to all that here we have two closely related people. The lock of hair found with Tutankhamun was, even before DNA, found to link him to Queen Tye in KV35. Even before Tutankhamun was found, the close likeness of the Khonsu statue of Tutankhamun to the face of the prince in KV35 was noted. Then, after Tutankhamun was found, it was clear that the KV35 prince and Tutankhamun were closely related. Then on top of this all the other evidence to link KV62 to KV55 to the 3 mummies in KV35 side chamber. Yet you contend that this is all some scam. If so, then you should say for what purpose and explain how it has been kept a "secret" all these years, known only, of course, to you. Even so, there is no reason to doubt the DNA evidence we have been given to link all the mummies, and Yuya and Thuya and the KV21 mummies as well. Nobody doubts they are all from the same family and that they are the Armarna royal family and recent ancestors. The only controvesy is of racial origins because not all the DNA results have been published and people argue about what we have. But I say again, nobody has any doubts about the family relationship between these people. You say it is all a scam, then the onus is on you to give evidence of this "scam" and to put forward a reason for it being made. The evidence for reality has been presented to you many times, yet you ignore it.You now need to present evidence that what the rest of the world knows to be true, is in fact false. I wait patiently for your evidence. Evidence, not empty words and convolutions, evidence, not yet another argumentum ad ignorantium that you so often employ.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Atentutankh-pasheri

[The_Spartan]

Doubt that he will provide evidence.

That word is an allergy to harsh patel.

Well, i have asked him umpteen times in umpteen posts for evidence

and he is as if he is clearing his ears and saying "I am selectively deaf. Now, what did you say?" Speak Up, i cant hear you"

this plays as if in a loop everytime you ask him for evidence.

Its a greast asset & skill for a fringe proponent.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Doubt that he will provide evidence.

That word is an allergy to harsh patel.

Well, i have asked him umpteen times in umpteen posts for evidence

and he is as if he is clearing his ears and saying "I am selectively deaf. Now, what did you say?" Speak Up, i cant hear you"

this plays as if in a loop everytime you ask him for evidence.

Its a greast asset & skill for a fringe proponent.

He is probably even now having to wiki all the names and KV numbers I quoted because he seems not to know this very basic information.........

[Harsh86_Patel]

And here is another problem. You chose, when it suits you, to not understand comments. Your "inability" to understand my analogy rips away your mask. You are a fraud, you are a contrarian.

So, I play your stupid game one last time about mummy of Tutankhamun. Let us ignore Hawass and any DNA and look at the other evidence. The skull of Tutankhamun is so close to that of the KV55 skeleton that it was clear to all that here we have two closely related people. The lock of hair found with Tutankhamun was, even before DNA, found to link him to Queen Tye in KV35. Even before Tutankhamun was found, the close likeness of the Khonsu statue of Tutankhamun to the face of the prince in KV35 was noted. Then, after Tutankhamun was found, it was clear that the KV35 prince and Tutankhamun were closely related. Then on top of this all the other evidence to link KV62 to KV55 to the 3 mummies in KV35 side chamber. Yet you contend that this is all some scam. If so, then you should say for what purpose and explain how it has been kept a "secret" all these years, known only, of course, to you. Even so, there is no reason to doubt the DNA evidence we have been given to link all the mummies, and Yuya and Thuya and the KV21 mummies as well. Nobody doubts they are all from the same family and that they are the Armarna royal family. The only controvesy is of racial origins because not all the DNA results have been published and people argue about what we have. But I say again, nobody has any doubts about the family relationship between these people. You say it is all a scam, then the onus is on you to give evidence of this "scam" and to put forward a reason for it being made. The evidence for reality has been presented to you many times, yet you ignore it.You now need to present evidence that what the rest of the world knows to be true, is in fact false. I wait patiently for your evidence. Evidence, not empty words and convolutions, evidence....

Let me educate you on how a Skeptic thinks:

1.Carter was specifically looking for Tut, before he found anything. Pray tell me how he knew of Tut, relying on what evidence? Manetho's list and pottery shards?:

Under the commission of George Herbert, 5th Earl of Carnarvon, who is commonly called just Lord Carnarvon, Howard Carter and his team set out to Egypt in 1922 to discover the tomb of Tutankhamun, and because of other recent discoveries during that time in a particular area of the Valley of the Kings, Carter believed he had a good idea of where he would find it.^[2] Theodore M. Davis, a contemporary archeologist of Carter, discovered pottery with Tutankhamun's name a short distance from where Carter would on November 4, 1922 discover KV62

2.We yet don't know the exact period of his Reign:

Although most Egyptologists agree^{[citation needed]} that Tutankhamun was the 11th pharaoh during the 18th Dynasty of the New Kingdom, what is still not exactly clear is to the exact dates of his reign. An educated estimate is that he ruled over Ancient Egypt from about 1346-1355 BCE.^[4] After an initial examination of the 3,300 year old mummy, it was estimated that Tutankhamun was a teenager of approximately 17–19 years of age when he died.

3.Tut's mummification was different from those observed of other Kings, or maybe Carter was having his fun i.e the penis was missing:

In 1968, R. G. Harrison, a professor of anatomy, used a portable x-ray machine to get a better look at the internal structures of the mummy to better determine age and cause of death of Tutankhamun. One of the most abnormal findings was the sternum (breastbone) and most parts of the frontal ribs were missing. Removing these bones was not part of the normal mummification process, which lead Harrison to believe they might have been removed because they were badly damaged before his death. Harrison quickly discovered that Carter was not as careful as many of his personal notes had claimed. The mummy was not re-wrapped after 1926, which led to more deterioration due to the extremely hot external elements over the forty-two years. Also many of the limbs had been amputated in the body in order to remove some of the jewelry. Both hands were cut off, both legs were removed from the pelvis, and the head was severed from the body in order to get the mask off. Even more remarkable is the king's right ear and penis were missing, but photographs from Carter show they were both present during his examination

4.The DNA evidence as you claim only helps to establish some sort of relation with other mummies, it is not determinative of the Mummy being TUT:

From September 2007 to October 2009, 11 royal mummies of the New Kingdom's 18th Dynasty have undergone extensive genetic and radiological testing. A team of doctors, under the leadership of Dr. Zahi Hawass, took DNA samples from bone tissue of the 11 mummies to determine a family pedigree and to determine if any familial, pathological diseases caused Tutankhamun's death. The study was able to provide a 5-generation pedigree, and the KV55 mummy and KV35YL mummy were identified as Tutankhamun's parents. KV55 is believed to have contained the body of Ahkenhaten and in KV35, a young lady mummy was discovered and believed to be either Kiya or Nefertiti. It was discovered that Tutankhamun's family had a large number of irregularities. Four of the mummies, including Tut, were shown to have hadMalaria tropica. Based on all the data, the study concluded the most likely cause of death for the young king was the combination of avascular necrosis and Malaria. The fact that a cane and Ancient Egyptian-style medicines were found in the tomb backed up Hawass's claim that Tutankhamun suffered from a walking impairment.^[9]

Basis the evidence we have specially the DNA evidence, it can only be said (you have to trust Hawass as he was the leader of the sampling procedure) that the group of mummies in the tomb may have been related.

No TUT and Nefritiri written on the DNA strands.Carter was looking for Tut before he started his search and after ten years he had to find TUT in the sarcophagus.

Now if this mummy being TUT was a scientific hypothesis then there would be riders for the falsification of the same. But you have set no such riders in your mind. have you? I am sure even Carter didn't.Secondly in case of scientific thinking, first validating the existence of a Ancient King and then looking for evidence to support your conclusion is a bad method and often leads to baised interpretations and temptations of Manipulation of the evidence to conform to your predetermined views.But nevermind all this, you can think of me as you want, maybe you will sleep better at night after dismissing me as a Contrarian etc.

http://en.wikipedia....mun's_mummy

P.S.-->It's surprising that experts are so careful before asserting that it was TUT and use words like "believed to be" but you are convinced. Not a very skeptical attitude.

Also i would like to bring to your notice my original doubt i.e. We can be mistaken of the identities of these Pharoahs.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Harsh86_Patel

[Harsh86_Patel]

He is probably even now having to wiki all the names and KV numbers I quoted because he seems not to know this very basic information.........

Don't need your help to find things on Wiki.....though you should spend some more time on Wiki and study the careful language of the experts and words like "maybe" "believed to be" "can be" "should be", to better understand us Skeptics.

Wiki refferences or any other i give, is because some people (like Spartan) ask for refferences and proofs for every statement i make.

Was not used to such a methodology previously.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Harsh86_Patel