Clarakore Posted April 28, 2013 Author #76 Share Posted April 28, 2013 (edited) I dug in and here is additional information for previously made claims. It will undoubtedly please you to hear I’m writing this wearing jackboots and very old camouflage pants, because I find old uniforms both comfortable and comforting.Anti-Semite Croats? You are either lying, either talking about things you don’t know much about. How little changes in Croatia... Ante Starcevic (1823-1896), called by many Croats "the Father of the Fatherland", was an anti-Semite. He also wanted to supress the rights of minorities. He was also against the unity of Southern Slavs, the same as Croats in the 1990s who were so eager to leave Yugoslavia. We should remember that in the 1990s it was not just a story of Serbs from Serbia who came to help Serbs in Croatia who did not want to leave, it was also Serbs who had lived in Croatia for hundreds of years who wanted to remain part of Yugoslavia and not break away. Vukovar had similar numbers of Serbs and Croats, should the Serbs who wanted to remain in Yugoslavia just be ignored because jackbooted thugs say otherwise, jackbooted thugs who still hate Serbs, who still want to suppress Serbs, to this very day? Back to Ante Starcevic and the 1800s... According to Croatian historians M. Gross and I. Goldstein, Starčević was a racist and an anti-Semite. His understanding of the basic human rights and the way he linked them to the civil liberties were extremely primitive and selective.<snip> Starčević had based his ideological views on writings of those ancient Greek writers who thought that some people, by their very nature, are slaves, for they had "just half of the human mind" and, for that reason, they "shall be governed by people of the human nature". About the people and nations which he saw as cursed and lower ranked races - he spoke as of the animal breeds and uses the "breed" word to mark them. He wrote a whole tractate about the Jews that could be summarized in a few sentences: "Jews ... are the breed, except a few, without any morality and without any homeland, the breed of which every unit strives to its personal gain, or to its relatives' gain. To let the Jews to participate in public life is dangerous: throw a piece of mud in a glass of the clearest water - then all the water will be puddled. That way the Jews spoiled and poisoned the French people too much". For Starčević, there was a race worse than the Jews. For him, the "Slavoserb" notion was firstly of a political nature: the "Slavoserbs" are his political opponents who "sold themselves to a foreign rule". Then all those who favorably look on the South Slavs unity not regarding them (the South Slavs) as the Croats. <snip> Further, he claimed that the injustice was done to different "cursed breeds" what spoiled those breeds even more and made them "to be vengeful against their oppressors". As a convinced racist, he stresses that to the "cursed breeds", i.e. to the lower races should not be given any role in the public life. Ante Starčević Can we guess what the highest currency note that exists today in Croatia? The 1000 kuna. Can we guess who is depicted on the 1000 kuna? Ante Starcevic. What a place of honor for an anti-Semite... Ante Starcevic was also the founder of the Ustasha but is warmly honored in Croatia today. Imagine if Germany today had dollar bills with Hitler? Global Research traces Croatian plans to ethnically cleanse Serbs all the way back to 1848. (link) Herehttp://hr.wikipedia....'u_narodima is the list of Croatian Righteous Among the Nations. 102 Croats were honored with this title by the state of Israel. Here is a list of the 131 Serbian Rightous Among the Nations. Let us be honest now, while both 109 Croats (the list has been updated) and 131 Serbs who have been honored by Israel for helping the Jews deserve recognition, all made sacrifices, the Croats had to actually harbor and keep the Jews they helped away from both the Nazis and the majority of their own fellow Croatians who supported the Ustasha, and on the other hand the Serbs who helped the Jews had to keep them away from the Germans and a few Serb collaborators. Let us really be honest now. The Serbs and the Croats welcomed the Nazis in different fashions. While the Germans began bombing the Serbs in Belgrade on 6 April 1941 just four days later on April 10, "Croatia warmly welcomed the Germans, meeting them in their finest clothes, and throwing candies and flowers on the invading tanks," in Zagreb. According to official United States Army history, as loyal Yugoslavians soldiers were being deployed all across the country to help defend all of Yugoslavia from the German invasion (with help from the Croatian third column), "thousands of Croat reservists did not report as directed for military service," so they could welcome the Nazis instead. Thousands of Croat traitors acted just like their countrymen who have always conspired to betray the rest of Yugoslavia. Let us rewind to the month before, in March 1941. On 27 March 1941 the Serbs, via loyal Royal Yugoslavian Air Force officers, overthrew their own government because the traitorous , "Cvetković government had signed the Vienna Protocol on the Accession of Yugoslavia to the Tripartite Pact. (link) Meanwhile the Croats were busy making: "a declaration, made on 31 March 1941 and signed on 5 May 1941, in which Ustaše requested the declaration of a Croatian state. The document also sought German support, protection and recognition among Axis nations." (link) This is the scene in August 1942: Increased anti-Semitic restrictions in Bulgaria and the recent warning by the government that all the Jews in the country would be concentrated in two ghettos have resulted in 2,000 Bulgarian Jews fleeing the country to Serbia, where they have joined the Chetnik guerrillas of Gen. Draja Mihailovitch, it was reliably reported here today.At present, thousands of Yugoslavian Jews are fighting with the Chetniks and several of the commanders of Mihailovitch's detachments are Jewish. It has been reported that Jewish newspapers are published by these groups. Two Thousand Bulgarian Jews Reported Fighting with Chetniks in Serbia The WWII Partisan (antifascist) movement was communist but it was also Croatian in origin.Study the WWII in ex-Yugoslavia before you continue this thread. Start with formation of first anti-fascist unit near Sisak, in Croatia, on June 22nd 1941, before US decided which side they’ll take, by the way. No offence to Americans, I like colourful figures of speech. Yes, 1 Serb was also among this group, but overall the Partisans were multi-national Communists of all ethnic groups. They were communist who were not loyal to Yugoslavia, communists who had received training from the Soviets and Spanish socialists long before the war began in preparation to betray their own country. From 1931 til 1939, the USSR prepared Communists for the partisan war in Yugoslavia. On the eve of the war, hundreds of future prominent Yugoslav communist leaders completed special "partisan courses" organized by the Soviet military intelligence in the Soviet Union and Spain Yugoslavian Front: Early Resistance The Chetniks were loyal to Royal Yugoslavia and Royal Yugoslavia was not drawing plans to attack others before WWII, they were not making plans to divide the country up, those were the plans the majority of the Croats made, who welcomed the Nazi tanks with flower and candies. Let us not pretend the Partisans were nice guys either, they were willing to hand over Royal Yugoslavia to the international communist movement, and they did horrible things both during and after the war. Maybe you did not learn this in your Tito-censored schools. Our American press was sure to report it. After the discovery of masses of human bones in secret graves in caves here and nearby over the last two weeks, a series of witnesses have come forward to report seeing large-scale shootings 45 years ago, painting a grisly picture of mass murder by the Communist Partisans led by Marshal Tito.The revelations are certain to produce an emotional re-evaluation of the Partisans, of Marshal Tito and of the Communist Government he dominated for 35 years until his death in 1980. <snip> The fighting pitted Germans, Italians and other occupation forces, allied with a Croatian fascist movement called the Ustashi, which governed a puppet state, against the Partisans and the Serbian royalist Chetnik movement. The Partisans and Chetniks fought against each other as well as against the Ustashi and the foreign invaders. The evidence of the Partisan atrocities lies in masses of human bones found at the bottom of caves in Slovenia and Croatia and statements by witnesses who, after 45 years of frightened silence, have come forward. ''I drove a busload of wounded Croatian soldiers from Holy Spirit Hospital in Zagreb to Sosice in the last half of May 1945, after the war ended,'' said Branko Mulic, a 79-year-old ex-Partisan. He disclosed the site of a mass grave in a cave near Sosice, a Croatian village. ''I watched Partisan officers line them up and, one by one, bring them to the hole in the roof of the cave, shoot them in the back of the head and let their bodies fall into the pile at the bottom. The officers alternated who did the shooting so their guns would not overheat,'' Mr. Mulic said. <snip> The Sosice cave is just one of several known sites where Communist Partisans settled accounts with members of the Ustasi, who themselves were responsible for mass killings of Serbs, Jews and gypsies during the war. But historians and witnesses say most of the Partisans' victims in 1945 were Croats, Slovenes and Serbs drafted into armies allied with the Axis occupation forces and members of the Chetnik movement. In addition to combat personnel, nurses, nuns and children were killed. Since the news of the Sosice cave broke in Croatia last week, people from throughout Yugoslavia have been telephoning Vjesnik to report mass graves and massacre sites, said Silvije Tomasevic, a Vjesnik editor. Historians have estimated that the Partisans shot from 70,000 to 100,000 people without trial within weeks of the war's end. <snip> Most of the victims were people who fled or were trying to flee at the end of the war, Mr. Bekic said. They were returned by British troops from detention camps in Austria or were turned back at the border by British troops occupying southern Austria and northeastern Italy, Mr. Bekic said. <snip> To underpin its legitimacy, it fostered an image of Marshal Tito and the Partisans as humane, heroic liberators of all of Yugoslavia's people from fascism and nationalism. ''When I heard that Partisans carried out the killings, it made my head spin because it went against everything I heard in school,'' said Nikola Hranilovic, a Sosice resident who said he learned of the killings years ago but kept silent because he feared the police. ''I always heard that the Partisans fought for our side and for our people. It never became clear to me why they did this to women and men who were forced to join the army.'' Evolution in Europe; Piles of Bones in Yugoslavia Point to Partisan Massacres in order to get at least basic clue about the complexity of WWII.It’s not black and white as you would like it to be. It’s mostly red, as blood of all European nations shed for no ****en good reason and I’ll be damned if I let you blacken the memory of my ancestors, regardless of the insignia they wore at the moment of their untimely death. Was there Croatian-operated death camp? Yes. Jasenovac. Members of my mostly anti-fascist family died there too. Was there Serb-operated death camp? Yes. Banjica, near Belgrade. Jews first, Roma next, then the anti-fascist too. Learn before you speak, Britney. Of course it was not black and white. There is plenty of nuance but we can be sure that majority of Croats wanted their own country, the majority of Serbs were fine sharing, and when it comes to death camps the Croats did not need Nazi collaborators to run them, they were happy to do it on their own, while the single Serb death camp you call was a German and Serb collaborator (traitor) ran camp, later the traitors ran it on their own, but the majority of Serbs did not particpate, support, or desire Nazis to be on their land while the majority of Croats welcomed them with open arms. During the World War Two, Nazis have executed and sent to concentration camps many Jews and Serbs. The most notorious concentration camp was managed by Croatia.<snip> Ambassador Koll said that hate, racism, xenophobia and anti-Semitism still exist “as if history has taught us nothing”, however, the Ambassador cited the example of Serbs as acts of heroism that should be “like a lighthouse showing the way to a better future.” Israel awards Serbs Righteous among the Nations Could you tell me what happened to Serbian Jews? You know what happened. Nazis and the few Serbian traitors who helped them exterminated them. Many were sent to Croatia and died in Croat hands. "It must have been a sad day when the German Gestapo commando in Serbia, Emanuel Schäfer, "cabled Berlin after last Jews were killed in May 1942: "Serbien ist judenfrei."" "Serbia is clean of Jews," was the message... Germany carved up Yugoslavia with most of it going to the fascist Independent State of Croatia, who established the notorious Jasenovac concentration camp to exterminate the Serbs, Roma and Jews of Yugoslavia. In Serbia government of Milan Nedić established concentration camps and extermination policies of its own.The Nazi genocide against Yugoslav Jews began in April 1941. The state of Serbia was completely occupied by the Nazis. The main race laws in the State of Serbia were adopted on 30 April 1941: the Legal Decree on Racial Origins (Zakonska odredba o rasnoj pripadnosti). Jews from Syrmia were sent to Croatian camps, as were many Jews from other parts of Serbia. In rump Serbia, Germans proceeded to round up Jews of Banat and Belgrade, setting up a concentration camp across the river Sava, in the Syrmian part of Belgrade, then given to Independent State of Croatia. The camp, Sajmište, was established to process and eliminate the captured Jews and Serbs. As a result, Emanuel Schäfer, commander of the Security Police and Gestapo in Serbia, famously cabled Berlin after last Jews were killed in May 1942: "Serbien ist judenfrei." Similarly Harald Turner of the SS, stated in 1942 that:"Serbia is the only country in which the Jewish question and the Gypsy question has been solved." By the time Serbia and Yugoslavia were liberated in 1944, most of the Serbian Jewry had been murdered. Of the 82,500 Jews of Yugoslavia alive in 1941, only 14,000 (17%) survived the Holocaust. Of the Serbian Jewish population of 16,000, Serbian Nazi puppet government of Milan Nedić, Ministry of Interior, police and secret services murdered approximately 14,500. Historian Christopher Browning who attended the conference on the subject of Holocaust and Serbian involvement stated: “Serbia was the only country outside Poland and the Soviet Union where all Jewish victims were killed on the spot without deportation, and was the first country after Estonia to be declared ‘Judenfrei,’” a term used by the Nazis during the Holocaust to denote an area free of all Jews. History of the Jews in Serbia; The Holocaust Even before the war broke out the Yugoslavians tried to help the Jews. Yugoslav policy was not anti-Semitic: for instance, Yugoslavia opened its borders to Austrian Jews following the Anschluss. Under increasing pressure to yield to German demands for safe passage of its troops to Greece, Yugoslavia signed the Tripartite Pact with Germany and Italy, like Bulgaria and Hungary. Unlike the other two, however, the signatory government of Maček and Cvetković was overthrown three days later in a British-supported coup of patriotic, anti-German generals.The new government immediately rescinded the Yugoslav signature on the Pact and called for strict neutrality. German response was swift and brutal: Belgrade was bombed without the declaration of war on 6 April 1941 and German, Italian, Hungarian and Bulgarian troops invaded Yugoslavia. History of the Jews in Serbia This is what the Jerusalem Post has to report regarding the long history of the Serbs and Jews as friends. From the start, the relationship between Serbs and Jews was shaped by a sense of humanity. In the 14th century, Jews fleeing persecution in Hungary found refuge in the Serbian kingdom.And even after Serbia was defeated by the Ottoman Turks in 1389 and subsequently subjugated, the Serbs nonetheless welcomed Spanish and Portuguese Jews who were exiled from Iberia a century later. The Serbian town of Zemun, on the outskirts of Belgrade, played an important role in the Zionist movement. Rabbi Shlomo Alkalai, an early religious-Zionist visionary, preached there in the 19th century, and a Jewish couple grew up there whose grandson, Theodor Herzl, would later alter the course of Jewish history. More recently, during the Holocaust, Jews and Serbs found themselves the targets of their Croatian fascist neighbors, the Ustashe, who were allied with Hitler and proved to be energetic executioners. The Ustashe slaughtered tens of thousands of Jews and more than half a million Serbs in an orgy of violence and terror that left deep scars throughout the region. That sense of shared suffering is one that Serbs continue to feel towards Jews, and it underlines their strong sense of solidarity with Israel and the challenges that it faces. Indeed, in a August 3 interview I conducted with Serbian Ambassador to Israel Zoran Basaraba, which appeared in The Jerusalem Post , he highlighted what he described as “a natural affinity” between Serbs and Jews. This affinity, he believes, can serve as the basis for further enhancing ties between the two peoples. Serbia: Lost and Found Here is what Israeli Ambassador Koll had to to say about the Serbs today followed by thoughts from ex-Serb President Tadic. "Just this month, here in Novi Sad, an attempt to raise the Nazi flag occurred, the flag of hatred and xenophobia. In this case, the reaction of both the democratic authorities and the public was impressive. Several thousand citizens of Serbia rose up and said, there is no place for racism in our town," the ambassador reminded.When President Boris Tadić addressed the gathering, he expressed his sense of pride over the fact that Serbians were among those to help the persecuted Jewish population during the war, adding that Serbia will not allow for inhumanity of that kind to ever again take place on its soil. Israel honors Serbia's "righteous among the nations" Here is what former American ambassador/Under Secretary of State Eizenstat had to say about Croatia last year in Jerusalem. Eizenstat, who gave a wide-ranging interview to Haaretz while attending the President's Conference in Jerusalem yesterday, noted that Croatia's president, Ivo Josipovic, was also in attendance. He said Josipovic must go beyond his apology, issued last February, for his country's role in the crimes committed against the Jews during the Second World War. He called on him to commence with a restitution program and the formation of an independent commission of international scholars to examine the country's wartime past."Neither one of those is being done right now with respect to Croatia," said Eizenstat, who has negotiated agreements with Switzerland, Germany, Austria, France and other European countries with regard to restitution of property, compensation for slavery, recovery of looted art and bank accounts, and payment of insurance policies for Holocaust victims. According to the Yad Vashem's website, 30,000 of Croatia's Jews died during the Holocaust - 80 percent of the country's Jewish population. EU should hold countries seeking membership accountable for Holocaust roles, says U.S. diplomat "Today there are approximately 1,700 Jews in Serbia and Montenegro, mainly in Serbia's capital city of Belgrade." (link) "The 2001 Croatian census listed only 495 Jews, with 323 in Zagreb. Approximately 20 Jews each live in Primorje-Gorski Kotar County, Osijek and Dubrovnik" (link) "Ever since the 13th century there has been a recorded Jewish community of both Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews in the city of Belgrade. The first Jews to settle in the city originally arrived from Italy and the city of Dubrovnik, and later on from Hungary and Spain.[3] The Jewish community developed substantially before and after World War I following the religious autonomy they have received, and many Jewish educational institutions and synagogues for both the Ashkenazi and Sephardic communities were established. By the year 1939 there were approximately 10,400 Jews living in Belgrade." (link) Serbs never put Jews in medieval ghettos (they existed then too as did pogroms) but always had friendly relations but even in the distant past the Croats did put Jews in ghettos which were only freed after Napoleon came and made it happen. Anti-semitism on the other hand existed in Croatia because of, "the attitudes of the Catholic Church and on Venetian law (which applied at the time), was a constant issue for the community, which lived in ghettos in Dubrovnik and Split." (link) Of course some will falsely claim it was not the Croatians choice, but they were Catholic, and intolerant, they learned it well from their medieval Catholic friends, and kept at and still some are it seems in this case of suppressing minority rights in Vukovar today. Edited April 28, 2013 by Leave Britney alone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarakore Posted April 28, 2013 Author #77 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Part 2. No, chetniks were not anti-fascists, they were Serbian quisling forces, I will elaborate that for the umpteenth time if the tread continues. The Chetniks had no death camps that they ran, the Ustasha did. You’re lying again.Majority of Croats were on the left, partisan side. All Ustashe were exterminated after the war and still the majority of Croats survived. Do your math. Of course the winning Partisans who won the war with the help of the West slaughtered as many Chetniks and Ustasha after the war. How many went into hiding? How many of their grandkids pulled out the Ustasha uniforms in the 1990s? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chetniks Bolded part is quoted from Wiki: During World War II, the Chetniks were an anti-Axis movement in their long-range goals and engaged in marginal resistance activities for limited periods,[4] but also carried out almost throughout the war a tactical or selectivecollaboration with the occupation.[5] The Chetnik movement[6] adopted a policy of collaboration[7] with regard to the Axis Powers, and engaged in cooperation to one degree or another by establishing modus vivendi or operating as "legalised" auxiliary forces under Axis control.[8][9][10][11] Over a period of time, and in different parts of the country, the Chetnik movement was progressively[12] drawn into collaboration agreements: first with theNedić forces in the Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia,[13] then with the Italians in occupied Dalmatiaand Montenegro, with some of the Ustaše forces in northern Bosnia, and after the Italian capitulation also with theGermans directly.[14] The Chetniks collaborated extensively and systematically with the Italian occupation forces until the Italian capitulation in September 1943, and beginning in 1944, portions of the Chetnik movement of Draža Mihailović collaborated openly with the Germans and Ustaša forces in Serbia and Croatia."[7] The Chetniks were a partner in the pattern of terror and counter terror that developed in Yugoslavia during World War II. The Chetniks used terror tactics against the Croats in areas where Serbs and Croats were intermixed, against the Muslim population in Bosnia, Herzegovina and Sandžak, and against the Yugoslav Partisans and their supporters in all areas. These terror tactics took various forms, including killing of the civilian population, burning of villages, assassinations and destruction of property. The terror tactics used by the Chetniks against the Croats was largely a reaction against the mass terror perpetrated by the Ustaše, and the terror against the Partisans and their supporters was ideologically-driven. The Muslim population of Bosnia, Herzegovina and Sandžak was a primary target of Chetnik terror due to the traditional animosity between Serbs and Muslims, but this action was also undertaken to 'cleanse' these areas of Muslims in order to create a 'Greater Serbia' free of non-Serbs.[16] Several modern Serbian paramilitary organizations, formed in the 1990s after the breakup of Yugoslavia, chose the name "Chetniks", and consider themselves to be the continuation of the Chetnik legacy. There are also numerous Serbian civilian organisations at home and in the diaspora that drawn upon the history of the Chetnik movement. I lowered the font on most of what you have cut and pasted so you could see the most relevant part, it is right there toward the begining, and says, "...the Chetniks were an anti-Axis movement in their long-range goals and engaged in marginal resistance activities for limited periods." That seems pretty straightforward to me. I don't know why anyone would include a yellow smiley in this thread. Or ask others to "work with them" on this thread as if the truth requires carefully deciding what information should be stated. In the end here are the death tolls by ethnicity: In 1964 the estimated deaths stood at 346,740 Serbs, 83,257 Croats, and 32,300 Muslims. The Croatian Information Centre themselves provide the following estimations: 487,000 Serbs, 207,000 Croats, and 86,000 Muslims. Again this was revised also by the Croatian Information Centre to 530,000 Serbs, 192,000, and 103,000 Muslims. Others from different ethnicties also died. Sadly even if it was chaotic and everyone killed everyone it was the Serbs who suffered the most due to the original old-age Croatian conspiracy against Yugoslavia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted April 28, 2013 #78 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Tell you what, activist, you can keep weeping over goddamned ex-Yugoslavia as much as you like, you can continue whitewashing of Greater Serbian crimes, you can continue falsifying history and selling chetniks as good guys but the Serboslavia is dead. You can't have it back. You can't have portions of territories, you can't have your ethnic cleansing blessed as justified. Croatia has survived nearly 100 years of Greater Serbian terror and attemps to destroy Croatian identity. You, Britney, are seriously overestimating yourself if you think you'll succeed where whole empires have failed. Not only I don't feel like feeding your trolling today but I also start to feel genuinely offended with your chauvinism. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarakore Posted April 28, 2013 Author #79 Share Posted April 28, 2013 (edited) Tell you what, activist, you can keep weeping over goddamned ex-Yugoslavia as much as you like, you can continue whitewashing of Greater Serbian crimes, you can continue falsifying history and selling chetniks as good guys but the Serboslavia is dead. You can't have it back. You can't have portions of territories, you can't have your ethnic cleansing blessed as justified. Croatia has survived nearly 100 years of Greater Serbian terror and attemps to destroy Croatian identity. You, Britney, are seriously overestimating yourself if you think you'll succeed where whole empires have failed. Not only I don't feel like feeding your trolling today but I also start to feel genuinely offended with your chauvinism. No one wants to return to those days. U mom srcu ja sam serbeen = In my heart I am a Serb. So I want the best for Serbs but that also means I want the best for Croats and Bosniaks too regardless of who was the greater agressor in the past. Some might want to make pesonal and pointed attacks (e.g., accusations of trolling, chauvinism, and well worst things have been said here that have hurt me) but there is no need for that or taunts towards Serbs over lost land, please stop, I have yet to make one single negative remark toward a fellow poster here. Instead of wasting energy over old grudges it is time to heal. The younger generations deserve it. What we need is democracy and respect for minority rights. What we need is allowing all ethnic groups to share cities, towns, and villages. What we need is for all of ex-Yugoslavia to be admitted to the EU and find stability. What we need is more mental health services for the veterans. VUKOVAR, Croatia (AP) — Edin Kapidzic fought in Croatia's brutal war for independence and came out alive. Carrying on in peace turned out to be harder. Years after returning from the front lines, the former soldier from eastern Croatia hanged himself in a park in the hometown he defended during the 1991-95 conflict, part of the wider disintegration of the former Yugoslavia. Kapidzic left behind a wife and four children. But no suicide note. He was among nearly 2,000 Croatian war veterans who have killed themselves since war ended in the Balkan country of 4.2 million, which is now slated to join the European Union. An estimated 1,000 people commit suicide each year in Croatia, of whom 100 to 120 are the so-called Croatian defenders, or those who took part in the war, according to official statistics. The numbers, experts warn, are likely to swell as former fighters grow older and feel even less needed by a society eager to forget the conflict and move on. The crushing stresses faced by veterans of Balkans wars grabbed international attention last week when a former Serb soldier killed 13 people in a pre-dawn rampage in central Serbia — a massacre his family linked to haunting memories of war in Croatia. Such an extreme response to the psychological trauma brought on by combat is rare. But depression and suicides among Balkan veterans are becoming more prevalent. "I get this feeling that I am no longer wanted in this world and that I should leave it," said Mato Matijevic, a wartime ambulance driver who has survived one suicide attempt. "Just to leave everything and go." Across the Balkans, tens of thousands of war veterans from the ethnic conflicts of the 1990s' have had trouble fitting back into society upon return from the battlefields of the former Yugoslavia — the stage of Europe's worst carnage since World War II. Thousands of former fighters have experienced symptoms of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder — or PTSD — including anger and depression; many have turned to alcohol and drugs; in the worst cases they take their own lives or commit violence against those around them. In last week's tragedy, Ljubisa Bogdanovic's victims included his mother, his adult son and a 2-year-old cousin. He turned the gun on himself and his wife, who survived; Bogdanovic died two days later. The gunman was described by neighbors as helpful and quiet, but his brother said he was tormented by the war. His wife reportedly told doctors he used to beat her and his son. Balkan veterans often speak of survivor's guilt. "You dream of your dead friends, those who died on your hands, or you dream of the people you killed," said Tomislav Galovic, a 43-year-old veteran from the Croatian capital, Zagreb. "There is no way to explain." Croatia's veterans have committed suicide in public places; some blew themselves up or burned themselves alive. Such acts are often seen as a cry for help from an increasingly indifferent society or state. One veteran used a Croatian flag to hang himself — an apparent message that he felt betrayed by the country he fought for. Post-combat psychological trauma is common among soldiers around the world. Ex-fighters in the Balkans often face the further burden of severe financial problems that make a return to normal life even more difficult. Many war veterans find themselves on the margins of society, coping on their own. Matijevic, the former military ambulance driver, said that "the most traumatic moments are when I see on television how we, the defenders suffer, unable to fulfill our rights." Dressed in a combat-style green jacket, his head clean-shaven, the tough-looking veteran said he left a construction job in Switzerland in 1991 to fight for his homeland. Matijevic now lives with his wife and daughter in a small house in an ethnically-mixed village in eastern Croatia — bitter over how things turned out for him and his country. "They told us Croatia would become like Switzerland," he said, "but it is nowhere close to it." Across the border in Serbia, veterans from the 1998-99 war in Kosovo have turned to the European Court of Human Rights to seek back pay from the state for the time they spent fighting, including the 78-day NATO bombardment of the country. More than 4,000 former soldiers in Bosnia have committed suicide since the end of the conflict in 1995, according to the veterans' association. There, Muslim Bosnian war veterans, who fought Serbs during the war, contributed money to a fund for their former enemies, who are now burdened by the same lack of jobs and income. According to the World Bank, less than 15 percent of all veteran-related benefits in Bosnia have actually ended up in the hands of those most in need. Dragan Sajic, who heads an association of PTSD civilian and veteran patients in the northern Bosnian town of Banja Luka, said that "often, after medical treatment, a patient returns to the same environment and conditions — unemployment and lack of hope for a better future." In Croatia's former front line town of Vukovar, rows of white crosses and candles honor those fallen in the war that killed 10,000 people. A permanent fire burns at the quiet memorial complex, nestled among pine trees. Kapidzic's tombstone in nearby Borovo features his portrait and the dates of his birth and death at age 43. His friend and fellow veteran, Enver Arnautovic, said Kapidzic had started drinking heavily and taking pills about one year before committing suicide. "His hair and beard started to fall off," Aranutovic recalled. "But the doctors told me his problem wasn't just the alcohol." Mirjana Krizmanic, a psychology professor at Zagreb University admits that "we can't really figure out why." "Once they commit suicide," he said, "you can no longer find out the reason." ______ Associated Press Writers Jovana Gec, from Belgrade, Serbia; Irena Knezevic, from Banja Luka, Bosnia; and Nebi Qena, from Pristina, Kosovo, contributed. Serbia massacre puts spotlight on Balkan vet woes A 60-year-old war veteran has shot dead 13 people in Serbia, including a baby, in a pre-dawn house-to-house rampage before trying to kill himself and his wife.Ljubisa Bogdanovic, used a handgun in the attacks at five houses in Velika Ivanca, a village 30 miles from Belgrade. The dead included six women, several of them his relatives. The killer and his wife survived, but with serious injuries. Villagers described the suspect as having been a nice, quiet man. They said he first killed his son before leaving the house and then began shooting his neighbours, some of whom were still asleep. "He knocked on the doors and as they were opened he just fired a shot," said Radovan Radosavljevic. "He was a good neighbour and anyone would open their doors to him. I don't know what happened." Another neighbour Milovan Kostadinovic said Bogdanovic was caught by a police patrol while on the way to his house. "If they didn't stop him, he would have wiped us all out," Mr Kostadinovic said. He shot himself when police stopped him." Serbian police chief Milorad Veljovic said 12 people were killed immediately between 5am and 5.30am and one person died in a Belgrade hospital. "We are all caught by surprise," he said. "Most of the victims were shot while asleep." He said the motive for the killings was unknown. Bogdanovic lost his job last year and had fought as a Serb volunteer soldier in the war in Croatia in 1992. Bogdanovic fought in Vukovar, the eastern Croatian town that was destroyed in a massive Serbian-led army offensive - the scene of the worst bloodshed during Croatia's 1991-95 war for independence. Although such shootings are rare in Serbia, weapons are readily available, mostly from the 1990s wars in the Balkans. Initial reports said the suspect had a licence for the handgun. Serbian Prime Minister Ivica Dacic said the killings should serve as a warning for the government to pay more attention to gun control laws and other social problems facing the country, which is still reeling from the wars. Serbia's last mass shooting was in 2007, when a 39-year-old man gunned down nine people and injured two others in an eastern village. Gunman kills 13 in village rampage The toll in continuing hate is too great and haunts both sides even now. Edited April 28, 2013 by Leave Britney alone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted April 29, 2013 #80 Share Posted April 29, 2013 (edited) No one wants to return to those days. U mom srcu ja sam serbeen = In my heart I am a Serb. So I want the best for Serbs but that also means I want the best for Croats and Bosniaks too regardless of who was the greater agressor in the past. Funny how you work hard on instigating new war if you want peace. Even funnier how Serbs “generously” declare it unimportant who caused more deaths when there are mass graves blocking their way to EU. Some might want to make pesonal and pointed attacks (e.g., accusations of trolling, chauvinism, and well worst things have been said here that have hurt me) but there is no need for that or taunts towards Serbs over lost land, please stop, I have yet to make one single negative remark toward a fellow poster here. And even funnier how you are so sensitive and hurt while offending me in the most low and vicious way. I told you more than once that my family was antifascist and yet you continue to spit on their graves with your chauvinist, disgusting generalization of “Nazi Croats”. If you want me to stop telling truth, then you first must stop pushing insane theory according to which all Croats were Nazis in WWII and that this “fact” justifies bestial Serbian aggression on all Croatian citizens, Serbs loyal to their homeland Croatia included. Instead of wasting energy over old grudges it is time to heal. The younger generations deserve it. Yes, it’s time to heal. You did all in your power to open the wounds. What we need is democracy and respect for minority rights. What we need is allowing all ethnic groups to share cities, towns, and villages. No ****, Sherlock. Take a log out of your own eye before you take a speck out of mine. What we need is for all of ex-Yugoslavia to be admitted to the EU and find stability. What we need is more mental health services for the veterans. You gave me an epic PTSD recoil. Practice what you preach and limit Greater Serbian crap to minimum next time. (Thank god real Croatian Serbs that I personally know are so much different than your highness.) The toll in continuing hate is too great and haunts both sides even now. Healing starts with diagnosis. While we had our diagnosis over here in Croatia, facing all the horrible stuff that has stained our fight for survival and freedom, while we clearly distanced heroes and criminals, Serbia has not yet even admitted where are the bones of Croats taken to death camps in Serbia, what they did in Sarajevo and Srebrenica, and what they are still doing in Kosovo. Take a log out of your eye before you take a speck out of mine. I know I already said that in this post, but that is really all I should have posted in this thread. That goes both for you and for those who taught you to spit on neighbours in order to make peace *facepalm* Practical advice for you: I visited Serbian graves too, did the bread, rakija and cigarette little ritual. My Serbian friends crossed themselves with three fingers on my family members’ catholic funerals. This is how you make peace, directly. Until you learn and apply that in real life, all your internet plots will be in vain. Edited April 29, 2013 by Helen of Annoy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrvatica Posted April 29, 2013 #81 Share Posted April 29, 2013 (edited) I dug in and here is additional information for previously made claims. How little changes in Croatia... Ante Starcevic (1823-1896), called by many Croats "the Father of the Fatherland", was an anti-Semite. He also wanted to supress the rights of minorities. He was also against the unity of Southern Slavs, the same as Croats in the 1990s who were so eager to leave Yugoslavia. We should remember that in the 1990s it was not just a story of Serbs from Serbia who came to help Serbs in Croatia who did not want to leave, it was also Serbs who had lived in Croatia for hundreds of years who wanted to remain part of Yugoslavia and not break away. Vukovar had similar numbers of Serbs and Croats, should the Serbs who wanted to remain in Yugoslavia just be ignored because jackbooted thugs say otherwise, jackbooted thugs who still hate Serbs, who still want to suppress Serbs, to this very day? Back to Ante Starcevic and the 1800s... Ante Starčević Can we guess what the highest currency note that exists today in Croatia? The 1000 kuna. Can we guess who is depicted on the 1000 kuna? Ante Starcevic. What a place of honor for an anti-Semite... Ante Starcevic was born and lived in the 1800s, his views were hardly unusual for the time. However reprehensable his other views are, the fact remains that he was one of the founders of the Croatian national movement and is rightly seen as a Croatian national hero; Winston Churchill was voted the most popular British person, and is seen as a national hero, despite the fact that he was a well known racist and imperialist who advocated the use of chemical and biological weapons against civilian populations. In America they name tanks after William Sherman, despite the fact that the guy was probably a war criminal. The Serbian dinar has a picture ofJovan Cvijic, despite the fact that he was a notorious greater Serb advocate. Ante Starcevic was also the founder of the Ustasha but is warmly honored in Croatia today. Imagine if Germany today had dollar bills with Hitler?Global Research traces Croatian plans to ethnically cleanse Serbs all the way back to 1848. (link) I find it unlikely that Starcevic founded the Ustasha, given that he died in 1898, and the Ustasha were formed in 1929. Although a racist and anti-Semite, Starcevic was also anti-Clerical and never advocated violence or genocide to acheive his goals. Srdja Trifkovic was an advisor to Radovan Karadzic, is on record having made anti-Semitic statements, is not a trained historian, and has no credibility whatsoever. He has no more reliability than Josef Goebels. Let us really be honest now. The Serbs and the Croats welcomed the Nazis in different fashions. While the Germans began bombing the Serbs in Belgrade on 6 April 1941 just four days later on April 10, "Croatia warmly welcomed the Germans, meeting them in their finest clothes, and throwing candies and flowers on the invading tanks," in Zagreb. They did not bomb Belgrade because it was 'Serb', they bombed it because it was the capital city of Yugoslavia. They also bombed Split and Sarajevo. Of course many Croats welcomed the Germans. Who wouldn't after 23 years of Greater Serbian hegemony and terror? Many in the Soviet Union did the same thing. It did not take long for the Croats to realise that they had simply replaced one colonial master with a new one. The Ustasha were a fringe terrorist group based in fascist Italy before the war, who had minimal popular support before or during the war (even their own records showed that of a population of 4 million, they had less than 40,000 active supporters during the war, see Richard Evans The Third Reich At War for confirmation). Croats had overwhelmingly supported the Croatian Peasant Party before the war, and this party was pro-Allied and refused to collaborate, indeed the Ustasha were installed as a last resort because the Germans were unable to find any mainstream politicians who would collaborate with them. On 27 March 1941 the Serbs, via loyal Royal Yugoslavian Air Force officers, overthrew their own government because the traitorous , "Cvetković government had signed the Vienna Protocol on the Accession of Yugoslavia to the Tripartite Pact. (link)Meanwhile the Croats were busy making: "a declaration, made on 31 March 1941 and signed on 5 May 1941, in which Ustaše requested the declaration of a Croatian state. The document also sought German support, protection and recognition among Axis nations." (link) A suicidal coup was organised by Serb-nationalist army officers on 27 March 1941, allegedly directed against Yugoslavia's entry into alliance with Nazi Germany, though in fact the putschist regime under Dusan Simovic immediately reconfirmed the German alliance and expressed its readiness to collaborate with Germany (Andrew Zapantis, Hitler's Balkan Campaign and the Invasion of the USSR, Colombia University Press, New York 1987, pp 57-59). The real underlying motive for the coup was the marginalisation of the traditional Serbian political elite by the authoritian Belgrade regimes since 1929, as well as Serb-nationalist disaffection at concessions to the Croats since 1939 and at the possibility of concessions to the Muslims. Bosnian Serb irredentism contributed to this final, catastrophic fiasco in Yugoslav politics. Despite the willingness of the new regime to continue collaboration with Germany, Hitler took the coup as a personal affont and invaded the country on 6 April 1941. Yugoslav resistance collapsed ignominiously; despite your later claims that the Germans won due to Croat 'treachary', in fact the Serb nationalist regime had intended to retreat into the interior anyway, leaving the Croats and Slovenes in the lurch. In fact, the Germans accomplished their conquest of Serbia and Macedonia by invading through Hungary, the Serb troops proved to be just as 'treacherous' as the Croats and Slovenes. The fact is that nobody was really willing to die for the corrupt and rotten Yugoslav state. As I said before, the Ustasha were a fringe political party based in Fascist Italy, they did not represent even a small fraction of the Croatian people. Increased anti-Semitic restrictions in Bulgaria and the recent warning by the government that all the Jews in the country would be concentrated in two ghettos have resulted in 2,000 Bulgarian Jews fleeing the country to Serbia, where they have joined the Chetnik guerrillas of Gen. Draja Mihailovitch, it was reliably reported here today.At present, thousands of Yugoslavian Jews are fighting with the Chetniks and several of the commanders of Mihailovitch's detachments are Jewish. It has been reported that Jewish newspapers are published by these groups. This is Allied propoganda. You should know that news reports during WW2 were of highly questionable reliability. Indeed, this a rather unfortunate line of argument for you to be taking. Chetnik propoganda was violently anti-Semitic was as well as anti-Croat and anti-Muslim, and the Communists were systematically denounced as 'Jews' - this at a time when the Chetnik leaders were well aware that the Jewish population of Bosnia-Herzegovina was being exterminated by the Nazis and Ustashe, while in Serbia the Nazis were exterminating the Jews with the assistance of the Serbian quisling regime of Milan Nedic, himself a patron of the Chetniks. This is perhaps the best refutation of the Chetniks' alleged 'anti-fascist' character. Here are a few examples of what I am talking about: "We have launched a rebellion for the holy Cross and the golden freedom, for the King and fatherland, for the Serb nation and the Serb Orthodox faith. However, imposed on us is the anti-national fisted salute in place of our military salute, and on their hats they have put the five-pointed star to seperate openly the true Chetniks from the followers of the Communist Party. Among all ignorant peasants, good and honourable, a ruthless propaganda is spread, no longer for the Serb nation and its its sacred things and ideals but for the Communist Party. We are fighting for a better future for the Serb nation from the Blugarian border to the Adriatic Sea and from Salonika to Subotica, and we do not recognise any seperate nations such as the Montenegrins, Bosnians, and Macedonains, like the Communsits call us, we recognise only the Serb nation. This manifests itself in the fact that on our fighting peasant companies are imposed commanders and political commissars, people who are not of out blood, Serb name and out Serb Orthodox religion. Various Jews, Turks [Muslims] and Croats, of who some only yesterday were Ustasha soldiers and followers of the baptised Jew Josip Frank." Proclaimation of the Mountain Staff of the Bosnian Chetnik detachments issued on 15 November 1941 (by which time they had already started making overtures to the Germans) "It is not my intention to fight against the occupiers...I have never made a genuine agreement with the Communists , for they do not care about the people. They are led by foreigners who are not Serbs; the Bulgarian Jankovic, the Jew Lindmajer, the Magyar Borota, two Muslims whose names I do not know and the Ustasha [Croat] Major Boganic. That is all I know of the Communist leadership" Draza Mihailovic in November 1941, in negotiations with the Germans "Do not trust the leaders of the Partisans from Montenegro, among them an important role is played by JEWS, TURKS AND CROATS [emphasis in original]" January 1942 proclaimation by Bosko Todorovic, Chetnik leader in East Bosnia "The Communists have sent a shock detachment of Monenegrin Partisans, under the command of someone called Vlado Segrt, filled with criminal-Ustasha Turks from Herzegovina, some of who had until recently been throwing out brother Serbs into pits" February 1942 proclaimation by Bosko Todorovic "So far as the communist leadership is concerned, they are administered and commanded by the Communist headquarters for the Balkans, in these headquarters sit kikes [derogotary word for Jews], Magyars, Croats Turks, Albanians and Germans." Same source "If anyone tries to prevent you from reading this pamphlet, be assured brother Serbs, that that person is a Turk of a Skutor [Croat]...they have sold their soul to a foreigner - the German Jew Karl Marx and his followers...when it acheives freedom, a golden Serb freedom, then the Serb nation will...take its destiny into its own hands and freely say whether or not it loves more its independent Great Serbia cleansed of Turks and other non-Serbs, or some other state in which Turks and Jews will once again be ministers, commissars, officers and comrades. If they were fighting for their people then they would take account of the desire of the Serb people, that the Turks and Muslims be exterminated or at least expelled from Bosnia-Herzegovina." Proclaimation in late 1941 "The Communists are more dangerous than any others for the Serb nation. Their leaders are for the most parts Turks, Catholics and Jews. The Serb lands must be cleansed of Catholics and Muslims. In them must live only Serbs" Chetnik speech in Herzegovina July 1942 "Tito, the supreme military chief of the Partisans, is a Croat from Zagreb. Pijade, the supreme political chief is a Jew...they have destroyed Serb churches and established mosques, synagogues and Catholic temples." Proclaimation by Jevdjevic in July 1942 "Only a true Serb can become a Chetnik, whereas an Ustasha, German, Jew or Gypsy may become a Partisan." Proclaimation September 1942 "The Jews - associated with much of the scum of the earth - fled out country and began to propagate such a better and happier state of affairs in a Communist state" Proclaimation October 1942 "The Communists are Jews and want to impose Jewish rule on the world. The supreme commander of the Partisans in Comrade Tito, a Zagreb Jew. His leading collaboraters is Mose Pijade, a Belgrade Jew, Frano Vajner, a Hungarian Jew... and many others similar to them." Chetnik proclemation in Sarajevo, fall 1942 "The units of the Partisans are filled with thugs of the most varied kinds; Ustashe, Jews, Croats, Dalmatians, Turks, Magyars and all the nations of the world" Draza Mihailovic to his commanders in December 1942 "Tito's officers include the Belgrade Jew Mose Pijade, who was not even born in Yugoslavia. The other members of the Communist-partisan staff are mostly Jews, who have very little sympathy for the pain and suffering of our people." Chetnik proclaimation February 1943 "Since we have cleansed Serbia, Montenegro and Herzegovina, we have come to help you crush the pitiful remnants of Communist international, criminal band of Tito, Mose Pijade and other paid Jews. Kill the political commissars and join our ranks right away, like hundreds and hundreds are every day, conscious that they have been betrayed and swindled by the Communist Jews" Proclaimation by Momcilo Djujic in February 1943. Nor did Chetnik anti-Semitism stop at words. As Israel Gutman's Encyclopedia of the Holocaust makes clear, there were many instances of Chetniks murdering Jews or handing them over to the Germans (p. 1341). Let us not pretend the Partisans were nice guys either, they were willing to hand over Royal Yugoslavia to the international communist movement, and they did horrible things both during and after the war. Maybe you did not learn this in your Tito-censored schools. Our American press was sure to report it. True, but the fact remains that a Chetnik victory was never really feasable. The Chetniks were not merely Serb-supremacist, but actively genocidal vis-à-vis non-Serbs (as the above shows), in particular Muslims and Croats. Irrespective of what the British did, the Soviet Union would not have permitted this anti-Communist force to conquer Yugoslavia following the German withdrawal, but leaving that aside – such a Chetnik conquest would not have been feasible, given the size of the non-Serb population of Yugoslavia, and any attempt at it would have involved genocidal slaughter on a vast scale. Of course some will falsely claim it was not the Croatians choice, but they were Catholic, and intolerant, they learned it well from their medieval Catholic friends, and kept at and still some are it seems in this case of suppressing minority rights in Vukovar today.Anti-semitism on the other hand existed in Croatia because of, "the attitudes of the Catholic Church and on Venetian law (which applied at the time), was a constant issue for the community, which lived in ghettos in Dubrovnik and Split." (link) I don't honestly understand why the Catholic Church gets such a reputation for anti-Semitism. Nazism was based in Protestant Germany, and its main base of support was amongst the Protestant middle-class in the North and East of the country. After Germany and Italy, it as Orthodox Romania that produced the most powerful indiginious fascist movement. Romania had a large Jewish population and an exceptionally anti-Semitic political culture that culminated in massive Romanian participation in the Holocaust and the post-war emigration of Romanian Jews. Romania killed more Jews than any country during World War 2 apart from Nazi Germany (280,000-380,000). By the way, wikipedia is not a reliable source. Tanjug (which you cite in your first post) was a well known mouthpiece for the Milosevic regime. Edited April 29, 2013 by Hrvatica 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarakore Posted April 29, 2013 Author #82 Share Posted April 29, 2013 (edited) Helen, my interest lies in history and current affairs more, than simply making personal attacks, so it does not seem we are going to be on the same page but you are welcome to offer a more dispassionate narrative if you feel the history books which the world accepts are in error. For those interested in history of the current tension in Vukovar, I am currently gathering materials to present a brief look into the origins of the Cyrillic/Latin divide that developed even before the development of Cyrillic and reaches back to the Roman and Byzantine eras. History does shape us as a world, and as people, allowing us to understand current and past conflict with greater appreciation. If wanting to be involved in that discussion, as there is so much more to read besides what could ever be written here by any of us, the development of Croatian nationalism will also be touched upon including the Illyrian movement in a future post. For now I will touch upon a few of the points brought up by another one of our posters. Even funnier how Serbs “generously” declare it unimportant who caused more deaths when there are mass graves blocking their way to EU. The Croatian government feels otherwise and even the Croatian Deputy Prime Minister Vesna Pusic speaks of the missing persons issue in terms of, "making considerate progress." “When we see that we are making considerable progress on the missing persons issue and coming closer to resolving it, then we are also close to being able to talk about withdrawing the lawsuits,” Pusic said at a joint news conference at the Croatian Ministry of Foreign and European Affairs. Croatia's Deputy Prime Minister Serbia is committed to reconciliation. Vucic, who was on his first official visit to Croatia, said this is not an easy issue, but Serbia remains open to talks. He said it is just for the families to know where the remains of their loves ones are buried.Serbia recently presented Croatia with information about a mass grave in Sotin, on the outskirts of Vukovar, from which the remains of 13 Croatian civilians were exhumed last week. Croatia's Deputy Prime Minister I told you more than once that my family was antifascist I have no doubt you believe that and it could very well be true. What we do know is that under Tito's Yugoslav government no one who was a fascist or nationalist would admit it. Their children and grandchildren would go to school beliving the myth that they were all Partisans who fought the fascists. This "my family was antifascist" could be true in your case but it was also a myth taught in schools in order to unify the country and diminish ethnic tensions/nationalism under Tito's administration. This was already hinted at earlier: In the postwar era, Marshal Tito, himself half-Croatian, reorganized the country on a federal basis, in which each republic nominally exercised a wide degree of autonomy. Nevertheless, until his death, the one-party Communist Government kept most real authority in its hands.To underpin its legitimacy, it fostered an image of Marshal Tito and the Partisans as humane, heroic liberators of all of Yugoslavia's people from fascism and nationalism. ''When I heard that Partisans carried out the killings, it made my head spin because it went against everything I heard in school,'' said Nikola Hranilovic, a Sosice resident who said he learned of the killings years ago but kept silent because he feared the police. ''I always heard that the Partisans fought for our side and for our people. It never became clear to me why they did this to women and men who were forced to join the army.'' Evolution in Europe; Piles of Bones in Yugoslavia Point to Partisan Massacres (Thank god real Croatian Serbs that I personally know are so much different than your highness.) An English cyclists who is cycling through 20 countries visited Vukovar and this is what he wrote in his travel diary regarding the view of a Croatian Serb (a Serb living in Croatia). Day 21:I stayed the night in Vukovar and learned the history from my host who let me treat her home like it was my own. Even got my washing done which was a bonus. Vukovar is an interesting place and clearly showing signs of damage from the war over 20 years ago. My host was exiled from her home because she is Serbian and had to rebuild it on her return. There were 2000 killed and 800 are still missing from Vukovar out of a population of around 40,000 at that time. Just outside the town there is a cemetery dedicated to the dead. Blog: Andy Sangster's solo cycle world tour - Days 19-25 Take a log out of your eye before you take a speck out of mine. I know I already said that in this post, but that is really all I should have posted in this thread.That goes both for you and for those who taught you to spit on neighbours in order to make peace *facepalm* Practical advice for you: Consider the advice of your own Deputy Prime Minister. Vucic said the relations between Serbia and Croatia are “the backbone of the region” and must be based more on honesty and credibility and less on emotions, as was the case in the past. Croatia's Deputy Prime Minister I visited Serbian graves too, did the bread, rakija and cigarette little ritual.My Serbian friends crossed themselves with three fingers on my family members’ catholic funerals. This is how you make peace, directly. That is a start. As is the following photo taken after an old Croatian woman tried to chide a younger woman for having a Serbian boyfriend. [link] How Croatia and Serbia buried the hatchet. When asked why she was walking next to a Serb, a Croatian girl responded by kissing him.The moment took place during a parade in Mostar, Bosnia-Herzegovina. Students from the United World College, Mostar, were walking through the town with flags for a cultural parade. "My Serbian friend was walking hand in hand with his Croatian girlfriend," Reddit user EvolvedBacteria explained. "When an old lady asked her how she could dare to walk next to a Serb, she kissed him." The user said more than 40 different nationalities are represented in the student body of the United World College, making it a symbol of unity in a city that for some, remains divided by war. EvolvedBacteria explained that even though the photo isn't merely a couple expressing their love. "For us, here in Mostar, it shows that the new generations are not willing to continue a war of minds," the user wrote. Serb-Croatian Kiss Is The Bravest Thing Ever (PHOTO) Serbs + Croats = <3 Edited April 29, 2013 by Leave Britney alone! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutankhaten-pasheri Posted April 29, 2013 #83 Share Posted April 29, 2013 (edited) I don't honestly understand why the Catholic Church gets such a reputation for anti-Semitism. Nazism was based in Protestant Germany, and its main base of support was amongst the Protestant middle-class in the North and East of the country. I not going to interject again in this quarrel between Southern Slavs. Instead I wish to point out an inacurracy that seems to suggest whitewashing any Catholic involvement in nazism, and heaping blame on Protestants and even Orthodox!. I think you have done this because Croats are generally Catholic and Serbs Orthodox. This spoils an otherwise decent post by you. I point out here that Nazism has it's roots in Catholic Bavaria, primarily in Munich. Hitler was an Austrian catholic, Goebbels was a Catholic, Goring was a Bavarian, though I do not know if he was Catholic. Himmler was a Catholic from Munich. Hess, though a protestant, was another Bavarian. These, I think anybody would agree, were the main actors on the nazi stage. You have not exactly put forward a strong case for nazism coming from "Protestant" Germany and certainly not from what used to be Prussia and Pommerania. And most Orthodox are Russian, and are not nazis thank you. Edited April 29, 2013 by Atentutankh-pasheri 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrvatica Posted April 29, 2013 #84 Share Posted April 29, 2013 I not going to interject again in this quarrel between Southern Slavs. Instead I wish to point out an inacurracy that seems to suggest whitewashing any Catholic involvement in nazism, and heaping blame on Protestants and even Orthodox!. I think you have done this because Croats are generally Catholic and Serbs Orthodox. This spoils an otherwise decent post by you. I point out here that Nazism has it's roots in Catholic Bavaria, primarily in Munich. Hitler was an Austrian catholic, Goebbels was a Catholic, Goring was a Bavarian, though I do not know if he was Catholic. Himmler was a Catholic from Munich. Hess, though a protestant, was another Bavarian. These, I think anybody would agree, were the main actors on the nazi stage. You have not exactly put forward a strong case for nazism coming from "Protestant" Germany. And most Orthodox are Russian, and are not nazis thank you. My actual main point was that Nazism and fascism trancended religious barriers, and was not primarily about religion. I just think it is unfair to demonise the Catholic Church alone for anti-semitism, when all churches preached it. The anti-semtism preached by the Nazis was racial, or Volkish anti-semtism, and had its roots in the 19th century, it was not primarily religious in origin. I was not intending to demonise Orthodox Christians as Nazis or fascists (although anti-Semtism was extremely high in Russia as well, which you mention). I am fully willing to admit for example, the massive involvement of the Spanish Catholic church in the rise of Franco. To move on to your specific points; Hitler and Goebels were nominally Catholics (Goering was Protestant, although not very religious), although it is certainly debatable whether they really were Catholics or not (in his speeches, Hitler often made referances to God and a religious belief, but in his private conversations he often expressed contempt for organised religion, including Catholocism, and he never attended mass after childhood. In Nazi propoganda, Poland was portrayed as a backward land of Catholic superstition, and the overwhelmingly Catholic Poles themselves were subjected to genocidal treatment). His actions were certainly not motivated by his alleged Catholicism though; his steralzation of the disabled and social outcases is completely against Catholic teaching, and he regularly violated his Concordat with the Catholic Church. Although born a Catholic, Himmler gave it up in his college days, he was fiercly anti-Clerical and believed in the occult. The Nazi party was initially established in Barvaria, that is true. However, that doesn't change the fact that it got most of its votes in the predominatly Protestant North and East, mainly among the middle-classes. The overwhelming majority of German Catholics voted for the Centre Party. (See here, the site is biased, but just look at the maps). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarakore Posted April 29, 2013 Author #85 Share Posted April 29, 2013 (edited) I find it unlikely that Starcevic founded the Ustasha, given that he died in 1898, and the Ustasha were formed in 1929. Although a racist and anti-Semite, Starcevic was also anti-Clerical and never advocated violence or genocide to acheive his goals. Thank you for correcting that. Better clarification is always welcomed. "In fact, the roots of the Ustasha ideology can be found in the Croatian nationalism of the nineteenth century. The Ustasha ideological system was just a replica of the traditional pure Croatian nationalism of Ante Starcevic. His ideology contained all important elements of those of the extreme Croatian nationalism in the twentieth century. Starcevic’s writings reveal an attitude similar to that of the contemporary Croatian nationalists: Frankovci at the beginning of the twentieth century and Ustashas in the 1930s." IWM Junior Visiting Fellows Conferences, Vol. VI/5: Nationalism and National Policy inIndependent State of Croatia (1941–1945)by Irina Ognyanova I will reread your post later, keep in mind I already have planned my next post to be dedicated to exploring the Latin/Cyrllic divide, and maybe even try to better respond to some of the points you make, some which I strongly disagree with based on an understanding of history. Just to add, of course Chetinks were a nationalist group and did and said horrible things. Nationalism infected Europe in various ways but at the same time allowed for ethnic groups to strive for their own country and in some cases break away from the Habsburg domination (if we are focusing in just on this region). This is similar to how countries broke away from Russia after the Soviet-era. There are still tensions over it and misdrawn borders so nationalism has its good and bad sides, some very bad as you have noted. Edited April 29, 2013 by Leave Britney alone! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutankhaten-pasheri Posted April 29, 2013 #86 Share Posted April 29, 2013 (edited) I was not intending to demonise Orthodox Christians as Nazis or fascists (although anti-Semtism was extremely high in Russia as well, which you mention) You make it seem as if I mentioned in my post that anti-semitism was high in Russia, I didn't, so please do not distort. Anti-semitism has been common in most European countries at some time or other, just about everybody has some guilt. Anyway, no matter who voted for what in 1933, the leaders were from Catholic German speaking areas and with only a few exeptions, were raised as Catholics. I do not of course say that Catholics are responsible for nazism, that is wrong and silly, I simply look at the facts. btw, I am pagan so have no axe to grind in this respect exept to defend a national heritage. I do not spit on my ancestors Orthodox graves, ever. And I am now out of this thread, while still alive Edited April 29, 2013 by Atentutankh-pasheri 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrvatica Posted April 30, 2013 #87 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Part 2. The Chetniks had no death camps that they ran, the Ustasha did. The Chetniks did not have their own "state", and were not as well organised as the Ustashe, and with that borne in mind, their willingness to collaborate and kill members of other nationalities appears to have been as great. Besides, the Chetniks did run a few unofficial camps. Kosovo camp near Knin for example was at the time compared to Jasenovac (this may be a bit of an exaggeration, but still). I lowered the font on most of what you have cut and pasted so you could see the most relevant part, it is right there toward the begining, and says, "...the Chetniks were an anti-Axis movement in their long-range goals and engaged in marginal resistance activities for limited periods." This argument is pure bad faith. I daresay those who try to argue this point would not say the same about Balli Kombëtar. It would seem more relevent to judge them based on their actions rather than on their thoughts. With due respect to different interpretations of available documents , I find it impossible to define the extensive collaboration with the Italians, as well as the collaboration with the Nedic regime, the modus vivendi and the attempts to outright collaborate with the Germans (which became extensive after the capitulation of Italy), and the modus vivendi and at times collaboration with the Ustashe, as anything other than collaboration with the enemy. Sometimes apologists for the Chetniks try to explain away the collaboration with the Italians as an attempt to "protect" Serbs from the Ustashe - but this argument, as well as being again in bad faith - is pure self-serving fiction. It is a wholly inadequate explaination for the sheer extent of Chetnik-italian collaboration, the fact is that their collaboration with the Axis was not accidental or an isolated incident perpetrated on limited territory for a limited time. On the contrary, this was the general trend present on all territories where they were active for the most of the time during the period from 1941 to 1945. It downplays the brutality of the Italians towards not only Croats and Slovenes, but also Serbs, and it is not the primary motivation found in the Chetnik documents (which cite anti-Communism and a desire to crush the partisans as the main reason). Chetnik leaders themselves displayed a rather disinterested stance against the killing of Serb civilians if it could serve their purposes; Mihailovic himself said that he was willing to sacrifice half the Serb population to serve his goals, and others expressed glee when women and children were killed, as it was good for propoganda. It also fails to explain the extensive collaboration with the Italians in Montenegro and the Sandzak (beginning as early as June 1941), which were never under Ustasha rule. It also fails to explain the collaboration with the Nedic regime (beginning in September 1941), as well as the attempts to collaborate with the Germans (beginning in November 1941), and the collaboration with the Ustashe themselves (beginning in spring 1942). It also fails to explain why the Chetniks continued to collaborate with the Germans and Ustashe far more extensively long after Italy capitulated, even though neither expressed any desire to "protect" Serbs from the Ustashe. At the end of it all, the fact is that Mihailovic was a war criminal responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people, and who collaborated extensively and systematically with the Italian occupation forces, while trying to collaborate with the Germans directly, all while trying to exterminate Croats and Muslims and trying to crush the real resistance. That he hoped for an allied victory in the end, or that his forces rescued 250 American airmen (largely an attempt to regain allied funding after it was cut off), cannot change these facts. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarakore Posted April 30, 2013 Author #88 Share Posted April 30, 2013 (edited) The Chetniks did not have their own "state", and were not as well organised as the Ustashe, and with that borne in mind, their willingness to collaborate and kill members of other nationalities appears to have been as great. Besides, the Chetniks did run a few unofficial camps. Kosovo camp near Knin for example was at the time compared to Jasenovac (this may be a bit of an exaggeration, but still). This argument is pure bad faith. I daresay those who try to argue this point would not say the same about Balli Kombëtar. It would seem more relevent to judge them based on their actions rather than on their thoughts. With due respect to different interpretations of available documents , I find it impossible to define the extensive collaboration with the Italians, as well as the collaboration with the Nedic regime, the modus vivendi and the attempts to outright collaborate with the Germans (which became extensive after the capitulation of Italy), and the modus vivendi and at times collaboration with the Ustashe, as anything other than collaboration with the enemy. Sometimes apologists for the Chetniks try to explain away the collaboration with the Italians as an attempt to "protect" Serbs from the Ustashe - but this argument, as well as being again in bad faith - is pure self-serving fiction. It is a wholly inadequate explaination for the sheer extent of Chetnik-italian collaboration, the fact is that their collaboration with the Axis was not accidental or an isolated incident perpetrated on limited territory for a limited time. On the contrary, this was the general trend present on all territories where they were active for the most of the time during the period from 1941 to 1945. It downplays the brutality of the Italians towards not only Croats and Slovenes, but also Serbs, and it is not the primary motivation found in the Chetnik documents (which cite anti-Communism and a desire to crush the partisans as the main reason). Chetnik leaders themselves displayed a rather disinterested stance against the killing of Serb civilians if it could serve their purposes; Mihailovic himself said that he was willing to sacrifice half the Serb population to serve his goals, and others expressed glee when women and children were killed, as it was good for propoganda. It also fails to explain the extensive collaboration with the Italians in Montenegro and the Sandzak (beginning as early as June 1941), which were never under Ustasha rule. It also fails to explain the collaboration with the Nedic regime (beginning in September 1941), as well as the attempts to collaborate with the Germans (beginning in November 1941), and the collaboration with the Ustashe themselves (beginning in spring 1942). It also fails to explain why the Chetniks continued to collaborate with the Germans and Ustashe far more extensively long after Italy capitulated, even though neither expressed any desire to "protect" Serbs from the Ustashe. At the end of it all, the fact is that Mihailovic was a war criminal responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people, and who collaborated extensively and systematically with the Italian occupation forces, while trying to collaborate with the Germans directly, all while trying to exterminate Croats and Muslims and trying to crush the real resistance. That he hoped for an allied victory in the end, or that his forces rescued 250 American airmen (largely an attempt to regain allied funding after it was cut off), cannot change these facts. Thank you again, your posts thus far are high quality, focus only on the topics being discussed and not offensive to any poster, are completely interesting, and your love of history is appreciated so very much. My next (long post) will still focus on Cyrillic/Latin divide but I will give you a proper response soon after. You have indeed stated the truth in many of these matters as I understand it, which I will acknowledge in a future post on the items I agree with, as well as offering any disagreement that I might also have with your narrative. I did want to add this, people did what they had to survive, even Jews joined the Ustasha as long as they would "become Croat". That goes to show to the depths of what some will do to survive. Also please consider what some said during WWII should be contrasted with what others said even before that war started. Edited April 30, 2013 by Leave Britney alone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted April 30, 2013 #89 Share Posted April 30, 2013 @ Britney It's necessary we clear few things up, before singing the Ode to Joy. Who demolished Vukovar? What happened to the wounded from Vukovar hospital? What was predominant ethnicity of the wounded and what of their murderers? Were there any Croats driven out of their homes by chetnik paramilitary and JNA? Who commanded JNA? Who commanded chetnik forces? What was life of Croats on territories occupied by Serbia like? Who carried out artillery attacks on Vukovar, Vinkovci, Osijek, Đakovo, Županja, Slavonski Brod, Novska, Sisak, Petrinja, Karlovac, Zadar, Dubrovnik... to name few towns? How many Serbian tanks were there attacking Vukovar and how many Croatian? Who bombed Dubrovnik and why? Who fired cluster bombs at children’s hospital and national theatre in Zagreb? Why? Who sang “Miloševiću, šalji nam salate, bit će mesa, klat ćemo Hrvate”? Why? Answer these few simple questions in straightforward manner, please. Just to make sure you are objective enough to appoint yourself as peacemaker 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarakore Posted April 30, 2013 Author #90 Share Posted April 30, 2013 The Serbs did for every questions you asked... ...and I can offer near-similar, parallel, and exact-equivalent examples of Croats doing the same to both Serbs and Bosniaks. If you want me to just ask...it will have to wait until after I make my next lenghty post and after I offer Hrvatica an adequate response to his diligently crafted posts. I am no peacemaker just another lonely soul singing about the lasting peace that is to come and all are invited to join the choir. That does not mean forget history or deny it. It does not mean putting the blame solely on the other side. I am not the self-described nationalist here. I do want lasting peace for all the Southern Slavs. But to only answer your questions without adding in any "but they did it too" it was the Serbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted April 30, 2013 #91 Share Posted April 30, 2013 (edited) Add freely, under only one condition – it must be true and proven fact – what Croats did too. Serbia bombed Croatia sadistically, with everything JNA accumulated for half a century. While no Croatian bomb fell on Serbian soil. Where’s “too”? Croatia stopped on the internationally recognized border. No square inch of Serbia was invaded or claimed by Croatia. Croats did not believe previous war gives them right to retaliate on hospitals and theatres. “Too”? No too. Chetniks and JNA left uncharted mine fields in all territories they occupied. Note that I don’t even complain they left mine fields, I complain they didn’t make charts, so we have outrageous expenses and losses trying to get rid of that plague. How many mine fields in Serbia? Too? None? And so on and on... In short, Croatia did not attack Serbia. No offence to Serbs, I bet they like their country and it’s one fine land, but Croats are not interested in annexing it. Serbia did attack Croatia with intention to ethnically cleanse and annex Croatian land. It’s not even a problem for their nationalists, who still scream about uniting what they phantasise are "all Serbian lands", their problem is that they lost all wars they started. They keep failing without big players installing them in power. So they failed in Croatia, and then they fled, but not before they threw cluster bombs at ballerinas and hospitalized children. I kid you not, it was particularly dangerous to live near: hospitals, libraries, theatres, museums and schools. These were favourite targets of JNA and chetniks. Lasting peace may come to Southern Slavs, but it cannot come through continuation of aggressor’s Greater Serbian politics. It wouldn’t be lasting peace, it would be another Greater Serbian travesty. What you, Britney, offered here was set of grave insults in form of imaginary collective guilt, history twisted beyond recognition and Greater Serbian patronizing. I find it insulting to no end but I’m at the same time grateful for the warning posted here for all to see: Milošević is dead, Yugoslavia is dead, but the ideology with the same old tricks is still alive and kicking. The good news for Croats is that tricks are the same, so no matter how repulsively tiresome and annoying they are, at least we know what to expect. Croatia will continue to guarantee minority rights, for all minorities, not only Croatian Serbs, because firstly, minorities are integral part of our society. Second, so that it becomes more visible it’s the small portion of Serbs (mostly those with interesting political platforms) that feel chronically endangered and no one else. Sooner or later, people starts wondering how’s that possible. And thirdly, so that Serbia may look up to us as an example on her looooong, looooong way to EU. So one day we may meet in EU, together with Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Kosovo and Macedonia, but we will never, ever meet in Yugoslavia again. Because log, speck, eye. Edited April 30, 2013 by Helen of Annoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Voodoo Posted May 1, 2013 #92 Share Posted May 1, 2013 Britney you dont have a clue what you talking about when you spoke about Ante Starčević. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Voodoo Posted May 1, 2013 #93 Share Posted May 1, 2013 (edited) Hitler was an Austrian catholic, Goebbels was a Catholic, Goring was a Bavarian, though I do not know if he was Catholic. Himmler was a Catholic from Munich. Hess, though a protestant, was another Bavarian. Again you show minor knowledge in history. They were not chatolics. They might born in Chatolic families. If you know what is Gestapo and their history you will know that they have special orders to kill on sights Jesuits. In 1939 Jesuit headquarter was closed by Nazists. Those who were not killed end up in Holocaust. Hitler could call himself Budhist but I would not trust him. Do you see similarites in ideology of Jesus and Hitler? I dont. If you do please let me know about it. Nazism have more with ancient Greeks and Norse/German mythology and some USA maniacs then with Chatolicism. Edited May 1, 2013 by the L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutankhaten-pasheri Posted May 1, 2013 #94 Share Posted May 1, 2013 Again you show minor knowledge in history. They were not chatolics. They might born in Chatolic families. If you know what is Gestapo and their history you will know that they have special orders to kill on sights Jesuits. In 1939 Jesuit headquarter was closed by Nazists. Those who were not killed end up in Holocaust. Hitler could call himself Budhist but I would not trust him. Do you see similarites in ideology of Jesus and Hitler? I dont. If you do please let me know about it. Nazism have more with ancient Greeks and Norse/German mythology and some USA maniacs then with Chatolicism. I have left this thread!! But it does not alter the fact that nazi leaders were mostly Catholics from Bavaria. You and anybody may obfuscate and twist in the wind all you like, but it will not alter reality. Majority nazi leadership were born and raised as Catholics, not Protestants from North and Eastern germany, not Orthodox, not Budhists, not pagans, not animists, not American fundamentalists, not Muslims. They were born and raised as Catholics. An uncomfortable truth for some of you, but I simply DO NOT CARE ANYMORE. Proschai proschai.......... Perhaps people should read my posts and not make up garbage as is mostly the case and again Do not disturb me again! Proschai! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarakore Posted May 2, 2013 Author #95 Share Posted May 2, 2013 (edited) Britney you dont have a clue what you talking about when you spoke about Ante Starčević. History says otherwise. Provide sources from an academic and unbaised source if you can, if you have a different narrative to present. Simply claiming someone is uninformed in their discussion will not prove much unfortunately. Edited May 2, 2013 by Leave Britney alone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Voodoo Posted May 2, 2013 #96 Share Posted May 2, 2013 I have left this thread!! But it does not alter the fact that nazi leaders were mostly Catholics from Bavaria. You and anybody may obfuscate and twist in the wind all you like, but it will not alter reality. Majority nazi leadership were born and raised as Catholics, not Protestants from North and Eastern germany, not Orthodox, not Budhists, not pagans, not animists, not American fundamentalists, not Muslims. They were born and raised as Catholics. An uncomfortable truth for some of you, but I simply DO NOT CARE ANYMORE. Proschai proschai.......... Perhaps people should read my posts and not make up garbage as is mostly the case and again Do not disturb me again! Proschai! Okay I will. Just a small note. "To remain ignorant on past events is to remain a child." Cicero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Voodoo Posted May 2, 2013 #97 Share Posted May 2, 2013 History says otherwise. Provide sources from an academic and unbaised source if you can, if you have a different narrative to present. Simply claiming someone is uninformed in their discussion will not prove much unfortunately. Britney you dont know what history say. Ante Starčević is icon for resistance to serb hegemony. Please Britney. You need to read a lot of books before you can speak about Croatia-Serbia realations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrvatica Posted May 2, 2013 #98 Share Posted May 2, 2013 History says otherwise. Provide sources from an academic and unbaised source if you can, if you have a different narrative to present. Simply claiming someone is uninformed in their discussion will not prove much unfortunately. For a reasonably unbiased account of Starcevic, check out Vaso Bogdanov, Ante Starcevic i Hrvatska politika (Zagreb, 1937) and Marjana Gross Izvorno pravastvo: Ideologija, agitacija, pokret (Zagreb, 2000). While he was certainly a racist and an anti-Semite, Starcevic was also a 19th century liberal who believed in equal civil rights regardless of ethinicity or gender, including female suffrage, and he believed in secularism. I can understand why he would be a controvertial figure, but to say that putting him on our money is the same as putting Hitler on it is a rediculious exaggeration; a bit like saying that Serbia putting Vuk Karadzic on its money is the same as putting Stevan Moljevic on its currency. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarakore Posted May 2, 2013 Author #99 Share Posted May 2, 2013 (edited) Ustasha Movement 1929-1945, Axis-sponsored extreme nationalist movement that ruled Croatia during World War II. A violent fascist, anti-Serbian, anti-communist, and anti-Semitic group descended from Josip Frank's Pure Party of Right, itself formed in 1895 as an offshoot of Ante Starcevic's Party of Right... Encyclopedia of Nationalism, Two-Volume Set, Volume 2; published by Academic Press; Library of Congress Catalog Car Number: 00-102545 Academic Press is an academic book publisher. Originally independent, it was acquired by Harcourt, Brace & World in 1969. Reed Elsevier bought Harcourt in 2000, and Academic Press is now an imprint of Elsevier. Elsevier B.V. is a publishing company which publishes medical and scientific literature. In neighboring Croatia the murderous racism of the Ustasa state of World War II had by no means been extinguished in the nearly fifty years separating it from the newly free Croatia. President Tudjman himself apparently embodies some of the xenophobic, anti-Semitic propensities of his predecessors. So do many members of his ruling Croatian Democratic Party. To the right of it, the Croatian Party of Historic Rights, the new expression of the Starcevic-Frank-Ante Pavelic tradition, is impregnated with anti-Semitism. Hopes and Shadows: Eastern Europe After Communism By J. F. Brown; published by Duke Univeristy Press; also published in the Cambridge Journals Online by the Cambridge University Press; Duke University Press is an academic publisher of books and journals, and a unit of Duke University. Nazi racist ideas infected the extremist nationalists of many countries, and the Ustasa movement in Croatia became obsessed with cleansing Croatia of those whome they considered their ethnic rivals, particularly Serbs, Jews, and Roma. Building on politics of the Croatian Party of Rights and the ideas of Ante Starcevic, a nineteenth-century Croat ideologue, Ante Pavelic spearheaded the Ustase movement, which was based on the racist ideas of Croat superiority and Serb inferiority, and he did so while he and many of his followers were still in exile in Italy and Hungary due to their terrorist activities. The Ustase movement's aim was to destroy the Yugoslav state in order to create a Croatian state.<snip> The Ustase targeted their hatred at Jews, whom they believed to be biologically different (and intent on taking over the world); the Roma, whom they simply considered subhuman; and the Serbs, whom they considered culturally and even biologically inferior to Croats and alleged opressors of the Croats, threatening their very survival. Balkan Genocides: Holocaust and Ethnic Cleansing in the 20th Century by Paul Mozjes; published by Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, Inc. Rowman & Littlefield Publishing Group is an independent publishing house founded in 1949. Under several imprints, the company offers scholarly books and journals for the academic market, as well as trade books. Notice how the green and purple ideas have been shared with us, more than once, in this very thread, some in the form of taunts. Below are just two of the most recent examples. Funny how old ideas seem to live on. But we all know they are dying and a united Europe will see the end to them at last. Hope is for the younger generations who are willing to leave the ignorance of their parents behind. Milošević is dead, Yugoslavia is dead, but the ideology with the same old tricks is still alive and kicking.The good news for Croats is that tricks are the same, so no matter how repulsively tiresome and annoying they are, at least we know what to expect. Croatia will continue to guarantee minority rights, for all minorities, not only Croatian Serbs, because firstly, minorities are integral part of our society. Second, so that it becomes more visible it’s the small portion of Serbs (mostly those with interesting political platforms) that feel chronically endangered and no one else. Sooner or later, people starts wondering how’s that possible. And thirdly, so that Serbia may look up to us as an example on her looooong, looooong way to EU. So one day we may meet in EU, together with Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Kosovo and Macedonia, but we will never, ever meet in Yugoslavia again. Britney you dont know what history say. Ante Starčević is icon for resistance to serb hegemony. Please Britney. You need to read a lot of books before you can speak about Croatia-Serbia realations. Speaking of books, the general reader is going to trust in them when they come from academia. Anyone can make claims but where are your sources? It also looks like some of the Ustasha's plans were achieved. Edited May 2, 2013 by Leave Britney alone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Voodoo Posted May 2, 2013 #100 Share Posted May 2, 2013 (edited) Do you know what post hoc(latin. after another) mistake is? Obviously those "historians" you quoted dont. Let me explain you. One event that happened before , we wrongly conclude that one event is cause of another event. You are hilarious. Why dont you tell us how "civilized" Serbs killed him? Edited May 2, 2013 by the L 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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