Roswell UFO and bodies taken to Carswell base

[psyche101]

One of those men made a career of it, and for a period of time was flying B-29 post war. That man, on his deathbed in the 1990s, and in the presence of my friend, revealed that he had taken an oath of silence, and that oath could be lawfully forgiven on one's deathbed.

Is there an "Oath" one can take in the USAF, or is it a Non Disclosure agreement?

Did not the alleged threats for breaking oaths include family members?

But They were Green right ? Its the Color of money here payche101 !

Mate, I do not know about Aliens being green but this stuff sure is

[psyche101]

I have never personally participated in such an oath, but I have read that many oaths of silence are forgiven on one's deathbed. That you have not heard of such an oath is a personal problem. Sorry.

You "heard of this" so it is fact is it? Is that supposed to be your supporting proof?

No, it is your problem. You always do this. You make some wild claim and then say "well that's how it is, of you do not believe me, ask me again so I can tell you again."

What the hell is that crap Babe Ruth? You made the claim, back your own words. What regulation would refer to the specifics of such an oath? Can you offer anything more than your say so?

Man, you are the soapbox KING. No proof, no specifics, no facts, but plenty to say!

Edited May 2, 2013 by psyche101

[psyche101]

And you know this how?

What's the point of loadmasters then?

[quillius]

Hey quillius,

A week before Roswell after Ken Arnolds sighting Gen. Ramey and his intel chief were all over the news papers saying things like "we are not being invaded by men from Mars".

ok thanks LS.....I assume after this the next mention was then around 1977, right? didnt you trace this back to a newspaper/magazine article from that year?

[quillius]

Gidday Mate

I cannot say I recommend delving into the Roswell tale, I do personally believe it is an example of the very worst UFOlogy has to offer.

I assume that you mean when was the first clam of alien bodies that was associated with the Roswell crash emerged?

I think it was actually 1976 when Friedman and Moore banged their heads together and cooked this up, they appeared in print in 1980. Here is a time line of when Aliens were introduced and where:

Legend -

The story as told in the 1980 book describes the crash of an alien ship on a ranch northwest of Roswell. What follows is a tabulation of events or "facts" from the story as related by Charles Ziegler in UFO Crash at Roswell. There are several versions of the story as it evolved over time. The sources are books written by UFOlogists.

• 1980: The Roswell Incident by Berlitz and Moore
  
• 1988: Derived from documents known as MJ-12 (later proved to be forged)
  
• 1991: UFO Crash at Roswell by Randle and Schmitt
  
• 1992: Crash at Corona by Friedman and Berliner
  
• 1994: The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell by Randle and Schmitt
  
• (1994b): Report written by Karl Pflock
  

Time line

Alien bodies are found.

• (1980) The archaeologists who found the wrecked saucer also found alien bodies. They were humanoid and about 4 feet tall. The military search party arrived shortly after, expecting to find an airplane crash.
  
• (1988) The military searchers conducted an aerial search and located four alien bodies about 2 miles east of the crash site. They were small humanoids.
  
• (1991) On July 8, aerial searching located four alien bodies about 2 miles southeast. They were humanoid and about 4 feet tall.
  
• (1992) On July 8, aerial searching located four alien bodies about 2 miles southeast. They were encased in some kind of escape capsule.
  
• (1994) The archaeologists found the remains of the spaceship and four alien bodies. The aliens were humanoid and about 4 feet tall.
  
• (1994b) The bodies of three dead aliens were found with the wreckage of their ship.
  

The bodies are first reported at San Augustin, then near Roswell. Also - Grady Barnett appears twice in parties of archaeologists. He is supposedly at the San Augustin and Roswell crash sites at the same time! Barnett is discarded from the story in 1994.

LINK

morning Pscyhe, thanks for the post, it lays that out nicely.

I appreciate the warning/recomendation but I think if I can have a little delve then any questions that arise will probably already have an answer.....

What would be good is to really bring Lost Shamans hypothesis to the forefront with its own thread. Maybe this is where discussion needs to focus.

[psyche101]

morning Pscyhe, thanks for the post, it lays that out nicely.

I appreciate the warning/recomendation but I think if I can have a little delve then any questions that arise will probably already have an answer.....

What would be good is to really bring Lost Shamans hypothesis to the forefront with its own thread. Maybe this is where discussion needs to focus.

Gidday Mate

Most welcome, glad to be of help

I just get a little miffed at how this steaming pile of Horse Hockey gets a front page when real conundrums like Portage County have to take a back seat.

But, as you say, hopeful we can get Lost Shamans Hypothesis put up where it belongs, head and shoulders over the typical banter. I still do not know what that clip in the OP is supposed to prove, but I am keen to get back to those Braille Tee Shirts.

[quillius]

Gidday Mate

Most welcome, glad to be of help

I just get a little miffed at how this steaming pile of Horse Hockey gets a front page when real conundrums like Portage County have to take a back seat.

But, as you say, hopeful we can get Lost Shamans Hypothesis put up where it belongs, head and shoulders over the typical banter. I still do not know what that clip in the OP is supposed to prove, but I am keen to get back to those Braille Tee Shirts.

Gidday, I guess the reason why Portage county doesnt make front page is that at the end of the day 'it was just a light in the sky....or lets say craft' , Roswell however (at least since the introduction of aliens whenever that was) is more than a light..its eitehr ET or it isnt....no maybes here IMO.

but yes I did notice those fantastic Braille Tee shirts

[psyche101]

Gidday, I guess the reason why Portage county doesnt make front page is that at the end of the day 'it was just a light in the sky....or lets say craft' , Roswell however (at least since the introduction of aliens whenever that was) is more than a light..its eitehr ET or it isnt....no maybes here IMO.

but yes I did notice those fantastic Braille Tee shirts

LOL, you trying to swing me there? I see that little "craft" snuck in there, damn hit my soft spot that one did. Can't say either way on Portage. But I disagree, Roswell was nothing more than a Balloon until Friedman got involved. For 30 years it was ignored. If someone made up some aliens for Portage County too, it would still be a better story that has no explanation, unlike Roswell.

What Roswell be is a prime example of the way the media can manipulate the public, public fevor, how BS artists can exploit a tale, how a tale can be stretched, and how gullible people really are. It is the worst that UFOlogy has to offer. If I had two cases, say Pascagoula and Roswell, and I was told by an alien one is true, and was asked to pick one, it would not be a competition and it would not be Roswell.

The worst part about Roswell is the believers are largely not even aware of the documents from the time frame. They just spew out the media versions all the time.

I need some dark sunnies I think. (b The Barille idea is pure gold.

Edited May 2, 2013 by psyche101

[quillius]

LOL, you trying to swing me there? I see that little "craft" snuck in there, damn hit my soft spot that one did. Can't say either way on Portage. But I disagree, Roswell was nothing more than a Balloon until Friedman got involved. For 30 years it was ignored. If someone made up some aliens for Portage County too, it would still be a better story that has no explanation, unlike Roswell.

What Roswell be is a prime example of the way the media can manipulate the public, public fevor, how BS artists can exploit a tale, how a tale can be stretched, and how gullible people really are. It is the worst that UFOlogy has to offer. If I had two cases, say Pascagoula and Roswell, and I was told by an alien one is true, and was asked to pick one, it would not be a competition and it would not be Roswell.

The worst part about Roswell is the believers are largely not even aware of the documents from the time frame. They just spew out the media versions all the time.

I need some dark sunnies I think. (b The Barille idea is pure gold.

lol I thought you werent looking hence the 'sneaky craft'......eyes in the back of your head obviously...

What I was trying to say about Roswell is that it has to be aliens or not. And if it 'IS' aliens then the evidence must exist. Where as Pascagoula, Portage etc etc even if true cannot have any evidence to support it...at least the sort of evidence that would make it a known fact.

(did you like the 'etc etc' ? I thought it was more subtle than the craft trick)

[Babe Ruth]

I was asking about how these oaths work precisely because I haven't worked in the US military. I was making no claims about how things work, I was asking about how such things work.

Does the US military (or is it certain branches of the military) have a formal rule, an informal rule or a clause put into certain oaths about people who agree not to disclose certain information? Does it depend on what they disclose on their deathbed? I'm genuine curious to know.

Another thing, perhaps someone in the US military can answer this, do they actually take an oath, or is it more like the kind of non-disclosure agreement that people who work on certain things are required to sign?

No, it's not really a personal problem (what a strange thing to suggest). It's just a question I want an answer to. Perhaps someone else on this website who is familiar with how these things work in the US military can provide me with an answer.

It doesn't actually answer the question as to why the pilot would be told that there was alien bodies in a box on the flight he was piloting. There may well be a good reason, but on the surface, it seems unnecessary and adds an extra potential security hole by providing secretive information to someone who has no need to know it. I'm only asking. If you don't want to answer, don't, but there's no need for the snarky attitude.

Apologies for being flip with you. Many posters on this ET & UFO Phenom thread insinuate personal insults, and I mistook your post and intentions. Sorry.

I have taken only 2 oaths in my life, one in the military when I was commissioned in the Army, and the other regarding initiation into the Knights of Columbus. The former to protect and defend the US Constitution, which all soldiers take, and the latter an oath of secrecy. So, my experience with oaths is rather limited.

Having served in the military, not in the Navy, I became familiar with the slogan "loose lips sink ships", and the general idea of secrecy. Cannot remember exactly where, but I have heard of the notion that any oath of secrecy MAY BE forgiven upon one's deathbed. Of course many deaths are sudden and unexpected, so there is no deathbed. But I think the general idea of deathbed confessions is fairly common through history.

The idea that the captain of an aircraft knows what his cargo is, is standard fare for the most part, even in the military, perhaps especially in the military. Hence the oath. And that would apply to the entire crew, not just the captain.

[psyche101]

lol I thought you werent looking hence the 'sneaky craft'......eyes in the back of your head obviously...

As a disciple of Uncle Phil, nothing else would do!

What I was trying to say about Roswell is that it has to be aliens or not. And if it 'IS' aliens then the evidence must exist. Where as Pascagoula, Portage etc etc even if true cannot have any evidence to support it...at least the sort of evidence that would make it a known fact.

Not. 100% absolutely not. This one I am sure of. I cannot falsify Lost Shamans Hypothesis, I hit him with quite a number of questions, and came up empty handed. I would strongly suggest on that focus, and seeing if you can poke a hole in it. I cannot. It's quite a fascinating read.

(did you like the 'etc etc' ? I thought it was more subtle than the craft trick)

I cannot entirely disagree with it be my bugbear, I'd love to see if an artefact could be recovered from the Maury Island incident. Even after all this time.

Edited May 3, 2013 by psyche101

[psyche101]

Apologies for being flip with you. Many posters on this ET & UFO Phenom thread insinuate personal insults, and I mistook your post and intentions. Sorry.

When you assault and attack logic, common sense and fact, surely you expect some objection.

What about my questions regarding oaths, loadmasters etc? Are they insults are they?

[DONTEATUS]

Did Babe Ruth say he was a Free Mason ? Or gave an Oath to the Knights of Mcee-Dee`s ? I missed that part in the I was a Jack of all trades talk a few million post back !

[lost_shaman]

Hey quillius,

Well maybe, thats technically true but its intersting to me that two and a half years later in early 1950 Fraknk Scully had a book published "Behind the Flying Saucers" that is basically the very same "Roswell" crashed Alien recovery story that we all know today. Scully named the wrong town in New Mexico otherwise its really the same story. He uses some intesting articals and references from the time (1947-1949) and he makes a case that the AAF found crahed Aliens in New Mexico. But he's been blown off and largely ignored, two men he featured as informants in his book were exposed as conmen shortly after the Book was published. No-one associates this with Roswell but its the same story!

Thats too much of a coincidence for me; I obviously can't falsify my own hypothesis, so if the actual Roswell events were an intel operation conducted against the Press then Frank Scully's Book would fit right in line with that. This was not long after BlueBook(BB) was established and it gave BB the oppertunity (at a Press conference) to laugh at Scully for the insiuation that the Air Force recovered crahed Aliens in New Mexico in 1947!

Another thing thats interesting about this Book is that for some reason it gets ignored as being the basis for the little Aliens we think of as the "greys". They disappeared for 27 years until 1977 when Roswell was resurected. Is that a coincide too? Or did Roswell just get more interesting?

[quillius]

As a disciple of Uncle Phil, nothing else would do!

to be honest if I was to report a UFO I am not certain who I would rather 'destroy interview' me...you or Phil?

Not. 100% absolutely not. This one I am sure of. I cannot falsify Lost Shamans Hypothesis, I hit him with quite a number of questions, and came up empty handed. I would strongly suggest on that focus, and seeing if you can poke a hole in it. I cannot. It's quite a fascinating read.

Agreed, the focus will definitely be focused around the LS hypothesis. I will focus soley on Roswell for a while to get my head around the timelines and stories etc, then maybe, if LS is interested, we should start a thread dedicated to the Hypothesis. Have it laid out nicely then let people fire away. I would even suggest we try and get some others involved like Tim and Anthony. I wonder if either of them has looked at the hypothesis, and if so what were their thoughts?

I cannot entirely disagree with it be my bugbear, I'd love to see if an artefact could be recovered from the Maury Island incident. Even after all this time.

Hey quillius,

Well maybe, thats technically true but its intersting to me that two and a half years later in early 1950 Fraknk Scully had a book published "Behind the Flying Saucers" that is basically the very same "Roswell" crashed Alien recovery story that we all know today. Scully named the wrong town in New Mexico otherwise its really the same story. He uses some intesting articals and references from the time (1947-1949) and he makes a case that the AAF found crahed Aliens in New Mexico. But he's been blown off and largely ignored, two men he featured as informants in his book were exposed as conmen shortly after the Book was published. No-one associates this with Roswell but its the same story!

Thats too much of a coincidence for me; I obviously can't falsify my own hypothesis, so if the actual Roswell events were an intel operation conducted against the Press then Frank Scully's Book would fit right in line with that. This was not long after BlueBook(BB) was established and it gave BB the oppertunity (at a Press conference) to laugh at Scully for the insiuation that the Air Force recovered crahed Aliens in New Mexico in 1947!

Another thing thats interesting about this Book is that for some reason it gets ignored as being the basis for the little Aliens we think of as the "greys". They disappeared for 27 years until 1977 when Roswell was resurected. Is that a coincide too? Or did Roswell just get more interesting?

thanks for the heads up, I really will try and get to grips with your hypothesis and the Roswell story.

personally I always find that coincidence is the best place to start an investigation

[mcrom901]

hi LS, good to see you posting again

i have read your posts and would like to clarify a few things re the roswell timelines... you have suggested that t2 played up the press with rawins at least a couple of days prior to the actual claim/denial re roswell, that is indeed a coincidence, but how do you account for the debris....

On June 14, 1947, William Brazel, a foreman working on the Foster homestead , noticed strange clusters of debris approximately 30 miles (50 km) north of Roswell, New Mexico. This date—or "about three weeks" before July 8—appeared in later stories featuring Brazel, but the initial press release from the Roswell Army Air Field (RAAF) said the find was "sometime last week," suggesting Brazel found the debris in early July.^[1]

i would also like to hear your thoughts concerning the 'recovered' debris, we know the ones in ramey's office were staged, so, what is the missing link?

[lost_shaman]

Right on quilius, I only thought about UFOs after I had a close encounter sighting! Roswell isnt a sighting so I was never interested. A friend actually "dared" me to look at Roswell and argue a case. So I started making a "Devil's advocate" case for Roswell being crashed Aliens.

Im glad that I examined Roswell. It has led me to propose an alternate view of the events. Even if im wrong the experience of proposing something different and defending that position has proven to be well worth the Time and Effort I have put into it.

[quillius]

Right on quilius, I only thought about UFOs after I had a close encounter sighting! Roswell isnt a sighting so I was never interested. A friend actually "dared" me to look at Roswell and argue a case. So I started making a "Devil's advocate" case for Roswell being crashed Aliens.

Im glad that I examined Roswell. It has led me to propose an alternate view of the events. Even if im wrong the experience of proposing something different and defending that position has proven to be well worth the Time and Effort I have put into it.

ok, I did always think of you more as a chemistry/biology kind of guy.....but I guess once you experience something like you did.....you must try and find the answer (even if just for sanity)

[Tim Hebert]

Quillius:

Agreed, the focus will definitely be focused around the LS hypothesis. I will focus soley on Roswell for a while to get my head around the timelines and stories etc, then maybe, if LS is interested, we should start a thread dedicated to the Hypothesis. Have it laid out nicely then let people fire away. I would even suggest we try and get some others involved like Tim and Anthony. I wonder if either of them has looked at the hypothesis, and if so what were their thoughts

I have yet to see LS's hypothesis, but would like LS to start a new thread, if he's willing, to discuss it. Pysche appears intrigued by it, so I'm definitely interested. Whether Bragalia would be interested is an open question.

I read Rich Reynold's Ufo Iconoclasts site this morning, he has a new article posted that should be of interest to the Roswell crowd. In the comments section, Rich alludes that Tony, and others on the Randle team, having definitive information that the Brazel weather balloon senario was a cover story for the "real" event that happened in another separate location. Same story, different twist? Has this not been proposed by other UFO researchers? Reynolds tends to believe that this is a totally different (credible?) scenario that has never been discussed, at least that's how I read his comment.

Best Regards,

Tim

[lost_shaman]

Hey Tim,

Would that be any different that what Frank Scully claimed in 1950? He beliieved his book was non-fiction that the AAF recovered crashed Aliens in a different part of New Mexico in 1947.

[Tim Hebert]

Hey Tim,

Would that be any different that what Frank Scully claimed in 1950? He beliieved his book was non-fiction that the AAF recovered crashed Aliens in a different part of New Mexico in 1947.

LS, didn't Scully write about a crash near Aztec, NM that happened in 1948? This was proved as a hoax involving two individuals that relayed the story to Scully, at least from what I've briefly read about the incident.

[lost_shaman]

That is why he was blown off at the time and forgotten. Becuase he had included those men in his book, but its still the exact same story as the Roswell story more or less. with the small Aliens and thier indestructable materials.

[Tim Hebert]

That is why he was blown off at the time and forgotten. Becuase he had included those men in his book, but its still the exact same story as the Roswell story more or less. with the small Aliens and thier indestructable materials.

You have a valid point about the similarities of the two claims. The major difference is the date of both incidents...one year apart. I believe that the Ramseys wrote a book, published about a year ago, that re-opened interest in the Aztec case.

How does this fit in with your hypothesis? When you have the time, would you elaborate?

[lost_shaman]

mcrom,

The alleged debris is an aspect I didnt pursue very deeply because RAWINs were turning up in Ohio around Write field before Mack Brazel came forward. if he had found a crashed Alien space craft he probably wouldnt have picked up a bit of it and waited a few day (weeks) until he needed to go to town to stop by ans show it to the Sheriff. What he did alledgedly bring to town seems rather unremakable. but the story goes that the sheriff called the AAF. After that there arfe anecdotes and more RAWIN targets.

[DONTEATUS]

Its really a mute case now,afterall Look at the time thats gone by ? No way In H*** to get the facts today. And the AAF,B.S.is something that will never be brought to the Light of day !

In my book of facts there are no facts. ITs all Hear say now.

So one should just revert to default Logic,That being It has not changed a signal thing has it ? No proof,no facts, Nada !