Do Governments like Conspiracy Theories?

[skyeagle409]

It's not that mistakes don't happen. They do. They are commonplace.

You can't come to grips with mistakes being rewarded on purpose. Not by a slip-up, which is purely unintended. Those happen here or there, but that's all.

9/11 was rewarded for these mistakes repeatedly, which proves the rewards were given for incompetence. For their part in allowing the mass murder to unfold as planned.

That is what makes it all so despicable. They helped allow a mass murder, and were given rewards for it.

They didn't intentionally allow the 911 attacks to take place. The CIA and the FBI blew it, but in no way does that constitute proof of a government 911 conspiracy. Bush and Rice blew it as well, but blunders will continue to plague policy makers because there are those who just don't learn from history and future policy makers who don't learn from that history will continue to make errors as well and some will pay a heavy price while others will get off with a slap on the wrist. Question is: how long will the American public put up with politicians who don't play by the rules?

[turbonium]

They didn't intentionally allow the 911 attacks to take place. The CIA and the FBI blew it, but in no way does that constitute proof of a government 911 conspiracy. Bush and Rice blew it as well, but blunders will continue to plague policy makers because there are those who just don't learn from history and future policy makers who don't learn from that history will continue to make errors as well and some will pay a heavy price while others will get off with a slap on the wrist. Question is: how long will the American public put up with politicians who don't play by the rules?

The problem is that it was rewarded. That means they saw it as a good thing.

But you'll deny the facts, as usual.

[skyeagle409]

The problem is that it was rewarded. That means they saw it as a good thing.

But you'll deny the facts, as usual.

You are incorrect.

[lightly]

Entire governments are rarely , if ever, "in on" conspiracies .. or the accompanying theories. I was think about Bush, Cheney/Rumsfeld , Rice, and others in that administration making their "MUSHROOM CLOUD" speeches , on the possibility of Saddam Hussein possessing nukes and putting them to use against the U.S. or others...

That was a Conspiracy Theory . I think it was a terroristic Threat .. made by members of our government to frighten the public, and weak minded members of government, to bolster support for the invasion of Iraq •

Another conspiracy theory put forth by the Bush administration during that time was the idea, and verbalization, that Saddam was Linked to al Quaeda .. which was a complete Lie.. and they Knew it! See? they were trying to tell us that Saddam was Conspiring with Al Qaeiouda .... (total Bullschnizzle and they knew they were lying to us)

So, do 'governments' like conspriacy theories? Yes, often elements (people) in government use conspriacy theories to advance agendas... it's nothing new

[skyeagle409]

Entire governments are rarely , if ever, "in on" conspiracies .. or the accompanying theories. I was think about Bush, Cheney/Rumsfeld , Rice, and others in that administration making their "MUSHROOM CLOUD" speeches , on the possibility of Saddam Hussein possessing nukes and putting them to use against the U.S. or others...

Iraq's attempt to use nukes was no secret.

Khidir Hamza, an Iraqi nuclear scientist, made the following statement in an interview on CNN's Crossfire in 2003:

"...the program we built later in secret would make six bombs a year."

That was a Conspiracy Theory . I think it was a terroristic Threat .. made by members of our government to frighten the public, and weak minded members of government, to bolster support for the invasion of Iraq •

The United States was fed false information by an Iraqi exile group and the group made it very clear as to why they fed false information to America.

Iraqi exile group fed false information to news media

WASHINGTON — The former Iraqi exile group that gave the Bush administration exaggerated and fabricated intelligence on Iraq also fed much of the same information to leading newspapers, news agencies and magazines in the United States, Britain and Australia.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2004/03/15/10176/iraqi-exile-group-fed-false-information.html#.UeQ_jCqF_vg#storylink=cpy

[lightly]

Iraq's attempt to use nukes was no secret.

Khidir Hamza, an Iraqi nuclear scientist, made the following statement in an interview on CNN's Crossfire in 2003:

"...the program we built later in secret would make six bombs a year."

The United States was fed false information by an Iraqi exile group and the group made it very clear as to why they fed false information to America.

So, the statement by the Iraqi scientist was a lie. .. and the bush administration based the invasion and occupation of a nation on "false information" that was "fed" to them from some dubious source? Ya.. that makes sense. OR Bush and co. lied . I think i'll stick with they lied to us... They fed us, and congress, false information .

Thanks for the link to that article because the article goes on to say this:

A June 26, 2002, letter from the Iraqi National Congress to the Senate Appropriations Committee listed 108 articles based on information provided by the INC's Information Collection Program, a U.S.-funded effort to collect intelligence in Iraq.

The assertions in the articles reinforced President Bush's claims that Saddam Hussein should be ousted because he was in league with Osama bin Laden, was developing nuclear weapons and was hiding biological and chemical weapons.

Feeding the information to the news media, as well as to selected administration officials and members of Congress, helped foster an impression that there were multiple sources of intelligence on Iraq's illicit weapons programs and links to bin Laden.

In fact, many of the allegations came from the same half-dozen defectors, weren't confirmed by other intelligence and were hotly disputed by intelligence professionals at the CIA, the Defense Department and the State Department.

Nevertheless, U.S. officials and others who supported a pre-emptive invasion quoted the allegations in statements and interviews without running afoul of restrictions on classified information or doubts about the defectors' reliability.

Read more here: http://www.mcclatchy...g#storylink=cpy

... I don't think the State dept. had anything called al Qaeda on it's official terrorist organization list at that time. In fact i Know they didn't. Because there was no such thing.. and if truth be deciphered... there still isn't . I just deleted a long speal on that.. so, just be thankful for that.

Edited July 16, 2013 by lightly

[skyeagle409]

So, the statement by the Iraqi scientist was a lie. ..

It was all very simple. The Bush administration was not the original source of that false story despite claims by the conspiracy folks to the contrary. BTW, WMD was eventually found in Iraq despite claims by the conspiracy folks.

[lightly]

It was all very simple. The Bush administration was not the original source of that false story despite claims by the conspiracy folks to the contrary. BTW, WMD was eventually found in Iraq despite claims by the conspiracy folks.

For the sake of discussion, let's say that they were victims of false information. Poor babies. They couldn't verify anything before invading a nation? We were in the neighborhood with a HUGE military force and this extreme urgency to invade Iraq happens? All too convenient.

[Zaphod222]

It depends on the government. The Iranian government, for example, absolutely loves and promotes both holocaust denial theories, the Jewish "book of the elders of zion" conspiracy fake, and the 9-11 troother movement.

So, yes, SOME governments love this stuff (as long as it fits their agenda at least.)

[skyeagle409]

For the sake of discussion, let's say that they were victims of false information. Poor babies.

An Iraqi spokesman from the Iraqi exile group was interviewed recently on TV as he spoke on details of how and why they produced and fed false information to the United States and the media. Bush took the bait and as a result, Saddam Hussein, his two sons, and some past al-Qaeda leaders in Iraq are now history.

They couldn't verify anything before invading a nation? We were in the neighborhood with a HUGE military force and this extreme urgency to invade Iraq happens? All too convenient.

They could have verified beforehand, however, there were those who wanted Saddam Hussein out of the picture permanently, and not just the folks in Washington either. As I have mentioned earlier, WMD was eventually found in Iraq.

[lightly]

ok i'll bite, If you would.... what WMD's were found... where and when? I began my participation in this thread talking about the MUSHROOM CLOUD speeches made by members of the Bush administration... and other promoters of the Iraq invasion. Did they find any nuclear Bombs???????????? Or the means to get one here in the air???? NO.

I remember all the hoopla about "aluminum tubes".. possibly from africa.. possibly usable in a centrifuge... OYA! that proved .... NOTHING.

Once again... from the link you provided:

In fact, many of the allegations came from the same half-dozen defectors, weren't confirmed by other intelligence and were hotly disputed by intelligence professionals at the CIA, the Defense Department and the State Department.

Nevertheless, U.S. officials and others who supported a pre-emptive invasion quoted the allegations in statements and interviews without running afoul of restrictions on classified information or doubts about the defectors' reliability.

Bush didn't "take the bait" as you say.... He , and his co conspirators, were the ones doing the fishing!!! Now you twist and turn the tale bringing up something about others who wanted Saddam gone. If someone else wanted him gone.. why didn't they handle it?

the Bushites created Conspiracy theories regarding Iraq/Saddam.. Did they like them? .. i guess so.. they worked! ..speaking of Work ... i gotta go.

*

Edited July 16, 2013 by lightly

[lightly]

ok i'll bite, If you would.... what WMD's were found... where and when?

*

As usual i'm fairly ignorant of such details.. so i googled around a little and learned that the WMDs found thus far [sarin and mustard gas] were produced in the 1980s for use in the Iraq/Iran War. Which makes me wonder which ally of Iraq's in that war supplied the chemical weapons ?

Anyway , apparently by the time of the Bush 2 invasion those agents had degraded to a point where they were practically worthless .

http://www.defense.gov/News/NewsArticle.aspx?ID=15918

The munitions addressed in the report were produced in the 1980s, Maples said. Badly corroded, they could not currently be used as originally intended, Chu added.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/22/AR2006062201475.html

But intelligence officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the subject's sensitive nature, said the weapons were produced before the 1991 Gulf War and there is no evidence to date of chemical munitions manufactured since then. They said an assessment of the weapons concluded they are so degraded that they couldn't now be used as designed.

They probably would have been intended for chemical attacks during the Iran-Iraq War, said David Kay, who headed the U.S. weapons-hunting team in Iraq from 2003 until early 2004.

He said experts on Iraq's chemical weapons are in "almost 100 percent agreement" that sarin nerve agent produced from the 1980s would no longer be dangerous.

"It is less toxic than most things that Americans have under their kitchen sink at this point," Kay said.

And any of Iraq's 1980s-era mustard would produce burns, but it is unlikely to be lethal, Kay said.

Asked about the potential danger to U.S. troops, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said: "They are weapons of mass destruction. They are harmful to human beings. And they have been found."

http://matei.org/ithink/2013/01/23/were-wmd-found-in-iraq-yes-on-the-battlefield-between-2004-2009-47-chemical-warfare-improvised-explosive-devices-cwied-killed-47-coalition-soldiers/

This CIA report on WMD findings in Iraq, issued in 2005, affirms that all the chemical bombs were made with weapons misplaced or forgotten on the battlefield by the Saddam regime during the Iraq-Iran war.

ISG believes the bulk of these weapons were likely abandoned, and lost during the Iran-Iraq war

because tens of thousands of CW munitions were forward deployed along frequently and rapidly shifting battlefronts. – page 1

[skyeagle409]

ok i'll bite, If you would.... what WMD's were found... where and when?

Chemical agents, some found as late as 2008, which included sarin, mustard gas and blister agents. Al-Qaeda in Iraq had planned to use chemical agents to strike Europe,and North America.

Iraq arrests five in 'al-Qaeda chemical weapons plot'

Had they been successful, no doubt conspiracy theorist would have come out in force and blamed the U.S. government for the planning of the attacks.

I began my participation in this thread talking about the MUSHROOM CLOUD speeches made by members of the Bush administration... and other promoters of the Iraq invasion. Did they find any nuclear Bombs???????????? Or the means to get one here in the air???? NO.

Looking back into history, Iraq spent $10 billion to enrich uranium. In addition, The IAEA inspections revealed seven nuclear-related sites in Iraq. The IAEA reports that all sensitive nuclear materials were removed, and that facilities and equipment were dismantled or destroyed. Activities uncovered and destroyed included:

• an industrial scale complex for Electromagnetic Isotope Separation (EMIS), a process for producing enriched uranium. The complex was designed for the installation of 90 separators; before the Gulf War, eight were functional. If all separators had been installed, the plant could have produced 15 kg of highly enriched uranium per year, possibly enough for one nuclear weapon.
  
• a large scale manufacturing and testing facility--the Al Furat Project--designed for the production of centrifuges, used in another method of uranium enrichment.
  
• facilities and equipment for the production of weapons components.
  
• computer simulations of nuclear weapons detonations
  
• storage of large quantities of HMX high explosive used in nuclear weapons.
  

Knowing Saddam's mindset and ambitions, had he been allowed to continue unimpeded, what state of security would we find the Persian Gulf today?

Edited July 17, 2013 by skyeagle409

[lightly]

Chemical agents, some found as late as 2008, which included sarin, mustard gas and blister agents. Al-Qaeda in Iraq had planned to use chemical agents to strike Europe,and North America.

Iraq arrests five in 'al-Qaeda chemical weapons plot'

Had they been successful, no doubt conspiracy theorist would have come out in force and blamed the U.S. government for the planning of the attacks.

Looking back into history, Iraq spent $10 billion to enrich uranium. In addition, The IAEA inspections revealed seven nuclear-related sites in Iraq. The IAEA reports that all sensitive nuclear materials were removed, and that facilities and equipment were dismantled or destroyed. Activities uncovered and destroyed included:

• an industrial scale complex for Electromagnetic Isotope Separation (EMIS), a process for producing enriched uranium. The complex was designed for the installation of 90 separators; before the Gulf War, eight were functional. If all separators had been installed, the plant could have produced 15 kg of highly enriched uranium per year, possibly enough for one nuclear weapon.
  
• a large scale manufacturing and testing facility--the Al Furat Project--designed for the production of centrifuges, used in another method of uranium enrichment.
  
• facilities and equipment for the production of weapons components.
  
• computer simulations of nuclear weapons detonations
  
• storage of large quantities of HMX high explosive used in nuclear weapons.
  

Knowing Saddam's mindset and ambitions, had he been allowed to continue unimpeded, what state of security would we find the Persian Gulf today?

But, he Wasn't allowed to continue unimpeded. He had no nuclear capabilities at the time of Operation Iraqi Freedom (bush 2 invasion) .. and everyone Knew it!.

Here is what the International Atomic Energy Agency has to say about Iraq's 'nuclear' capabilities In Dec. 1998 ... After Bush 1 Invasion (Dessert Storm ,which ended in Nov. 1995)

http://www.iaea.org/OurWork/SV/Invo/factsheet.html

"

As of

16 December 1998

, the following assessment could be made of Iraq's clandestine programme:

• There were no indications to suggest that Iraq was successful in its attempt to produce nuclear weapons. Iraq's explanation of its progress towards the finalisation of a workable design for its nuclear weapons was considered to be consistent with the resources and time scale indicated by the available programme documentation.
  
• Iraq was at, or close to, the threshold of success in such areas as the production of HEU through the EMIS process, the production and pilot cascading of single-cylinder sub-critical gas centrifuge machines, and the fabrication of the explosive package for a nuclear weapon
  
• There were no indications to suggest that Iraq had produced more than a few grams of weapons-grade nuclear material through its indigenous processes.
  
• There were no indications that Iraq otherwise clandestinely acquired weapons-usable material
  
• All the safeguarded research reactor fuel was verified and fully accounted for by the IAEA and removed from Iraq.
  
• There were no indications that there remains in Iraq any physical capability for the production of amounts of weapons-usable nuclear material of any practical significance.
  

So, it was well known , at the time bush and associates were making the Mushroom Cloud speeches that Iraq had ZERO nuclear capabilities. As in NONE.

That makes it obvious that they knew they were lying to us.. and , still, making up stories (conspiracy theories) about Saddam Hussein / Iraq.

I'm not the least surprised that old chemical weapons were found stashed in the dessert ... Iraq had plenty of them during the Iran/Iraq war and many were abandoned.

As for this ..

Skyeagle said: Chemical agents, some found as late as 2008, which included sarin, mustard gas and blister agents. Al-Qaeda in Iraq had planned to use chemical agents to strike Europe,and North America.

It's almost funny.... Al-Qaeda in Iraq was going to STRIKE Europe AND! North America with a bunch of degraded chemical agents? Says Who!? or said who? A picture of some men in frighteningly yellow jumpsuits , with covered heads, doesn't really convince me of anything.. and has nothing to do with what i was talking about ... The Bush Administration Conspriacy Theories .... used to TERRORIZE congress and the American People. Sometimes the truth ain't pretty.

[skyeagle409]

But, he Wasn't allowed to continue unimpeded. He had no nuclear capabilities at the time of Operation Iraqi Freedom (bush 2 invasion)

Let's take another look.

The IAEA inspections revealed seven nuclear-related sites in Iraq. The IAEA reports that all sensitive nuclear materials were removed, and that facilities and equipment were dismantled or destroyed. Activities uncovered and destroyed included:

• an industrial scale complex for Electromagnetic Isotope Separation (EMIS), a process for producing enriched uranium. The complex was designed for the installation of 90 separators; before the Gulf War, eight were functional. If all separators had been installed, the plant could have produced 15 kg of highly enriched uranium per year, possibly enough for one nuclear weapon.
  
• a large scale manufacturing and testing facility--the Al Furat Project--designed for the production of centrifuges, used in another method of uranium enrichment.
  
• facilities and equipment for the production of weapons components.
  
• computer simulations of nuclear weapons detonations
  
• storage of large quantities of HMX high explosive used in nuclear weapons.
  

Clear-cut facts that Saddam Hussein was looking to acquire nukes.

[lightly]

Let's take another look.

Clear-cut facts that Saddam Hussein was looking to acquire nukes.

Ok fine. And..as i just showed you, anything nuclear related was removed from him by the IAEA by 1998 . So what was bushco talking about MUSHROOM CLOUDS for just prior to the 2nd invasion? THAT is the point . Certainly they Knew what the IAEA knew? So... they lied.. what part of this don't you get?

[skyeagle409]

Ok fine. And..as i just showed you, anything nuclear related was removed from him by the IAEA by 1998 . So what was bushco talking about MUSHROOM CLOUDS for just prior to the 2nd invasion? THAT is the point . Certainly they Knew what the IAEA knew? So... they lied.. what part of this don't you get?

Once again, it was no secret that Saddam Hussein attempted to acquire nukes.

IRAQ'S NUCLEAR WEAPONS PROGRAM

According to former U.N. inspector David Kay, Iraq spent over $10 billion during the 1980s in an attempt to enrich uranium and build a nuclear weapon. However, the Agency concludes that as of December, 1998, "There were no indications to suggest that Iraq was successful in its attempt to produce nuclear weapons," or "that there remains in Iraq any physical capability for the production of amounts of weapons-usable nuclear material of any practical significance." However, the IAEA did find that "Iraq was at, or close to, the threshold of success in such areas as the production of [highly enriched uranium] ... and the fabrication of the explosive package for a nuclear weapon."

Despite the fact that the facilities and nuclear material had been destroyed or removed, as early as 1996 the IAEA concluded that "the know-how and expertise acquired by Iraqi scientists and engineers could provide an adequate base for reconstituting a nuclear-weapons-oriented program."

Nuclear physicist and Iraqi defector Khidhir Hamza agrees. He told FRONTLINE that Iraq did not relinquish certain critical components of the nuclear program to the inspectors, and that it retains the expertise necessary to build a nuclear weapon. He believes that Iraq may have one completed within the next couple of years.

Note: IAEA was allowed back into Iraq in January 2000 and again in January 2001. But its inspectors were blocked from full access inspections.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/etc/arsenal.html

[turbonium]

You are incorrect.

Facts are facts, so deal with it.

Why stay in denial?

[skyeagle409]

Facts are facts, so deal with it.

Why stay in denial?

Blunders are a fact of life in government circles.

George Tenet resigns as CIA director

WASHINGTON — CIA Director George Tenet has resigned as director of central intelligence for “personal reasons,” President Bush said in a surprise announcement Thursday. A government source told NBC News that the agency’s director of operations, James Pavitt, would also announce his resignation Friday.

Although the resignations were said to be unrelated, the changes will bring a significant new look at the top of the CIA, which has been under fire for the way the agency monitored terrorist activity before Sept. 11, 2001, and for intelligence failures leading up to the war in Iraq.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/5129314/ns/us_news-security/t/george-tenet-resigns-cia-director/#.Uen9wiqF_vg

Hitler's blunders aided the allies during the war. Now, the intelligence arm of Pakistan has come under fire.

Pakistan's ISI spy agency under fire for bin Laden failures

ISLAMABAD // The ease with which the US carried out the operation to kill Osama bin Laden has exploded the long-cultivated perception of the infallibility of Pakistan's military's Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) agency.

Across Pakistan on Friday and Saturday, politicians, the media, civil-society and religious activists demanded accountability of the military and its spy arms.

The calls for resignations have extended to the president, Asif Ali Zardari, and Yousaf Raza Gilani, the prime minister, but that is merely a routine sideshow in Pakistan's rhetorical polity.

Politicians called for an independent parliamentary inquiry that would, for the first time ever, require the army chief, Gen Ashfaq Pervez Kayani, and ISI boss Ahmed Shuja Pasha, to explain themselves to parliament.

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/south-asia/pakistans-isi-spy-agency-under-fire-for-bin-laden-failures#ixzz2ZYD9xy9d

[turbonium]

The blunders aren't usually rewarded. Are you too afraid to even acknowledge that fact?

[skyeagle409]

The blunders aren't usually rewarded. Are you too afraid to even acknowledge that fact?

Hitler, wasn't rewarded for his blunders either.

[Babe Ruth]

Facts are facts, so deal with it.

Why stay in denial?

Because he cannot help it. For many, if not most, cognitive dissonance and denial are involuntary--individuals have no choice and are unable to overcome it.

[skyeagle409]

Because he cannot help it. For many, if not most, cognitive dissonance and denial are involuntary--individuals have no choice and are unable to overcome it.

You can't change reality from the comfort of your keyboard.

[turbonium]

You can't change reality from the comfort of your keyboard.

Ah, so that's why you won't acknowledge the reality.

You feel powerless to change it, so you've chosen to live out your life in a fantasy-world.

A magical place - with your heroic government battling those evil Arab terrorists that 'hate your freedoms'!

[skyeagle409]

Ah, so that's why you won't acknowledge the reality.

Reality is what it is; Reality.

You feel powerless to change it, so you've chosen to live out your life in a fantasy-world.

Present evidence of a government 911 conspiracy and we will see who truly lives in a world of fantasy.

A magical place - with your heroic government battling those evil Arab terrorists that 'hate your freedoms'!

So, you now admit that "evil Arab terrorist" were responsible after all, which explains the following message from Osama bin Laden.

Bin Laden Admits 9/11 Responsibility, Warns of More Attacks

A tape aired by Al-Jazeera television Friday showed al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden admitting for the first time that he orchestrated the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks and saying the United States could face more.

http://www.pbs.org/n...n_10-29-04.html

Edited July 21, 2013 by skyeagle409